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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Mitt Romney as Job Creator; New Evidence Released in Trayvon Martin Shooting Case
Aired May 18, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Erin. Thanks, good evening, everyone. We begin tonight "Keeping Them Honest," with newly released evidence in the Trayvon Martin shooting, the first time audio tapes of the police interview with Trayvon Martin's girlfriend and for the first time, we have learn there had is an eyewitness who say they saw the fight between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
Now, there is still much we don't know about what happened but what we know for sure, of course is that 17-year-old Martin died of a gunshot wound to the chest and that Zimmerman was the one who pulled the trigger. What we don't know if Zimmerman acted in self-defense as he claims.
Yesterday, the state of Florida released a ton of evidence in the case and even the evidence itself tells two very different stories of what happened that night. Each piece of the puzzle can be seen in a number of ways. We have been going through the evidence all last night and all today. Some of it, though, speaks for itself.
Surveillance video from the convenience store where Trayvon Martin bought candy and iced tea, video compelling if only because it shows the teenager's final moments alive. Then the pictures of Zimmerman, pictures that show his injuries after he said he was attacked by Martin. But what, if anything, do these pictures actually prove? We are going to have more on that in a moment.
Another compelling piece of evidence just leads, audio recording of an interview between assistant state attorney in Florida and Trayvon Martin's girlfriend. They were talking on the phone that evening, just before the shooting. She told investigators that Trayvon Martin said a man was watching him from a car and following him so Trayvon Martin started to run. Here is part of that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY (via telephone): Let me make sure I understand this. So, Trayvon tells you that the guy's getting closer to him?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND (via telephone): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Then you hear Trayvon saying something?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: And what do you hear Trayvon saying? ?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: What are you following me for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: What are you following me for.
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: And then what happened?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: He was like, man, oh, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: OK.
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Saying what are you doing around here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: OK. So you definitely could tell another voice that was not Trayvon?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: And you heard this other voice say what?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes. What are you doing around here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: What are you doing around here? OK.
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: And I call Trayvon. Trayvon, what's going on? What's going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: This is you saying that?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes. Then I'm calling him, he didn't answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: No answer from Trayvon?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes. I hear something like bump. You could hear that Trayvon -- somebody bumped Trayvon, because I could hear the grass.
O UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: K. So you could hear there was something going on?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Like something hitting something?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: OK.
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: You could hear -- I could hear the grass thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Out of the side of his --
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: OK. And then what happened?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: And then I was still screaming, I was saying Trayvon, Trayvon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: And there was no response?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes. And the next thing -- the next thing the phone just shuts off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: The phone shut off?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: It just shut off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: OK. Did you hear any kind of screaming like help me or anything like that?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: OK. Did you hear any kind of shot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: No.
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: OK.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: We know from the call that Zimmerman made to 911 that he was told not to follow Martin. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 MALE DISPATCHER: Are you following him?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, SHOT TRAYVON MARTIN: Yes.
911 MALE DISPATCHER: OK. We don't need to you do that.
ZIMMERMAN: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, also just released, a Sanford police report called a capias, which is a request for charges to be filed. That report is dated March 13th and says in part, quote, "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialogue in an effort to dispel each party's concern. There was no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter."
Now, as we said, the newly released filed documents, photos and medical reports and video, it can be seen in a number of way, many piece of the evidence seem to contradict each other, at least to be open to interpretation.
Randi Kaye has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first bit of ambiguous evidence, these pictures. George Zimmerman, who says he killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense, told investigators Trayvon attacked him and slammed his head into the concrete. If that's true, are these wounds consistent with a head hitting pavement?
Documents released Thursday show Zimmerman had abrasions to his forehead, bleeding and tenderness at his nose and a small laceration to the back of his head. And if it was so bad, why didn't Zimmerman go to the hospital? Zimmerman declined to be transported to the hospital, even after he told officers his head hurt and that he felt light headed.
And there's this. If there was a prolonged struggle, would Zimmerman's DNA be on Trayvon Martin's hands? An analysis of scrapings from underneath the teenager's fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman's DNA. But the autopsy done on Martin does show a cut of quote, "1/4 by 1/8th inch small abrasions on the left fourth finger," an indication he might have indeed been punching Zimmerman and new details also reveal the first neighbor to encounter Zimmerman after the shooting found him winded.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE WITNESS: He was having a hard time, because he had -- looked like he had just gotten his butt whooped, so he was a little bit more of a -- you know, not shocked but just like getting up type of thing.
KAYE: There is also this unanswered question. As the two men fought, who was it neighbors heard yelling for help?
In a 911 call, one police sergeant counted a man yelling "help" or "help me" 14 times in just 38 seconds. Listen to this 911 call. You can hear someone yelling in the background.
911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Do you think he's yelling help? KAYE: The Discovery documents show competing versions of the events. Of those who say they heard the struggle, some told police they thought they heard a young boy screaming for help. One witness, witness six, as he is called in the documents, thought it was the voice of a grown man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE WITNESS: There was a black man with a black hoodie on top of either a white guy or a now that I found out, I think it was an Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on, on the ground yelling out help.
KAYE: The FBI looked into this, too but their audio analysis was inconclusive, saying it couldn't determine whose voice it was due to the quote, "extreme emotional state of the person yelling," plus overlapping voice.
The FBI said there was insufficient voice quality On the Recording. And what about that racial slur Zimmerman, a white Hispanic, allegedly used when describing Trayvon?
ZIMMERMAN: The back entrance. [ inaudible ].
KAYE: FBI analysis released Thursday said they could not definitively identify the word Zimmerman used due to weak signal level and poor recording quality. That word is key to the racial discrimination argument. And legal experts say without definitive evidence he used a racial slur, the chances Zimmerman might be charged with a federal hate crime diminish.
But an interview, which is also part of the discovery, with one of Zimmerman's former co-workers says something else. The man, who is Middle Eastern, says Zimmerman is a racist and a bully.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE WITNESS: I was portrayed like I don't know if you ever watched comedy, this guy is called Ahmed, the terrorist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE WITNESS: OK. So it this little guy, he has got this weird voice and some -- that was me in the story. So the story turn hide accent to "no, I kill you."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE WITNESS: And he kept going and going and going.
KAYE: And finally, the question of drugs in Trayvon Martin's system. In his 911 call just before the shooting, Zimmerman indicated the teenager looked like he was on drugs or something, but even though we now know Trayvon's blood had THC in it, the active ingredient in marijuana, that may not mean he was high.
One toxicologist cautioned THC can linger in a person's system for days, even spike after death. And HLN's Dr. Drew Pinsky warned marijuana typically does not make someone more aggressive. With all the new details released this week, you'd think we would be closer to learning the truth about what happened. But really, the one thing we know for sure is that a single gunshot fired straight into the chest of Trayvon Martin killed him.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: One note, in a story published in today's "Orlando Sentinel", the witness described as witness six, who said he heard it was Zimmerman yelling for help later told Florida law enforcement he wasn't so sure who it was.
Joining me live is former Los Angeles deputy district attorney Marsha Clark, author of "guilt by degrees." Also with us, criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos.
So Mark, George Zimmerman says he killed Trayvon Martin in self- defense. How important were Zimmerman's wounds in those pictures be, during the trial?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think they are highly significant. I think that those are going to be defense exhibits as the first thing they can introduce through the very first witness that they put on. Those are consistent with everything that he said, you know, contrary to what people were speculating on in terms of the tape, when you see him cleaned up at the police station. This shows him bleeding with cuts and everything else. I don't know that it's going to be the death knell for the prosecution, but it certainly is something that the defense is going to want to put out there.
COOPER: Marsha, Martin's girl friend was on the phone with him, we played part of that recording, I just want to listen to what she said to authorities a little bit more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Make sure I understand t you could hear it was Trayvon saying that?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: That's why I was calling his name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: He was saying what now?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Get off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Get off?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Is that clear you were hearing that our think you heard that?
TRAYVON MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND: Yes I could hear it a little bit, get off, get off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: She said she heard him say get off, get off. How critical you think that testimony may be from the girlfriend?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER LOS ANGELES DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Very critical. Very critical. The girlfriend's testimony is actually very compelling, because it's interesting to me, Anderson, when it comes to credibility challenge and there will be a challenge to her credibility because she is so pivotal, people are going to look at this and the prosecution will point out she could have embellished her statement a great deal more than she did, but she did not. And it comes across as extremely forthright and candid and very un-embellished. Truthful testimony.
She makes the case for them that this was an attack provoked by Zimmerman, that he was the one going after Trayvon Martin, that he was the one who kept pursuing, that he was the one who initiated the confrontation and very likely initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon Martin that bumped him, caused him to drop his phone and because he provoked this confrontation, that is going to make it very difficult for George Zimmerman to claim self-defense.
GERAGOS: If it comes in. I'm not so sure that those statements come in. There are some U.S. Supreme Court cases recently, I would bet you that the defense challenges her ability to testify to what was said in that conversation.
COOPER: Based on?
GERAGOS: Hearsay. That you don't have the --
CLARK: I know what he --
GERAGOS: Marcia knows what is I'm talking about.
CLARK: I do and he is right. Mark is right there is going to be a big challenge to this going to be a big fight. I think it comes in as an excited aberrance or spontaneous statement, if you will, on Trayvon's part. I think the testimony will be admitted but there will be a battle over this one and I suspect the defense will try and keep it out.
COOPER: And Mark, the fact that the girlfriend did not apparently come forward, she was actually kind of tracked down by Trayvon Martin's father, getting his cell phone records, calling the number, does that speak to her credibility at all?
GERAGOS: Well, yes. If it gets in. And part of the challenge is going to be, wait a second, she's going to a testify, you can't cross-examination the declarant, the declarant being Trayvon Martin, therefore it is hearsay, it shouldn't come in. If it comes in, and Marcia is right. Generally judges are going to let that in. But, if they do, then those things are going to be challenges to her credibility. There's going to be, you know, without destroying her or anything else, there's going to be, I would think, a surgical quality to the cross-examination to try to show that what she heard and what she remembers hearing was not quite what she thinks it is.
COOPER: Just very quickly from both of you. Marcia, how do you think things look for George Zimmerman right now?
CLARK: You know, I do think that there has been some support for his defense in the release of these latest documents. But Anderson, I have to tell you. I look at these injuries, and I think really? Is this -- are these the injuries of someone who justifiably, reasonably, that's really important word here, reasonably believed that his life was in imminent mortal peril?
I don't think so. Not to me. I can see how the wound on the back of the head could have occurred as a result of him falling, because after he attacks Trayvon, Trayvon fights back, they fall to the ground. We know that's true. Both slides concede that and if Trayvon was actually wailing on him, as I think the defense would want to show, then he is going to show a little bit more than just a little quarter-inch cut on one finger. You have to show bruised knuckles.
COOPER: And Mark?
GERAGOS: Well, you know, if this were jurisdiction but a stand your ground jurisdiction like Florida, I would say this is definitely going to trial. It wouldn't be a no-brainer in terms of a probable cause proceeding.
But, after seeing some of this evidence, I think there is a legitimate shot for the defense here to get a ruling that he is immune and that this case doesn't go to trial. It's by into means a slam dunk but I think there's a shot.
COOPER: OK, Mark Geragos, appreciate it, Marsha Clark. Thank you.
Let us know what you think. We are on facebook, follow me on twitter @andersoncooper. Let me know what you think about Mark and Marcia's assessment right there right at Anderson Cooper.
Up next. We are keeping Mitt Romney honest tonight, back saying he helped create 100,000 jobs while he was the head of Bain Capital. We will check the facts, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Another "Keeping Them Honest" reports this one about presumptive Republican nominee Mitt Romney. He spent the week talking about his private sector business career and said again said that he helped create 100,000 jobs when he was CEO of private equity firm Bain Capital. Probably the numbers don't add up. I will explain that in a moment.
But first some background. Romney's claim on creating jobs came in response to a new series of ads released this week by the Obama campaign attacking Romney's record at Bain. Now, one ad focuses on the closure of a Kansas city steel mill which led to big job losses. It features workers who say that Romney and Bain ruined their lives. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID FOSTER, LEAD NEGOTIATOR FOR WORKERS, GST STEEL: Bain Capital was the majority owner. They were responsible. Mitt Romney was deeply involved in the influence that he exercised over these companies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They made as much money of it as they could and they closed it down. They filed for bankruptcy without any concern for the families or the communities.
JACK COBB, STEELWORKER, 31 YEARS: Like a vampire. Came in and suck the life out of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Vampire that suck the life out of us, strong words. Romney says he wasn't even at Bain at the time. Here is what he said Wednesday about the ad to conservative talk radio host Ed Morrissey on "hot air."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Said, God, governor Romney at Bain Capital close downed a steel factory. But their problem, of course is that the steel factory closed down two years after I left Bain Capital. I was no longer there. So, that's hardly something which is on my watch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It is true, Romney wasn't there and he was still Bain's CEO in 2001 when the plant closed. But he was working in the Salt Lake city winter Olympic games, into the on Bain projects. Which bring us to the claim he helped add a whole lot of jobs. Here is what he said next on "hot air."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: Of course, they also don't mention a couple of other things. One is that we were able to help create over 100,000 jobs. And secondly, on the president's watch, about 100,000 jobs were lost in the auto industry and auto dealers and auto manufacturers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, a couple things on that. Those 100,000 jobs that Romney is claiming they helped create, they came after he left Bain. Remember, just a second ago, we showed you how he says he was not responsible for what happened at Bain after he left in terms of job losses but credit for jobs created after he left he will take. Not jobs lost after he left. Seems like he may want to have it both ways. Also in that clip, you heard him say on President Obama's watch, 100,000 jobs were lost in the auto industry. Well, data from the bureau of labor statistics showed the number of jobs in the auto industry has actually increased since President Obama has been president.
Joining me now live is political contributors Mary Matalin and James Carville.
So Mary, is Mitt Romney trying to have it both ways, not taking, you know, credit for jobs lost after he left Bain but taking credit for jobs created?
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: No. Here's the reality. Private equity -- the purpose of private equity is to connect firms that need Capital and expertise with investors and 70 percent of the clients of private equity are endowments, charitable foundations, pension funds, public and private, and together, private equity-backed firms produce or create, back now eight million jobs now in this country.
That's what private equity does. It returns an investment to the investors and those investors in turn, they are invested in, creates jobs.
We are talking about numbers, he should stop talking about numbers. He should just defend private equity and how it is a growth industry, grows jobs, creates jobs and contrast it with the Obama policies which are creating growth at under two percent. That is not growth. Private equity firms grow at six percent greater than their peer industries. So, we should talk about the two concepts, private and public-backed operations. And that's what the campaign should be about not how many numbers.
COOPER: But isn't it odd that he is taking credit for one thing that happened after he left Bain but not taking responsibility for something else that happened after he left Bain?
MATALIN: Yes, that's probably politically awkward but I'm going to say what I always say.
COOPER: OK.
MATALIN: I would rather have a politically awkward candidate with good policies than a very cool politician that Obama is, with horrific, proven failed policies.
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I like it. I like to gamble like Mitt Romney does. If I could just go to the craps table and get credit for the money I won and not have to pay the money I lost, I would be a rich man today. I like that accounting that he does. I just wish could I get Steve Wynn to set up the same way Mitt Romney does.
COOPER: So, you are saying, James, he is trying to have it both ways? CARVILLE: Of course he is and he put it at issue. He started out talking about central to his campaign, the number of jobs that he created at Bain. Well, maybe he created some, some got lost. Well if you take credit for the ones that you create that were created while you were at Bain or after you left Bain, then you got take the responsibility for the ones that you lost. I mean, that's the way it is and there's nothing unfair about pointing that out. If he wants to point out the companies that succeeded, people to the companies that failed if he doesn't merit.
MATALIN: Which in other conversations, Anderson, he has. Because that's how the private free enterprise system works. You win some, you lose so you take a risk, you lose some. But the point is not to go out and vampire, as that commercial, that ad is distorting what it's all about. And that's not -- this is not going to be what this campaign is about. It is going to be about how Obama's policies have failed. We are not -- people don't care what Mitt Romney did in a contracting steam industry 20 years ago. They care what Obama's not doing today to create jobs.
COOPER: James, is it?
CARVILLE: Obama has created more jobs now --
COOPER: Sorry, James go ahead.
CARVILLE: The truth is he has created more private sector jobs than his predecessor created, Romney was 47th out of 50th in job creation and that was after Louisiana suffered hurricane Katrina, which obviously we had massive job losses.
So, Romney's record is certainly nothing imminently fair to talk about -- want to talk about Obama's job creation record as president. We can talk about his job creation record as governor of Massachusetts that is a totally fair thing to do and I'm sure they will do that.
COOPER: Well, James. Is it critical though, of President Obama to attack Mitt Romney on, you know, basically doing what private equity does, which to Mary's point is make money for the investors and sometimes creating jobs, sometimes cutting jobs, doing -- to attack him on that in those ads and then the same day that those ads are released, to be holding a big fund-raiser with private equity firm here in New York with black stone?
CARVILLE: Again, if Romney would have said I made a lot of money for the people invested in me that is a totally true thing. But, what Romney put it at issue by claiming that he created these jobs without -- without counting the jobs that they lost.
Again it is example of me at the craps table. I don't just get to count what I win. I got to count what I lose, too. It was Romney's accounting that put this at issue. If he had said, look, I'm a terrific guy. I will return 23 percent to my investors and I know how to run a private equity company, Obama might have trouble refuting that you. But Romney put it at issue by making central Romney's claim that he only gets to count the jobs that he created, not the jobs that were lost.
COOPER: Mary it is true --
MATALIN: Anderson --
COOPER: Private equity firm perspective, thinking about investing, they never talk about we are here to create jobs. They are there to make money for those who rip vesting in them, as you said.
MATALIN: That is correct. And the Obama strategy presumes a massive ignorance on behalf of the voters. Private equity invests in firms that need Capital, they need expertise, who, would otherwise go under, like he extended the life of that steel firm, by the way, by eight years. And after his initial investment, it was a billion dollar company for a couple of years. It was went under by greedy unions, of foreign competition, dumping in all the rest it also presumes ignorance of steel contraction, which people in swing states understand.
So, private equity, by investing in firms that create jobs, private equity creates jobs, the beginning of it is investors making returns on end product as jobs are created. If people are so -- Obama has to depend on people not making that connection and being that ignorant, well, then we are in big trouble. But people aren't ignorant. They do understand that and they do understand Obama's policies are not creating a growth. We had the lowest labor participation force in 30 years.
COOPER: We got to go. But James, are private equity firms also makes money by eliminating jobs?
CARVILLE: Yes, look. Count me as somebody, my understanding is people invest in private equities because they want a return in their money, they don't want to invest to create jobs. It may or may not create jobs in the process, but the purpose of the private equity firm is to create money for the people who invest in it. I believe that is my understanding.
MATALIN: Pension funds, endowments and charitable foundations, 70 percent.
CARVILLE: Of course. They want a return on their money like everybody else.
COOPER: Mary Matalin, James Carville, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Many Americans traveled at great expense to a clinic in India that treats neurological and genetic disorder with very experimental embryonic stem cell therapy.
The question tonight, is the clinic selling viable treatments or is this fraud? Find out next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Digging deeper tonight, a medical clinic in New Delhi, India, uses experimental embryonic stem cell therapy to treat severe neurological genetic disorders and paralyzing spinal cord injuries.
Nutech Mediworld is run by Dr. Geeta Shroff who he treats patients around the world, including Americans, charging them thousands of dollars.
Now she claims the procedures improve the quality of life, but has published no clinical evidence to back up that claim, none. The therapies used in the clinic are banned in the United States.
On Sunday nights, CNN Presents documentary called "Selling A Miracle," a preview now from Drew Griffin of our special investigations unit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT (voice-over): Lodging is not luxurious. Closet-sized rooms, bathrooms down the hall. Cash's dad and his grandfather will spend weeks in this small space.
(on camera): Our critics, many who have never been here.
DR. GREETA SHROFF, NUTECH MEDIWORLD: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Say she is just getting rich.
SHROFF: Of course, let them say it. Who doesn't want to get rich? Who doesn't work for money? But you also have to work from the heart. You also have to see what you are doing. Is it ethically right? And I believe that I'm doing everything right.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): According to Shroff, in a sliding scale of success she drew up based on the treatment she offers, her results are phenomenal.
SHROFF: As of right now, I would say almost everyone, let's say greater than 90 percent patients, have had success.
GRIFFIN: We asked CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta about Dr. Shroff's claims for success.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We just don't see any data coming from any of these other labs. If it works if you have proven it is safe, it is a pretty simple thing to publish and have it looked at by your own peers.
GRIFFIN (on camera): This woman is either a miracle person in terms of embryonic stem cell research or a fraud.
GUPTA: It is concerning no matter how you look at it. You can inject cells that are not pure in some way and you can potentially cause harm. If it's working and she is doing it the right way, she should write it up. I mean, that's what scientists do, it is what we have been trained to do.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): In fact, Dr. Shroff said she tried to submit some scientific papers on her work.
(on camera): You have tried present this to the International Society of Stem Cell Research?
SHROFF: Yes, twice.
GRIFFIN: They said don't even bother coming?
SHROFF: No. I sent one presentation last year, 2010, or was it 2009? I'm just mixed up a bit and one in 2006, both the times they said no. You can't come. You can't accept -- you can't come and read your paper.
GRIFFIN: They believe, in general, that you and others doing this are frauds.
SHROFF: But if we are frauds then come pull us down. I'm willing to come to your den and talk there. Pull me down there if I'm a fraud.
GRIFFIN: You are not a fraud?
SHROFF: I'm not a fraud, never a fraud. I refuse to be called that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So, Drew, the doctor's convinced she is doing the right thing. Is she?
GRIFFIN: Well, that's -- she never uses the word "cure," Anderson, and she will only say she is improving these patients' lives based on her own scale that she came up with.
There's no clinical studies, no scientific evidence that anything she is doing is any good, other than her patients love her and say she is doing good.
What she is doing is providing hope, albeit perhaps temporarily, for these hopeless people who have come from all over the world to this clinic.
COOPER: Did she allow you to visit her clinic?
GRIFFIN: Yes, we were absolutely in that clinic. We were watching, Anderson, daily, as these patients were given injections of something. She says they were embryonic stem cells.
The patients really have no way to prove that. We had no way to prove that. She has a lab that she says cultivates these embryonic stem cells.
We were not allowed to visit that lab. For all we know, they were injecting sugar water into these patients.
COOPER: All right, Drew Griffin, appreciate it. "Selling A Miracle" is going to be on 8 p.m. Sunday night Eastern Time. Thanks.
Tonight, a video that a Massachusetts school fought hard to suppress it is renewing calls to close the school. It shows a former student strapped down and being shocked through electrodes, electroshocks. You can hear his screams. His mom calls it torture. The school calls it therapy for troubled kids. You will hear from both sides ahead.
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COOPER: New details tonight in the search of a Chicago man suspected of murdering his new bride. By the time her body was found in their bathtub, he is long gone. Now the FBI is on his cell phone trail.
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COOPER: Tonight a "360" Follow, a new push to shutdown a controversial school that we first reported on back in 2006. It's called the Judge Rotenberg Center in Canton, Massachusetts. It is different from any other school in the country. You are going to see why in just a moment.
Now, its supporters say it is a refuge of last resort where young lives are saved, but critics paint a much different picture. They call it a haven for torture where students are zapped with painful electrical shocks, like cattle, they say.
The school calls it aversive therapy for hard-to-control kids, kids with behavioral/developmental issues who haven't been helped by anything else, who other schools or centers won't take.
Now for the first time, a recently released video actually shows the outsiders what the shocks look like in one particular case. School officials fought hard to keep this video out of the public hands, from you -- to stop you from seeing it. We need to warn you though it is very tough to watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT: Help me! Help me! Help! Help!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That is Andre McCollins, a former student being shocked in 2002. The video was evidence in a lawsuit his family recently settled. Now, Andre, who is autistic, received 31 shocks over 7 hours on that particular day.
You see him there he was strapped down. At one point, he is strapped down as he is being shocked. He was later treated for posttraumatic stress disorder. His family attorney says. Now the founder and the former head of the school, Matthew Israel, has long fought to keep videos like that one out of the public eye. Prosecutors say that in 2007, he actually destroyed tapes related to a separate investigation.
As part of a deal, Israel made with prosecutors, he stepped down from his post last year. He no longer runs the school. State officials have repeatedly tried and failed to shutdown the school.
It might surprise you, but many parents whose children now attend the school, some are adults, passionately defend the shocks you just saw.
You will hear from one of them in a moment, but I want to show you one more thing. When Randi Kaye reported on this story back in 2006, she wanted to see for herself what the shocks felt like. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A student can wear up to five electrodes strapped to their arms and legs. I strapped one here to my arm just to see how powerful the shock is. It is delivered with a remote control. Man, that hurts!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The school compares the shocks to a bee sting. The thing is they never know what part of the body they are going to be shocked on the teachers control this you saw McCollins crying out in pain when he was being shocked.
His mom, Cheryl McCollins, is now leading a new drive to shut down the school. Earlier I talked with her, along with Greg Miller who is a former teacher's aide at the Judge Rotenberg Center. He has now turned against the school. Also, the school's attorney, Michael Flamia and Marie Washington, whose son attends the school now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Cheryl, you settled your lawsuit against this center, but you continue to speak out saying it should be closed down. You knew the center administered shocks before you sent your son there.
They even shocked you when they enrolled your son to show you what it was like. So, prior to this videotaped incident, did the shocks actually work to control Andre's behavior?
CHERYL MCCOLLINS, SON VIDEOTAPED BEING SHOCKED: Well, it's really hard to say that it controlled his behavior. He wasn't on it that long. I knew he was afraid of the device.
COOPER: Greg, you were a teacher's assistant at the school for three years. You actually shocked students as part of your job. What criteria were used for shocking a student? Was it a high bar before a student would be shocked? GREG MILLER, FORMER TEACHER'S AIDE AT JUDGE ROTENBERG CENTER: No. If you look at the student's behavior, if the student has, say, out of seat without permission, if rather the student is out of her seat to give you a hug or to stand up.
And ask raise your hand and ask to go to the bathroom or if the student -- any reason student is out of their seat, it is still consider aggression and you shock them period. There's no question about why they are out of their seat, you just shock them.
COOPER: So, Greg, why did you stay so long? You were there three years, if you thought the program was abusive?
MILLER: Well, I was led to believe, like many others, that this was the only thing that was going to work for these students and that these students' behaviors are so strong and severe that I was somehow saving their lives.
And then I kept thinking about how many other ways that I could do something for them instead of shocking them. I kept seeing more bloody scabs all over students' bodies and I said, you know this is wrong.
So it was like a beginning really feeling like I was doing the right thing and in the end, realizing, this is absolutely wrong.
COOPER: Marie, you support the center. Your son has been there since 1989. Why do you believe these shocks are appropriate and necessary?
MARIE WASHINGTON, SON ATTENDS JUDGE ROTENBERG CENTER: Well, it saved my son's life, because my son, when he was admitted to the Judge Rotenberg Center, he had the dangerous behaviors, attacking people. He knocked his father's teeth out.
So, it was only two choices, it is the psychotropic medications or the GED, the treatment map we have at JRC. And the treatment plan at JRC has worked. It's a God send for my son.
COOPER: But they are saying it feels like a bee sting that is how people describe the shock.
WASHINGTON: Yes. Yes. I have had it done to me, yes.
COOPER: But 31 bee stings in the course of seven hours, that's lot of shocks.
WASHINGTON: Yes, you could say that. Yes.
COOPER: Michael, the center, you're an attorney for the center. They fought for years in court to keep this tape and other tapes from being released.
If the center stands by its methods, stand by this method, which is the only place that uses it, why try to prevent a court from seeing what's actually being done? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, JRC is the only school in the country that videotapes all of its treatment. And what JRC -- produced the videotape and the judge ruled that the videotape should remain confidential until the time of trial so that the jury can see all of the evidence at once.
COOPER: But you fought the release of these tapes and the head of your center actually destroyed tapes and had to resign to avoid being prosecuted for that in another case.
MICHAEL FLAMMIA, ATTORNEY FOR JUDGE ROTENBERG CENTER: That was one other occasion and that tape was shown to all of the state agencies that investigated the incident and it was destroyed after he was informed that the investigations had conclude.
COOPER: We don't allow -- this country doesn't allow people in prison to be shocked if they are unruly. It doesn't allow people who have committed murders to be shocked if they are an unruly prisoner.
Why should the country -- why should any state allow severely autistic kids who can't communicate or severely disturbed people to be shocked?
FLAMMIA: Well this is a treatment that's been scientifically proven in scientific journals to be a very effective treatment and safe treatment for severe behavior disorders.
We also don't pump prisoners up with 1,000 milligrams of thorazine or other psychotropic medications, we can't do that either. But that's what happens --
COOPER: I'm sorry, go --
FLAMMIA: I'm saying, that's what happens to these kids when no other treatment works and the treatment -- other treatment programs just give up on the kids and sedate them.
COOPER: But if this works so well, why is it the only place that is doing this?
FLAMMIA: Because for the same reason I'm here on your show today, because there's so few people that have these severe behavior disorders, very few understand the needs of these people and is controversial. And JRC is the only program that is courageous enough to use the treatment that works best and not give up on these people.
COOPER: Greg?
MILLER: These shocks and torture is -- and drugs are both bad, for people can abuse both of them. For him to say that the shocks are -- if they are the only thing that works for them?
No, there are plenty of other things you can do besides shocking them. A kid drinks out of a paper cup and finishes his water and then tears the paper cup. You have to shock the student for tearing that paper cup, the same as if they tore something off the wall. It's not necessary it is being abused. This is torture. That's what it is.
FLAMMIA: Anderson, for every student at that school, we have proven in a court of law that every other treatment was tried and it didn't work.
COOPER: Michael, your critics say that students who received the most shocks are those who have autism can't speak out to say the shocks don't -- to say the shocks aren't effective or painful or they don't like them. How often do -- does a student get shocked in a week?
FLAMMIA: It's about once a week.
COOPER: Greg is that your experience?
MILLER: That's not true, not at all. You have to look at the higher-functioning students and the lower-functioning students. He is not really telling you the truth at all, because the students with the autism, more severe, a student can have multiple shocks in a day.
Might get four times out of their seat just to give you a hug, one student I'm thinking of. Four times out of a seat to get up to give you a hug and you have shock him four times for that.
So you can go -- they go often up to 20 and then that 20, after 20 shocks, they have call the monitoring, the monitoring alerts -- you know, says go ahead go to 30 and at 30, you stop.
COOPER: Michael, I got to come back to just my question before which is if prisoners are not allowed to be shocked because they are unruly and murder other prisoners. Why is it OK to electrically shock a teenager or an adult who can't communicate at all because they are unruly?
FLAMMIA: Well, you can't give a prisoner antipsychotic medication because they are unruly. This is a treatment, OK? It is a treatment like anti-psychotic medication.
MILLER: It is torture.
FLAMMIA: Like cancer. Like cancer treatments. Many of which are painful. The question is what is the best treatment? What's effective? What's going to work? Because let me tell you something, when these kids are pounding their head on the table --
MCCOLLINS: But my sound did not pound his head on anyone.
FLAMMIA: That is painful.
COOPER: I'm sorry, go ahead, Cheryl.
MCCOLLINS: My son didn't pound on nine. My son didn't hit anyone. My son was sitting there. He was asked to take off his coat. He said no and he was shocked.
He ran underneath the table to get away from these maniacs. They pulled him out, tied him up on a board, for 7 hours and shocked him 31 times, for something as minor as not taking off his coat? This is inhuman beyond all reason.
COOPER: Cheryl, how is your son now? What kind of treatment is he getting now?
MCCOLLINS: He is on medication now.
COOPER: And how is he?
MCCOLLINS: He has never been the same. He has never been the same prior to coming to JRC.
COOPER: Cheryl, to the lawyer's point, if your son was doing well in other programs why put him in this program where you knew shocks could be administered?
MCCOLLINS: The only reason why I chose this program is because they had cameras, OK? That was the -- yes, they have cameras. They have cameras in every room.
COOPER: And you thought the cameras would what?
MCCOLLINS: I thought the cameras would protect him.
FLAMMIA: Well, there's no parent that has ever chosen JRC for cameras it is not why Mrs. McCollins chose --
MCCOLLINS: That is yes -- that is not true. Yes, it is.
COOPER: Guys, guys, please, just one at a time, because nobody can hear you when you talk over each other.
MCCOLLINS: My son did not have erratic behaviors, my son didn't bite, scratch, kick, knock down furniture. He didn't do those things.
FLAMMIA: The day in question -- the day in question started with him attacking a staff person that very morning.
MCCOLLINS: Attacking a staff person. I didn't see him attack anyone. He did not attack anyone. That's the point. The point is this is what they do.
WASHINGTON: The point is, Anderson, you have to --
COOPER: Let Cheryl finish, then Marie, you can join in.
WASHINGTON: OK.
MCCOLLINS: The point is they torture disabled children. Exactly what you see on the video is exactly what they do.
WASHINGTON: That is not true. MCCOLLINS: The crazy part of all of this is that it is true.
WASHINGTON: That is not true.
MCCOLLINS: They don't deny what they do as you see my son getting shocked, running underneath the table, trying to get away from them. They pull him out and tie him up on a board for seven hours and shock him 31 times. He never hit anyone. He didn't curse. He was screaming and crying for them to stop.
COOPER: Michael, how controlled are -- are these shocks administered? Because it does seem that if you have teachers or assistants who are authorized to shock kids that can very easily lead to abuse.
FLAMMIA: Right. And that's why it doesn't happen that way. The clinicians have to get the treatment plans approved by the court. The treatment plans have specific behaviors and only those behaviors that can be treated. The behaviors are chosen based on how dangerous they are and how they lead to dangerous behavior.
COOPER: Is it true what Greg says though, in your opinion that if a student stands up out of the seat to go to the bathroom and it is not authorized --
FLAMMIA: No, it's absurd. As you pointed out, Anderson, he worked there three years, never made a complaint, signed statements he never seen any abusive treatment so it is just utter lies.
MCCOLLINS: But we see it on the video of my son not taking off his coat and being shocked 31 times as a result.
FLAMMIA: Again that day -- that day started with --
MILLER: I think people can watch the video now and see the truth for themselves. I think people can watch the nice things that people can now watch on the video, see for themselves what happened to Andre.
The school saying things that it's not true, it's like a bee sting, but people can see for the first time, go to change.org and see what the video -- for themselves what happened to Andre. This is the first time that people are permitted to see for themselves.
FLAMMIA: Anderson, come by the school any time unannounced. We would be happy to show you around the school. You can see it for yourself.
COOPER: Yes, Michael, appreciate it. Marie as well, Cheryl and Greg, I know it is a difficult topic for everyone. I appreciate you discussing it. Thank you. We'll continue to follow it.
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COOPER: Authorities say they found the man responsible for two murders on Mississippi highways. Details ahead of how police tracked down the suspect. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Check in with Isha and see what else we are following at "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, new details in the murder of a Chicago woman who was found stabbed to death days after her wedding. According to an FBI affidavit, authorities tracked the cell phone of her husband and suspected killer to the Texas/Mexico border. He told an associate he was going to Mexico where his parents live.
Mississippi authorities say they have caught the man they believed gunned down two people last week along interstate highways. The 28-year-old James Willy is facing charges of kidnapping, rape and murder in one of the killings.
Anderson, despite all the hype, Facebook's IPO fell flat. The social network shares ended the day right near their offering price, just over $38. Still, the biggest IPO in history raised $16 billion. And I'm sure Mark Zuckerberg is still doing his happy dance tonight.
COOPER: Probably. Isha, thanks. We will be right back.
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COOPER: Ran out of time for the "Ridiculist." That does it for us. We'll see you an hour from now, another edition of "360."
PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT starts now.
