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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
New Evidence Revealed in Trayvon Martin Case; Romney's Jobs Record
Aired May 18, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 10:00 here on the East Coast. Good evening, everyone.
We begin tonight "Keeping Them Honest" with newly released evidence in the Trayvon Martin shooting, for the first time audiotapes of the police interview with Trayvon Martin's girlfriend and for the first time, we have learned there is an eyewitness who says he saw the fight between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
Now, there is still a lot we don't know. We do know for sure that 17-year-old Martin died of a gunshot wound to the chest and that Zimmerman was the one who pulled the trigger. What we don't know is if Zimmerman acted in self-defense, as he claims.
Yesterday, the state of Florida released a ton of evidence in the case and even the evidence itself tells two very different stories of what happened that night. Each piece of the puzzle can be seen in a number of ways. We have been going through the evidence all last night and all today.
Some of it, though, speaks for itself, surveillance video from the convenience store where Trayvon Martin bought candy and iced tea, video compelling, if only because it shows the teenager's final moments alive. Then there are the pictures of Zimmerman, pictures that show his injuries after he said he was attacked by Martin.
But what, if anything, do these pictures actually prove? We are going to have more on that in a moment. Another compelling piece of evidence just released, audio recording of an interview between an assistant state attorney in Florida and Trayvon Martin's girlfriend. They were talking on the phone that evening, just before the shooting.
She told investigators that Trayvon Martin said a man was watching him from a car and following him so Trayvon Martin started to run. Here is part of that interview.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me make sure I understand this. So, Trayvon tells you the guy's getting closer to him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then you hear Trayvon saying something?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what do you hear Trayvon saying?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you following me for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you following me for?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard this man, like, old man...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... saying, what are you doing around here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So you definitely could tell another voice that was not Trayvon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you heard this other voice say what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. What are you doing around here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing around here? OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I call Trayvon. Trayvon, what's going on, what's going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is you saying that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then I'm calling him. He didn't answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No answer from Trayvon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I hear something like bump. You could hear that Trayvon -- somebody bumped Trayvon, because I could hear the grass.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So you could hear there was something going on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like something hitting something?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You could hear I could hear the grass. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Out of the -- I guess out of his...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then I was still screaming, I was saying Trayvon, Trayvon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there was no response?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
And the next thing -- the next thing the phone just shut off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The phone shut off?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just shut off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did you hear any kind of screamings like help me or anything like that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did you hear any kind of shot?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, we know from the call that Zimmerman made to 911 that he was told not to follow Martin. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Are you following him?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, DEFENDANT: yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. We don't need to you do that.
ZIMMERMAN: OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, also just released, a Sanford police report called a capias, which is a request for charges to be filed. That report is dated March 13 and says in part -- quote -- "The encounter between the George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement or, conversely, if he identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialogue in an effort to dispel each party's concern. There's no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter."
Now, as we said, the newly released documents, photos, medical reports, and video, it can be seen in a number of ways. Many pieces of the evidence seem to contradict each other, at least to be open to interpretation.
Randi Kaye has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first bit of ambiguous evidence, these pictures.
George Zimmerman, who says he killed Trayvon Martin in self- defense, told investigators Trayvon attacked him and slammed his head into the concrete. If that's true, are these wounds consistent with a head hitting pavement? Documents released Thursday show Zimmerman had abrasions to his forehead, bleeding and tenderness at his nose, and a small laceration to the back of his head.
And if it was so bad, why didn't Zimmerman go to the hospital? Zimmerman declined to be transported to the hospital, even after he told officers his head hurt and that he felt lightheaded. And there's this. If there was a prolonged struggle, would Zimmerman's DNA be on Trayvon Martin's hands?
An analysis of scrapings from underneath the teenager's fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman's DNA. But the autopsy done on Martin does show a cut, a -- quote -- "1/4-by-1/8th-inch small abrasion on the left fourth finger," an indication he might indeed have been punching Zimmerman.
And new details also reveal the first neighbor to encounter Zimmerman after the shooting found him winded.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was having a hard time, because he -- looked like he had just gotten his butt whooped, so he was a little bit more of a -- you know, not shocked, but like just getting up type of thing.
KAYE: There is also this unanswered question. As the two men fought, who was it neighbors heard yelling for help? In a 911 call, one police sergeant counted a man yelling help or help me 14 times in just 38 seconds.
(voice-over): Listen to this 911 call. You can hear someone yelling in the background.
(SCREAMING)
911 OPERATOR: Do you think he's yelling help?
KAYE: The discovery documents show competing versions of the events. Of those who say they heard the struggle, some told police they thought they heard a young boy screaming for help. One witness, witness six, as he is called in the documents, thought it was the voice of a grown man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a black man with a black hoodie on top of either a white guy or, now that I found out, I think it was an Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on, on the ground yelling out help.
KAYE: The FBI looked into this, too, but their audio analysis was inconclusive, saying it couldn't determine whose voice it was due to the -- quote -- "extreme emotional state of the person yelling," plus overlapping voices.
The FBI said there was an insufficient voice quality on the recording. And what about that racial slur Zimmerman, a white Hispanic, allegedly used when describing Trayvon?
ZIMMERMAN: The back entrance. (INAUDIBLE)
KAYE: FBI analysis released Thursday said they could not definitively identify the word Zimmerman used due to weak signal level and poor recording quality. That word is key to the racial discrimination argument.
And legal experts say, without definitive evidence he used a racial slur, the chances Zimmerman might be charged with a federal hate crime diminish.
But an interview which is also part of the discovery with one of Zimmerman's former co-workers says something else. The man, who is Middle Eastern, says Zimmerman is a racist and a bully.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was portrayed like the -- I don't know if you ever watch comedy. This guy is called Ahmed the terrorist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So it this little guy. He has got this weird voice and some -- that was me in the story. So the story turned my accent to, no, I kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he kept going and going and going.
KAYE: And, finally, the question of drugs in Trayvon Martin's system. In his 911 call just before the shooting, Zimmerman indicated the teenager looked like he was on drugs or something, but even though we now know Trayvon's blood had THC in it, the active ingredient in marijuana, that may not mean he was high.
One toxicologist cautioned THC can linger in a person's system for days, even spike after death. And HLN's Dr. Drew Pinsky warned, marijuana typically does not make someone more aggressive.
With all the new details released this week, you would think we would be closer to learning the truth about what happened, but, really, the one thing we know for sure is that a single gunshot fired straight into the chest of Trayvon Martin killed him. Randi Kaye, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, one note: In a story published in today's "Orlando Sentinel," the witness described as witness six, who said he heard it was Zimmerman yelling for help, later told Florida law enforcement he wasn't so sure who it was.
Joining me now live is former Los Angeles district attorney Marcia Clark, author of "Guilt By Degrees." Also with us, criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos.
So, Mark, George Zimmerman says he killed Trayvon Martin in self- defense. How important will Zimmerman's wounds in those pictures be during the trial?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think they are highly significant.
And I think that those are going to be defense exhibits as the first thing that they can introduce through the very first witness that they put on. Those are consistent with everything that he said.
You know, contrary to what people were speculating on in terms of the tape, when you see him cleaned up at the police station, this shows him bleeding with cuts and everything else. I don't know that it's going to be the death knell for the prosecution, but it certainly is something that the defense is going to want to put out there.
Marcia, Martin's girlfriend was on the phone with him. We played part of that recording. I just want to listen to what she said to authorities a little bit more.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Want to make sure I understand. You could hear it was Trayvon saying that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. That's why I was calling his name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he was saying what now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like, get off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that clear you were hearing that or you think you heard that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I could hear it a little bit, get off, get off.
(END AUDIO CLIP) COOPER: She says she heard him say, get off, get off.
How critical do you think that testimony may be from the girlfriend?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, very critical. Very critical.
The girlfriend's testimony is actually very compelling, because it's interesting to me, Anderson, when it comes to a credibility challenge -- and there will be a challenge to her credibility because she is so pivotal -- people are going to look at this and the prosecution will point out she could have embellished her statement a great deal more than she did, but she did not.
And it comes across as extremely forthright and candid and very unembellished, truthful testimony. She makes the case for them that this was an attack provoked by Zimmerman, that he was the one going after Trayvon Martin, that he was the one who kept pursuing, that he was the one who initiated the confrontation and very likely initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon Martin, that bumped him, caused him to drop his phone, and because he provoked this confrontation, that is going to make it very difficult for George Zimmerman to claim self-defense.
GERAGOS: If it comes in. I'm not sure that those statements come in. There's some U.S. Supreme Court cases recently. I would bet you that the defense challenges her ability to testify to what was said in that conversation.
COOPER: Based on?
GERAGOS: Hearsay, that you don't have the...
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: I know what he...
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: But I think it will.
GERAGOS: Marcia know what is I'm talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: I do. And he is right. Mark is right. There is going to be a big challenge to this. That is going to be a big fight.
I think it comes in as an excited utterance or spontaneous statement, if you will, on Trayvon's part. I think the testimony will be admitted. But there will be a battle over this one. And I suspect the defense will try and keep it out.
(CROSSTALK) COOPER: And, Mark, the fact that the girlfriend did not apparently come forward, she was actually kind of tracked down by Trayvon Martin's father getting his cell phone records, calling the number, does that speak to her credibility at all?
GERAGOS: Well, yes, if it gets in.
And part of the challenge is going to be, wait a second, she's going to testify. You can't cross-examination the declarant, the declarant being Trayvon Martin. Therefore, it is hearsay, it shouldn't come in.
If it comes in -- and Marcia is right -- generally, judges are going to let that in -- but if they do, then those things are going to be challenges to her credibility. There's going to be -- you know, without destroying her or anything else, there's going to be, I would think, a surgical quality to the cross-examination to try to show that what she heard and what she remembers hearing was not quite what she thinks it is.
COOPER: Just very quickly from both of you.
Marcia, how do you think things look for George Zimmerman right now?
CLARK: You know, I do think that there has been some support for his defense in the release of these latest documents.
But, Anderson, I have to tell you, I look at these injuries, and I think, really? Is this -- are these the injuries of someone who justifiably, reasonably, that's a really important word here, reasonably believed that his life was in imminent mortal peril?
I don't think so, not to me. I can see how the wound on the back of the head could have occurred as a result of him falling, because after he attacks Trayvon, Trayvon fights back, they fall to the ground. We know that's true. Both sides will concede that. And if Trayvon was actually whaling on him, as I think the defense would want to show, then he is going to show a little bit more than just a little quarter-inch cut on one finger. You are going to show bruised knuckles.
COOPER: And Mark?
GERAGOS: Well, if this were any jurisdiction but a stand your ground jurisdiction like Florida, I would say this is definitely going to trial. It wouldn't be -- it would be a no-brainer in terms of a probable cause proceeding.
But after seeing some of this evidence, I think there is a legitimate shot for the defense here to get a ruling that he is immune and that this case doesn't go to trial. It's by no means a slam-dunk, but I think there's a shot.
COOPER: OK, Mark Geragos, appreciate it.
Marcia Clark, thank you.
Let us know what you think. We are on Facebook. Follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. Let me know what you think about Mark and Marcia's assessment right there right now @AndersonCooper.
Up next, we are keeping Mitt Romney honest tonight. He's back saying that he helped create 100,000 jobs while he was the head of Bain Capital. We will check the facts when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Another "Keeping Them Honest" report, this one about presumptive Republican nominee Mitt Romney.
He spent the week talking about his private sector business career and again said that he helped create 100,000 jobs when he was CEO of the private equity firm Bain Capital. The problem is the numbers don't add up. I will explain that in a moment, but first some background.
Romney's claim on creating jobs came in response to a new series of ads released this week by the Obama campaign attacking Romney's record at Bain. Now, one ad focuses on the closure of a Kansas City steel mill, which led to big job losses. It features workers who say that Romney and Bain ruined their lives. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bain Capital was the majority opener. They were responsible. Mitt Romney was deeply involved in the influence that he exercised over these companies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They made as much money off of it as they could and they closed it down. They filed for bankruptcy without any concern for the families or the communities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was like a vampire. They came in and sucked the life out of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: A vampire that sucked the life out of us, strong words. Romney says he wasn't even at Bain at the time. Here is what he said Wednesday about the ad to conservative talk radio host Ed Morrissey on "Hot Air."
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They said, oh, gosh, Governor Romney at Bain Capital close downed a steel factory, but their problem, of course, is that the steel factory closed down two years after I left Bain Capital. I was no longer there. So, that's hardly something which is on my watch.
(END AUDIO CLIP) COOPER: Well, it is true Romney wasn't there. He was still Bain's CEO in 2001 when the plant closed, but he was working in the Salt Lake City Winter Olympic Games, not on Bain projects, which brings us to the claim he helped add a whole lot of jobs. Here is what he said next on "Hot Air."
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROMNEY: And, of course, they also don't mention a couple of other things. One is that we were able to help create over 100,000 jobs. And, secondly, on the president's watch, about 100,000 jobs were lost in the auto industry and auto dealers and auto manufacturers.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: So a couple things on that. Those 100,000 jobs that Romney is claiming they helped create, they came after he left Bain.
Remember, just a second ago, we showed you how he says he was not responsible for what happened at Bain after he left in terms of job losses, but credit for jobs created after he left, he will take, not jobs lost after he left.
Seems like he may want to have it both ways. Also in that clip, you heard him say, on President Obama's watch, 100,000 jobs were lost in the auto industry. Well, data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that the number of jobs in the auto industry has actually increased since President Obama has been president.
Joining me now live is political contributors Mary Matalin and James Carville.
So, Mary, is Mitt Romney trying to have it both ways, not taking, you know, credit for jobs lost after he left Bain, but taking credit for jobs created?
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: No, because here's the reality.
Private equity -- the purpose of private equity is to connect firms that need capital and expertise with investors. And 70 percent of the clients of private equity are endowments, charitable foundations, pension funds, public and private. And together, private equity-backed firms produce or create or back now eight million jobs now in this country.
That's what private equity does. It returns an investment to the investors. And those investors in turn -- that they are invested in creates jobs. We are talking about numbers. He should stop talking about numbers. He should just defend private equity and how it is a growth industry, it grows jobs, it creates jobs, and contrast that with the Obama policies, which are creating growth at under 2 percent.
That is not growth. Private equity firms grow at 6 percent greater than their peer industries. So we should talk about the two concepts, private- and public-backed operations. And that's what the campaign should be about, not how many numbers.
COOPER: But isn't it odd that he is taking credit for one thing that happened after he left Bain, but not taking responsibility for something else that happened after he left Bain?
MATALIN: Yes, that's probably politically awkward, but I'm going to say what I always say.
COOPER: OK.
MATALIN: I would rather have a politically awkward candidate with good policies than a very cool politician that Obama is with horrific, proven failed policies.
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I would like to gamble like Mitt Romney does.
If I could just go to the craps table and get credit for the money I won and not have to pay the money I lost, I would be a rich man today. I like that accounting that he does. I just wish could I get Steve Wynn to settle up the same way that Mitt Romney does.
COOPER: So you are saying, James, he is trying to have it both ways?
CARVILLE: Well, of course he is. And he put it at issue.
He started out talking about central to his campaign is the number of jobs that he created at Bain. Well, maybe he created some, some got lost. Well, if you take credit for the ones that you create -- that were created while you were at Bain or after you left Bain, then you got take the responsibility for the ones that you lost.
That's the way it is. And there's nothing unfair about pointing that out. And if he wants to point out the companies that succeeded, then people will try and point out the companies that failed.
(CROSSTALK)
MATALIN: Which, in other conversations, Anderson, he has, because that's how the private free enterprise system works. You win some, you lose. You take a risk, you lose some.
But the point is not to go out and vampire, as that commercial, that ad is distorting what it's all about. And that's not -- this is not going to be what that -- this campaign is about. It is going to be about how Obama's policies have failed. We are not -- people don't care what Mitt Romney did in a contracting steel industry 20 years ago. They care what Obama's not doing today to create jobs.
COOPER: James, is it...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Look, Obama has created more jobs now...
COOPER: Sorry, James, go ahead. Go ahead.
CARVILLE: Well, the truth is he has created more private sector jobs than his predecessor created, and he has done that in under four years, the president has.
Over eight years, Romney was 47 out of 50th in job creation. And that was after Louisiana suffered Hurricane Katrina, which obviously we had massive job losses. So, Romney's record is certainly nothing -- and that's imminently fair to talk about. If you want to talk about Obama's job creation record as president, then they can talk about his job creation record as governor of Massachusetts. That is a totally fair thing to do and I'm sure that they are going to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Well, James, is it hypocritical, though, of President Obama to attack Mitt Romney on, you know, basically doing what private equity does, which, to Mary's point, is make money for its investors, and sometimes it's creating jobs, sometimes it's cutting jobs, doing -- to attack him on that in those ads, and then the same day that those ads are released, to be holding a big fund-raiser with a private equity firm here in New York, with Blackstone?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Again, if Romney would have said that I made a lot of money for the people who invested in me, that is a totally true thing.
But Romney put it at issue by claiming that he created these jobs without -- without counting the jobs that they lost. Again, it is example of me at the craps table. I don't just get to count what I win. I got to count what I lose, too. It was Romney's accounting that put this at issue.
If he would have said, look, I'm a terrific guy, I returned 23 percent to my investor, and I really know how to run a private equity company, then Obama might have trouble refuting that. But Romney put it at issue by making central Romney's claim that he only gets to count the jobs that he created, not the jobs that were lost.
COOPER: Mary, it is true...
MATALIN: Anderson...
COOPER: ... that when you look at a private equity firm prospective, if you're thinking about investing, they never talk about we are here to create jobs. They are there to make money for those who are vesting in them, as you said.
MATALIN: That is correct.
And the Obama strategy presumes massive ignorance on behalf of the voters. Private equity invests in firms that need capital, they need expertise, who would otherwise go under, like this -- he extended the life of that steel firm, by the way, by eight years. And after his initial investment, it was a $1 billion company for a couple of years. It was went under by greedy unions, foreign competition, dumping and all the rest. It also presumes an ignorance of steel industry contraction, which people in swing states understand.
So private equity, by investing in firms that create jobs, private equity creates jobs. The beginning of it is investors making returns on the end product as jobs are created. If people are so -- if Obama has to depend on people not making that connection and being that ignorant, well, then we are in big trouble. But people aren't ignorant.
They do understand that and they do understand Obama's policies are not creating a growth. We had the lowest labor participation force in 30 years.
COOPER: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: We got to go. We got to go, but, James, private equity firms also make money by eliminating jobs.
CARVILLE: Yes, look, count me as somebody -- my understanding is people invest in private equities because they want a return on their money. They don't want to invest to create jobs.
It may or may not create jobs in the process, but the purpose of the private equity firm is to create money for the people who invest in it. At least, that is my understanding.
(CROSSTALK)
MATALIN: For pension funds, endowments and charitable foundations, 70 percent of it.
CARVILLE: Of course. And they want a return on their money, just like anything else.
COOPER: Mary Matalin, James Carville, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Many Americans have traveled at great expense to a clinic in India that treats neurological and genetic disorders with very experimental embryonic stem cell therapy. The question tonight, is the clinic selling viable treatments or is this fraud? Find out next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: "Digging Deeper" tonight: a medical clinic in New Delhi, India, it uses experimental embryonic stem cell therapy to treat severe neurological and genetic disorders and paralyzing spinal cord injuries.
Nu Tech Mediworld world is run by Dr. Geeta Shroff, who treats patients from around the world, including Americans, charging them thousands of dollars.
Now, she claims her procedures improve their quality of life, but has no clinical evidence to back up that claim, none. And the therapies used at the clinic are banned in the United States.
On Sunday night, CNN presents a documentary called "Selling a Miracle."
A preview now from Drew Griffin of our Special Investigations Unit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The lodging is not luxurious: closet-sized rooms, bathrooms down the hall. Cash's dad and his grandfather will spend weeks in this small space.
(on camera) Your critics, many who have never been here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Say she's just getting rich.
DR. GEETA SHROFF, NUTECH MEDIWORLD: Of course. Let them say it. Who doesn't want to get rich? Who doesn't work for money? But you also have to work from the heart. You also have to see what you're doing. Is it ethically right? And I believe that I'm doing everything right.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): According to Shroff, and a sliding scale of success she drew up based on the treatments she offers, her results are phenomenal.
SHROFF: As of right now, I would say almost everyone, let's say greater than 90 percent patients, have had success.
GRIFFIN: We asked CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta about Dr. Shroff's claims for success.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We just don't see any data coming from any of these other labs. If it works, if you've proven that it's safe, it's a pretty simple thing to publish and have it looked at by your own peers.
GRIFFIN (on camera): This woman is either a miracle person in terms of embryonic stem-cell research or a fraud.
GUPTA: It's concerning no matter how you look at it. You can inject cells that are not pure in some way, and you can potentially cause harm. If it's working, and she's doing it the right way, she should write it up. I mean, that's what scientists do. It's what we've been trained to do.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): In fact, Dr. Shroff said she tried to submit some scientific papers on her work.
(on camera) You've tried to present this to the International Society of Stem Cell Research?
SHROFF: Yes. Twice.
GRIFFIN: They said don't even bother coming?
SHROFF: No. I sent one presentation last year, 2010, or was it 2009? I'm just mixed up a bit. And one in 2006, and both the times they said, 'No. You can't come. You can't accept -- you can't come and read your paper."
GRIFFIN: They believe, in general, that you and others doing this are frauds.
SHROFF: But if we are frauds, then come pull us down. I'm willing to come to your den and talk there. Pull me down there if I'm a fraud.
GRIFFIN: You're not a fraud?
SHROFF: I'm not a fraud. Never a fraud. I refuse to be called that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So, Drew, the doctor's convinced she's doing the right thing. Is she?
GRIFFIN: Well, that's -- she never uses the word "cure," Anderson. And she will only say she's improving these patients' lives based on her own scale that she came up with.
There's no clinical studies, no scientific evidence that anything she's doing is any good, other than her patients love her and say she is doing good.
What she is doing is providing hope, albeit perhaps temporarily, for these hopeless people who have come from all over the world to this clinic.
COOPER: Did she allow you to visit her clinic?
GRIFFIN: Yes, we were absolutely in that clinic. We were watching, Anderson, daily, as these patients were given injections of something. She says they were embryonic stem cells. The patients really have no way to prove that. We had no way to prove that.
She has a lab that she says cultivates these embryonic stem cells. We were not allowed to visit that lab. So for all we know, they were injecting sugar water into these patients.
COOPER: All right, Drew Griffin, appreciate it. "Selling a Miracle" is going to be on 8 p.m. Sunday night, Eastern Time. Thanks.
Well, tonight, a video that a Massachusetts school fought hard to suppress. It's renewing calls to close the school. This is a former student strapped down and being shocked through electrodes, electric shocks. You can hear his screams. His mom calls it torture. The school calls it therapy for troubled kids. You'll hear from both sides ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: New details tonight in the search for a Chicago man suspected of murdering his new bride. By the time her body was found in their bathtub, he was long gone. Now the FBI is on his cell-phone trail.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight a "360 Follow." A new push to shut down a controversial school that we first reported on back in 2006. It's called the Judge Rotenberg Center in Canton, Massachusetts. It's different from any other school in the country, and you're going to see why in just a moment.
Now, its supporters say it's a refuge of last resort, where young lives are saved, but its critics paint a much different picture. They call it a haven for torture, where students are zapped with painful electrical shocks, like cattle, they say.
The school calls it aversive therapy for hard-to-control kids, kids with behavioral/developmental issues who haven't been helped by anything else, who other schools or centers won't take.
Now for the first time, a recently released video actually shows outsiders what the shocks look like in one particular case. School officials fought hard to keep this video out of the public hands, from you -- to stop you from seeing it. We need to warn you though, it is very tough to watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ow. Ow! Ow! Ow! Help me! Help me! Help! Help! Help! Help me! Help! Help! Help!
(SCREAMING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That is Andre McCollins, a former student, being shocked in 2002. The video was evidence in a lawsuit his family recently settled.
Now, Andre, who's autistic, received 31 shocks over seven hours on that particular day. You can see him there. He was strapped down. At one point, he's strapped down as he's being shocked. He was later treated for posttraumatic stress disorder, his family attorney says.
Now the founder and the former head of the school, Matthew Israel, has long fought to keep videos like that one out of the public eye. Prosecutors say that in 2007, he actually destroyed tapes related to a separate investigation.
As part of a deal Israel made with prosecutors, he stepped down from his post last year. He no longer runs the school.
State officials have repeatedly tried and failed to shut down the school.
It might surprise you, but many parents whose children now attend the school -- and some of them are even adults -- passionately defend the shocks that you just saw. You're going to hear from one of them in a moment.
But I want to show you one more thing. When Randi Kaye reported on this story back in 2006, she wanted to see for herself what the shocks felt like. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A student can wear up to five electrodes strapped to their arms and their legs. I strapped one here to my arm just to see how powerful the shock is. It's delivered with a remote control. Oh! Oh, man! That hurts!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, the school compares the shocks to a bee sting. The thing is they never know what part of the body they're going to be shocked on. The teachers control this.
You saw McCollins crying out in pain when he was being shocked. His mom, Cheryl McCollins, is now leading a new drive to try to shut down the school.
Earlier I talked with her, along with Greg Miller, who is a former teacher's aide at the Judge Rotenberg Center. He's now turned against the school.
Also, the school's attorney, Michael Flammia, and Marie Washington, whose son attends the school now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Cheryl, you settled your lawsuit against this center, but you continue to speak out, saying it should be closed down.
You knew the center administered shocks before you sent your son there. They even shocked you when you enrolled your son to show you what it was like. So, prior to this videotaped incident, did the shocks actually work to control Andre's behavior?
CHERYL MCCOLLINS, MOTHER: Well, it's really hard to say that it controlled his behavior. He wasn't on it that long. I knew he was afraid of the device.
COOPER: Greg, you were a teacher's assistant at the school for three years. You actually shocked students as part of your job. What criteria were used for shocking a student? Was it a high bar before a student would be shocked? GREG MILLER, FORMER TEACHER'S ASSISTANT AT JUDGE ROTENBERG CENTER: No. If you look at the student's behavior, if the student has, say, out of seat without permission -- whether the student is out of her seat to give you a hug or to stand up and ask -- raise their hand and ask to go to the bathroom, or if the student -- any reason the student is out of their seat, it's still considered aggression and you shock them, period. There's no question about why they're out of their seat. You just shock them.
COOPER: So, Greg, why did you stay so long -- you were there three years -- if you thought the program was abusive?
MILLER: Well, I was led to believe, like many others, that this was the only thing that was going to work for these students and that these students' behaviors were so strong and severe that I was somehow saving their lives.
And then I kept thinking about how many other ways that I could do something for them instead of shocking them. I kept seeing more bloody scabs all over students' bodies. And I said, hey, you know this is wrong.
So it was like at beginning really feeling like I was doing the right thing and in the end, realizing, hey, this is absolutely wrong.
COOPER: Marie, you support the center. Your son has been there since 1989. Why do you believe these shocks are appropriate and necessary?
MARIE WASHINGTON, SON RESIDES AT CENTER: Well, it saved my son's life, because my son, when he was admitted to the center, he was the dangerous behaviors, attacking people. He knocked his father's teeth out.
So, it was only two choices. It's the psychotropic medications or the GED, the treatment plan that we have at JRC and the treatment plan at JRC has worked -- is a godsend for my son.
COOPER: But they're saying it feels like a bee sting. That's how people describe the shock.
WASHINGTON: Yes. Yes. I've had it done to me. Right.
COOPER: But 31 bee stings in the course of seven hours, that's a lot of shocks.
WASHINGTON: Yes. You could say that. Yes.
COOPER: Michael, the center -- you're an attorney for the center. They fought for years in court to keep this tape and other tapes from being released. If the center stands by its methods, stand by this method, which is the only place that uses it, why try to prevent a court from seeing what's actually being done?
MICHAEL FLAMMIA, ATTORNEY FOR JUDGE ROTENBERG CENTER: No, JRC is the only school in the country that videotapes all of its treatment. And what JRC -- produced the videotape and the judge ruled that the videotape should remain confidential until the time of trial so that the jury can see all of the evidence at once.
COOPER: But you fought the release of these tapes, and the head of your center actually destroyed tapes and had to resign to avoid being prosecuted for that in another case.
FLAMMIA: That was one other occasion, and that tape was shown to all of the state agencies that investigated the incident. And it was destroyed after he was informed that the investigations had concluded.
COOPER: We don't allow -- this country doesn't allow people in prison to be shocked if they're unruly. It doesn't allow people who've committed murders to be shocked if they're an unruly prisoner.
Why should the country -- why should any state allow severely autistic kids, who can't communicate, or severely disturbed people to be shocked?
FLAMMIA: Well, this is a treatment that's been scientifically proven in scientific journals to be a very effective treatment and a safe treatment for severe behavior disorders.
We also don't pump prisoners up with 1,000 milligrams of Thorazine or other psychotropic medications. We can't do that, either. That's what happens...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Well, I'm sorry, go...
FLAMMIA: Well, I'm saying, that's what happens to these kids when no other treatment works, and the treatment -- other treatment programs just give up on the kids and sedate them.
COOPER: But if this works so well, why is it the only place that is doing this?
FLAMMIA: Because -- for the same reason I'm here on your show today, because there's so few people that have these severe behavior disorders. Very few understand the needs of these people, and it's controversial. And JRC is the only program that's courageous enough to use the treatment that works best and not give up on these people.
COOPER: Greg?
MILLER: These shocks and torture is -- and drugs are both bad, for people can abuse both of them. For him to say that the shocks are -- if they're the only thing that works for them? No, there are plenty of other things you can do besides shock them.
A kid drinks out of a paper cup and finishes his water and then tears the paper cup, you have to shock the student for tearing that paper cup the same as if they tore something off the wall. It's not necessary. It's being abused. This is torture. That's what it is. FLAMMIA: Anderson, for every student at that school, we've proven in a court of law that every other treatment was tried, and it didn't work.
COOPER: Michael, your critics say that students who received the most shocks are those who have autism, can't speak out to say the shocks don't -- you know, to say the shocks aren't effective or painful or they don't like them. How often do -- does a student get shocked in a week?
FLAMMIA: It's about once a week.
COOPER: Greg, is that your experience?
MILLER: That's not true. Not at all. You've got to look at the higher-functioning students and the lower-functioning students. He's not -- not really telling you the truth at all, because the students with the autism, more severe, a student can have multiple shocks in a day. They might get four times out of their seat just to give you a hug, one student I'm thinking of, four times out of a seat to get up to give you a hug, and you have to shock him four times for that.
So you can go -- they go often up to 20, and then that 20, after 20 shocks, they have to call the monitoring, the monitoring alerts -- you know, says go ahead, go to 30, and at 30 you stop.
COOPER: Michael, I guess I've got to come back to just my question before, which is if prisoners are not allowed to be shocked because they're unruly and murder other prisoners, why is it OK to electrically shock a teenager or an adult who can't communicate at all because they're unruly?
FLAMMIA: Well, you can't give a prisoner antipsychotic medication because they're unruly. This is a treatment, OK? It's a treatment like anti-psychotic medication.
MILLER: It is torture.
FLAMMIA: Like cancer. Like cancer treatments. Many of which are painful. The question is what is the best treatment? What's effective? What's going to work? Because let me tell you something, when these kids are pounding their head on the table to the point of causing themselves...
MCCOLLINS: But my son did not pound his head on anyone.
FLAMMIA: That is painful.
COOPER: I'm sorry, go ahead, Cheryl.
MCCOLLINS: My son didn't pound on anyone. My son didn't hit anyone. My son was sitting there. He was asked to take off his coat. He said no, and he was shocked.
He ran underneath the table to get away from these maniacs. They pulled him out, tied him up on a board for seven hours, and shocked him 31 times for something as minor as not taking off his coat? This is inhumane beyond all reason.
COOPER: Cheryl, how is your son now? What kind of treatment is he getting now?
MCCOLLINS: He's on medication now.
COOPER: And how is he?
MCCOLLINS: He has never been the same. He has never been the same prior to coming to JRC.
COOPER: Cheryl, to the lawyer's point, if your son was doing well in other programs, why put him in this program where you knew shocks could be administered?
MCCOLLINS: The only reason why I chose this program is because they had cameras, OK? That was the -- yes, they have cameras. They have cameras in every room.
COOPER: And you thought the cameras would what?
MCCOLLINS: I thought the cameras would protect him.
FLAMMIA: Well, there's no parent that's ever chosen JRC for cameras. It's not why Mrs. McCollins chose it.
MCCOLLINS: That is why...
FLAMMIA: That is not true.
MCCOLLINS: Yes, it is. Yes, it is true.
COOPER: Guys, guys, please, just one at a time, because nobody can hear you when you talk over each other.
MCCOLLINS: My son did not have erratic behaviors. My son didn't bite, scratch, kick, knock down furniture. He didn't do those things.
FLAMMIA: The day in question -- the day in question started with him attacking a staff person that very morning.
MCCOLLINS: Attacking a staff person, I didn't see him attack anyone. He did not attack anyone. That's the point. The point is this is what they do.
WASHINGTON: The point is, Anderson, you have to...
COOPER: Let Cheryl finish, then Marie, you can join in.
WASHINGTON: OK.
MCCOLLINS: The point is they torture disabled children. Exactly what you see on the video is exactly what they do.
WASHINGTON: That is not true.
MCCOLLINS: The crazy part of all of this is that it is true.
WASHINGTON: That is not true.
MCCOLLINS: They don't deny what they do. As you see my son getting shocked, running underneath the table, trying to get away from them. Then they pull him out and tie him up on a board for seven hours and shock him 31 times. He never hit anyone. He didn't curse. He was screaming and crying for them to stop.
COOPER: Michael, how controlled are -- are these shocks administered? Because it does seem that, if you have teachers or assistants who are authorized to shock kids, that can very easily lead to abuse.
FLAMMIA: Right. And that's why it doesn't happen that way. The clinicians have to get the treatment plans approved by the court. The treatment plans have specific behaviors and only those behaviors that can be treated. The behaviors are chosen based on how dangerous they are and how they lead to dangerous behavior. So...
COOPER: Is it true what Greg says, though, in your opinion, that if a student stands up out of a seat to go to the bathroom and it's not authorized...
FLAMMIA: No. It's absurd. As you pointed out, Anderson, he worked there three years, never made a complaint, signed statements saying he had never seen any abusive treatment. So it's just utter lies.
MCCOLLINS: But we see it on the video of my son not taking off his coat and being shocked 31 times as a result.
FLAMMIA: Again that day -- that day started with...
MILLER: I think people can watch the video now and see the truth for themselves. I think people can watch -- the nice thing that people can now watch on the video and see for themselves what happened to Andre, the school saying things that it's not true, it's like a bee sting.
But people can see for the first time, go to Change.org and see what the video -- see for themselves what happened to Andre. This is the first time that people are permitted to see for themselves.
FLAMMIA: Anderson, come by the school any time unannounced. We'd be happy -- happy to show you around the school. You can see it for yourself.
COOPER: OK. Michael, appreciate it. Marie, as well. Cheryl and Greg, I know it's a difficult topic for you. I appreciate you discussing it.
MILLER: Thank you.
FLAMMIA: Thank you.
COOPER: We'll continue to follow it.
Authorities say they found the man responsible for two murders on Mississippi highways. Details ahead of how police tracked down the suspect.
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ISHA SESAY, CNNI ANCHOR: I'm Isha Sesay with a "360 News & Business Bulletin."
New details in the murder of Estrella Carrera, a Chicago woman who was found stabbed to death days after her wedding. According to an FBI affidavit, authorities tracked the cell phone of her husband and suspected killer, Arnoldo Jimenez, to the Texas-Mexico border. Jimenez told an associate he was going to Mexico where his parents live.
Mississippi officers say they caught the man they believe gunned down two people last week along interstate highways. Twenty-eight- year-old James Willie is facing charges of kidnapping, rape and murder in one of the killings.
The jury in John Edwards' corruption trial ended its first day of deliberations without reaching a verdict. They'll reconvene on Monday.
And despite all the hype, Facebook's IPO fell apart, I should say. The social network's shares ended the day right near the offering price just over $38.
Still, the biggest IPO in history raised $16 billion.
We'll be right back.
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COOPER: That's it for us. Thanks for watching. "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.
