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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Weak Jobs Report; Judge Revokes George Zimmerman's Bail
Aired June 01, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 10:00 here on the East Coast.
And we begin tonight with the Trayvon Martin case and a sharp blow to George Zimmerman's credibility, not to mention the end of his freedom. He's facing trial on second-degree murder charges and now he's going back to jail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE KENNETH LESTER JR., SEMINOLE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: At this time, revoke his bond, place him in no bond status, find that good cause exists based upon the material misrepresentations that the court relied upon, order him to surrender himself within 48 hours to the sheriff of Seminole County.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, Zimmerman's yet to turn himself in. The judge today ruled the way he did after hearing arguments that Zimmerman's wife, Shellie, lied at the bond hearing in April about their ability to make bail.
Here she is that day testifying by phone, first being sworn in, then not telling the truth.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth so help you God?
SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN, WIFE OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you of any financial means where you can assist in those costs?
ZIMMERMAN: Not -- not that I'm aware of.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, because the judge believed the Zimmermans to be strapped for cash, Zimmerman was granted a low bail, $150,000, of which he only had to pay $15,000 out of pocket.
What Mrs. Zimmerman did not say is that the couple actually had more than $150,000 in donations in a PayPal account.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: The defendant through Ms. Zimmerman lied to this court about the amount of money they had. Now, I would argue to the court that that is an egregious violation in terms of the representations that were made to this court. It was misleading. And I don't know what other words to use other than it was a blatant lie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, what's really interesting is that in addition the court has transcripts of a call, a telephone call between Zimmerman and his wife last month allegedly where they were talking in code about money, talking in hundreds, when in fact they had -- were actually talking about tens of thousands of dollars.
Quote: "In my account, do I have at least a hundred dollars?" George Zimmerman asks.
"No," she tells him, "and eventually says it's more like $155."
What they're talking about is $100,000 and $155,000. There's also the question of Zimmerman's passport. He handed in an expiring one over to the court and kept a second, more recent one. None of it though sat well with Judge Lester. And at one point, he had this to say to the defense attorney, Mark O'Mara, the judge asking, "Does your client get to sit there like a potted palm and let you lead me down the primrose path?"
Well, just moments ago, I spoke with Mr. O'Mara and with the Martin family attorney, Benjamin Crump.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Mark, have you spoken with George Zimmerman since today's ruling?
MARK O'MARA, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Yes, I have.
COOPER: What was his response?
O'MARA: Well, you know, frustrated because he now has to sort of come out of the hiding that he's in.
He understands the court's ruling. I have had a good conversation with him about it. We're going to have a conversation with the judge to try to explain it away. And hopefully that will be worthwhile and we will get back out on bond.
COOPER: Does -- I mean, does he admit that he tried to mislead the court or does he say he tried to mislead the court?
O'MARA: Well, there's no question that they knew about the money, and actually in a previous correspondence to the judge, we had acknowledged that. The question of whether or not they presented it properly, I think it was somewhat misleading to the court. I have gone over that with George. I think you need to realize that we're still talking about a 28-year-old who, you know, is being charged with a crime he does not believe he committed. And his whole life has been turned upside-down. So I think it all needs to be kept in context.
COOPER: The prosecutor, though, is saying that he and his wife had phone conversations that they knew were likely being recorded because he was in prison at the time, and that she was actually at the bank where the PayPal account was and that they were talking in code, which -- which seems to -- is relatively sophisticated, if that's true.
O'MARA: Well, the code that they were using, to the extent that they were using a code, if you read the transcripts, if they were talking about $180,000, they were talking about $18 or $90 was $9, so I don't think that it was a particularly sophisticated code that they were using.
And, again, as I have said before, if, in fact, they were trying to deceive the judge with some intent to hide away the money, I don't believe that they would have turned it over five days later when the first conversation about it actually occurred.
COOPER: Ben, how important a ruling do you think this is?
BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF TRAYVON MARTIN: Well, I certainly think it's the most important ruling in the case thus far.
COOPER: Wait. The most important? How so?
CRUMP: The most important thus far because it makes us all focus on the credibility of George Zimmerman, which is the central issue in this case.
As everybody looks at the evidence, the only evidence that Trayvon (INAUDIBLE) George Zimmerman is his version. And the other objective evidence, the 911 calls, the situation where he says he was getting out of his car, that all suggests that he's pursuing Trayvon, that he confronts Trayvon.
So, it is only George Zimmerman's word that says Trayvon attacked him. So, that's why I think it's very important, the ruling that Judge Lester did today, based on the law.
COOPER: Mark, does this hurt his credibility if he was misleading in court? And you downplayed this code, but it does show -- I mean, if it was an intentional desire to mislead somebody listening in on the phone, that's another example of being misleading.
O'MARA: Everybody's credibility who's going to be a witness in this case, and quite honestly even, posthumously, Trayvon Martin's credibility, is going to be an issue when we get in front of a jury.
And certainly the fact that George Zimmerman may have allowed a misrepresentation to occur may affect his credibility. Quite honestly, I don't think that is going to get in front a jury. I don't think it's the type of relevant evidence that would get before a jury.
But we also need to keep in mind that what really is going to be important in this case is the forensic evidence, the entirety of the evidence, which will include the eyewitness statements, the forensic evidence of the injuries, the forensic evidence regarding the gunshot. All of that is going to be taken in context. And one part of that, one facet is the credibility of all those people involved, certainly, should George decide to testify, his credibility as well.
COOPER: Mark, about the second passport, you say that Zimmerman did what he needed to do and that the responsibility for the court not knowing about it is your fault. How so?
O'MARA: On the 26th, when I was first talked to George, and then coincidentally I was talking to him about the money and the check, he told me about a second passport that they had found when they left the state. They gathered up all their belongings, left the state, uncovered a second passport.
He told me about that. He forwarded to me in a FedEx package the second passport and the check at one time. As it turns out, we have good documentation that it came to me on the 26th. On the 27th, I did a notice of filing to give that to the court file.
We were at court, and, literally, it was left in my pleading file until this morning, when, Bernie, the prosecutor, first said to me, we found out about this second passport. I said, hold on, I have it. And I have had it since the 27th or 26th of April. My apologies, but it's always been here.
COOPER: Benjamin, how did Trayvon Martin's family react to the news today?
CRUMP: Well, they certainly were relieved to hear that Zimmerman's bond would be revoked because they would rather the killer of their son remain in custody until they have the trial.
And I just have to say this, Anderson. With respect to Mr. O'Mara, there is going to be -- the testimony that he -- that Mr. -- the special prosecutor's office say they lied on (INAUDIBLE) as the court said, that's relevant. Nobody's going to say Trayvon Martin lied in the court. Nobody's going to say he did a material falsehood. And I think that's important to this case.
COOPER: Mark O'Mara, I appreciate you being on, and, Benjamin Crump as well. Thank you both very much.
O'MARA: Thank you, Anderson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Let's dig deeper on the implications of this dramatic day in court with criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos, also legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin.
So, as a criminal defense attorney, Mark, I'm curious to get your take on what happened.
I mean, has Zimmerman done real damage to his case, because if you hear Benjamin Crump, he is saying this is the most important ruling because it totally destroys Zimmerman's credibility about what happened the night of the shooting?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think -- I don't think that it totally damages his credibility.
Is it bad? Yes. There's no sugarcoating of it. I think you might remember, Anderson, we talked about this the night you led off, and I think you were the one who reported first about the money that was in that account. And I said at the time, I know a lot of judges that would have remanded him into custody right there and then.
So this judge gave him quite a bit of string to play out before remanding him into custody. And I would tend to agree with Mr. Crump. I that it will -- if he takes the stand, this is something, especially because it dealt with this judge in this courtroom, that's something this judge is going to let in.
Having said all of that, I don't think that it's going to be the death knell for the defense in this case. In fact, I think in a lot of ways, Mark O'Mara has already fallen on the grenade, so to speak, by saying, look, the second passport was my fault. I had this. I also brought it to the court's attention about the money in the account as soon as I found out.
And I think, to Mark's credit, he hasn't laid it off on the prior lawyers. But I think a lot of this can be laid off on those two clowns that were representing Zimmerman beforehand, who should have informed Zimmerman, number one, look, when you go into custody, remember something. They're taping everything you say. So don't think you're going to outsmart the cops or the prosecutors by talking in code or anything else.
It's the first thing you tell a client when they're in custody, is, don't talk to me, don't talk to anybody when you're on the phone about material facts or anything else that the prosecutor is going to have unless you want that broadcast on CNN the next day.
COOPER: And, Sunny, Mark O'Mara is a good attorney. And he's in a difficult position and he's trying to do the best he can. And because he was mislead clearly by George Zimmerman, because he didn't know about this money, he wouldn't have gone into court making this argument had he known about this money.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right.
COOPER: But he's now arguing, well, you know, it wasn't a very complicated code they were talking in.
Whether it was complicated or a smart code or not, it does seem like he and his wife were trying to mislead the court.
HOSTIN: It certainly seems like that. And the judge found that. And I have a copy of the motion in front of me.
And I think it's pretty clear that they not only knew that they were being taped, that they tried to be evasive about that. They were sort of trying to speak in code. And I have got to tell you, Anderson, I do think it's really significant, the judge's finding, revoking his bond and finding out that he had been dishonest and misled the court
And that is because, should this case have a stand your ground hearing, that's a hearing just in front of the judge. So, it will be the judge's determination as to whether or not George Zimmerman gets immunity from prosecution. That is now going to be in front the same judge that found that he was dishonest.
And so I think that it is very significant that now this judge has been placed in a position that he believes that George Zimmerman can be dishonest. And if this case is about self-defense, the only version of events that leads to -- one to believe self-defense is George Zimmerman. So his credibility is everything.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: That's exactly...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: If this gets to a jury trial, Mark, this could be brought in? This would definitely be brought in?
GERAGOS: Well, this is what -- I think Sunny brings up a brilliant point. And I apologize for having to agree with her.
(LAUGHTER)
HOSTIN: Thank you, Mark.
GERAGOS: The fact is -- I know. It's Friday. I'm looking forward to the weekend, Sunny.
(LAUGHTER)
GERAGOS: The problem here is, is that it became a lot more likely now that there will be a jury trial.
Sunny's right. I have been saying for a long time that I thought that he stood a real chance, a significant chance of getting this case thrown out at the stand your ground hearing.
Well, what judge is going to want to believe anything that somebody tells him when he's willing to equivocate, and that's the euphemism here, on the bond hearing?
So, I think it's a lot more likely that this thing goes to trial. And it is likely that a judge lets this in to a trial, because the judge is going to say, look, this guy has been in front of me with the same lawyer, the same prosecutors, in front of the same judge, on the same fact pattern, and told me stuff that was not true or that I found not to be true.
That's -- it's not a good day for the defense.
COOPER: Yes. We will leave on a happy note of agreement between you two.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Mark Geragos, thank you, Sunny Hostin as well.
Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. Follow me on Twitter. Do you think this does hurt George Zimmerman's credibility? Tweet me right now @AndersonCooper.
A lot more to talk about, including today's rotten jobs report. It's almost certain to make it tougher for President Obama to make his case for reelection. We will look at that.
We will also look at one of Mitt Romney's talking points on jobs, an attack on the president that is simply not true -- "Keeping Them Honest" next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, "Keeping Them Honest" now on the campaign trail, May unemployment numbers came out today. And if you haven't heard it already, they're pretty grim, only 69,000 jobs created, the worst in a year, the jobless rate, meantime, rising a tenth of a point to 8.2 percent, not good numbers for the country, or the White House or the Obama campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The economy's growing again, but it's not growing as fast as we want it to grow. Our businesses have created almost 4. 3 million new jobs over the last 27 months. But, as we learned in today's jobs report, we're still not creating them as fast as we want.
And just like at this time last year, our economy is still facing some serious headwinds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, President Obama there talking about headwinds today, Mitt Romney calling the numbers, in his words, devastating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is very bad news for the American people, and the president is always quick to find someone to blame. First, it was George Bush and then it was Congress, ATM machines, Europe. He's always got someone, but the truth is the job of the president is to get America back to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, you can argue about who is to blame. It is true the president's job is to get America back to work, one of the jobs of the president.
And the economy is likely the issue that will decide this election, new CNN/ORC showing a slim three-point Obama lead and the economy issue number one.
However, in talking about President Obama's performance so far, Mr. Romney has also been saying something repeatedly that simply is not factually correct. Here he is last night on CBS News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: And, of course, domestically it's hard to call, what now, 39, 40 months of unemployment above 8 percent a success when even he said by now it would be in the 6 percent range. And by now, it is not. It's over 8.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, Mr. Romney has made this something of a theme, stating it a number of different ways over the course of the campaign. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: He said if we let him borrow $787 billion, he'd keep it below 8 percent. The stimulus, by the way, borrowing $787 billion, the president said that would hold unemployment below 8 percent. He would keep unemployment below 8 percent. It has not been below 8 percent since.
He borrowed $787 billion right off the bat for a stimulus, said if he was able to do that, he would hold unemployment below 8 percent.
So-called stimulus that didn't stimulate, that that would hold unemployment below 8 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: All right, now, you can decide for yourself how well or how poorly President Obama has been handling the jobless issue.
However, Governor Romney's claim that from the beginning that President Obama promised or otherwise indicated that his policies, namely the stimulus, would keep the unemployment rate below 8 percent, that's just not true.
When House Speaker John Boehner made the same claim last fall, PolitiFact reported that it -- quote -- "could find no evidence of anyone in the administration making a public pledge that the stimulus would keep the unemployment rate below 8 percent."
"The Washington Post"'s fact-checker gave the claim three Pinocchios and pointed out that the Romney's campaign own Web site actually helps refutes their candidate's own claim. The Web site attributes the promise not to President Obama or even then candidate Obama, but to a projection, not a promise, written about the effects of a possible stimulus by two members of the transition team on January 9, before then Mr. Obama took office.
The two staffers, Jared Bernstein and Christina Romer, would go on to become top economic advisers in the new administration.
So, back to that very real and very troubling unemployment number, if politics is all about the trend, after three straight months of bad economic news, the trend is now working against President Obama and for Governor Romney, no doubt about it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Joining us now, Republican strategist Mary Matalin, also Jen Psaki, who was deputy communications director in the Obama White House.
Jen, the president may not have promised that unemployment would be below 8 percent by now, but you probably thought it would be, didn't you? I mean, didn't everybody at the White House?
JENNIFER PSAKI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, look, there were predictions made early on where nobody knew how deep the hole was.
And since that time, over the last 27 months, 4.3 million jobs have been created in the private sector. That's a pretty strong record to stand on. I think most people in the White House today and people across the country were disappointed to see the numbers today. Of course they wanted them to be better. And that's why the president has called for more steps and for Congress to move forward on more steps to help the economy continue moving forward.
COOPER: Mary, the Obama campaign is now focusing on Mitt Romney's record of job creation as governor of Massachusetts. Unemployment did drop I think from 5-something to 4.7 percent under his term. But as every Democrat will tell you, particularly your husband will mention a couple times on this show, they were 47th in job creation.
Is that enough to kind of blunt the bad economic numbers we're seeing now?
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Anderson, I don't need to tell you, you don't need to listen to everything that James Carville says, particularly when it comes to the economy.
I think every American would appreciate, would revere having a 4.7 percent growth -- we have had over 40 months of over 8 percent unemployment. And you can talk about jobs created, but if the labor force participation was today as it was when Obama took office, we'd have over 10 percent, and some say as high as 15 percent unemployment.
People are dropping out of the work force. They're going to be looking at this president's record. And they will take into account what he says about Romney, but that also undermines the -- a very big positive for this president. He was going to be transformational. He was going to be post-partisan.
Now he's the most partisan. And that really hurts him with one of his dispositive constituencies, which was independents. They don't like what he is going to have to do to take out Romney.
COOPER: Jen, to Mary's point, the Obama campaign now basically spent the first part of the week focusing on Bain. Now it's looking at the governor's record as governor of Massachusetts. Did the Bain strategy not work?
PSAKI: No, actually, I think the campaign will continue to talk about it.
No, they weren't attacking private equity. That's an industry where -- it's an important industry in this country. There are supporters who work in private equity. What they were saying was that -- and what the campaign will continue to say is that Mitt Romney is using his experience at Bain as evidence that he's a job creator, yet that role he had there was to make money for investors, not to create jobs.
Nobody in the private equity industry thinks that it is to create jobs. And so that is not an ingredient or a fact about his record that means he's a better choice.
COOPER: Mary, in our CNN poll today, in the newest poll, voters split about -- pretty evenly -- about which candidate could actually manage the economy best. But if you look at the one area there was some real distance between the two, by almost 20 points, voters think Obama is most likely to understand their problems, more likely than Romney.
Is that a concern?
MATALIN: It would be a concern if that question made any sense whatsoever.
What this poll shows, as is consistent with what previous polls and all the other polls, if you go to RealClearPolitics, show is that on the number one issue, the economy, two-thirds of Americans say that under Obama's watch, their personal circumstances haven't -- either haven't improved or are worse and greater than two-thirds say they expect them to continue being worse into the future.
There's a -- we got a 70 percent wrong track. That's just -- and that's all on Obama. And they don't like -- it's discordant for them to hear consistently, well, as Jen has been trying to say -- she does a very good be job at what she is supposed to be doing -- it was worse than we thought, and we have had all these headwinds, and it was Bush, and it was this, and it was Japan, and it was all of this.
Reagan didn't do that. W. Bush didn't do that. Jack Kennedy didn't do that. And it -- that undercuts his leadership. So, they ought to just do what their only hope, really. They think their only hope is to try to destroy Romney.
Their hope might be, although they would lose this way, is to say, here's our Keynesian philosophy of government and we're going to put this up against a Republican or a conservative philosophy of economics and government and let the chips fall where they may.
And you know who's siding with the Republican, the conservative? It's not just Bill Clinton. It's governors. It's senators, current and former. It's the president's own advisers. It's like he's the outlier in his own party at this point on economic philosophy.
COOPER: Jennifer Psaki, appreciate it.
Mary Matalin, thanks.
PSAKI: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Well, there's a lot of stuff happening tonight. One congressman is outright calling Pakistan an enemy, not an ally of the U.S., for imposing a long prison sentence on the Pakistani doctor who tried to help the U.S. track down Osama bin Laden. He's calling for drastic action, cutoff of all aid. We will hear from him next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, there's new charges filed today against the American soldier accused of murdering more than a dozen Afghan civilians back in March. And the defense says those new charges may actually help their case. We will explain ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: "Digging Deeper" now into the criminal case against the Pakistani doctor who helped the United States or tried to help the United States track down and kill Osama bin Laden.
His name is Shakil Afridi. There are reports today that his lawyer filed an appeal of the 33-year sentence he was given last week by a tribal court in Pakistan.
But here's where the case gets complicated. Officials initially told CNN and others that Afridi was charged with treason for spying for the U.S. He was accused of setting up a phony vaccination program in Abbottabad to help the U.S. try to figure out if bin Laden was in fact hiding in that compound.
Dr. Afridi was arrested by Pakistani authorities shortly after bin Laden was killed. But after he was sentenced, court papers reveal that Afridi was convicted for his ties to an Islamic militant group in Pakistan -- or I should say alleged ties -- not for helping the CIA.
The militant group, by the way, denies any link to Dr. Afridi. And a key member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee called the conviction a sham.
Congressman Dana Rohrabacher says there's no question that Dr. Afridi is being punished for assisting the U.S. He's now calling for decisive retaliation against Pakistan. I spoke to him earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Congressman, you said the fact that Pakistan has sentenced Doctor Afridi to 33 years in prison, you say it's decisive proof Pakistan sees itself at war with the U.S.?
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: That's correct. Pakistan would not be charging one of its citizens with treason for helping us bring to justice the man who murdered 3,000 of our citizens unless Pakistan was on the side of the man who murdered 3,000 of our citizens, and that speaks for itself.
COOPER: This was a so-called tribal court, which is a different system than the -- than the official national court in Pakistan. So it was basically a local tribal council that said he had this link to this terrorist group. Do you read anything into that, that maybe that's a sign that there is some wiggle room for negotiation?
ROHRABACHER: No. I think that we should quit looking for signs of some minuscule message being sent by somebody in the government of Pakistan to us and take a look at what is right in front of our face, and that is that the Pakistani government has been using the billions of dollars that they have received from us in aid to do us harm.
Let's quit trying to bend over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt to people who have proven time and again that they don't like us. They are our enemy, and they're doing things to kill our people.
COOPER: So you believe the Pakistani government knew Osama bin Laden was in Abbottabad?
ROHRABACHER: I think anybody who has any real serious doubts that the Pakistani government wasn't giving safe haven to Osama bin Laden all of these years, that that person is living in Never- neverland. That government is acting like our enemy, and we shouldn't give them any more money or any more support.
COOPER: The U.S. has given Pakistan around $20 billion in military economic aid to Pakistan since 9/11. You've been -- as you just said you've been calling to cut off all of that aid.
But don't -- whether we are happy with the relationship with Pakistan or not, don't we need that relationship? Based on what's happening in Afghanistan. Pakistan right now is preventing us from resupplying -- permitting the U.S. from resupplying troops in Pakistan -- in Afghanistan through Pakistan. Don't -- don't we need some sort of leverage over Pakistan?
ROHRABACHER: Pakistan is the main instigator of the problems we're trying to solve in Afghanistan. They have been arming the terrorist groups. They were the country that created the Taliban.
No, we should not be trying to find reasons of how we could work with Pakistan. We should instead find reasons of how we can cut off our relationship with that hateful country, that country that shows how much -- how they despise western civilization, and especially the United States.
And let's enter in, try to find a new strategic relationship, perhaps with India, that would give us the type of leverage in South Asia to play a positive force.
COOPER: So you're not concerned about losing any kind of leverage over Pakistan, over their nuclear weapons, over what goes on, over support of the troops in Afghanistan through Pakistan?
ROHRABACHER: I don't think that we have any leverage on Pakistan. I think they've been playing a game, and a wicked and evil game at that, that has cost American lives.
COOPER: And as for this Doctor Afridi, do you think the U.S. should make some sort of a deal to try to get him out?
ROHRABACHER: I think we should try our very best to get -- to free Doctor Afridi. He risked his life. He put himself in harm's way, and we are abandoning him. We can't even get a resolution on the floor of Congress.
We can't get our president to lay down the law to Pakistan that you're not going to treat this -- this person, who is a hero to the United States, in such a manner. Because if you do this to Doctor Afridi, you are doing it to the people of the United States.
COOPER: Congressman Rohrabacher, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, we're getting new insight into how John Edwards avoided a felony conviction. He left court a happy man after jurors deadlocked on all but one of six counts that he was charged with.
They deliberated for more than 50 hours. We now know what went on in the jury room and why the jurors -- we're going to talk to three jurors, all of whom say they think he's guilty of something but that the prosecution just didn't make its case.
They also -- I'm going to also ask them whether they think John Edwards was a good liar. Hear what they say next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: She lost her three young daughters and parents in a house fire. Now she's suing the city for its actions after the flames were put out. The legal battle when we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: A "360 Follow," the jurors in the John Edwards trial are now free to talk. We saw them for the first time as they left the courthouse just yesterday. We're going to hear from three of them in just a moment.
They deliberated more than 50 hours, over nine days but could only agree on one count, which they cleared Edwards on. They deadlocked on the rest, and the judge declared a mistrial on those five charges.
It was a big victory for John Edwards, who was facing a possible 30-year prison sentence. The former Democratic presidential candidate denied glow (ph), but he wasn't entirely humble either. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN EDWARDS, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: While I do not believe I did anything illegal or ever thought I was doing anything illegal, I did an awful, awful lot that was wrong, and there is no one else responsible for my sins.
I don't think God's through with me. I really believe he thinks there's still some good things I can do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Any plans he has for his immediate future is going to hinge on whether the Justice Department decides to retry him on the five deadlocked counts. A lot of legal experts believe the government's case against him is weak and that they're not going to bring it back to court.
He was accused of violating campaign finance laws by using money from two wealthy donors to hide his affair with Rielle Hunter while he was running for president in 2008.
The daughter they conceived is now four years old. The trial testimony was filled with intimate, embarrassing details. Edwards was about as unsympathetic a defendant as they come. His defense team argued the money was a gift, not a campaign contribution. Edwards used it to hide the affair from his dying wife, Elizabeth Edwards, and not for political gain.
Enough of the jurors bought the argument. Joining me now are three jurors: jury foreman David Recchion, along with Ladonna Foster and Cindy Aquaro.
So all three of you believe that he was guilty on some of the charges. Why do you -- what did you think he was guilty of? Do you know?
DAVID RECCHION, JURY FOREMAN: As it related to him being guilty, I think the charges were very clearly defined by the prosecution, and the instructions were defined by the judge. So we applied the rule of law based on the judge, Judge Eagles, and also the evidence that was able to support, at least my opinion, in some of the cases where there was guilt.
COOPER: So you think he did do something wrong but they just couldn't prove it? They didn't have the evidence to prove it, is that accurate?
RECCHION: That would be my assessment.
LADONNA FOSTER, JUROR: We actually wish that there had been more evidence and that we were actually able to follow the money to John Edwards, but that wasn't the case.
COOPER: How significant was it that you didn't hear from Rielle Hunter, that you didn't hear from Bunny Mellon, some of the other people who had obviously passed away?
CINDY AQUARO, JUROR: That was one of the ones that I said I wish we could have heard from, was Bunny Mellon to see -- I think we would have been able to follow the money more if we heard from Bunny Mellon.
COOPER: Do you think, though, he was trying to use money -- campaign money to pay for Rielle Hunter? Bottom line.
AQUARO: I thought he was. We just -- it could not be proved. The evidence was not there to prove it, but I felt that's what he was doing.
COOPER: How weak was the prosecution's argument? I mean, their main witness was Andrew Young, and a lot of people watching his testimony sort of felt he was not all that credible a witness.
RECCHION: All throughout the process, our responsibility was to, as we looked at the evidence, also assess the credibility of all the witnesses. So the government had a tough job to do with a witness that wasn't as credible that was needed to be in order to prove guilt.
COOPER: Did you want to see John Edwards on the stand as a juror?
RECCHION: I personally did, but I don't think that it would have helped it. I don't know about y'all.
FOSTER: Somewhat, yes. I would have liked to have heard his voice. Those questions that I felt like could have been asked and we would have gotten some really good and honest answers, as honest as we would have gotten.
COOPER: There's a now sort of infamous interview he did with ABC News, with Bob Woodruff, where he was -- it was sort of his confessional interview, in which he wasn't really confessing. He continued to lie about the paternity of the child.
And we talked to our legal expert last night, Jeff Toobin, who said that if he had taken the stand, they would have played that interview, and you would have seen him, how he looked when he lied, and it would have hurt his credibility. Do you think seeing him lying on camera would have affected you guys?
AQUARO: It did.
COOPER: It did? Having seen that already? FOSTER: Having seen that. We watched it in the courtroom and we actually watched it during deliberations.
COOPER: Right.
RECCHION: That was the first time that I had seen it. So when I saw that interview, it definitely demonstrated that he had lied and said some things that were untrue.
COOPER: And when I saw that interview I thought, "Wow, that's pretty effective." Because he's sort of attacked it, like that's from a tabloid. You know, you've got to think about the source. He kind of made the interviewer feel bad for even asking the question.
RECCHION: Yes. I definitely did, and I don't know about the others.
AQUARO: Yes. I definitely thought that he was a good liar.
FOSTER: Probably at the time of the interview, yes. But once you know all the facts and saw how he kind of danced around several questions, no, not really.
COOPER: Do you think he should be retried? You don't want to be serving on the jury again.
RECCHION: I'd rather not do that again. What I would like -- I mean, I think justice has to prevail, and in this case justice to me was he had a fair trial, to be innocent before guilt -- before proven guilty. I think that part is really good.
I do like, however -- I would like to see some change made so that future candidates understand that these activities aren't acceptable.
COOPER: Changing -- you want to see changing campaign finance laws, because under the current guidelines it's a difficult case to make?
RECCHION: That's a great point, yes.
COOPER: So you all kind of think that, if there were some sort of change in campaign finance laws, then your job would have been easier to figure out, to follow the money?
AQUARO: Yes. I definitely think so.
FOSTER: Based on the current definition, yes.
COOPER: Yes. Well, you all did a remarkable job. I mean, it's not an easy thing. And, you know, our entire system, as I'm sure the judge has said to you, depends on you all doing your job. And I think it's great you were able to separate, you know, preconceived notions about him from what the actual evidence showed, regardless of what the result was.
Thank you very much.
AQUARO: Thank you.
RECCHION: Do you mind if I add one comment?
COOPER: Sure.
RECCHION: I just wanted to say it was really an honor. The jury, the 12 members and the four alternates, they were an amazing group. It was a tremendous honor to serve with them. It definitely highlights the value of our judicial system, but it also demonstrated some weaknesses as it relates to...
COOPER: How tough was it in that deliberation room? I mean, how...
FOSTER: It got really intense at times.
COOPER: Did it really?
FOSTER: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
COOPER: Screaming, yelling?
FOSTER: Yes. Yes.
COOPER: Really? Wow. Like a movie.
FOSTER: Your skin became very tough.
COOPER: Is that -- really?
RECCHION: But it was interesting, though, because I had a responsibility as foreman to help facilitate the discussion, and it seemed like that was the hardest facilitation job I'd ever had.
COOPER: Is that right?
FOSTER: He's a mediator now.
COOPER: Is that right?
RECCHION: We all took roles and responsibility in facilitating, and I was really comfortable with the way that everybody interacted. But every time there was some high intensity and emotion, we all kind of had our own moments to step out and say, "Enough is enough. Let's bring this back down to the facts."
COOPER: Again, thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate it.
RECCHION: Our pleasure.
FOSTER: Thank you.
COOPER: Well, coming up, a week after the massacre in Houla, Syria, and a day after Syria's own utterly absurd report on what happened, the U.N., is launching an investigation into what happened. Details ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Susan Hendricks with a "360 News & Business Bulletin."
A fierce storm tore through northeast Maryland, pounding the town of Bel Air. Buildings collapsed, roofs were torn off, tree limbs and light poles knocked down. The fire department tells CNN affiliate WMAR at least four people were hurt.
The U.N. Human Rights Council has authorized an investigation into the massacre last week of 108 Syrian civilians in Houla. Russia, China and Cuba voted against that resolution.
Syria says armed terrorist groups carried out the massacre, a claim at odds with survivor accounts.
And the American soldier accused of murdering 16 civilians in Afghanistan in March is now facing steroid and alcohol abuse charges. Staff Sergeant Robert Bales' lawyer indicated part of the defense may focus on whether his client used steroids and who supplied them.
How about Wall Street? It had its bloodiest day this year with stocks dropping 2 percent following ugly jobs reports. The Dow lost 275 points for the day, erasing all of its gains for the year.
And baseball history tonight in New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He struck him out!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has happened. In their 51st season, Johan Santana has thrown the first no-hitter in New York Mets history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENDRICKS: And there it is, Johan Santana struck out David Freese on the 134th pitch of the game for the final out of the 8-0 win. Congratulations to Johan Santana and the Mets.
Up next, you don't want to miss it. A special birthday surprise for Anderson. Keep it here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Time for "The RidicuList." And tonight we're adding the Miss USA pageant, which is taking place Sunday in Las Vegas.
That's right. I'm putting the pageant preemptively on "The RidicuList." That's how I roll on Friday nights.
ISHA SESAY, CNNI ANCHOR: Yes. COOPER: What's going on?
SESAY: Hold up. Come on now. You had to know this was coming.
COOPER: This is so annoying. I actually didn't. You know what? I actually didn't. I actually totally did not know this was coming.
SESAY: No "RidicuList" tonight because it's your birthday.
COOPER: Good lord. Good lord. I don't know why I didn't -- I didn't even think this was going to happen. I really had no idea this was going to happen.
SESAY: Honestly, how do you not know that every year we're going to set out to get you? Come on now. So you know, you see, the music's playing. You've got the confetti, and you're already giggling.
COOPER: Bob is just running around. All right.
SESAY: Last year, as you know, Mr. Cooper...
COOPER: Yes.
SESAY: ... we gave you a dog and pony show, literally.
COOPER: Yes. Yes, there was a dog and pony show.
SESAY: You really -- don't worry about the confetti. You look great. So I come bearing cake and look what else. You remember this?
COOPER: Oh, this was the dog and pony show. Yes, I do remember this.
SESAY: You see the things we do for you.
COOPER: Yes. Yes. I appreciated that. Thank you.
SESAY: Yes, but it's not over yet. This year...
COOPER: Are we done?
SESAY: No. This year, we have an extra special guest for you. Let's see if you know who it is.
COOPER: Really?
ERIN "TURTLEMAN" BROWN, HOST, ANIMAL PLANET'S "CALL OF THE WILD": Waaahhhoooo. Wild action!
COOPER: Are you kidding me? Turtleman? Oh, my God.
BROWN: Yes, buddy, what's up?
SESAY: Yes, indeed.
COOPER: Turtle -- I can't believe, Turtleman, you're here. And, geez, that's a big turtle.
BROWN: Watch out, buddy. That's live action there, partner.
COOPER: That's a live what?
BROWN: That's live action end there. You don't want to grab that end.
COOPER: Live what?
BROWN: That's a live action end.
COOPER: Live action end. OK. I don't understand what you...
BROWN: Easy partner, with your hand. This thing will snap it off.
COOPER: It will snap your hand off?
BROWN: Yes. It will snap your hand plum off, dude.
COOPER: You know, I've followed you for years. We've been obsessed with you.
BROWN: Yes. That's why I brought you -- that's why I came here tonight. This was in New York's park. I caught it out of the pond down there for you. I almost got in trouble, man. The cops got after me, and I run in here. Luckily, we got these studio guys that was taking up...
COOPER: How did you get this through TSA security?
BROWN: They knew me.
COOPER: They saw Turtleman coming. They were like, let him through. Just let him through.
BROWN: Just let him through because they knew you was a big fan. They wanted me to see you. Live action! Anderson Cooper just got him some. Wahoo!
COOPER: Wow.
BROWN: What do you think about it?
COOPER: I'm really stunned. I really -- I am stunned, yes. The turtle is blocking my key light but that's OK. I'm not too worried about that.
So let me -- how did you start -- how did you become Turtleman? How did you start -- how did you know that you had this skill to catch turtles?
BROWN: Uncle Phillip taught me how to do it when I was a little kid, seven years old...
COOPER: Is that right?
BROWN: ... and I just taught myself some new techniques.
COOPER: Have you ever been bitten?
BROWN: Oh, yes, I've been bit through the hand there. Through the hand there. Seven stitches right there. Got bit through the palm there. I nearly bled to death.
COOPER: Wow.
BROWN: Had it cauterized. It wouldn't quit bleeding, dude.
COOPER: You had to cauterize your own wound? That's how you roll?
BROWN: went to the doctor.
COOPER: Oh, you did go to the doctor?
BROWN: Yes.
SESAY: Before we run out of time -- I hate to -- I hate to break up the turtle romance.
COOPER: OK.
SESAY: But we can't have a birthday without a cake. We brought you a turtle. We had the cake boss, the real cake boss -- pay attention, Cooper.
COOPER: I'm listening.
SESAY: We had the actual cake boss put one together.
COOPER: Wow.
BROWN: Wahooo.
SESAY: They whipped up a cake. Let's bring it out.
COOPER: That is crazy.
BROWN: Birthday cake, man.
COOPER: How are you? How's it going?
BROWN: The cake man. That one don't bite.
COOPER: That is crazy. Wow.
BROWN: Ain't that neat?
COOPER: Let me go stand next -- let me quickly go stand next to this thing. See how it goes.
BROWN: Let's see.
COOPER: See how this looks. Actually have a camera there. There you go. There's the turtle. Look at that. Wow. Is this all really edible?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
COOPER: Wow.
BROWN: I'm going to eat this here.
COOPER: Amazing. Turtleman, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you so much.
SESAY: OK. You can see more tomorrow on "Cake Boss," which airs Monday at 9 p.m. on TLC.
Also, we want to give a big thanks to Ernie Brown, Turtleman. His show, "Call of the Wild," can be seen on Animal Planet. It has new episodes this Sunday, at 10 p.m.
Happy birthday, Mr. Cooper.
COOPER: Thank you, Isha. Thank you, everyone. Appreciate it.
