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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Police: OSU Attack Possibly Terrorism; President-Elect Falsely Claims Millions Voted Illegally; Jill Stein Speaks Out On Recount Effort; Pence: "Number of Very Important Announcements Tomorrow"; W.H.: Trump, Obama Spoken A "Handful of Times". Aired 8-9p ET
Aired November 28, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:14] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
Day 20 of the Trump transition has been high on drama and intrigue. We'll get to all of that shortly.
But from internal feuding over whether Mitt Romney should be tapped to be secretary of state, to allegations of voter fraud, absent any evince at all coming from the president-elect, himself, to the recount effort being steered by green party candidate Jill Stein. She joins us tonight.
But, first, the breaking news from Ohio. Tonight, investigators are working to determine if an attack on the campus of Ohio State University was, in fact, terrorism. The source telling CNN the attacker posted grievances about attacks on Muslims on Facebook.
This morning, students just returning from Thanksgiving break came face to face with the unthinkable. A car drove into a crowd, a man with a knife jumped out. He hurt 11 people before he himself was shot dead.
Now, as we do on 360, in situations like this, we try not to overuse the attacker's name as to not to give him the attention he might crave. But what we do think is important is that you're aware of, and what else we're learning as authorities continue to look for clues.
Brynn Gingras has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tonight, university police naming the suspected attacker as OSU student Abdul Razak Ali Artan. A federal law enforcement official tells CNN he was a Somali citizen who lived in the area. A U.S. official says he was a legal permanent resident.
Investigators are still working on determining motive, and can't rule out terror at this point.
CHIEF KIM JACOBS, COLUMBUS, OHIO POLICE: We have to consider that it is that possibility. You know, we had an attack earlier this year with a man with a knife causing multiple injuries. So, we're always aware that that's the potential and we're going to continue to look at that. That's why our federal partners are and helping.
GINGRAS: Police say the attacker deliberately jumped the curb with a car and rammed into a group of pedestrians. A federal official tells CNN the car used in the attack was registered to a family member.
MONICA MOIL, PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY: Around 9:52 a.m., the emergency dispatch center got a report that a vehicle had struck pedestrians.
GINGRAS: He then continued to attack, slashing people with a knife.
CHIEF CRAIG STONE, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY POLICE: He exits the vehicle and used a butcher knife to start cutting pedestrians.
GINGRAS: Less than a minute later, the attacker was confronted by a police officer.
STONE: He engaged the suspect and he eliminated the threat. The suspect is DOA.
GINGRAS: Within minutes of the attack, a campus-wide alert went out reporting an active shooter on campus, run, hide, fight.
A federal law enforcement official tells CNN the gunshots reported may have been of the police officers shooting the attacker. On campus, students and faculty blocked doorways and hid while waiting for the all clear.
ANTHONY FALZERANO, OHIO STATE STUDENT: Our teacher ran and locked the door and at the same time we all saw a ton of -- we heard a bunch of sirens and a bunch of, like, cop cars all just started flooding towards that area.
RACHEL LEMASTER, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY EMPLOYEE: It's -- it's scary. It's really scary. We barricaded ourselves in our rooms like we were taught. Turned off our lights. And just hunkered down.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Brynn, it seems like the police officer who finally shot this attacker got there really quick. What more do we know about him?
GINGRAS: Well, we know, Anderson, that his name is Alan Horujko. He's 28 years old, hasn't even been part of the OSU police force for two years. So, very, very new to this department.
We also know at one point, he was an OSU student, himself. And, yes, law enforcement says he was in the right place at the right time, but at the same time, he did act quickly, killing the suspect in this in less than one minute when those attacks -- after those attacks, rather, started.
So, certainly, a lot of credit is owed to him because ten people were injured, all non-life threatening injuries, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes, Brynn Gingras, thanks very much, Brynn. CNN producer Shimon Prokupecz has been working the story as well. He
joins us now.
What more do you know about the attacker's social media posting? Because that's obviously something investigators are looking closely at.
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN PRODUCER: Yes, Anderson, actually, it's a big clue into his state of mind right now. It's really all that investigators have to go on. In the posting, which we're told by sources, the posting was posted sort of moments before, short time before the attack. But it's clear that it took some time to write.
It's pretty lengthy and he goes on a sort of tirade about how Muslims are being attacked by Americans. And that if the U.S. wanted lone- wolf attacks to stop, they would sort of stop killing Muslims is what he's saying.
It just goes on to this whole -- his issues with the United States and their treatment of Muslims and he doesn't really specify exactly why he's doing this. He does mention, and, again, we've seen this in other attacks, Anwar Awlaki, you know, this cleric who the U.S. killed years ago in the drone attack, whose name still surfaces in some of these attacks, folks look to him for inspiration.
[20:05:00] COOPER: You know, sometimes the more investigators look at these people, they use sort of terrorism as a cloak, but also they have other problems going on. Are there any other signs about what was going on in this person's life?
PROKUPECZ: Yes, there are some other clues. The family, specifically, the mother has told community members, has told law enforcement he was having some problems at school. She says the problems were with grades.
But there was a story from the college, from the university newspaper that says that he was complaining that not having enough space to pray, he didn't have the right places. He couldn't pray as openly as he wanted to and the newspaper had published that story again today sort of reminding folks, hey, back in August, you know, he had complained to us about some of the issues at the school and not being able to pray.
COOPER: What's the next step for investigators tonight?
PROKUPECZ: So, they're sort of talking to family. That's what they're doing tonight. They're talking to family, they're talking to their friends, the police have said that they're waiting for search warrants at their home. Also, we're told that some devices were recovered from his vehicle. So they're waiting to get search warrants for that.
So, they really, I think, right now want to see if he was consuming any other propaganda. Was he consuming any other propaganda, was he consuming ISIS propaganda? Was he viewing these Awlaki videos for inspiration for this attack? So, those are really the steps. Also the big thing is to make sure he
wasn't working with anyone else and also was he communicating with anyone overseas? There are no signs of that right now. They're also telling us, authorities are telling us that anyone's radar. This guy just for whatever reason decided today to do this attack.
COOPER: All right. Shimon Prokupecz, thanks very much.
Lots to discuss. Joining me now, CNN counterterrorism analyst Phil Mudd. He served as a senior official in both the CIA and FBI. Also, CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen, whose books about terrorism include "The United States of Jihad."
Phil, I mean, I imagine viewers listening to this hear people saying, well, we're not sure if it's terrorism yet. You put the pieces together. Obviously, you know, he's talking about grievances against Muslims. At the very least, he wants to be identified as his act, the act of a terrorist.
PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: He may want to but the speed with which the American people want answers is not the same as the speed, the velocity of the investigation. Look, we have to understand his job history. We have to understand girlfriends, ex-girlfriends, family history, who he might have been communicating with online. What his Google search history is.
So, we have a couple of clues here that might suggest mindset. We don't have answers from things like interviews and online searches that give us final -- a final resolution. The problem in this case, Anderson, is over the course of the night, people are going to conclusion, why can't the Feds reach theirs? That might take a couple weeks, a month, especially in a case where you have a singleton where you can't look at his communications with the co-conspirator that might offer other clues.
COOPER: Peter, "The United States of Jihad", your last book, you wrote, basically analyzed every jihadist or would-be jihadist in $e United States. Where does this guy fit into it and what jumps out at you?
PETER BERGEN, AUTHOR, "UNITED STATES OF JIHAD": I thought it was interesting the Facebook postings were all so recent according to Shimon. That reminds me of the Orlando attack where he posted on Facebook his pledge to is sort of as the attack went on. It reminds me of the San Bernardino attack where the couple also posted their vision to ISIS as the attack went down. That's one interesting thing that leapt out at me, Anderson.
The other thing, he doesn't fit the profile of a lot of people I looked at. He's a lot younger than the average jihadist terrorist we've seen in this country. You know, he's actually very, very much younger, aged 18. So, that's sort of unusual.
You know, as Phil says, we'll know more. In about a third of these cases, Anderson, of these lone-wolf attacks, we see some kind of history of mental instability. Now, we he no evidence of that yet, but that's something certainly investigators would looking at.
COOPER: Phil, you hear -- Shimon saying, well, his mom said he had trouble at school. Plenty of people have trouble at school. And, you know, things like driving a car into a crowd, that's something that ISIS and other groups have encouraged people to do.
What does it tell you, I mean, if ISIS -- is this a sign of ISIS' strength or weakness or, I mean, assuming he's in some way trying to follow some sort of direction of jihadists?
MUDD: I look at this and say, you know, I'm talking to my family, for example, is this an indicator, as you're saying, that ISIS is on the rise? Two and a half years ago, we saw this sort of fireball of is moving across the sky, gobbling up territory in Iraq, talking to Americans, to British, to Europeans to come join the caliphate.
COOPER: And we saw people trying to leave.
MUDD: That's right. Now, you have the FBI and more recently European security services saying they're seeing fewer kids go over. ISIS, itself, has said please don't come here. More leaders are being killed in the battlefield. Obviously, they've lost a lot of geography.
You should look at this as one of the embers of a dying organization. Not as an indicator that that organization that ISIS is still burning as bright as it did two years ago.
COOPER: But, I mean, you know, a dying ember can still burn a lot of people.
[20:10:01] I mean, if somebody is using whatever weapons they have at hand, a vehicle, butcher's knife, you know, short of getting that person on the radar beforehand, that's a tough thing to try to stop.
MUDD: That's right, Anderson. But let me bookend something for you. We have a relatively unsophisticated attack here. A small vehicle with a knife.
Go back two days. The biggest football game of the season, Ohio State and Michigan is held over the weekend. Huge group of people.
COOPER: Right.
MUDD: I wouldn't offer a clue to terrorists, they've already done this. If you really want to think through this as a trained ISIS operative, clearly he went, rent a truck, get a weapon, videotape for social media and drive through that kind of crowd. We didn't see any of that here.
COOPER: That's certainly something obviously we saw in, you know, in Cannes over the summer, a guy in a truck just driving through a crowd. So, you know --
BERGEN: Yes, and he killed 86 people. So, you know --
COOPER: Excuse me, Nice. I'm sorry.
BERGEN: Yes. And, you know, as we've seen in school shootings, Anderson, I think that there's often a copycat quality to some of these attacks. School shooters tend to study previous school shootings. Terrorists often do the same. Obviously, this guy luckily didn't achieve the effect that he was hoping for.
COOPER: Yes. Peter Bergen, Phil Mudd, appreciate you being with us.
Coming up, President-elect Donald Trump falsely says he won the popular vote when the truth is he's actually losing to Hillary Clinton by more than 2 million votes and counting. Not that that matters because he won. He claims, this is not true, that the reason she got more votes because millions people voted illegally. That's not the only falsehood he's been spreading on Twitter. We'll take a look at that next.
We'll also hear from the Green Party's Jill Stein who is initiating recounts in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan. She's getting a lot of donations, millions of dollars to do it. What she told me about what's behind the effort and some other things. Well, we'll ask her some tough questions when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:15:38] COOPER: Twenty days after the election, drama has not stopped. There's a public debate going on among the Trump transition team about who should be secretary of state. We'll get to that a little bit later.
There's also a call for recount in three states, an effort for which Green Party candidate Jill Stein has raised $6 million so far. We're going to here from her in a moment.
The Clinton campaign joined the recount effort and the president-elect has slammed it in a Twitter storm. But one problem, not all his tweets are true.
Suzanne Malveaux tonight keeping him honest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald Trump is spreading false claims about the election he won. The president-elect tweeting, "In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally."
Trump who now trails Hillary Clinton by more than 2 million votes in the latest national count, offering no evidence to back up his statement about millions of illegal ballots.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT: Unbelievable.
MALVEAUX: Echoing themes from his campaign.
TRUMP: It is a rigged system, and be careful with the voting. Be careful with everything.
MALVEAUX: Trump is raising unfounded allegations of voter fraud in three states he lost. Tweeting, "serious voter fraud in Virginia, New Hampshire and California. So, why isn't the media reporting on this? Serious bias. Big problem."
Leaders in all three states pushed back saying their elections were fair. Some Trump allies are urging him to let it go.
REP. CHRIS COLLINS (R), NEW YORK: He is the president-elect. It is time to move forward
MALVEAUX: Trump salvos come as a recount moves forward in Wisconsin, where election officials rebuke the president-elect for casting doubts about the integrity of the voting process.
MARK THOMSEN, CHAIRMAN, WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION: Personally, I'd like him to come down out of his Trump Tower and spend the time with the folks on the ground that are counting these votes. To say that people are counting illegal votes is an insult to the people that run our election.
MALVEAUX: The bipartisan Election Commission today signed off on a plan to complete a new statewide tally by mid-December. The recount push is being led by Green Party candidate, Jill Stein, but the Clinton campaign is also taking part in the process. A lawyer for the Clinton campaign saying it is doing so to ensure that it is fair to all sides, adding that the campaign has found no evidence of hacking of voting systems.
Trump who currently leads Clinton in the state by more than 20,000 votes out of nearly 3 million cast calls the recount a scam.
Wisconsin officials say they are confident that Trump's margin will hold once the recount is finished.
THOMSEN: I fully expect, given the history of how elections are conducted in Wisconsin, and their accuracy, and I don't expect that the outcome will be qualitatively different.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Suzanne Malveaux joins us now.
What is next for the recounts that are likely to move forward in several states?
MALVEAUX: Well, good evening, Anderson. Today, Michigan secretary of state announced Trump has officially won that state, so it brings Trump's electoral total to 306. That's compared to Clinton's 232. Trump winning Michigan now by 10,704 votes.
Now, Stein is initiating recounts in the three states where Trump destroyed her so-called blue wall. That is Wisconsin, it's Michigan and it's Pennsylvania. Wisconsin has already vowed to begin its recount in all 72 counties. Wednesday is the deadline to petition a recount in Michigan, and today, we saw Pennsylvania getting challenged.
So, Stein's camp is insisting that she has the million dollars that's necessary to actually pay for these recounts, but, Anderson, in the meantime, Trump's transition team, well, they have been unable to provide any credible evidence that millions of people voted illegally in those states, or really any states -- Anderson.
COOPER: Suzanne Malveaux, Suzanne, thanks very much.
We'll talk to Dr. Stein and also ask her if she has evidence for her allegations.
Lots to talk about. Joining me tonight, former Georgia Congressman Jack Kingston, CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist Paul Begala, adviser to a pro-Clinton super PAC. "Wall Street Journal's" senior special writer, Monica Langley. CNN political commentator and Trump supporter Kayleigh McEnany. CNN political analyst and journalist and author Carl Bernstein, and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist, Ana Navarro.
Monica, you were at Trump Tower today.
MONICA LANGLEY, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Right.
COOPER: What did you learn about the president-elect's motivation for these tweets about illegal voters?
LANGLEY: Well, you know, he still likes to tweet.
[20:20:01] And when I was there today, the transition team cannot give an answer about what he's talking about because they had no clue he was going to tweet.
COOPER: They -- that was not on their agenda.
LANGLEY: That was not on their agenda. They had no idea that he was going to tweet. I asked them, what is the evidence? They didn't know. They didn't know that he was going to tweet.
And then, I said when will you all maybe talk to him about tweeting less and they said, oh, we're sure it will happen as the date approaches for inauguration. And to be honest, this person, one person I spoke with said I'm not going to be the one to tell him to stop tweeting. So, none of them really want to tell him.
I'll tell you the one person who can talk to him about refraining from tweeting is his son-in-law, Jared Kushner.
So, we'll have to see when that happens.
COOPER: Kayleigh, what did you make of this? I mean, is it presidential for the president-elect to be tweeting these kind of conspiracy theories?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, TRUMP SUPPORTER: What I think he's really wanting to do is bring attention to an issue that's been deafly ignored by many, many people despite having evidence of there being voter fraud. We know there are 400 convictions listed on Heritage Foundation's website. We know there was a study done using congressional data, yes, congressional data that the left is trying to debunk, but it does exist and is there and it's credible. The 6.4 percent of illegal immigrants voted in 2012.
So, there is some evidence. Were there millions and millions and millions of votes this time? Honestly, none of us know. No one at this panel knows because there's no way to track this.
So, I think he's calling attention to a problem that needs to be remedied before the next election.
COOPER: Carl?
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is the Kool-Aid talking points I hate to see.
I tweeted yesterday saying if Richard Nixon had a Twitter account, it wouldn't be as paranoid as what Trump is putting out there. He is living in a fact-free universe. And it ought to be very concerning to all of us, especially Republicans. That at this point in the transition process, he is spreading these kind of misinformation, disinformation that's spread on fake news sites, et cetera, and that the president-elect of the United States is trafficking in lies.
This is a huge problem, and the press ought to be concerned about it --
COOPER: You think he -- you think he knows it's not true, but he's still tweeting it?
BERNSTEIN: If he doesn't know that it's t true, it's even worse.
COOPER: Ana, what do you make of it?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, I'm going to disagree with you. I will tell you, he actually did tweet out something true this weekend. He tweeted out "Fidel is dead."
BERNSTEIN: That's true, he did, with an exclamation point.
NAVARRO: Yes. I think he's --
COOPER: We should point out, you're not a fan of Donald Trump.
NAVARRO: Or of Fidel's.
(LAUGHTER)
NAVARRO: Look, I think he's irritated. I think he's irritated that Jill Stein is leading the recount effort. I think he's irritated that he didn't win the popular vote. That, in fact, the margin keeps growing.
And we all know that when Donald Trump gets irritated, he often tweets out his frustration and irritation.
COOPER: I think Ana raises a good point, I'm wondering if you have any info on this, is there an irritation on this part that he feels, you know, he was gracious to Hillary Clinton --
LANGLEY: Totally.
COOPER: -- and that suddenly now the Clinton campaign is saying we're going to go along with this just --
LANGLEY: That is exactly --
COOPER: For Donald Trump, like his perception of being fair is at the heart, it seems, of so much for him.
LANGLEY: You hit the nail on the head.
He believes he acted in a magnanimous way, that he made a classy move when he said "I do not have an interest in prosecuting Hillary Clinton for her e-mail." And then she comes along after conceding the election, and says she's recount effort. And he says this is a classless move.
COOPER: He used Twitter out of --
LANGLEY: Yes.
COOPER: OK.
LANGLEY: And he says bring it on. I mean, his position is, bring on the recount, I have some states I might want recounted, the ones that he lost.
JACK KINGSTON, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I just want to point --
COOPER: Congressman, go ahead.
KINGSTON: I want to point out, though, that Pew Trust came out with a study said 24 million people who are registered to vote aren't eligible to be registered or registered illegally, 1.8 million are dead and 2.75 million are registered in more than one state.
So, there is some fact that there are voting problems and as Kayleigh pointed out, over 400 have been documented. I think in every election, there are some.
But do think the irritation factor, the fact he has taken the high road, Hillary Clinton conceded, Barack Obama is saying the election's over with, let's move on with the transition, and yet Hillary Clinton may be using Jill Stein as a front to just get in there and --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Paul, to the congressman's point, I mean, when the Green Party in 2004 paid for a recount in Ohio, the only difference was George Bush got 300 less votes, still won the state of Ohio. So, I mean, it's not as if it's a million people here or there, it's a couple hundred people here or there.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right, and I will say, Secretary Clinton's campaign said, we don't think there is fraud, but since someone else is pursuing a recount, we have an obligation to protect our interests and make sure it's fair. That's all they're saying.
Secretary Clinton is not calling for this recount, and I tell you, a couple weeks ago I would have said, probably what Carl said, Trump's a liar, he's nuts, he's a conspiracy theorist. No.
[20:25:00] He's a genius. I'm not playing around.
He's a genius at the media manipulation. Look at what he does. He settles the lawsuit for fraud with Trump University, pays $25 million to people who are accusing him of fraud. Admitting no wrongdoing, but paying $25 million.
What does he do the next day? He attacks the cast of "Hamilton," a Broadway show. He attacks the cast of "Saturday Night Live." I don't think Donald Trump gives a rip snort about "Hamilton" or "SNL." He distracted the press from the Trump University fraud suit.
What's he doing now? "The New York Times" on a Sunday runs a major story, massive conflicts of interest and for Trump in Brazil, in India, in the Philippines, in Ireland, in Scotland, in Turkey. What does Trump do?
Rather than answer these really legitimate massive problems, he says, oh, recount panic, recount, millions of people voting. He knows exactly what he's doing. He is the most brilliant media manipulator I've seen in my life. He's strategic about this. He is not crazy.
KINGSTON: But I think there's the huge case that Jill Stein is actually generating money. She's raising money she never could as a candidate. Why is that possible?
I think she also has some guilt therapy. She's thinking, oh, golly, you know, I may have helped Donald Trump get elected.
COOPER: She argues against that. She says the evidence doesn't show that at all. That a lot of the Green Party voters wouldn't have even come out to vote. I'm just telling you what --
KINGSTON: But this also gives her her platform back. She now is relevant again.
COOPER: Right. Also, I mean, look, Laurence Tribe at Harvard was saying, you know, she wants to be on the national stage. It's not just money, which is going to the recount effort, she says, but it also allows her to build up a mailing list. It allows her to build up --
KINGSTON: She wants that mantle --
NAVARRO: Why would that bother Trump? It's not like anybody that's donating to Jill Stein would be giving to his inaugural committee.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he wants to distract us from his conflict of interest, people. The guy knows what he's doing.
NAVARRO: He and his surrogates have gone out on a campaign against Hillary Clinton. She's not -- she's not Washington charging to Delaware. I mean, she's been --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: We got a lot more to talk about with the panel ahead.
Coming up next, we're going to hear from Green Party candidate Jill Stein who is leading the recount efforts in three states. She tells me what she hopes to accomplish.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:31:03] COOPER: More breaking news tonight. Green Party candidate Jill Stein announced that today her supporters filed a legal petition seeking a recount Pennsylvania. That's one of three states she's focusing on her recount effort along with Wisconsin and Michigan. The Wisconsin recount is set to get under way later this week. And the Clinton campaign is now onboard. I spoke with Jill Stein a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Dr. Stein, at this point, do you have any evidence at all, actual evidence, of voter fraud, of fraud at the ballot boxes?
JILL STEIN, FORMER GREEN PARTY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No. What we have are predictors that if tampering took place, that it would be most likely to be discovered in the three states where we are looking, but it's like when you get into an airplane, you do not want to have evidence that the airplane is rapidly losing altitude before you create a backup system to be sure your airplane has a safety net, that it has built-in quality assurance. That's what we're calling for in this election and in all elections that we need to have a system that we can be confident in.
COOPER: You're talking about potential hacking and obviously there have been instances and obviously DNC e-mails were hacked, there were, you know, were attempts to get into -- and efforts to get into various voter databases. But the FBI has been investigating that, and I assume continues to investigate that and even the Clinton campaign, their counsel says they've had lawyers and data analysts and programmers looking since the results and have not uncovered any actionable evidence.
STEIN: That's right, and what the people who watchdog the voting machine equipment, what they will be very quick will to tell you is that this is something you cannot see unless you actually count the ballots. There is otherwise no standard against which to measure it. So unless we actually look, we will never know.
When Donald Trump said that the election was rigged, he had a lot of resonance. Maybe for different reasons than what he was talking about, when Bernie Sanders talked about the economy being rigged, that had enormous resonance. That's not going away and that applies to the upcoming of the vote as well. We're saying ...
COOPER: But without having actual evidence.
STEIN: ... we deserve a vote that we can have confidence in.
COOPER: Without having evidence, aren't you actually contributing to and perhaps unfairly to that lack of confidence in the actual system, itself?
STEIN: You know, if you believe that you can just sweep things under the rug and they'll get better, you know, you might buy that.
COOPER: You know, I'm not, but the FBI -- but do it you not believe the FBI is investigating any potential hacks?
STEIN: What the voting technology experts tell us is you cannot tell unless you're actually counting the paper votes. And I don't think the FBI has done that.
COOPER: Well, you know, one of the key people who gave rise to this talk initially of hacking and a recount was a man named J. Alex Halderman is a professor of computer science at the University of Michigan. He, himself, had said that he believes the most likely explanation of the polls were systemically wrong rather than the election was hacked.
STEIN: And he, himself, says, but that shouldn't stop us from finding out. He, himself, is a very strong advocate of going forward with this inquiry and with the recount of the paper ballots so that we can actually find out, otherwise you don't know. You're flying blind.
COOPER: Donald Trump, as you know, has accused you of trying to fill your own coffers by doing this. Can you guarantee that all the money goes -- that you're raising, millions of dollars -- goes to the recount effort and any money that's left over, what happens to that?
STEIN: Absolutely. And this is all transparent on our website. You have the budget there as to exactly how this is being budgeted, but it's all going into a dedicated recount fund which is not accessible to the campaign. The campaign and the party do not have access ...
COOPER: And what happens to it afterward if there's more left over?
STEIN: Well, we don't expect there to be money left over. If it turns out that there is, we'll dispose of it according to FEC guidelines.
COOPER: And are you creating a mailing list off this or creating a database of this for your own future use?
[20:35:02] STEIN: You know, we don't have plans at the moment, but, you know ...
COOPER: But you are collecting names and contact information of the people donating money.
STEIN: That -- that is always the case, but, you know, there are a lot of voters who feel like this is a really critical movement and it's a need that hasn't been filled by the other parties, and we intend to carry this movement forward. This is a deeply felt need of voters coming out of this deeply painful election who want to take a step forward and do something really positive and not simply wallow in the cynicism which is actually quite broad spread right now. I think this is a wonderful sign of people standing up to ensure that we create this promise of democracy that we're supposed to have.
COOPER: You're saying it's a painful election for obviously for about half the country, it was not a painful election, it was actually a very positive election because their candidate, Donald Trump, won. You would said at a town hall ...
STEIN: Well, that's not half of the country. Let me put it that way. You know, it's almost half of the voters who did not see reason to come out and vote. So we got a problem here.
COOPER: Well you'd said at a CNN town hall in August that you would have trouble sleeping at night its either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton was elected. I mean the obvious question is, would you be asking for this recount if, in fact, Hillary Clinton was elected?
STEIN: I was asked many times during the campaign if I would stand up and launch a recount if there were reasons to question the vote. And I have always been committed that yes, I will do that. I will step up to the plate if there was reason to need to verify our votes.
COOPER: Dr. Stein, appreciate your time. Thank you.
STEIN: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, just ahead more breaking news. Vice president-elect Mike Pence says team Trump will be making some very important announcements tomorrow. President-elect Trump and Mitt Romney are scheduled to talk in private over dinner tomorrow. Their second meeting is speculation and controversy swirl over who Trump will choose to be secretary of state. More on that ahead.
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[20:40:46] COOPER: More breaking news tonight. Vice president Mike Pence says there will be a number of important announcements tomorrow from the Trump transition team. President-elect Trump had a busy day of meetings at Trump Tower, including one with former CIA Director and Army General David Petraeus. The lobby of the 5th Avenue high-rise has become a cat walk of sorts for a potential candidates for key cabinet staff positions. Phil Mattingly has been watching the arrivals and departures. He joins us now. So a lot of comings and goings over Trump Tower today, including General Petraeus. What's the latest?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I think what Mike Pence said coming out of Trump Tower tonight was the most important thing. Look, there's been a lot of focus on this Secretary of State round robin of sorts and certainly General Petraeus' appearance and sit-down with Donald Trump is an important aspect, if that Donald Trump the president-elect tweeting after that meeting he was very impressed with General Petraeus.
General Petraeus talking to reporters afterwards, Anderson, and saying he was impressed with the president-elect's grasp on world events. But I do think it's important to note based on what the vice president-elect said tonight, not to focus necessarily on the Secretary of State but other positions that are out there. While we've been all focus on the big, bold names the president-elect and his team have held dozens of meetings over the last couple weeks, Anderson.
And what I'm told right now from Trump transition sources is, expect the economic team to start rolling out soon. We know Wilbur Ross, the distressed that billionaire investor is expected to get the commerce secretary position. That should be announced soon. Treasury secretary Steve Mnuchin, a financier who is Donald Trump's campaign finance chairman is the front-runner for that. But Bill Allison a former bank CEO was meeting inside Trump Tower today. He is in there as well.
So expect those types of announcements to be coming before that secretary of state announcement. Well Trump transition officials Anderson make clear there's a lot of heat and light on that secretary of state pick, there are other selections that are coming and coming very soon.
COOPER: Over the weekend, there was some reporting, speculation that Trump was angered by some of the comments that Kellyanne Conway made about Governor Romney publicly as a possible pick for Secretary of State. What have you been hearing about that?
MATTINGLY: So I think it's important as you kind of take a step back a look what's actually happening here that this is more of an internal fight between senior advisers and it's very clear, Kellyanne Conway, the campaign manager who's still a very trusted voice inside the Trump operation, has a very clear view on Mitt Romney. And there are other people inside the team that have a very clear view opposed to where Kellyanne Conway sits and that's something that's actually pretty normal as advisers try and figure out transitions.
What we're not used to is this spilling out into public. And when you ask Kellyanne Conway why this has become so public, she made it clear, she's giving the public the same advice that she's giving the president-elect behind the scenes. Now, in terms of discord between the president-elect and his former campaign manager, now senior adviser, I'll point to a tweet that just came out about 30 minutes ago from Kellyanne Conway, huddled over the top of Donald Trump the president-elect in his office saying, they're working hard into the night. It's the honor and privilege of her lifetime to work for this. Trying to tamp down any talk about discord.
But what I would say, Anderson, and I think it's important to note, as this all continues to play out, this is more of a staff-on-staff conflict than a principal versus staff conflict. There is a reality though, this is unusual, it's not usual to see the things spill out into public. And I think that's something the president-elect and his team recognize and are trying to head off in this point of the game.
COOPER: All right, Phil Mattingly, thanks very much. A lots to discuss. Back with the panel. Monica, I mean you spent a lot of time in Trump Tower. Do you put any credence this notion that Kellyanne Conway went rogue? Because that ...
LANGLEY: Absolutely.
COOPER: ... it seemed like the going rogue type.
LANGLEY: Absolutely not.
COOPER: Not.
LANGLEY: She did not go rogue. And I was at Trump Tower today, and I know her well, I know Donald Trump well. Everything that Kellyanne Conway does is with the blessing of Donald Trump. So I check with numerous people today and Donald Trump was happy with her position that she took. So he -- she ...
COOPER: What would be his motivation for wanting her to publicly state ...
LANGLEY: Especially knowing that Romney is coming over there tomorrow ...
COOPER: Right.
LANGLEY: The position is that he has not been loyal to him, Giuliani has. I can tell you the staff there is very behind Giuliani and that includes Kellyanne. However, Donald Trump was asked today in a meeting, I was not in this meeting, but he was asked in a meeting that was repeated to me, are you really irritated with Kellyanne? And he said, absolutely not, I love Kellyanne.
So and everybody else said she does not do anything that's not sanctioned by Mr. Trump. The rationale for him to do that is to let it be known out there to people who are seeing Romney come in, look, I understand all your problems with Mitt Romney. I have some of the same concerns as well. He's not going to come out say them on a Sunday shows Kellyanne did it for him.
[20:45:14] COOPER: Paul where -- how do you use.
BEGALA: Well for some I would never second guess Monica's reporting, it's been spot-on. It is extraordinary to see this played out in public this way. But, first let's abandon the stroke that we all say, loyalty is important to Donald Trump, we all say that like it's -- like it's a tautology, like breakfast is the most important meal.
Well no, actually, it's not and Trump doesn't give a rip snort about loyalty, he's had three wives, three political parties, three campaign managers. In fact one of them, Kellyanne Conway, bitterly attacked Donald Trump in the primaries. They called -- said that he was vulgar, that he was whining.
COOPER: She was backing Ted Cruz at the time.
BEGALA: She was. So yes, she certainly didn't go as far as Governor Romney, but she was also someone who is a very sharp Trump critic. So, and actually I think this is a good thing. President-elect needs not to put loyalty first. Needs to put the country first.
Now, how and why Mitt Romney is the best person to be secretary of state is above my pay grade. But this notion that somehow you should only have the people who were with you in the campaign is nuts. I helped persuade Hillary to take the job as Secretary of State under Obama. And believe me, everyone in that Obama campaign was against Hillary. But they didn't take it public. They kept it private, they deferred to the president-elect.
COOPER: The flip side of this argument is, it is sort of interesting, and -- I mean you could make the argument that this is about transparency and we're sort of seeing the inner workings of the comings and goings and maybe that's a good thing.
BERNSTEIN: First, Paul said something brilliant earlier about Trump and his manipulation of the media and this is part of it. He loves this show. I think based partly on speculation and partly on a little bit of knowledge that Trump has been affected and impressed by two people he's talked to. Kissinger and president of the United States. I think they both have had a real impression on him about the seriousness of this pick and the fact that the other national security people that he has picked are such, "bomb-throwers", that Kissinger, the president of the United States, are urging in some way that there be some balance here and that people knowledgeable about diplomacy not incendiary be brought into this process.
And I think that's the unknown factor here and particularly Kissinger, but also I think that Obama has really had an effect on Trump and on his good days.
COOPER: But Kayleigh, I mean there are some -- there are a lot of questions about Giuliani, you know, his business ties, what a confirmation process would be like for him. Obviously, Petraeus, I mean, he has his own issues with the classified information. But, you know, for a lot of people, that's a relatively small transgression and he's, you knows, served his country admirably.
MCENANY: Absolutely correct. And I think, you know, if I'm president-elect Trump but I'm approaching this, is not about loyalty or not being loyal, what it is, is I want someone who fully believes in my world view. My foreign policy view for this world. I want someone who's going to go to Qatar, who's someone who's going to go to Saudi Arabia and have a firm hand with these countries that have been accused according to the Podesta e-mails of funding ISIS. And I know Mayor Giuliani would do that. I don't know about Governor Romney. I know Mayor Giuliani's view of foreign policy closely approximates that of the president-elect.
COOPER: In fact, Governor Romney has spoken very, you know, strongly about Russia in ...
MCENANY: Sure.
COOPER: ... in past years. You could argue Donald Trump did not ...
MCENANY: But if he can put those aside, those disagreements aside and say you are the president-elect, I'm there to implement your view. I would be OK with that and I trust president-elect Trump to make that decision.
KINGSTON: And I think he's got a pattern of making tough decisions. He's not afraid of it and he's not afraid of this even public debate, if you will. Think about Ted Cruz somewhat awkward stage ...
COOPER: He doesn't like the public debate.
KINGSTON: Well, but -- think about Ted Cruz being invited to speak at the convention and Trump knowing that he wasn't going to endorse him at the convention. He has a different kind of candidate. And I think that's what basic ...
COOPER: Well, we don't know for sure at the time that he knew that he was going to endorse him, but I mean he certainly figured a way to subvert whatever Ted Cruz said by coming down those stairs.
KINGSTON: But let me say this, I've had the honor of speaking at a convention, you are orchestrated to the necktie you wear, to the very second that you get on and off the stage. There are no ...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Were you at that convention? That it was a little different.
KINGSTON: Because it was Donald Trump saying ...
COOPER: Right.
KINGSTON: ... I want a little ...
COOPER: All right, we're going to have more with the panel, in the next break. We're going to take a quick break.
Also we'll have the latest on the attack today in the campus of Ohio State University as concerns over terrorism now take center stage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:53:10] COOPER: Again our breaking news on the Trump transition. Vice president-elect Mike Pence says there will be a number of important announcements tomorrow. So he mentioned one of the biggest jobs left to open as Secretary of State, Mitt Romney is a contender, again he's meeting with Trump tomorrow, no secret. Romney and Trump had been bitter rivals.
I recently asked Trump's senior adviser, Kellyanne Conway, about their heated history, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: But -- I mean as you know, president-elect and Governor Trump, as they've traded very personal insults throughout, you know, the campaign. I mean Governor Romney, you know, came out and said a lot of things, Donald Trump as well. In fact, let me just play for our viewers to remind them some of the comments are made. Let me just play the sound.
MITT ROMNEY, (R) FORMER GOVERNOR MASSACHUSETTS: Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF UNITED STATES: Mitt was a disaster as a candidate.
ROMNEY: He's playing the members of the American public for suckers.
TRUMP: Romney let us all down. He was a very poor campaigner.
ROMNEY: He gets a free ride to the White House and all we get is a lousy hat.
TRUMP: Romney choked like a dog. He choked.
COOPER: Do you think they could actually work together?
KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I do. And I think what happens with consensus builders and good negotiators and successful businessmen, who know you have to take the counsel of many different people, rivals, allies, is that they find a way to work together, if it's appropriate, Anderson. And look, I think in politics, people look at each other through these blue and red lenses, but businessman like Romney and Trump, they tend to be able to shed those gladiator outfits of blue and red and try to solve problems and come together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: All right, so that was a while ago. Now listen to what Conway said about Romney this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONWAY: Anumber of people who feel betrayed to think that a Governor Romney would get the most prominent cabinet post after he constituent so far out of his way to hurt Donald Trump, there was the Never-Trump movement and then there was Mitt Romney. He gave speeches against Donald Trump, he attacked his character. (END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:55:06] COOPER: All right. Let's continue the conversation with the panel. Kayleigh, I mean do you think Donald Trump could forget all of that about Mitt Romney?
MCENANY: Look, I think he could, for the betterment of the country. If he truly feels that Mitt Romney is the most qualified person for the job, then, yes. But what Kellyanne Conway was saying, in the second clip, and I do think it's important, that he would have to assuage the fears of the base. The base is concerned ...
COOPER: That Romney would or Trump would?
MCENANY: That Trump would, have to assuage the concerns of the base and say, this is the best candidate, and here is why. Because it is odd to see someone who is so very much against Trump, who called him a con man, now all of a sudden become Secretary of State. I think it would take president-elect explaining to this the American people, this is why this is the best choice.
COOPER: Monica, do you think it's also possible that it's somebody that we don't -- that's not, you know, Petraeus or Romney or Giuliani?
LANGLEY: Well, it could be corker ...
COOPER: Right.
LANGLEY: ... the -- you know, the senator that's head of the Foreign Relations Committee. He's coming in tomorrow to visit with him. I think it could be. I mean, this is taking a long time. He can't get settled. I was with Donald Trump and Giuliani on his plane when they were traveling. Giuliani worked his butt off. Not only would he go and introduce Trump, he would be on the plane and he would read every one of Hillary Clinton's e-mails and circle things and give it to the speechwriter or the head of policy. I mean he worked so hard. That's why the staff love him.
On the other hand, Donald Trump cares about appearances and image and Giuliani is getting a lot of criticism as not having the proper gravidas and that matters.
COOPER: Right on the international stage, but also his international businesses ...
LANGLEY: And his conflicts of interest.
COOPER: Right, the confirmation could be ...
LANGLEY: Exactly. I also vet and spent time with Mitt Romney in San Diego in his beach front home and went with him to his grandchildren a few months ago, because his grandchildren are someone who played with him. And he said to me because of these grandchildren I could never vote for Donald Trump, he's against everything I believe in.
So we have two men who have been so at each other, now if they can work together, it would be really for the good of the country if they can do that.
KINGSTON: I think, though, we're seeing all across the board lots of people who want to work for this administration. There's always that kind of excitement when a new president takes over either party. I understand there's something like 50,000 applications. But I want say these some other names out there, may -- we haven't talk about John Bolton, we haven't talk about Dana Rohrabacher, we haven't talk about Jon Huntsman. And I think he's a guy who can speak Mandarin, he's traveled the world and I think somebody like that would gladly respond to the call and listen to what Mr. Trump is saying.
NAVARRO: I think what we're seeing here is a little bit of "The Apprentice" and Miss Universe rolled into one. Let's remember -- no seriously, he does manipulate the media, he loves drama, he loves building up suspense. We are all talking about it and we've been talking about it for 10 days. Let's just hope, you know, they make them do a swimsuit contest, because that could be painful. But anyway.
BERNSTEIN: Now speaking of language that would result.
NAVARRO: I think what we're seeing is him putting them through public trials and tribulations and seeing, you know, who ends up in the season finale getting that rose.
BERNSTEIN: One of the things about Giuliani, that the biggest problem is president incoming has right now are his horrendous conflicts of interest. And there's going to be a lot of attention from Republicans and Democrats and try to end those conflicts, though they probably won't be successful. Giuliani has as many or more. And when you pile those two together, that could be a big negative.
NAVARRO: But Carl, Giuliani has a lot of chicks in the Senate ...
BERNSTEIN: Yes.
NAVARRO: ... whether Republican senators. He has campaign for a lot of them, he's got close relationships, friendships he campaign for McKinney, he campaign -- I can think of so many that he campaigned for that yes, it will be an ugly confirmation hearing, but I think he would get confirmed.
COOPER: All right, we will see if any announce tomorrow. In the next hour of "360," the White House confirming to edit President Obama and President-elect Trump to talked a handful of times. What we've learned about their phone calls and the latest on the Trump transition, coming up.
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