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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Violence in Syria; The Palin E-Mails
Aired June 10, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
Tonight: "Keeping Them Honest." A regime that doesn't just torture and murder its own people, doesn't just shoot them down in the streets -- tonight, a regime that continues to arrest its children, torturing them and murdering them, the regime of Bashar al-Assad in Syria. They try to hide their crimes by keeping reporters out, but the videos continue to emerge.
This is what Syrian soldiers do to helpless handcuffed prisoners. This is what Syrian soldiers do to a helpless elderly man. This is what the regime does to its people who are protesting, video from today from a Damascus suburb.
Right now, Syrian soldiers and government thugs are on the brink of exacting bloody retribution on an entire city. And their leader, Bashar al-Assad is, according to the prime minister of neighboring Turkey, taking all this, in his words, very lightly.
So, tonight, for whatever it's worth and for whoever can do something about it, we want to show you the truth of what is happening in Syria. The pictures are hard to look at, I know, but people are risking their lives to take these images. They are dying so that you and I may know the truth.
This is exclusive video, new video of a recent protest, a peaceful protest in northern Syria photographed by a dissident who managed to escape to Turkey, thousands of unarmed men, and then gunfire, chaos, and carnage, the massacre neither the first nor the last. They appear to be escalating, in fact.
Today, not far from where this happened, reports of helicopter gunships firing on protesters. Now, we can't independently confirm this, but you can clearly hear machine gun fire coming from the helicopter and reaction from someone on the ground.
And not far from there, the Syrian military has launched an operation on the border city of Jisr Al-Shugur. The regime has been promising punishment on the city after 120 security forces were killed there several days ago, it says, by armed thugs. Refugees refute that, saying some of the troops rebelled after refusing to fire on civilians.
In any case, Syrian forces have been marching toward the town, reported burning fields and firing on anything and anyone in their path. We have no video of it yet because the Syrian government is keeping the media out. But we do have new video tonight of the swelling refugee camps over the Turkish border.
That's what you're looking at right now. And these unfortunate Syrians may in fact be the lucky ones. A Western correspondent near the camp says refugees are telling her the Syrian regime tried to stop them from leaving, holding its own people captive and worse, much worse.
This is the body of Tamer Al Sharei, returned to his family after a month in captivity. Like all amateur video, we can't independently verify it, in part because Syria won't allow us in. Tamer's body is missing an eye and several teeth, we're told. His family says his leg and neck was broken. He was kneecapped as well, shot not to kill, but to inflict excruciating pain. Tamer was just 15 years old.
He was reportedly arrested on the same rally attended by Hamza al-Khatib. This is Hamza's body. Hamza showed signs of beatings, gunshots, and gunshots wounds, cigarette burns over his body and his penis was cut off. Hamza was only 13 years old.
He and Tamer and others taken, tortured, murdered and then weeks later returned to their families, not so parents can mourn and bury them, but as a tool of terror, as a warning to others: Toe the line or we will take your kids.
Days after Hamza was returned, signs that, in that respect, terror works. His father and uncle appeared on Syrian state TV, full of praise for the dictator, Bashar Assad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What can I say? Best president ever. Thank God he gave us everything we have ever asked for. The first thing is, the president promised us reforms. And, God willing, they will come soon, tomorrow or the day after. I mean, these reforms are for the citizens. And they have been well-received.
And we were very happy with the president. The president is very close to the people. And he has offered them a lot. And he has said, God willing, he will give even more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Later on, a family member who we are not naming told us that the family was threatened to make those statements.
That's what terror does. It no longer works, though, against everyone all the time. This is a funeral march for Tamer, hundreds taking part, just as thousands of others do all across Syria, men, women, and children. It's hard to watch, and no wonder. who will be the next person to fall? Who will be the next child taken?
This week, Amnesty International came out with the chilling testimony of a former member of Syria's elite Republican Guard. He and his unit got the orders on April 23 to confront a violent gang. What they found, he says, was something else, not a violent gang, but around 2,000 unarmed protesters, including women and children, chanting, "Peaceful, peaceful."
Those were the words the protesters were speaking. What he then witnessed, he says, was a massacre. He could not stop it. He could not take part. He and five others threw down their weapons, he says. He is now on the run facing a death sentence for desertion.
But he is the exception. As we said at the top, the people of Jisr Al-Shugur now wait for word on their town's fate at the hands of Syrian forces. The refugees continue to pour across. Almost 30 years ago, the dictator Bashar al-Assad's father, Hafez al-Assad, faced a rebellion from the Muslim Brotherhood. He handled it by leveling the city of Hama, killing anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 people, history written in blood, history repeating itself every day in Syria.
Tonight, the White House issued a statement: "The United States strongly condemns the Syrian government's outrageous use of violence across Syria today, and particularly in the northwestern region. There must be an immediate end to the brutality and violence."
Earlier, I spoke by Internet phone with human rights activist, dissident and fugitive in her own country Razan Zaitouneh. We almost didn't manage it. The regime has been shutting down Internet service, trying to keep word from getting out of the country. We lost the connection shortly before the conversation and lost it soon after, but we managed to find a narrow window to talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Razan, we now have seen another video of another young boy allegedly tortured and mutilated by security forces. His name was Tamer Al Sharei. Do you know what happened to him?
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH, SYRIAN ACTIVIST: Tamer was arrested the same day when Hamza was arrested. He was disappeared, the same circumstances like Hamza. Nobody knew where he was until about a few days ago, when his body was delivered to his family.
He was tortured awfully. He was shot in his eye. His neck was broken. He was burned with cigarette on all his body. He was shot in his two hands and two legs. Every few day, we have a new person, new detainee who was in detention. His body is delivered to his family, was dead under torture. So it's happening all the time.
COOPER: So they want people to see what they have done to these kids, to adults, to people who they have tortured, to scare people?
ZAITOUNEH: It's a message. It's a message of revenge, of hatred to make people more scared about their sons, about their children, about their beloved people, not to go on in their revolution.
COOPER: The regime, of course, denies this, says these kids were -- if they got shot, they got shot by armed gangs during protests, which, A., there is no evidence of, and, also, it's important to remember that all of this began in Daraa with the arrest of children who were graffitiing signs against the regime. So all of this began when the regime started snatching children.
ZAITOUNEH: That's right, because the regime doesn't want to take the responsibility for it -- for the crimes, the security commit -- they commit these crimes, and then they come on the official media and deny these -- these crimes.
COOPER: I have also seen now a video of what looks like Syrian soldiers kicking and beating an elderly man who is on his knees defenseless. I was amazed that they would -- that the soldiers would shoot this video, and that this would get out, that they would want this to be seen.
ZAITOUNEH: You will be surprised that most of these videos, the soldiers and the security members themselves, they sell it for money. They don't feel it's -- that they are committing the crimes. They even don't care about the regime itself. They -- they just give it for money.
COOPER: Amnesty International says that Syrian soldiers are being told to fire on unarmed protesters. We have certainly seen this in video after video.
But they have actually interviewed most recently one Syrian soldier who was able to escape who refused to fire on civilians. Are there many soldiers who are refusing to fire?
ZAITOUNEH: Everywhere, in every city, dozens of soldiers refuse to participate in attacking the cities and shooting the people. And, as a result, they were killed. Until now, we have about 300 names of soldiers got killed before -- because of that.
COOPER: Have you heard any word from your husband who was arrested and has disappeared?
ZAITOUNEH: No, I heard nothing about him. I just heard some rumors that he got tortured very badly, and he is in very bad situation. I don't know if it's just messages by the authority for me to put more pressure on me. Or I really don't know.
How are you able to keep going? How are you able to stay strong and optimistic?
ZAITOUNEH: I see the freedom very close. I can't wait to see it really and to feel it really. So, it is -- we just -- just continue, just go on until we reach there. We're all -- we're almost there.
COOPER: Razan Zaitouneh, stay strong. Thank you for being with us.
ZAITOUNEH: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Just imagine the courage of that woman to speak out. Her husband has already been taken, already been arrested. She says she is getting word maybe he is being tortured. Likely, he is. And yet she still is willing to speak to us every single night to reveal what is happening.
She is on the run. She is hiding for her life right now. And yet she continues to speak out. It's extraordinary.
As we said, reporters aren't allowed into Syria.
Ivan Watson joins us now from just over the border in Turkey.
Ivan, the video we showed earlier, thousands of men peacefully walking down a long road through what looks like orchards, and then getting fired on, you got that video for us. How did you get it?
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This was an activist who came across the border Thursday night, Anderson, smuggled himself across the border into Turkey, and shared that with us.
We spoke with him. He described the security forces basically mowing people down. And you can see that in this video. He challenged any Syrian official to claim that these activists had weapons, saying they didn't even carry knives. They even kept their flagpoles short.
And then he said he was going back into Syria to participate in protests after Friday prayers. We spoke to him a couple of hours ago. They had those protests, and he said security forces once again opened fire on the thousands of people who were demonstrating against Bashar al-Assad's regime, and even opened fire from helicopters.
He said he was shot in the right thigh. He was talking to us from a friend's house. He was too scared to go to a hospital because he fears Assad security forces could try to arrest him there.
COOPER: And, Ivan, that's a well-based fear. We have heard repeatedly from people that, basically, that you can't go to a hospital if you get injured, because security forces will come to the hospital, and they will take you.
They're even taking the bodies of the dead because they don't want a funeral to be held for someone that they have killed, because that might create more protests.
WATSON: Listen, Anderson, if you want any evidence of what the Syrian government is doing, just look at the hospitals here in Turkey, where there are scores of Syrian refugees, people who have fled their own country with bullet wounds, with shrapnel wound, and they have come to a neighboring country for treatment in their hospitals because they're afraid to be in their own country.
Not only that -- more than 3,800 people, most of them fled to Turkey in just the last couple of days. And they're all telling the same story again and again. The Turkish authorities aren't letting us meet with them directly. They are terrified that their own government is trying to butcher them.
And we look at videos like the one that this brave man shared with us, who is now laying in bed, I guess, with a bullet in his thigh. It's -- I mean, the evidence kind of laying right in front of us. We were hearing from refugees and activists across the border claims on Thursday -- Friday, rather, that the Syrian security forces were riding through villages, firing their tank cannons, and setting fire to wheat fields.
Last night our time, late at night Friday night, as we were driving back, we saw something burning in the distance. I asked our driver, is that Syria? He said yes. It looked like a field on fire -- allegations that the Syrian military forces are setting fire to the very fields that these people rely on for food, for sustenance.
COOPER: And what -- how many people have now come across the border? And what happens to them?
WATSON: More than 3,800 so far. The Turks now are erecting a third refugee camp to deal with this influx. They feel many more will come across the border.
The Turks have been helping these people, bussing them, basically, from the border to these refugee camps, one of them in an abandoned tobacco factory in a Turkish border town here. They're providing them with tents, with food, with water, with medical care as well.
What is strange is that the Turks seem very uncomfortable with the media getting anywhere near these refugees. And, Friday night, refugees were protesting in that camp, a camp of more than 1,500 people. They were chanting, "Down with the regime." There was a man crying because he had heard that his brothers had been killed in this town of Maritz Onoman (ph).
And then the Turks put up plastic barriers to block us from being able to see these refugees. Another one saying he was going to good on a hunger strike because everybody -- because of the massacres going on in his town -- a lot of terrified Syrians who want the rest of the world to know about the butchery that is going on in their country right now.
COOPER: Ivan, I'm glad you're there on the border. Thank you for reporting for us tonight.
There are a lot of, we know, Syrians inside Syria who are watching this broadcast and who continue to watch it. So I'm glad we're able to give some information about what has happened to their fellow countrymen who have crossed over into Turkey.
Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. You can follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. I will be tweeting tonight.
Up next: more than 24,000 pages of e-mails taking us inside Sarah Palin's time as governor, including one e-mail where she actually praises candidate Barack Obama just weeks before she started not praising him.
Also tonight: striking testimony as to how the prosecution thinks little Caylee Anthony died. Will it actually persuade the jury that duct tape was part of the murder weapon? Can they tie it to Caylee's mom? That's the other question.
First, let's also check in with Isha Sesay -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, you have probably heard about comedian and "30 Rock" star Tracy Morgan's homophobic rant. Well, tonight, we will tell you about his apology and reaction to it, including from his bosses at NBC. That's coming up on A.C. 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, tonight: the e-mails of Sarah Palin. These are 24,000 pages of e-mails from Sarah Palin's half term as governor of Alaska. It took official requests from six news agencies, including CNN, to get Alaska to give them up.
We have been going through them, and so have many news organizations. And, so far, there are really no big blockbusters. They record her frustration with questions about her family's state- paid travel, efforts to link a figure in a state corruption scandal to her defeated predecessor, plenty of messages about the media focus on her family -- an official at her PAC saying they show a very engaged governor being the CEO of her state.
But this e-mail did stick out, August 2008 -- quote -- "He gave a great speech this morn in Michigan, mentioned Alaska" -- he being candidate Barack Obama -- "stole our energy rebate $1,000 check idea, stole our TC-Alaska gasoline line talking points, et cetera." She adds: "We need to take advantage of this, write a statement saying he's right on -- right on."
And here is a portion of the speech that she was e-mailing about at the time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AUGUST 2008)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe we should give every working family in America a $1,000 energy rebate, and we should pay for it with part of the record profits that the oil companies are making right now.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Over the next five years, we should also lease more of the National Petroleum Reserve in Alaska for oil and gas production. And we should also tap more of our substantial natural gas reserves and work with the Canadian government to finally build the Alaska natural gas pipeline, delivering clean natural gas and creating good jobs in the process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, again, for the most part, she liked the speech. That was before she was involved with the race, August 4. Three weeks later, John McCain chose her to be his running mate, and from there on out, candidate Obama and later President Obama could do no right. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: Our opponents say again and again that drilling will not solve all of America's energy problems. The fact that drilling won't solve, though, every problem is no excuse to do nothing at all. We will drill, baby, drill.
Barack Obama and Senator Biden, you have said no to everything in trying to find a domestic solution to the energy crisis that we're in.
They have said no, no, no, no to the domestic solutions. There is nothing stopping us from achieving energy independence that a good old-fashioned election can't fix. Let's send the White House this message. Let's drill, baby, drill, not stall, baby, stall.
President Obama, it scares me, it saddens me that the CEO of our nation does not understand that inherent link between the conventional sources of energy that we're dependent upon and our security, our prosperity, our freedom.
There is somebody in the White House who doesn't get it. He doesn't understand the need to be energy-secure.
He is absolutely on the wrong track. It does come down to drill, baby, drill, in addition to an all-of-the-above energy policy that really is nonexistent in the Obama administration. He doesn't know what he is doing when it comes to energy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, Sarah Palin before and after.
Again, 24,000 pages of e-mails came out today.
With us now, Drew Griffin, who is in Alaska, who has been digging through them.
Drew, what was the big delay in releasing these e-mails? What was the argument to not release them?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a huge task.
Obviously, Alaska didn't want to take on the dollars that it would take to go through this search. They said they spent over a million dollars on it. And I think the delay was also that they wanted the Alaska Law Department to look individually at each of these e-mails and determine whether or not there was an attorney-client privilege or whether there was this policy privilege that they have in Alaska, which basically protects lawmakers' privacy when they're discussing policy issues, kind of de-stir -- to stir -- excuse me -- honest debate over policy issues.
So, they had legal issues for each one of these -- 2,200 or so were withheld. A lot of them that we're seeing are redacted or eliminated altogether. But that was the holdup. It was legal on Alaska government's end.
COOPER: No doubt opponents of Sarah Palin will be salivating over these things, looking at them very closely. Is there anything there that is going to give them ammunition against Sarah Palin?
GRIFFIN: You know, I think there is little minutia, stuff about the suntanning bed at the governor's mansion, or whether or not somebody is paying per diem here or there.
But, you know, overall, Anderson, I have got to tell you, the impression I have -- and I have gone bleary-eyed this afternoon reading these -- this is the Sarah Palin I was promised about when I first came up here when she was named the vice president.
This is the Sarah Palin her staff, her family, her friends, who supporters told me about, a very engaged, very smart-seeming, very kind and supportive person who is all wrapped up in the business of being the best governor she can be in Alaska. And I'm kind of scratching my head why we did not see this Sarah Palin when she was running for vice president.
COOPER: In the e-mails, is there any indication she has that she is going to be selected for vice president? Because that would be interesting just to see, as she starts to realize she is going to be vice president, just how she reacted to it.
GRIFFIN: You know what is stunning? And we're just going through those e-mails now. In fact, Kathleen Johnston just found one about going to the Republican National Convention and making plans for it.
I'm convinced now she had no idea, none, until the very end. She was talking about just her going to the convention with one staffer, no need for Todd to go; that way, Todd and Trig can stay here, and we don't have to make those travel plans.
She was actually invited on Larry King's show the night before she was to be nominated, and the topic was to talk about potential vice presidential candidates. And she was telling her staff, well, if we can squeeze it in, maybe we should do that.
It seems clear to me that she did not have any idea until the very end...
COOPER: Right.
GRIFFIN: ... at least based on the e-mails I have been reading, that she really didn't think she was going to be picked.
COOPER: Hey, Drew, very briefly, I have gotten some tweets from people saying, well, look, these are -- these are private e-mails. Why should people have the right the read these e-mails?
What is the argument for releasing them?
GRIFFIN: Well, they're -- they're not private e-mails. They -- some of them do come from Sarah Palin's private account, but she was using that private account for state business.
This -- these are e-mails between Sarah Palin and state executives, her staff, about state business. They made it very clear that those that we're not seeing, a couple of thousand or so, were very, very personal in nature.
Now, some personal ones I did see, I came across one where Willow Palin grabs her mom's BlackBerry and is arranging a playdate. And then a friend finally says, how did you get your mom's BlackBerry? It's just cute things back and forth. So there are personal e-mails. But these are e-mails that mainly relate to state business. And that's why they're being released.
COOPER: All right, Drew, appreciate it. Drew, thanks very much.
If you want to read the e-mails yourself, you can find them on CNN.com.
A quick reminder: Republican candidates and potential candidates get together Monday night for a debate. We're going to bring it to you live from New Hampshire. That's at 8:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. And we will be doing a live version of 360 from New Hampshire that night as well. So, stay tuned for that.
Still ahead: new apology from Congressman Anthony Weiner, this time to his neighbors in his New York apartment building. At least, the note has his -- has Weiner's name on it, we should say. We will tell you what it says ahead.
Plus: devastating testimony today at the Casey Anthony murder trial -- what a medical examiner said and the disturbing images the jury saw.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: A lot happening around the country and the world tonight. Isha is back with a "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the bloodiest day this month. That's from the doctor and the western Libyan city of Misrata. At least 31 people were reported killed today. And more than 150 were wounded as forces loyal to Muammar Gadhafi pounded that besieged city.
At a televised speech in NATO, outgoing U.S. defense secretary Robert Gates criticized their lies (ph), calling it fully equipped to deal with challenges and blasting member countries for what he said were shortages in military spending and political will. CIA director and defense secretary Leon Panetta is in Pakistan for his first visit since Navy SEALs raided Osama bin Laden's compound and killed the al Qaeda leader. Panetta is expected to reaffirm U.S. commitment to cooperation with Pakistan against al Qaeda.
And an old-school apology, using pen and paper. Apparently, Congressman Anthony Weiner. CNN found this note in Weiner's Queens apartment building and it read this. It says, "To our neighbors, please forgive the inconvenience of all the press outside. I am sorry for all I have done that has now impacted you. Hopefully, it will soon pass. Anthony."
Well, for those who managed to sleep through this entire week, he is, of course, Anderson, talking about his Twitter sexting scandal.
COOPER: Oh, is that what he's talking about? I didn't know.
SESAY: In case you missed it, you were under a rock or something.
COOPER: Oh, yes. Have you seen our "Shot" tonight, Isha?
SESAY: I have not.
COOPER: All right. "The Shot" tonight, it's gone viral very fast online. It was released by a guy named Robert Geoffrey. When he was nine years old back in 1991, his family took a trip, he says, to a casino in Hampton Beach, New Hampshire. At the casino they let visitors lip-synch and dance to their favorite pop song in front of a blue screen. Robert, who was 9 years old, picked Madonna's hit song "Vogue." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC: MADONNA'S "VOGUE")
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Yes, it goes on and on for the entire song. The kid, like, knew the entire dance routine from the video from the "Vogue" video. It's quite -- it's a fun video. He's 29 years old now. He posted it on his -- is it Vimeo account? Or Ve-mayo?
SESAY: I don't know. Anyone know?
COOPER: What?
Vimeo. It shows you how in touch I am.
But he says Madonna changed his life, continues to inspire him, just as she did 20 years ago. So if you want to check out the video, check it out online. It's fun to watch.
SESAY: And he can shake his hips.
COOPER: Wow, yes.
SESAY: Got some good moves.
COOPER: The amount of time he must have spent to memorize that.
Anyway, back to the serious stuff. Up next, a scuttle at the courthouse -- a fight broke out at the courthouse where the Casey Anthony murder trial is taking place. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop it, stop it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: People fighting with each other, knocking a woman down, all to get into the courtroom.
Inside the courtroom, we should tell you, new testimony about the remains of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony. The chief medical examiner testifying why she ruled Caylee's death a homicide, even though she can't say what exactly the cause of death was. It's connected to the duct tape that forensic experts say was wrapped around Caylee's mouth and nose. The latest from the trial ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: On "Crime & Punishment," chaos at the courthouse where the Casey Anthony murder trial is taking place. This morning, more than 100 were gathered for a chance to get inside to watch the testimony. Before 1 a.m., someone tried to cut the line. Police were called and removed three people. And then here is what happened at 5:30 a.m.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop it, stop it!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Goddamn it, wait!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't get this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Crazy. A woman was knocked down as people ran up to line up in a different area. She was taken away in an ambulance. Then, as the line formed again, more tension as some people were pushing and shoving each other. Only the first 50 people in the line are allowed inside the courtroom.
When testimony got underway today, the focus was once again on the skeletal remains of Casey's 2-year-old daughter Caylee. The medical examiner in the case, the chief medical examiner testified that there was no evidence of an accidental drowning, as the defense is saying, because no child should have duct tape on its face when she dies. She called it homicide.
Here's Gary Tuchman with today's developments, reporting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Casey Anthony cried in court again after graphic photos of her daughter were shown. The day after court ended early, because Casey claims she was ill after more photos were displayed.
Today the focus was on the medical examiner, who doesn't believe the defense's claim that Caylee accidentally drowned in the family pool, and her mother, panicking, decided not to tell anyone.
Dr. Jan Garavaglia's take: it never happens that way.
DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, MEDICAL EXAMINER: A hundred percent of the time, when the person finds the child, they call 911, because there is a chance that that child might live.
TUCHMAN: And that is one of the reasons she answered this question this way.
JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: Do you have an opinion as to the manner of death in this case?
GARAVAGLIA: Yes.
ASHTON: What is that opinion?
GARAVAGLIA: Homicide.
TUCHMAN: Casey Anthony went from crying to angry, grumbling to her attorneys, who weren't pleased either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the bottom line is when you say, and you place a label "homicide by indeterminate means," you're saying that circumstantial evidence to you says that it probably was a homicide?
GARAVAGLIA: Not probably. I think that is the only logical conclusion, based scientifically on some of the scientific information we have, based on observational information we have about homicides and children dying.
TUCHMAN: The medical examiner says not reporting the alleged drowning and dumping the body in the woods were key reasons for her declaration, and something even more damaging to the defense.
GARAVAGLIA: There is no child that should have duct tape on its face when it dies. There is no reason to put duct tape on the face after they die.
TUCHMAN: The prosecution is now saying the duct tape found on the skull of little Caylee was the murder weapon, that Caylee was suffocated.
This forensic anthropologist created a computer-generated video using this picture. We can't show the picture, because it includes her skull. But it shows how the duct tape could have been situated on Caylee's face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would the single piece of tape, if applied in the position shown on the video, been sufficient to have covered the nose and mouth and made breathing impossible?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TUCHMAN: Once again, the defense was upset. Upset the judge allowed the video to be played. JOSE BAEZ, CASEY'S ATTORNEY: The only reason you've shown this to this jury is because that may -- I guess it's to demonstrate that it's possible that this could have occurred.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
BAEZ: And when we say this could have occurred, I mean it's possible that a piece of duct tape could have covered her mouth and her nose?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BAEZ: When you say it's possible, it's also possible that it was not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
TUCHMAN (on camera): The duct tape is proving to be crucial evidence. Why, if little Caylee drowned, would she have duct tape on her face like a mask? Ultimately the defense will have to give a satisfactory answer to that question.
(voice-over) The heartbreaking evidence that has been put forward certainly does not help Casey Anthony. On this day, prosecutors showed a picture of Caylee with her mother, wearing the same shirt she appeared to have on her decomposed body. The shirt had the sadly ironic words "Big Trouble."
Gary Tuchman, CNN, Orlando, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Let's get more insight on today's testimony. But before we do, I do want to warn some of -- some of it's very graphic, just what we're talking about. You may find it difficult to listen to what our experts have to say.
Earlier I spoke with Jean Casarez , who's covering the trial for "In Session" on TruTV, and forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Hunter.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So Jean, you say this was a huge day for the prosecution. How come?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV'S "IN SESSION": It was because of the duct tape. The duct tape became front and center in this trial today. We heard through argument that prosecutors are going to say it was the murder weapon.
Now, duct tape was found with the skull, but it's become a triable issue of fact. The jury is going to deliberate on this. Was the duct tape over the mouth and nose of Caylee, or was the duct tape just to seal the bag, maybe? That's what the defense is saying.
But here's the critical thing, Anderson. The forensic anthropologist was asked, was the duct tape applied before decomposition of the little body? He said, yes, because the jaw area always separates from the skull as a body decomposes. But that duct tape, the forensic anthropologist testified, held the two together.
COOPER: But Jean, they weren't able to tie the duct tape to Casey Anthony?
CASAREZ: No. Now that's a big point right there, because we don't have any testimony, even circumstantially, truly, at this point that places that duct tape with Casey Anthony. I think it's going to be found in the home.
But the strongest, Anderson, would be that the car was backed into the garage, the neighbor testified, two days in a row after Caylee went missing, and that Casey had never backed the car into the garage, ever, that he had seen.
COOPER: But wasn't there some video of Casey's father using the same kind of duct tape to put up missing posters?
CASAREZ: That's exactly right. So I think the duct tape is going to be traced to the home, because those posters that a local Orlando affiliate shot when everyone was trying to find her, her family was putting the posters up. And that duct tape matched the duct tape on the remains. But still, we need to see, circumstantially, could Casey have been close to that duct tape?
COOPER: So -- and there's video right now. We're just zooming in on that duct tape. Dr. Hunter, if the medical examiner can't say how Caylee died, how is it possible for her to say that she believed Caylee was murdered?
DR. MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, well, she's saying that she can't determine, necessarily, a cause of death, given the condition of the remains. They're skeletal. The pathologist has very little to work with.
COOPER: There's not a lot of soft tissue; there's basically just skeletal remains?
HUNTER: I mean, right, exactly. We like to have soft tissue where we can find injuries, inflicted injuries, trauma. It allows us to typically say with very good certainty that this is what happened. This is the cause of death.
In cases where you have skeletal remains, you're not able to do that. But keep in mind, Anderson, that as a medical examiner, as a forensic pathologist, we don't simply do autopsies and look at the autopsy and say, "Well, there you go. There's your cause of death." We are experts at determining a manner of death. And we'll use all that information gleaned through the investigation up to the point where the body is found.
The information about the vehicle, the information about how she was possibly packaged and found. We use all of that, and that allows us to form an opinion as far as the manner of death. And in this case, the manner of death is, I think, clearly that of a homicide.
COOPER: The fact that duct tape, Dr. Hunter, let's talk about the duct tape, which Jean brought up. The fact that it was found around the areas of the mouth and the nose, I mean, to you is that clear evidence of homicide? That that was the cause of death was suffocation?
HUNTER: No, no. It's not clear evidence. And I don't think it was clear evidence to the medical examiner here. I mean, she refused to say that it's suffocation because of the position of the duct tape. That's possible.
But when you think of the use of duct tape, there are other uses of that. Certainly, I've come across cases where duct tape is used not necessarily as the mechanism of the homicide, but in order to have the body or what the body is placed in be more easily transported. I mean, duct tape is used to bind and move a body.
Now, the fact that you have it up around the mouth certainly makes it somewhat suspicious. And duct tape has been found to be used in homicides of young individuals. I mean, it definitely does occur.
But, you know, another explanation, this body had been at the residence for an extended period of time, decomposing. I think it's reasonable even to suggest that, maybe duct tape was placed over the mouth and nose simply because those are the areas where the fluid is initially going to come from. It would cause...
COOPER: That's where decomposition fluid initially comes out of first?
HUNTER: Right. And that's going to happen very early on, within at least the first couple of days. Maybe within a day you're going to have fluid coming from these areas. So if she's deceased and you have fluid coming from the areas, I can understand an argument to be made that duct tape was placed around those areas to simply stem the flow of that fluid.
It is suggestive, certainly, just by itself in its position of possibly the mechanism. But the medical examiner certainly wasn't going to go all the way and say this had to be suffocation because of where the duct tape was placed.
COOPER: Jean, prosecutors also showed an animation superimposing Caylee's picture on a picture of the skull and the duct tape. Why was that such an important piece of evidence?
CASAREZ: Well, it was allowed by the judge. And what it did -- and we've seen this in documentaries before, where they take a person's picture, and they took Caylee's, and they superimposed the actual skull, and then the actual duct tape that prosecutors say was over the mouth and nose. Why? To show the jury that one piece of duct tape could cover the nose and the mouth.
Now Anderson, that will show that it could be the murder weapon. But also, I think it's going to show that one piece of duct tape was sufficient to cause the death. And Anderson, there were three pieces of duct tape, prosecutors are going to say, over that mouth. That's aggravating factor, legally. They would use that in the penalty phase.
COOPER: Jean, yesterday Casey supposedly got sick halfway through the day, was excused from court. Today she was very emotional, weeping when a witness said her daughter's bones had been chewed on by animals. Are the jurors watching her closely?
CASAREZ: You know, they aren't, because they're so engrossed in the testimony.
But what I did see today, and it was right when a sidebar was called, when the testimony was that it was animals that had taken the little parts of Caylee and dispersed them into this huge wooded area, I saw one juror, who I think is going to be instrumental in deliberations. He's a teacher. He teaches government. And he said he wants to be on this jury, because he wants to be able to talk to his students about it in the months and years to come.
He was watching Casey Anthony cry in court. And I saw him taking notes in his notebook. And he was looking at her demeanor. What it means, we don't know. But he was taking note of it.
COOPER: Jean Casarez, I appreciate your reporting and Dr. Mike Hunter, as well. Thank you.
HUNTER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Still ahead tonight, Tracy Morgan apologizes for his anti-gay rant. But was it a real apology? Is it enough? Tonight his "30 Rock" co-star and boss, Tina Fey, is weighing in.
And tonight's "RidicuList." The guy obsessed with hidden images in the Denver International Airport is back, and he has something he wants you to see.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We have "The RidicuList" in a moment. Let's check in with Isha with the "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.
SESAY: Anderson, in Eastern Arizona crews will set controlled fires to try to extinguish that monster wildfire that's already destroyed 29 homes and scorched more than 400,000 acres. The blaze is about the size of Houston, and just 5 percent of it is contained.
The death toll from last month's tornado in Joplin, Missouri, is now 151. The coroner says at least one of the most recent deaths was caused by a rare fungal infection that struck at least eight people injured by the twister.
Charla Nash, the Connecticut woman severely mauled by a chimpanzee two years ago, is recovering from a full face transplant performed last month. Her doctors in Boston revealed the news today. They said Nash also received a double hand transplant, but it wasn't a success.
Actor and comedian Tracy Morgan apologized today for anti-gay remarks he made during a comedy act in Nashville. Prominent gay rights groups had demanded an apology, but Human Rights Watch is urging the "30 Rock" star to go even further and quote, "make amends," though it wasn't specific on how.
Late today the chairman of NBC Entertainment and Tina Fey, executive producer of "30 Rock," issued statements condemning Morgan's remarks. All very disturbing and disappointing.
COOPER: The weird thing about his kind of apology is he didn't actually address anything he actually said. He just kind of made this blanket thing of "I'm not a hateful person." So it...
SESAY: We'll see if it's enough.
COOPER: Yes.
Tonight on "The RidicuList," I hope you're going to watch this "RidicuList," because I think it's funny.
Tonight on "The RidicuList," a repeat appearance and new developments from a man named William Tapley. Or as he's also known -- actually, I always mess that part up. William, what are you also known as?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM TAPLEY, SELF-PROCLAIMED PROPHET: Also known as the Third Eagle of the Apocalypse and the Co-prophet of the End Times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's right. That is right. I confuse him with the Second Eagle of the Apocalypse or the Vice Prophet of the End Times.
Anyway, for those of you who don't subscribe to William's YouTube channel, we put him on "The RidicuList" last week, because he has a problem with the Denver International Airport. That's right, the Denver International Airport. Now I know a lot of people have gripes with airports. I get that. Unfortunately, the lock on the -- the lock on the Eagle eye's overhead bin appears to be just a little bit loose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: This program is a continuation of my series on the Denver International Airport and especially the murals and the art contained therein, because they are evil. They are signs of Satanism. And on this program, I will point out the many of them are phallic symbols.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Oh, make yourself comfortable, folks, because he's just getting going. This guy sees phalluses more than Anthony Weiner's female Twitter followers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: Now, in previous videos, I have pointed out that this is actually the figure of a naked woman, and the crotch is formed by a bird form. But right opposite the woman is a penguin. And a YouTuber pointed out to me that this sign on the penguin's cage constitutes a phallic symbol, and in fact represents the male genitalia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Damn those YouTubers, not to mention those pesky penguins and their genitalia.
Anyway, William is upset with us, because he says we were making fun of him. But for the record, I don't like to think I ever make fun of anyone on "The RidicuList." I like to think I'm having fun with you.
Anyway, the One-Winged Dove of the Rapture doesn't quite see it that way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: Now wait a minute, Mr. Anderson Cooper.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Yes. That's never a good start.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: It's really not that funny, Mr. Cooper.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Actually, it is. But preach it to me, brother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: OK. So let me spell it out for you, Mr. Cooper, or in this case, let me draw it out for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Oh, no, no, no, please do not draw it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: Now if you had taken art class, Mr. Cooper, you would know that this is a female private part and this is a male private part.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I'm pretty sure you don't have to take an art class to know that. A quick trip to the bus station, you should be all set.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: But I'm going to mark it for you so that you may see it very clearly. Now, let me assure you, that Mr. Leo Tanguma is no Michelangelo. This is pornography. This is not art.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: All right. First of all, I had no idea penguins have that big a package, did you? I mean, how do they even waddle?
Second of all, those of you watching should know that the man he mentioned, the artist named Leo Tanguma, well, we e-mailed him for comment. He didn't get back to us. And if not wanting to mix it up with the Commodore of the Armageddon isn't a sign of a true artist, I don't know what it is.
By the way, just for the sake of argument, I'm willing to let the Raptor of the Rapture claim victory on the dirty, dirty penguin who's packing heat. But Third Eye Blind fails to back up any of his other numerous claims about hidden phalluses at the airport.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: Many of the shapes on the horse's tail and mane are phallic shapes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And by -- by the way, whatever you do, do not get William the Conqueror started on the outdoor baggage handling area.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: The outdoor baggage handling area is in the shape of a phallus. Up here we see the testicle area and out here the phallus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Look, however William wants to handle his baggage, that's his business. I don't want an argument. I don't want to anger the Fifth Beatle of the Beelzebub any more than I already have. So what is it exactly we can do for you?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPLEY: And so, Mr. Cooper, it is time for you to take me off your "RidicuList."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I'm going to go with no on that one. Sorry, Third Eagle of the Apocalypse and Co-Prophet of the End Times. I mean you no harm, but you will always live long -- and I do mean long -- on "The RidicuList."
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
