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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump Risks Showdown with China After Call with Taiwan; Chinese Officials Talk to White After Trump's Taiwan Call; Young, In Love, Radicalized; FBI: OSU Attack Possibly Inspired By ISIS, Al Qaeda; Jury Says It's Deadlocked In Fatal Police Shooting; Slager Jury Yet To Reach Verdict, Returns Monday. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 02, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:01] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
We begin tonight with breaking news. Even before taking office, the president-elect of the United States of America has in one phone call potentially changed more than three decades of U.S. diplomatic practice.
Today, Donald Trump spoke on the phone with president of Taiwan, a highly unusual move that could have tremendous implications for U.S. diplomacy. Trump tweeted a short time ago, "The president of Taiwan called me today to wish me congratulations on winning the presidency. Thank you."
CNN global affairs correspondent Elise Labott joins me now with the latest.
So, this call between President-elect Trump today and Taiwan's president, why is it such a big deal? I mean, I think to a lot of people listening tonight they will think well, OK. So what?
ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, the U.S. broke off relations in 1979 because of what they called the One China Policy. China considers Taiwan part of China, and when U.S. deals in diplomatic relations with Taiwan, the Chinese feel they should be dealing with China. The U.S. has held to that for the last 40 years. They are unofficial contacts. There is trade with Taiwan.
But this is something that the Chinese are very sensitive about. Even when the U.S. and Chinese officials, when Taiwanese officials speak, it's under cover. They don't meet in public. Nothing is announced. And so, this is sure to rile China, certainly.
And, you know, obviously, there's a lot of uncertainty about how Donald Trump is going to approach China. He's talked about tougher policy towards China. And this call kind of all fits into the fact that the Chinese are very worried about what could be a very different policy under President Trump.
COOPER: Were the White House, the State Department, were they aware that this call was going to happen? LABOTT: Not at all. And this is really fitting in that President-
elect Trump has done. The State Department is ready to provide, kind of, briefing paper, backgrounds, to give the president-elect a briefing on some of the sensitivities of this. Certainly, if the State Department and the White House would notified beforehand, they would recommend against it because of the sensitivities with China.
And, you know, this is part of the thing. President-elect Trump has done very few intelligence briefings. He hasn't had any briefings by the State Department. And you have seen over the last week, a lot of these calls with the world leaders, these are supposed to be really congratulatory calls, where they're very perfunctory, very quick, thank you for my congratulations. Looking forward to working with you.
You just saw yesterday, the call with the prime minister of Pakistan in which President-elect Trump was talking about what a fantastic country it is. How he can't wait to visit. How he's ready to solve any problems that they want. This didn't take into account the tensions between the U.S. and Pakistan over Pakistan's failure to crack down on terrorism.
So, the fact that he's not having these briefings seems to be not only a diplomatic breach of protocol in some instances, but also could have potential consequences down the road.
COOPER: So, just to be clear. When was the last time a U.S. leader has even spoken with a Taiwanese leader? Because there are no formal ties between the two countries.
LABOTT: Well, in 1979, when the U.S. and Taiwan broke off diplomatic relations. So, this really is upending four decades of U.S. foreign policy.
But the idea that the U.S. would be closer, have closer relations with Taiwan is not really unprecedented. I've been talking with some former diplomats who follow Taiwan. And they say that when an incoming Republican administration is taking office, there is an effort to try to elevate the relationship with Taiwan over China.
Ronald Reagan invited a Taiwanese delegation to his inauguration. So, it's not unprecedented. But these diplomats say that the relationship with China is really too important for this to go much further -- Anderson.
COOPER: Elise Labott, appreciate the reporting. We're just getting word about the potential response from China.
CNN White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski joins me on the phone with more on that.
So, what have you heard, Michelle?
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yes, that is how quick this happened, that a call was made. There was reach-out from the Chinese government to the U.S. We don't know the details of that call. We don't expect to get it.
What the White House is saying is they confirm that China has already reached out, but they don't want to get into diplomatic discussions. So, how deep this discussion went, we're not sure at this point.
But it's very telling how quickly this happened. I mean, as soon as we knew about this call between Donald Trump and Taiwan, before we even knew the details. And he's now tweeting that it was they who reached out to him. That is how quickly China was reaching out to the U.S.
What the White House has been saying is kind of a very, very careful response. That it is committed to the One China Policy as Elise was saying.
And she also mentioned the Pakistan call. I mean, you know, the Pakistani government readout the call with Donald Trump and directly quoted him as saying to the prime minister, "You are a terrific guy.
[20:05:05] You have a very good reputation. You are doing amazing work, which is visible in every way." I mean, highly unusual to see a readout like that in a phone call from the president-elect.
So what the White House responded to that with was that, you know, again very diplomatically, very carefully, not wanting to criticize Trump for saying, you know, President Obama has been benefitted -- and I'm read directly from the White House response here -- has benefitted from the professionalism and expertise of career diplomats at the State Department. They were able to offer him good advice about engaging with world leaders. Every president has benefitted from that advice. And I think that President Trump would certainly benefit from it in the same way.
COOPER: Interesting. Michelle Kosinski. I appreciate the reporting.
Shortly before airtime, I spoke with Donald Trump's campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Kellyanne, can you offer clarity on this phone call, President-elect Trump had apparently with the president of Taiwan? Do you know what was discussed?
KELLYANNE CONWAY, DONALD TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN MANAGER: So, publicly, I would just like to say whatever is in the readout and what's been publicly disclosed is really the only thing I'll have to say on the matter, Anderson.
COOPER: I mean, you know, the reason I'm asking as you well know, the U.S. doesn't recognize Taiwan as its own nation. There's obviously strong unofficial relationship. The U.S. views Taiwan a part of China, doesn't support Taiwan independence. U.S. president hasn't apparently spoken to a leader of Taiwan since 1979. I think there is a tweet now from the Democratic Senator Chris Murphy said these are major pivots in foreign policy without any plan. That is how wars start.
Does -- I mean -- can you say if this does signal some sort of a shift in the president-elect's, you know, strategy vis-a-vis China or Taiwan?
CONWAY: Well, it sounds like Senator Murphy's tweet is pretty incendiary and does not signal much of a shift from what seen to be the doctrinaire Democratic response to the election results. I mean, this is how wars are starting and it is a major policy shift because you get a phone call? That is pretty negative and pretty presumptuous.
COOPER: But there is a widespread belief that this -- I mean, this is something which China takes very seriously, and, you know, this has been long-standing U.S. policy towards China not to recognize Taiwan.
CONWAY: Right. And again, I can't discuss anything beyond what's been publicly said, and I won't do that. I mean, this is the president-elect. This will be his administration. He'll be commander in chief and he'll be president of the United States imminently now, and he either will disclose or not disclose the full contents of that conversation. But he's well aware of what U.S. policy has been.
COOPER: There have been questions raised about the briefing materials president elect Trump has used with phone calls with world leaders, whether or not he's used State Department briefing booklets and information and the expertise of the people in the State Department that's been available to him. Can you confirm if -- if he did consult that before this phone call?
CONWAY: I can confirm that he has access to those materials and he has access to daily briefings, he has access to other information that comes to him from official government agencies and elsewhere.
COOPER: Does he use it though?
CONWAY: Of course, he uses it. He reads everything. And the guy -- he's the busiest guy on the planet, pretty much has been for a while now.
But the president-elect is fully engaged, puts in -- just pours the time in, has talked -- he and Vice President-elect Pence have talked to probably about 45 or 50 leaders now or met them. He's talked to probably 80 people or so as advisors, folks who are offering their counsel, their experiences, their vision. He takes information given to him and provided to him. He avails himself of any number of different information sources, including those that come from the State Department, including those that come from intelligence briefings.
COOPER: So, is there -- I mean, just in terms of how it works, is there a policy before talking to a world leader or the president of Taiwan that he would be briefed by the State Department? Or that he would make sure to, you know, be fully up on U.S./Taiwan's unofficial relations? CONWAY: You are presuming that he's not. And I don't remember any
discussions ever being asked about President Obama or president elect Obama I think eight years ago at this time.
COOPER: Well, he's never spoken to the president of Taiwan. I mean, it is the first time. So, it is news. That's why I'm asking.
CONWAY: Sure. As president-elect, I'm pretty certain that President Obama spoke to world leaders in preparation for taking over as president of the United States and commander-in-chief and I can't imagine if he was asked properly or fully briefed considering he had very little experience himself.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: But this is a break with U.S. policy. I mean, this is uncharted waters. Not since, you know, for decades.
CONWAY: Anderson, President-elect Trump is fully briefed and fully knowledgeable about these issues, on an ongoing basis, regardless of who's on the other end of the phone.
[20:10:05] COOPER: How is the structure right now in the transition? Where would -- you know, where is the discussion coming from of whom he should be having phone calls with? How does that actually work?
CONWAY: Well, that just works in an orderly fashion. It's a matter of the executive committee. A matter of the president-elect, the vice president-elect, other advisors to the transition, making suggestions and we're happy to schedule the calls and it is very orderly. We make sure that there's plenty of time for these phone calls, that there's proper briefings.
And so far, they've just gone really well in terms of dozens and dozens of phone calls and a few meetings by world leaders by Vice President-elect Pence and President-elect Trump all the while being sensitive to the fact we have a current president and current vice president still in office. He at least is having these private conversation, giving a readout here and there about them. But not trying to make policy and not trying to make waves until he's actually the president in six and a half weeks.
COOPER: I mean, I guess that is the question whether a phone call with the president of Taiwan, which is a major shift in U.S. policy or, you know, just happened to have that direct contact is in fact making waves.
There is another piece of CNN reporting. A different administration official says there was no contact with either the White House or the State Department about the call beforehand. Request you confirm that?
CONWAY: I can't confirm that. But I tell you, yesterday, there was a major shift in policy in that Donald Trump and Mike Pence went to Indianapolis and helped Carrier broker a deal that kept 1100 employees here. Why is that relevant? Because that's a major shift in policy.
The current president could have done that. The current vice president could have done that. They just did not do that.
And this is -- you see these major shifts in policy. Taiwan is different than that certainly. But I can't confirm particular intimate details of phone calls that are being had between the president-elect and world leaders. I just won't do it.
COOPER: And, obviously, we did a lot of reporting on that yesterday, particularly, as well as both President-elect Trump and Vice President-elect Pence, their thank you -- to the beginning of their self described thank you tour.
Just finally, can you comment on the Pakistan government released what they said was a readout of the phone call between President-elect Trump and Pakistan's prime minister. It was a one-sided readout. It was allegedly what Donald Trump had said. Not what the Pakistan prime minister had said.
Was that accurate? And does it? I mean it was very unconventional for Pakistan to do that. It was a brave protocol. Was that something which was concerning to the president-elect?
CONWAY: Well, we refer to anything like that is done you get the full benefit of the entire conversation to the extent that both sides had agreed to a readout.
But again, he's having these phone calls. He's having these meetings. He will do that again, as president, with world leaders, certainly, as well Vice President Pence. But in the meantime, you know, beyond what is publicly disclosed, I just cannot disclose anything further than that. It would be highly inappropriate for any of us to do that.
So, I'm going to have to stick with that. I can talk about a lot of aspect of the transition. I can talk about many aspects of the campaign manager forum in Harvard last night. I can talk about a number of different policies that the president-elect is very focused on his first 100 days when he gets to Washington. But I can't and I won't disclose any further details on private conversations, let alone private conversations that the president-elect is having with world leaders.
COOPER: Kellyanne Conway, appreciate you being with us. Thank you.
CONWAY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: I continued to ask Kellyanne Conway some questions about that Harvard symposium from yesterday. We're putting the full interview online at AC360.com.
Much more ahead on the implications of the president-elect breaking with U.S. diplomatic practice. I'll speak with Fareed Zacharia and Ivan Watson about why even a phone call to the president of Taiwan is, in fact, a big deal. That's next.
And later, an incredible story from Mississippi State University. A young couple in love recruited by ISIS.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:57] COOPER: The breaking news tonight, President-elect Donald Trump has broken with nearly four decades of U.S. diplomatic policy, speaking on the phone with the president of Taiwan. Now, the transition team says the two leaders congratulate each other and one of four phone calls Trump had with world leaders today. But the conversation with Taiwan's president in particular obviously isn't just any casual phone call. It has potential for enormous diplomatic implications.
A senior administration official says China already has reached out to the White House about the call, but we don't have more details than that.
Joining me now are CNN world affairs analyst Fareed Zakaria and CNN senior international correspondent Ivan Watson.
So, Fareed, put this into perspective. I mean, I've been reading Twitter. There's a lot of people are saying, look, so what? This is phone call. Sure, it is a diplomatic break. It's not the tradition. But does it really matter?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: It is a huge break, with 37 years of diplomatic tradition. The United States does not really recognize Taiwan as a country. It has not recognized, it has allowed for a certain kind of constructive ambiguity.
COOPER: We don't have an embassy there. We remove the embassy
ZAKARIA: Right. Henry Kissinger's phrase is constructive ambiguity. We don't completely buy the Chinese argument that this is all one country.
But the really worrying thing about is, is Donald Trump winging this? Or is it part of a sustained policy that makes sense that has been thought through? If it's the latter, fine, let's understand what the policy is. Let's understand the pluses and minuses are.
You know, Kellyanne Conway said the president elect is having private conversation with world leaders. Well, the president-elect and the president don't get to have private conversations really with anyone. There is historically always been a government official, a State Department note taker who is recording what is happening to make sure, first of all, that it is there for history. But also to make sure that the rest of the government knows what's going on.
COOPER: Even if the conversations are not released publicly.
ZAKARIA: Right. They could be secret conversations but they are never private in the sense there is always somebody in the government involved. I did research on the Herbert Hoover administration when I was in college, and I was struck by the fact that even then, that the president, all the secretary of state had a conversation, it was always -- there was somebody recording it. [20:20:03] Now, let's be clear. Let's be honest. Donald Trump may
have business interests in Taiwan. We know he spoke to the president of the Philippines and he does have business interest there. In fact, his business partner has been named the special envoy from the Philippines to the United States.
COOPER: We haven't been able to confirm business interest in Taiwan, although local media in Taiwan was reporting that.
ZAKARIA: I said "may". Right.
COOPER: Somebody from the Trump organization was there in September, looking at application for a luxury hotel. But again, we haven't confirmed --
ZAKARIA: And precisely to be clear and sure about all this, you want to be sure that there was somebody taking down what happened in the conversation. So, what's worrying about this is, you know, is this -- is he winging it? Is it part of a strategic plan?
If it's part of a strategic plan to put pressure on China, I think it's perfectly plausible. Let's understand about it. Let's hear about it.
But as I say, the president of the United States, the president-elect, don't get to do this without anybody in the United States government knowing about it.
COOPER: Something like this, Ivan, for Taiwan, would be an enormous deal. I mean, obviously, they want international recognition. They want full diplomatic relations restored with the United States.
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. They are relatively isolated. They -- the Taiwanese crave official recognition. And the Chinese state news agency has already interpreted this phone call, declaring an historical dialogue, that the first time in nearly 40 years.
So, there is a lot of symbolism here. The important thing now is how will the Chinese react to this? Will they perhaps see this as a gaffe? Or will they see this as a deliberate provocation a step on Chinese sovereignty, since they see Taiwan very much as part of their state, even though the Taiwanese view themselves as a separate country.
COOPER: You know, Fareed, CNN reporting that a Trump transition advisor who supports the independence who's involved or at least in the past helped facilitate it. Which is -- it is not a impartial State Department employee. What do you make of that potential involvement?
ZAKARIA: Again, I think -- Ivan is exactly right. This is very thorny territory. I mean, China believes Taiwan is a province. If we are changing policy, this would be one of the largest shifts in American foreign policy in decades. And you'd hope that it would have been thought through. We would have gotten everybody in the United States government on board, we understand what it is.
Ronald Reagan did make a few overtures to Taiwan when he was president, but they were considered. They were very thought through. They were calculated.
And, by the way, China at that point was 2 percent of global GDP. China today is 16 percent of global GDP. It is second largest economy in the world, one of the largest holders in American debt.
So, again, it's not that you shouldn't do it. But let's just hope there is actually some thought about this.
COOPER: Well, I mean, that was I was trying to ask Kellyanne Conway, about what is the process by which this is decided. She obviously -- you know, she says he has access to information but didn't really go into any level of detail.
And obviously, Ivan, this comes at relations with China are always fraught. But there is a lot of flash points right now in South China Sea and elsewhere that are, you know, very much in the balance.
WATSON: Absolutely. South China Sea. Disagreement between Washington and Beijing over what China claims a huge body of water to be its own pretty much sovereign territory.
North Korea, which is really considered a threat to the region, a threat to the U.S. U.S. needs China's help to deal with North Korea.
And as some people have pointed, this kind of could potentially raise tensions at a time when you don't really need them with some of these very serious challenges already existing on the table.
People were not terribly worried that Taiwan was going to explode, even though you had the recent election of a pretty anti-China, pro- independence Taiwanese president in recent history.
ZAKARIA: I mean, you have to remember, we need China for Iran sanctions. You can't do Iran sanctions without the U.N. Security Council. China has been very helpful to the United States.
You need China any time you do sanctions against anyone. Any time you want to intervene with the U.N. involvement. Any time you want to put sanctions on. Any time you need funding for some international project.
The China now, as I said, the second largest economy in the world. We want to be clear what exactly our strategy is if the point is to piss them off.
COOPER: Although, I mean, throughout the campaign, Donald Trump did -- I mean, you could argue he provoked them in ways. I mean, that he was pointing out, you know, currency manipulation. A whole host of issues.
ZAKARIA: So, candidates have often done that. People sometimes forget when Bill Clinton campaigned, he talked about the butchers of Beijing referring to Tiananmen Square.
But then you come into office, and that sobers you and you recognize the realities and you understand you are speaking for the whole country and the whole country's interest.
And I just hope that that is what Donald Trump is thinking about, that we have the entire country to worry about.
[20:25:03] Not, you know, one particular rhetorical shot that you can take, because were China to react badly and it is difficult to imagine that they will simply take this quietly. They've asked to see -- Henry Kissinger is in China right now because they are trying to make sense of what is happening in the United States. But they have historically reacted very strongly and almost neurologically to any type of pro-Taiwanese sentiment.
COOPER: Fareed Zakaria, thank you. Ivan Watson, great to see you.
Just ahead, our political panel weighs on the President-elect Trump's call with Taiwan and its possible consequences.
Plus, high drama in a South Carolina courtroom, where the jury in the Walter Scott shooting trial has told the judge repeatedly it cannot reach a verdict.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Breaking news tonight: President-elect Donald Trump breaking with nearly four decades of U.S. foreign policy, speaking in the phone today with the president of Taiwan, a phone call that perhaps threatens to trigger a diplomatic showdown with China. Joining -- or at least concern from China.
Joining me now is CNN political commentator and Trump supporter, Jeffrey Lord. CNN political analyst and "USA Today" columnist Kirsten Powers, and Democratic strategist John Tasini.
[20:30:01] Kirsten, what do you make of this phone call?
KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think the biggest question is whether it was an accident or whether it was something that he did intentionally. Now he has tweeted out that he received a phone call and it was a phone call to congratulate him and he took the phone call.
But, you know, it was on his schedule the day he was going to meet with John Bolten, he's the former ambassador to the UN under George Bush who wrote in the "Wall Street Journal" this year basically talk about the ladders of escalation -- diplomatic ladders of escalation with Taiwan. And a ways that you could do with China through to the ways, through basically antagonizing them through inviting for example people from Taiwan to come to this the State Department, that starting to sort of escalate in this way.
So it's kind of interesting that he may have met with today and that -- and there are people that he is looking at from positions in the administration who advocate this kind of behavior. So, it's possible that it was that, it's also possible that he just received the phone call and he didn't know he wasn't suppose to take it, though I find that highly unlikely.
COOPER: Jeff, I mean is it -- is it a concern here -- I mean there have been questions that raise about how much Donald Trump is receiving intelligence, briefings and probably more to the point in this issue, communicating with -- communicating with the State Department, actually getting readouts from the State Department or consulting with them before a call like this.
JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No it is not a concern. I'm sure he's consulting with somebody there in his intelligence, you know, group there that cease surrounding him. General Flynn, et cetera. But Anderson, I would point out that four presidents of the United States that I can think of right off the bat, Franklin Roosevelt, Nixon, Reagan and Obama, have taken office and then changed major American foreign policy with different countries. Franklin Roosevelt recognized the Soviet Union the first time in his existence after 16 years of policy by four presidents including one Democrat and three Republicans. Richard Nixon famously opened the door to China, stunned the world ...
POWERS: But not a momement.
LORD: ... to death (ph), so the worst decade.
JONATHAN TASINI, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: But Jeff nobody did it as president-elect. This is ridiculous. Nobody ...
LORD: Ronald Reagan did the same in his very first press conference with in terms of the Soviet Union.
POWERS: But Jeffrey no, you can't say ...
LORD: And of course President Obama has just the first policy ...
POWERS: Don't you think he discuss it with somebody first and maybe like met -- you know, we're talking about 40 years of diplomacy. Bipartisan ...
LORD: Well how do you know ....
POWERS: Hold on. With Republican and Democrats and normally what you would do is maybe have some meetings and talk to people and think this through. Not just do a phone call.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Well Jeff -- our -- the latest reporting, I mean officials from the State Department said that ...
POWERS: Yeah.
COOPER: ... he -- they have not been in touch with anyone from the transition regarding President elect Trump for any of these phone calls or any of this phone calls.
LORD: I understand that. But my point is ...
COOPER: But that, you know, why he ...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Why doesn't that concern you?
LORD: What I'm sorry?
COOPER: Why doesn't that concern you? I mean presidents, you know, and there is a State Department for a reason. You can argue whether or not, you know, they have ...
(CROSSTALK)
LORD: That's a good point. And let me point out to you, that when Richard Nixon did his opening with China, he didn't talk to the State Department. I believe he even kept his own Secretary of State out of it. He dealt with Henry Kissinbger who was his General Flynn in the day, his own private national security advisor.
TASINI: Jeff ...
COOPER: Jonathan?
TASINI: .... but here is the problem. First of all we're normalizing Donald Trump again. And if you look back at the debates and throughout the campaign, it was very clear Donald Trump had no idea about diplomacy, he had no idea how to talk about the world.
COOPER: By the there were reportings that Mike Pence has been consulting with the State Department for some of his ...
TASINI: Well that's fine. He is the vice president elect, he would think -- this is the problem I think long-term is, Donald Trump doesn't know diplomacy. He doesn't understand the world. And this kind of phone call is sort of mind boggling, because anybody that had a smidgeon -- the two of us. If somebody -- if we were president elect we would know that there is a long-term one China policy. We would not accept this kind of call.
LORD: But so what?
TASINI: Hold on Jeff. And we would at least call up the State Departments, the experts and say how to do we handle this? And number two, in case you didn't know, Donald Trump is the president-elect currently. He does not have the authority to be talking to and essentially making these kind of steps that put the United States and the current president in the kind of danger that ...
COOPER: All right Jonathan, I want to ...
TASINI: The other guy.
COOPER: Jeff, I want you to be able to respond to that.
TASINI: It's ridiculous. My friend.
LORD: Look. When Barack Obama was just the presidential nominee of the Democratic Party he went over to Berlin and gave a major foreign policy speech. I mean something no other presidential nominee had ever done ...
TASINI: Well.
LORD: ... and he wasn't even president elect. I mean come on, John. John, John.
TASINI: But wait a minute Jeff. He didn't meet with the head of state.
LORD: John ...
TASINI: He didn't meet with the head of state that he went and gave a speech and by the way ...
LORD: John.
TASINI: ... in case he didn't.
LORD: It is the problem.
POWERS: No, but just ...
(CROSSTALK)
LORD: You're advocating the status quo. And Donald Trump has been elected to do things differently.
[20:35:03] Now, I don't know and you don't know -- none of us know what's really going on behind the scenes with this phone call. But whether it was, you know, however you want to describe it, this is something that we're going to see a lot of in the future, where the current ways of doing thing which the American is doing things in Washington which the American people have said does not work are being changed. Radically so.
COOPER: So Kirsten what about that point?
POWERS: Yeah.
COOPER: Because I'm sure there's many people who agree with that saying, you know, what this is why he is elected to do.
POWERS: I think that's a great point, yeah.
COOPER: He's winging it and well maybe that's ...
POWERS: Well, I don't think he should be winging it. I think it is right that people want to do things differently. And I don't think people are necessarily opposed to a different attack with China perhaps. What -- the issue here like I said what we really need is more information. We need to know what went into the thinking behind this. And it does seem that he just responded to an incoming phone call which doesn't seem like a strategy. And there's a reason, you know, Jeffrey you were saying so what.
I mean so what well there's a reason United States sided with China. Right. I mean we -- it's one of the biggest markets in the entire world.
(CROSSTALK)
POWERS: And with China -- no but listen, with China and Taiwan it is an either/or. You either are doing business with China or your doing business with Taiwan. China is not going to say you just go do things with Taiwan and continue to have a relationship with us. That's just not the way it's going to work and they will -- they'll realize they will retaliate.
TASINI: Diplomacy does have some our key (ph) rules, I agree in, some of those are uncomfortable Jeff, but any normal diplomat, any person running for elective office in the United States Senate understands these rules and you can't just come in like a bull in a China shop and upset these things it. It does take time, it does take some thought and process and talking to people. And this is the problem, last point I make is, this is the problem we have to face with Donald Trump. He's unprepared. He does not understand the world and we have a man walking to the Oval Office that will tweet, will pick up phone calls and not go through those kind of processes that can result in a shift but should do so |in a very thoughtful way.
POWERS: Yes.
COOPER: Jeffrey I want you to respond.
LORD: John, we've done it your way and the government is in a mess. That's all I can say. The very first thing that Ronald Reagan did and actually there was some accident to it. For decades the Soviet ambassador had been he only one of 150 ambassadors to get a private entrance into the State Department to go directly in an elevator -- private elevator to the Secretary of State's office. When Ronald Reagan became president he drove into that private garage and was turned away. And maybe go through the public entrance. The message sent things are changing. Whether this is intended or not. Things are changing. Message delivered.
POWERS: I -- you know, I can still. I think it's his -- is right as a president to set the policy for the United States. Is just that that the United States isn't his toy. You know, this is bipartisan policy through to, you know, to Republican and Democrats and I think that he needs to maybe spend some time and understand that.
COOPER: All right, just leave the conversation there. Jonathan, thanks so much, Kirsten as well. Jeffrey Lord have a great weekend.
This week the Ohio State campus was shaken by violence. The FBI said the 18-year-old would be terrorist or terrorists may have been radicalized by either Al-Qaeda or ISIS.
Up next, another story from American college, this is incredible young and in love and radicalized. How university in Mississippi cheerleader and her boyfriend committed themselves to ISIS and ended up in U.S. federal prison.
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[20:42:16] COOPER: The FBI says the attacker this week in Ohio State University may have been inspired by ISIS or Al-Qaeda. The Somali immigrant and OSU student was shot to death by police after he injure 11 people with his car and a butcher knife.
Terrorism is confirm, they won't be first case leading to a college campus. Senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin has this exclusive report, and a couple from Mississippi state now separated by prison.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Muhammad Dakhlalla just 24-years-old, is at the very start of an eight year federal prison sentence for trying to join and help ISIS, a radical Muslim extremist? Hardly. He's as American as you and me and he got into this mess because he fell in love.
How did this happen?
MUHAMMAD DAKHLALLA, FEDERAL PRISON INMATE: Where do you want me start exactly?
GRIFFIN: His friends know him as Mo, born and raised in Mississippi. Muslim and non-Muslim friends. Hit and miss with the ladies. Until at Mississippi State University in his senior year he met and fell head over heels for a Mississippi state cheerleader named Jaelyn Young.
DAKHLALLA: Yes. She was beautiful and things like that.
GRIFFIN: She's American too. And Mississippi all the way. But within months Mo says Jaelyn was changing. Converting to Islam. Changing her dress. Then began introducing Mo to the online brand of Islam she had been learning about.
This happened so fast.
DAKHLALLA: It did. Maybe we were going a little too fast. You know.
GRIFFIN: But you were in love.
DAKHLALLA: Yes. Yeah.
GRIFFIN: And she was coming to you, right?
DAKHLALLA: Yeah. And, you know, that love can ultimately, you know, blind out your intelligence. GRIFFIN: The Federal Bureau of Prisons rarely grants access to convicted felons like Mo. This is an exception. An agreement between the Department of Justice, CNN and Muhammad Dakhlalla himself. Perhaps for all to understand just how powerful ISIS online propaganda can be. His girlfriend Jaelyn Young merely showed Mo the videos. The videos did the rest.
DAKHLALLA: And so when she showed me that video, I think it just kind of brought a tenseness in her. You know, I felt those same things, I guess, just because she was feeling it.
GRIFFIN: And that progressed.
DAKHLALLA: Yeah. Progressive to the point that I -- my mind wasn't thinking straight.
GRIFFIN: Mo, what were you going to do? Drop your entire life and run over to a war zone?
[20:45:01] DAKHLALLA: Yeah. I mean when she first looked at these videos, she had, you know, a strong belief that OK this is the group to really help out, you know, the Muslims. Rebuild towns, people were helping to feed -- feed the needy.
GRIFFIN: According to the FBI Jaelyn Young reached out to a contact she thought would help her and Mo travel to Turkey. Across the board into Syria and join ISIS. The two secretly married. Begaan intensive preparation period. Bought one way plane tickets to Istanbul.
On August 2015, Mo and Jaelyn packed their bags he wrote this goodbye letter to his parents. The first lines, I'm sorry, I love you, I've decided to leave and won't I be coming back. They got as far as the boarding gate.
The moment they arrested you?
DAKHLALLA: Oh my heart sank. I felt like my whole body shut down.
GRIFFIN: It turns out the online ISIS recruiter who had been helping make arrangements for the couple was in fact an FBI employee. This past summer they both pleaded guilty. Mo given an eight year sentence citing his cooperation with authorities. Jaelyn Young the mastermind was sentenced to 12 years. She's refused to speak to CNN.
You haven't said her name once.
DAKHLALLA: Oh yeah.
GRIFFIN: You haven't.
DAKHLALLA: No I have not.
GRIFFIN: He also finds it difficult to speak about the other woman in his life, the woman he wrote this final goodbye to. Mo Dakhlalla's mother was suffering from cancer at his arrest. She died earlier this year. DAKHLALLA: And that's probably -- or is one of the biggest regrets that I have in my life. Still haunts me to this day. That I would prefer this woman that I've been together with for under a year and lie to my mother about where I was going.
GRIFFIN: His other regret, that in time of confusion, especially about his religion, he failed to reach out to his dad, an imam himself, who would have never taught his son to kill or hurt anyone.
DAKHLALLA: I wish I just reached out to my dad. You know, if I just asked him, he would just illuminate me on what was happening, what's really happening with this group. I feel like that I should owe people back to say, hey, don't do what I did. It's -- there is no -- that's not what they are doing over there. What ISIS is doing over there, that's not Islam.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: Anderson, Mo Dakhlalla is not bitter. In fact he tells me he is glad he was caught. He knows know had he made to Syria there is a good chance he will be dead. 8 years from now when he leaves prison he'll be 32 years old. Anderson?
COOPER: Unbelievable story. Drew, thanks very much to the reporting.
More breaking news, ahead a dead locked jury in the murder trial of a former South Carolina police officer charged in the killing of Walter Scott. A single juror holding out.
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[20:52:08] COOPER: There's breaking news tonight. Jurors in the Walter Scott shooting trial said they are deadlocked with a single male juror holding out. Former South Carolina Police Officer Michael Slager faces 30 years to life in prison. He's charged with murder in the death of Scott, an unarmed African-American man after a traffic stop in April of 2015. The killing captured on video.
Hard to forget that video. Boris Sanchez joins me now with the latest. What are we hearing? There's been a lot of back and forth between the jury and the judge today.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Anderson, it was a roller coaster day in this trial, the judge and jury going back and forth, seemingly every few hours. The jury telling the judge that they were having a hard time coming to a consensus. And then the judge essentially telling to go back and work harder and deliberate until they came to a decision.
It all started around 1:00 p.m. when they asked for testimony from a specific witness. And then minutes later, they gave a note to the judge saying that they were having a very difficult time coming to a consensus. The judge issuing an Allen charge, telling them it was their duty to come to a verdict. The jury deliberating for a lot longer. They came back with three separate notes for the judge, indicating that, again, they were having some trouble. The judge then asked them if they were hopelessly deadlocked. They said, that if perhaps they had some clarification on certain laws, they could potentially come to a decision. Unclear what the clarification they needed. They ultimately asked the judge for the trial to be postponed until 9:00 a.m. Monday and the judge conceded, Anderson.
COOPER: And is it the holdout juror who's communicated with the judge?
SANCHEZ: Yeah, that was really one of the most fascinating parts of today. One of those three letters to the judge that I mentioned was actually an emotional note from the one holdout juror who told the judge he could not, in clear conscience, convict Michael Slager.
Interestingly enough, a separate part of that note said that he could not look in Walter Scott's family's eyes and tell them that Michael Slager was innocent. So clearly, some indecision there.
The other two notes are fascinating as well, one of them coming from the jury foreman who said that it was just that one juror, that the 11 others were already decided. And then the third note saying that the juror was having "issues". Apparently, that juror at some point became very emotional and could not come to a decision along with the rest of the jurors.
COOPER: Walter family's -- Walter Scott's family just spoke. What did they say?
SANCHEZ: A very emotional response from them. One of their attorneys saying that this isn't a story about one black family against Michael Slager, that this was the world against Michael Slager, in the pursuit of justice. They say they pray that that one undecided juror reflects over the weekend and comes to a conclusion on Monday so they can put this behind them and begin to heal, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Boris Sanchez, thanks.
Joining me now is Criminal Defense Attorney and CNN Legal Analyst Danny Cevallos.
[20:55:00] How common is it that there's a one holdout juror? And we'll see the movies and things like that.
DANNY CEVALLOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's uncommon. Typically, all you really need is more than one to have some kind of an alliance. One juror is usually going to be overcome by the will of the other jurors. But in a case like this, defense attorneys like me admittedly aren't big fans of Allen charges because we view them as sort of putting undue pressure on that one juror who may be holding out. Usually holding out for an acquittal.
COOPER: The judge has told the jury, I mean, to continue. Is it rare that the judge actually knows who the holdout juror is?
CEVALLOS: You know, in South Carolina, the general rule is that the judge can't ask the jurors specifically about the division, who's voting what way and where. But, if the jurors tell him without him asking, then there's no constitutional violation. But as a general rule, the judge isn't supposed to know the breakdown among the jurors. Practically speaking, he or she is usually going to find out.
COOPER: If there is a -- if the juror -- if the holdout continues to hold out, there would be a mistrial, I suppose, I assume a retrial. There's also a federal case, though, against Slager. How would a mistrial affect that?
CEVALLOS: Well, generally in the federal context, the federal government has a policy, it's not a constitutional rule, but it's called the Petite Policy. And it means that if there is a state prosecution that ends in either an acquittal or a conviction, then the federal government has to look at whether or not substantial federal interests are vindicated. It may not feel that that's the case. First of all, this is not an acquittal. This would be a none -- this would be a hung jury.
COOPER: Right.
CEVALLOS: But, additionally, the federal government probably views this case as vindicating civil rights law as opposed to simply state murder laws.
COOPER: Right. And we should remember, this is a case where this -- the killing was caught on video for all to see. Imagine if there was no video, what might have happened.
Danny Cevallos will continue to follow. Thanks very much.
Much more ahead on tonight's other big breaking news. President-elect Trump's phone call with Taiwan's President, a possible fallout. I'll talk to Former Ambassador Christopher Hill who served as assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, and top (inaudible) of the "New York Times".
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COOPER: Thanks for joining us for the second hour of "360". The breaking news, a break in nearly 40 years of U.S. diplomatic practice, today, President-elect Donald Trump spoke on the phone with the President of Taiwan.
[21:00:00] This happened without any contact with either the State Department or the White House according to administration official. Trump tweeted twice about this tonight.
First, there was, "The President of Taiwan called me today to wish me congratulations on winning the presidency. Thank you." And then, "Interesting how the U.S. sells Taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment but I should not ...
