Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump Tries to Change Subject from Off the Rail Remarks in Tweets About GOP Senators, Monuments and General Pershing; 13 Dead, More Than 100 Injured in Barcelona Terror Attack. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired August 17, 2017 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:03] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.
We are continuing to get late information tonight about the terror attack today in Barcelona, Spain, as well as some kind police operation that's going on, according to Spanish media right now, with four fatalities, about 75 miles south of Barcelona. This is different than what happened earlier today. We'll bring you all of that throughout the next two hours as we learn new information.
But we want to begin tonight with President Trump who, tonight, has members of his party questioning his moral authority, his competence, even his stability. Those are not our words. As you'll see, they are the words of GOP lawmakers.
Just last night on the program, CNN political analyst Carl Bernstein said something pretty shocking about what his sources were telling him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think there's considerable evidence that there's a consensus developing in the military at the highest levels, in the intelligence community, among Republicans in Congress including the leaders and the business community that the president of the United States, Donald Trump, is unfit to be the president of the United States. And that's the undercurrent. I've talked to you about it for weeks that I've been hearing in Washington.
There's increasing talk about his emotional and mental stability as David Gergen referred to earlier. This is extraordinary. It's a dangerous moment in our history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Extraordinary and dangerous, he said. Well, this afternoon, Senator Bob Corker, a Republican from Tennessee, who at one point was said to be consideration to be President Trump's secretary of state, said this about president's fitness for office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: The president has not yet -- has not yet been able to demonstrate the stability nor some of the competence that he needs to demonstrate in order to be successful. And we need for him to be successful. Our nation needs for him to be successful. It doesn't matter whether you're Republican or Democrat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Senator Corker's remarks came just hours after the president rage tweeted about South Carolina Republican, Senator Lindsey Graham, quote, he said: Publicly seeking Lindsey Graham falsely stated -- publicity-seeking Lindsey Graham falsely stated that I said that there was moral equivalency between the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists and people like Ms. Heyer, meaning Heather Heyer, who was murdered in Charlottesville. Such a disgusting lie, the president tweets. He just can't forget his election denouncing. The people of South Carolina will remember.
Now, it's true, the president didn't specifically say that Heather Heyer was not on the same moral level as the KKK or neo-Nazis that he did speak against on Monday. But keeping them honest, the very next day, Tuesday, president revealed clearly his true feelings about the demonstrations in Charlottesville, saying clearly that there were many similarities between Nazis, racist protesters, and those protesting against them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There was a group on this side, you can call them the left, you've just called them the left, that came violently attacking the other group. So, you can say what you want, but that's the way it is.
REPORTER: It is on both sides, sir? You said there was hatred, there was violence on both sides --
TRUMP: Well, I do think there's blame, yes, I think there's blame on both sides. You look at both sides. I think there's blame on both sides. And I have no doubt about it. And you don't have any doubt about it either. And, and if you reported it accurately, you would say it.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Excuse me. You had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Fine people on both sides. Blame on both sides. Violence on both sides. If only we could talk to someone who was there.
It's a shame we never talked to a reporter who was on the scene. Oh, actually, wait, we did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And when the president says that there were good people at this march, they were quietly there to protest removal of the Robert E. Lee statue, that not all of them were neo-Nazis or white supremacist, what do you think? Is that true? ELLE REEVE, CORRESPONDENT, VICE NEWS TONIGHT: No. Everyone who was
there knew what they were doing. They were shouting Jews will not replace us. It's very well-coordinated. They had an order to the chants, like, there was no mistaking. There's no innocent person wandering up and accidently getting involved in this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, there's that.
Still, the president says he was not establishing a moral equivalency between the neo-Nazis and Heather Heyer, but he sure does seem to be pointing the finger at other counter protesters who the president incorrectly saying they did not have a permit to protest, unlike the Nazis who the president likes to point out, did have a permit.
For some reason, the president always ignores the fact that the Nazis violated the terms of their permit.
Another Republican senator, Tim Scott of South Carolina, also weighed in today with this criticism of the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: What we want to see from our president is clarity and moral authority. That moral authority is compromised when Tuesday happens. There's no question about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:00] COOPER: Senator Scott and Corker were not alone today. Senator Richard Burr of North Carolina said the president is misguided in remarks about Charlottesville.
The president pushed it further today, clearly seeing an advantage and trying to refocus his attention on Confederate monuments, saying, quote: Sad to see the history and culture of our great country being ripped apart with removal of our beautiful statues and monuments he tweeted. You can't change history, but can learn from it. Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, who's next? Washington? Jefferson? So foolish.
Also, he goes on, the beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns and parks will be greatly missed and never able to be comparably replaced.
So, that was this morning. The president clearly seems to be trying to change the subject from his inaccurate portrayal of the Charlottesville tragedy into some sort of culture war between those who support Confederate monuments and those who want to see them removed.
Of course, the Nazis and white supremacists marching this past weekend were never really marching about a Robert E. Lee statue, but the president has seized on the monuments issue for what are clearly political reasons. By this afternoon, in the wake of Barcelona, he was back on the
electric Twitter machine, advocating to what my moderate observer would be a war crime. Quote: Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught, there was no more radical Islamic terror for 35 years.
Now, this is first time the president has talked about this alleged moment in history. The president spoke about it fondly several times during the campaign. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They were having terrorism problems just like we do, and he caught 50 terrorists who did tremendous damage and killed many people, and he took the 50 terrorists and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 bullets in pig's blood. You heard that, right? He took 50 bullets and he dipped them in pig's blood, and he had his men load his rifles and he lined up the 50 people, and they shot 49 of those people.
And the 50th person, he said, you go back to your people, and you tell them what happened. And for 25 years, there was not a problem, OK? Twenty-five years, there wasn't a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So back then, he was saying it was a 25-year solution. Now, he's saying it's a 35-year solution.
Anyway, keeping them honest, historians say what the president is actually referring to, General John Pershing's handling of a moment in the Moro rebellion the Philippines in the early 1900s, did not happen, did not happen. So, that's one thing.
For another, if the president somehow offering this made up story as an example of what he would like to do today, today, that would be called a war crime.
So, where does all this growing criticism from Republican lawmakers leave the president and his agenda? New polling from CBS News shows that even though 55 percent of Americans disapprove of how he handled the tragedy, he still enjoys strong support, 67 percent among Republicans.
Joining us is David Bergen, Nia-Malika Henderson and David Chalian.
David Chalian, I mean, those words from Senator Corker, questioning the president's stability, his competence, how significant is that coming from someone who is not only Republican, but someone who is, you know, been a White House ally and avoided criticizing the president?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: It is significant, and, yet, I think we are going to have to separate out the kind of significance, because you just showed those poll numbers. Republicans overall are still with this president out in the country. That doesn't make Corker's break with him less significant. It is incredibly significant.
This is a man who doesn't really delve into the daily political to and fro. He's very much a workhorse in the Senate, and he is using language that we've not heard, never mind from the Democrats, any party. We just have not heard some of the government use this before.
The key thing that I think is so significant here is that we are two days after, Anderson, that press conference, and it's two days later that Senator Corker and Senator Scott are making these comments. To me, if I'm President Trump, I look at that and say, I still have a problem to fix here.
COOPER: Although, David Gergen, you know, a lot of folks on Capitol Hill, Republicans who tweeted, you know, about how bad Nazis are, racism is, never mentioned the president's names. I mean, you have these two questioning the president's fitness to serve by members of his own party, but there's a lot of other folks on Capitol Hill who do distance themselves from what the president said didn't make an attack on the president.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That's absolutely true, Anderson, and many, many Republicans have not spoken up against the president, but they have also dodged speaking up on his behalf.
I do think that especially Senator Corker, his statements today represent one of the most significant breaks from allegiance to the president that we've seen in this entire saga. Bob Corker is not only chair of the House Foreign Relations Committee, but he's one of the most respected senators in the country, and he carries enormous weight, was considered for vice president, there was conversation about him becoming secretary of state.
[20:10:03] I think that, you know, Carl Bernstein and I have been trying to argue here and Carl has been very forceful on this, that the issue of stability, the president's emotional and mental health is going to become increasingly important focus of this story, and should be, because there is something about the president, the way he responds, if you look across the board, this was so much anger and impulsivity, and distrust and narcissism that those are questions, ultimately, about the stability that Senator Corker's now put forcefully into play. I think that is really important along with the competence question.
COOPER: Yes. I mean, Nia, to hear the senator talk about it, use that word "stability," you don't hear people question the stability of the president of the United States every day.
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Right. Certainly not publicly, certainly not from a Republican, and, remember, Corker is up for re-election in 2018. And we just heard the president essentially encouraged a primary challenge for Jeff Flake out in Arizona. So I do think this is a significant and notable break.
You know, maybe it's saying something about the way some Republicans are going to run in 2018, sort of mavericks in a certain way, but I don't think we know yet what this actually means for legislation and how they'll actually vote. Corker, for instance, had been in some ways critical of health care reform and repeal and replace efforts, but went with what the president wanted to see and what Mitch McConnell wanted to see. You know, when they get back from this recess, you're going to have debt ceiling, you're going to have budgeting matters, at some point, you're going to have tax reform as well.
Does what Corker said and what some of the other senators have said like Tim Scott mean anything for how they'll actually behave in terms of backing Trump's agenda in the way that Mitch McConnell lays it out come the fall?
COOPER: You know, David Gergen, you also said the president talked about tweeting out today, you know, studying what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists were caught, there was no more radical terror for 35 years. The president is referring to is widely debunked story of General Pershing dipping bullets in pig's blood to shot Muslim rebels. He referenced the story as a candidate.
But aside the fact that it's false, I'm not clear what exactly he's advocating here. I mean, he's the president of the United States. Obviously, in this day and age, what the allegation is would be considered a war crime.
GERGEN: I --I'm not quite sure what point he was making either, Anderson, other than that you have to be -- he believes that one ought to be brutal, that it makes no difference whether they are war crimes, frankly. What's really important is you put them down.
His point was that Pershing did this horrific thing, and from a Muslim point of view, he put bullets in the blood which the Muslims believe that if you got -- you're infested with blood -- with pig's blood, that's sort of fatal for you. You're going to go to hell, not heaven.
But I think what he was endorsing was a very strong handed response to terrorism because the only way we'll put this down, and by extension, by extension, some of the people who were -- and Charlottesville on the right, you know, they had to use -- his argument would be they were facing, you know, thugs and they had to respond in a thuggish way, and we all know that's not true, but I think he's -- I think that's just his world view.
COOPER: David, do you agree with that, that there is a linkage there?
CHALIAN: I don't -- I think the feat was about terrorism and it was after Barcelona, it was in the news. I do think David is right, though. I think what Donald Trump is doing here is less take his words literally and more just be brutal and tough at all costs and damn be political correctness. That is the place that he's in right now, and that's the argument he went to go make in the Trump Tower Lobby on Tuesday in his mind. It was just enough with this PC nonsense. This is a way for him to go and try to fortify his base, his most core base of support.
(CROSSTALK) COOPER: Go ahead, Nia.
HENDERSON: Go ahead.
Well, I was going to say, he's all lionizing the past, right, sort of lionizing a general in this case, in this sort of brute masculinity and force, and he does this a lot, I think, particularly on the matter of terrorism, right? He talks, for instance, about taking families out of terrorists. He's suggested that. He talked about torture and saying that actually worked, even though people don't believe that worked in terms of forcing confessions.
So, I think this is classic Trump. I mean, there he was in front of the audience, cheering on with this visual, you know, notion about pig's blood and generals. That's what he's up to. He has nostalgia for the way things used to be, and this idea that in some ways, generals and people and Americans have gotten weaker, and part of that weakness, as David said, I think has to do with political correctness and liberals and at left.
[20:15:02] And he's the one that is going to restore the old order. I think that's what he's getting at in many ways with these fables.
COOPER: Yes. Nia-Malika Henderson, David Gergen, David Chalian, thank you.
Just ahead tonight, the man who wrote "Art of the Deal" makes a bold prediction about how much longer the president will be flying on Air Force One. Tony Schwartz joins ahead.
And there's breaking news in the wake of today's on the streets of Barcelona and the man hunt now underway for terrorists.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, there's some sort of new police operation going tonight south of Barcelona. According to Spanish media, it has taken several lives. Unclear so far whether it's in any way connected to today's terror attack in Barcelona itself. That left 13 people and 100 people hurt, two suspects in custody are from that.
However, the driver of the van, the mass murderer, remains at large. The latest on this new operation in just a moment. But, first, how the van attack unfolded earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Around 5:00 p.m. local time, a white van suddenly accelerated into the crowd on one of Barcelona's most popular boulevard, driving at about 50 miles an hour according to eyewitnesses, zigzagging in an effort to hit as many people as possible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
A ton of dead people at Las Ramblas. [20:20:00] It's really awful. Children and everything, others and
small children dead in the middle of Las Ramblas in Barcelona.
COOPER: Spanish authorities confirm this was an act of terrorism with ISIS already claiming the attackers as soldiers of the Islamic State.
ALI SHIRAZIRIA, WITNESS: I saw it plow into, you know, the merchants, pedestrians, people flying over the vehicle, you know, just flying, you know, all around the vehicle, and it was just a really, really horrific scene of, you know, immediate carnage.
COOPER: Panicked survivors fled the horrific scene. The 13 dead and more than 100 injuries strewn all over the boulevard.
This woman points out the number of bodies she can see from her window overlooking Las Ramblas.
Two armed men jumped out of the van after it crashed. Police believe they were trying to reach a get-away vehicle. Two suspects allegedly involved in the attack were later arrested, though the driver of the van is still on the run.
Spain now joins the growing list of European countries with Britain, France, and Germany which have seen vehicles used as weapons of terror against unsuspecting crowds of civilians.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: It's sickening.
A lot to talk about, including this new operation reportedly happening south of Barcelona.
CNN's Becky Anderson is in Barcelona. With us here, CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank.
So, Becky, first of all, let's start with this new incident we're hearing about. Where exactly is it? And what do we know about it?
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: This is the town of Cambrils, which is 120 kilometers southwest of Barcelona, near a city called Tarragona. And what we are being told at present is that there is an ongoing police operation. It is not clear whether it is associated with the terrorist attack that happened just two blocks away from where I am tonight in Barcelona earlier on today, but police authorities telling us that three suspects, three suspects have been as they described taken down in what is a possible terror attack.
Again, I'm going to be very clear about this. It is unclear at present. We are trying to ensure that we are translating Spanish media appropriately, but it's unclear at present whether what is happening in Cambrils, 120 kilometers southwest of here, is associated with what happened on Las Ramblas, in the center of Barcelona today.
What we do know is that residents of that town are being told to stay indoors. COOPER: So --
ANDERSON: As you rightly pointed out, the incident today involving a van plowing into pedestrians on what was an extremely busy pedestrian street in the center of Barcelona killed 13, and we have some 100 others injured. Some 18 nationalities involved as victims of the attack. You pointed out that the van driver abandoned the vehicle, he fled the scene, and he is on the run.
Importantly, authorities have told us that there's no evidence that he is armed. It appears, according to authorities, that he and possibly another may have been trying to get towards a getaway vehicle. It is not clear whether they made it. So, that is the situation from hours ago. We have an ongoing situation now.
COOPER: All right. Just to clarify a couple things. First of all, the afternoon attack, two people were seen, armed people were apparently seen by witnesses, running from the van. Do we assume one of them was the driver and the other was another person, and we assume that driver's not been caught. The two people have been caught. Do we know, is one of them the person who left the vehicle, or do we not know?
ANDERSON: That is not clear either.
COOPER: OK.
ANDERSON: There have been tourists, one a man of Moroccan descent, in a town north of here, another is a man of Spanish identity from a Spanish enclave in Morocco. So, those two arrested. It's unclear whether they are connected with what happened here at Las Ramblas.
COOPER: Got it.
ANDERSON: You can see the developments are very, very quick here.
COOPER: And just -- OK, I got it.
ANDERSON: The van driver -- go on.
COOPER: Right. So, this other incident that's happening, this other operation, we don't know if that's -- if there was a separate terrorist attack 75 miles out of Barcelona, more recently, and now there's a police operation for that, or if the police operation that's going on 75 miles outside of Barcelona has to do with the early terror attack. We don't know if there's a second terrorist attack police are responding to or if it's another operation in relation.
[20:25:03] ANDERSON: Correct.
COOPER: OK. I just wanted to clarify that.
ANDERSON: Correct.
COOPER: So, Paul, I mean, ISIS has claimed responsibility for this. Is it clear -- I mean, is it known that for sure it is ISIS? PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: They offered up no proof in
the claim of responsibility.
COOPER: Do they normally offer proof?
CRUICKSHANK: Well, sometimes, they offer some proof, a video, attack might have reported or some jihad name that they might have. They are opportunistic, and they fraudulently claimed attacks before. Remember that --
COOPER: Wait, Paul, while -- we are going to start putting up pictures that we just received from tape of this operation in Cambrils, which is about 75 miles outside of Barcelona. Again, we don't know if it's a separate terrorist attack police responded to, and they say they have neutralized some people, but -- or if it's a police operation based on the van terrorist attack in Barcelona earlier today. So, continue, sorry.
CRUICKSHANK: Right. So, we don't know whether ISIS was involved. They claimed attacks before where they had no role whatsoever. Even terrorist attacks, remember the Manila casino attack. That was nothing to do with them, but said it was them. So, we'll have to wait and see.
But, certainly, this treated with a great amount of seriousness, horrible loss of life, and, also, very troubling details. The night before, there was a huge house explosion about a couple hundred kilometers away, and one possibility is that that was explosives that were involved. They might have been trying to build a bomb, several bombs. There might have been some kind of malfunction that did not work out so well so they kind of went to plan B and improvised this attack today.
COOPER: What are the capabilities like of the Spanish intelligence, Spanish police, all in terms of coordination with others, and in terms of history with terror in Spain, I was trying to think off the top of my head, I mean, there was a train bombing or train attack years ago?
CRUICKSHANK: That's right. Madrid bombings in March of 2004, which is worst attack in the West since 9/11, 191 people killed in the attack. After that, Spain has really strengthened its counterterrorism capabilities. They were even before that dealing for many years with other groups, but they've really been going after these radicals, terrorists inside the country. There have been about a couple of hundred arrests in the last few years.
A core (ph) of those arrests and counterterrorism investigations have been in Barcelona. So, a really center for radicalization, inside the country, in fact, just in April, nine arrests of a cell believed to be linked to the Brussels terror attack cell, that ISIS cell, and so, Barcelona has seen plotting activity before.
COOPER: We're continuing to follow this closely. We're also going to talk to an American who witnessed the van attack earlier today. We'll talk to him later on tonight.
Paul, thank you. Becky Anderson as well, be careful.
We're going to return to the president next, another of his advisory counsel is scrapped after his reaction to the violence in Charlottesville, but members of the evangelical counsel are not resigning. I'll talk to a member of that group for his take on all of this, as well as Dr. Cornel West.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HERE
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:31:44] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, President Trump has abandoned plan for an infrastructure council even before it was formed. That news comes just a day after two of his business councils disbanded as CEOs fled after the President's response to the violence in Charlottesville.
Tonight later on the program I'm going to talk to one of those leaders, AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka who has left. While business leaders are abandoning the President faith leaders are not members of his evangelical advisory board are staying put. Bishop Harry Jackson is part of the board. He joins now along with Dr. Cornel West of Harvard and Princeton.
Dr. West, I want to start with you. I was thinking of a people of strong faith as leading the way on moral issues and yet what's interesting is, this is situation where you have CEOs of companies which you generally don't think of as necessarily in the vanguard of, you know, making moral decisions. They're the ones who have been with drawing from these councils, and a lot of the faith leaders who have been backing the President are still backing him. What does that say to you?
CORNEL WEST, PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY, HARVARD DIVINITY SCHOOL: You know, there's a long history and religious traditions of various figures accommodating the status quo. Same as you with business --
COOPER: We saw that with Dr. King.
WEST: With King it's critical the status quo.
COOPER: Right. His team was, but there were many others who --
WEST: -- absolutely, absolutely. So, when you think of the clergy there in Charlottesville, this is brother Seth and sister Brittney and brother Cyco (ph) and the others, they were bearing witness, Tracy were bearing witness. We all were trying to bear witness, but it's always a prophetic slice. And when it comes to CEOs, it usually takes them a while. Because they've got profit calculation as well as more witness. But, thank God, they're willing to step forward. But I think most importantly I think we're seeing now an escalating awakening and an intensifying of a bearing witness around the country.
COOPER: You know, it's interesting, I was thinking about the early day because I talked to a rabbi, the synagogue in Charlottesville. We're going to talk to him later on.
WEST: Beautiful.
COOPER: And he was saying that there were brothers and sisters who were catholic, who were other Christian denominations, who were coming standing outside with him outside the synagogue saying we want to stand here to help protect you even though we're not members of your congregation. And that's what -- I think you're talking about people standing up.
WEST: And it was ecumenical friend, we have Buddhist --
COOPER: With Friday night --
WEST: Absolutely. But it's in the legacy of both Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel as well as Professor Susannah Heschel herself. But I want to say this, though, because I think we're in such a crucial moment in the history of American civilization. We've reached a very low point. This is a nadir. But you see my brother I come from a group of people who after being hated for 400 years and still taught the world so much about how to love. And because justice is what love looks like in public, it means you're willing to keep track of not just the best but you're willing to pay a cost put your body on the line to keep alive the best. Not just of this tradition, but of our species. Most of human history is a cycle of hatred, violence, terror, trauma, domination, or oppression. What breaks it is love. What breaks it is bearing witness to justice. What breaks it is radical democratic control so that the victims of an empire, the victims of male supremacy, of white supremacy, the victim of homophobia, transphobia, the victim of anti-Jewish hatred, when those victims have a power says that they render those who are cheating them wrong, accountable, answerable, that's what democracy is all about, but without the love and without the dialogue and without the bearing witness we lose it.
[20:35:24] COOPER: Bishop Jackson, I want to bring you in here.
BISHOP HARRY JACKSON, MEMBER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RELIGIOUS ADVISORY COUNCIL: Yes.
COOPER: You're a supporter. I know criminal justice reform just a few days ago the President told a crowd of police that he wishes they would rough up suspects, not put their hands on their heads as they put them in the police car, let them hit their head.
Now he says there were good people amidst that mob, the white supremacists on Friday night and neo-Nazis carried torches, chanted Jews will not replace us, a Nazi slogan's blood and soil on Friday night outside the church that Dr. Cornel West was in. I'm wondering, does any of that give you pause on this President?
JACKSON: Not really. At this point I am advocating reentering programs people recapturing their lives. Part of criminal justice reform has to do with the over criminalization of the African-American community. I believe that he has open -- his administration is open to working through some of these systemic problems that we have. COOPER: Let me add, where do you see that?
JACKSON: So I'm on the council to be voice about those issues. You know, I see it --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: And the President doesn't seem to talk about that.
JACKSON: We're not at the point yet to talk about those things publicly, but I can tell you they've come up privately. And, again, if you're going to be a prophet to a culture you got at least be in the room with the person you're prophesying to.
So, I believe our President needs biblical direction. I believe that we need to do all the things that Dr. West talked about who is an iconic figure in an African-American community. But I think we're going to have to these voices operating on both sides of the aisle, Republican and Democrat. And I believe that we also have to deal with the education gap in America and we do have to bring jobs to the hood. What I hope is that this President will engage in proactive problem solving at a very, very grassroots level.
COOPER: OK.
JACKSON: That's why many of the folks on the counsel are still there.
COOPER: Let me bring in Dr. West.
WEST: I would say to my dear brother that certainly we want a variety of voices in different contexts, but when you get in that room. You got to tell the truth. You got to bear witness and you got to keep in mind Frederick Douglass. You got to keep in mind John Coltrane "Love Supreme." You got to keep in mind Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On." Love is not a play thing. Love requires --
JACKSON: Yes.
WEST: -- unbelievable vulnerability, willing to take a risk, kenosis, emptying yourself to be of service to the most vulnerable, the underdogs, those who have been trash, marginalize from immigrants to elderly, to trans focus so forth. That's where I bring critique to bear. I mean, when you think --
JACKSON: Don't critique me, though, sir. Don't critique me.
WEST: No, I don't know enough about you to critique you. But if I knew you enough, I probably have something to say. You know what I mean, because --
JACKSON: No, you wouldn't.
WEST: All of us need to be critiqued, brother. All of us need to be criticized. All of us.
JACKSON: We need to hear voice for the voiceless. Yes, we need to hear voice for the voiceless. We all -- yes, we all can be corrected --
WEST: Absolutely because we're all fallible.
JACKSON: Yes, I agree.
WEST: We're all fallible, though, brother, that's all I'm saying.
JACKSON: Yes, but there's only voices that we're hearing for justice are progressive voices, not conservative voices as well, we won't get the message. What I hope my congregation will do is be radical missionaries who enter both parties and then engage in this Democratic process. Largely, we are having African-Americans and Hispanics ignore because they don't vote. We don't vote. We don't engage. We don't aren't active when in the proactive beginnings of these stages.
So, I hope we -- you and I can covenant together to work together toward God's goals.
COOPER: Objection. I understand the argument of being in the room when it happens to, you know, quote from "Hamilton." There is a concern, though, I think some people maybe who are not in that room have that -- the folks are in that room who may be being used because, you know, you're in the room, but are you really being listened to? Is your voice being heard? And I'm wondering, is it possible that there would come a time when -- if the President doesn't move on criminal justice reform and if the Justice Department continues to move down the road they are, under Jeff Session, which seems to be exactly the direct opposite direction from where you want it to go in criminal justice reform that you would rethink your involvement? That you do would actually step down if you felt your voice wasn't being heard?
[20:40:04] JACKSON: Well, I think that's a matter of personal integrity. We've got to believe that our President counts. So, yes, if I feel like I'm never going to be heard, there's no need for me to waste my valuable time. I'm a cancer survivor. I feel like I am on a mission to make a difference with touching (ph) millennials and criminal justice reform.
COOPER: OK.
JACKSON: Those are my life issues. I'm not going to compromise or sell out on those.
COOPER: I appreciate that. Dr. West, let me just to finish with you. You know, there were a lot folks, I've been hearing from them. Literally they stop in street over the last couple of days. People are scared. People are worried. People are, you know, black, white, gay, straight, whoever they are, there's a lot of people from a lot of advantage points, and I'm wondering what you would say to the people tonight who are sitting in their homes who are worried that this is not the country they recognize. That this is not moving the direction that it seems inclusive of all people. What do you say to people?
WEST: I would say that it's clear that the nation has the blues and we can learn something from the blues people, and the blues people are on intimate terms with catastrophe. They wake up every day with a heartache and a heart break. And so for me it's not new. A whole lot of folk, indigenous people and other working -- it's not new at all. But we're fortified. We not just stand and work. We are staying fortified because we can make a difference by doing what, telling the truth, the condition of truth is allow suffering to speak being sensitive to those who suffer no matter what color.
One of my critiques my dear brother is you can't just talk about black people. You got to be morally consistent. You got to stay in contact with the humanity of everybody. That's indigenous people, that's Latinos, a gay brothers, lesbian, bisexuals, trans, that's people around the world in Africa, in Tel Aviv, in Gaza, and so forth. You can't just be tribal and narrow. You got to have that overarching vision. That's the legacy of Jerusalem of an aimless of Martin Luther King Jr. of (INAUDIBLE) Mary Lou Williams on the piano. You listen to that love --
JACKSION: Can I add a last word?
COOPER: Sure. Yes.
JACKSON: I think this is so very important. The church is at fault in many ways what's happening in our culture today immorally --
WEST: That's true, my brother. That's true, my brother.
JACKSON: And I believe -- right, Martin Luther King Jr.'s letter from the Birmingham jail still applies to today. So accept your critique and I would just open it up. We need to call our nation to pray. We need to have a focused agenda.
And some guys like you and me, doctor who I deeply respect, we need to learn how to work together across these great aisles so that there will be a unified sound of conscience and a return to morality that these nation needs. Thank you.
COOPER: Bishop Jackson, I appreciate you've been with us. And Dr. West you bring Fredrick Douglas and John Coltrane, and Marvin Gaye in the room every time --
WEST: I salute you. And you're truth --
COOPER: I appreciate it, thank you sir.
(CROSSTALK)
WEST: -- in this context.
COOPER: Appreciate it. I like it when you call me brother.
WEST: You are my brother too.
COOPER: We're getting new information about the police operation going on in South of Barcelona. We're going have more on that a live report on that next. Also the guy who wrote the "Art of the Deal," which, you know, Donald Trump says he wrote. But actually there's a guy who wrote it. What he thinks is likely going to happen to the President. And he actually thinks President is going to resign. I'm going to speak to the author, Tony Schwartz, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:46:09] COOPER: As we've been reporting on the manhunt for the driver and stays deadly van attack in Barcelona. Spanish authorities have been carrying out another operation, a separate one. South of their Spanish media reporting four of what they're calling terrorist are dead in the wake of that. CNN's Becky Anderson is in Barcelona. She joins us now. So this other operation, Becky, it's about 75 miles outside of Barcelona. What do we know?
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR: Let's be clear about what we know and what we don't know at this point. This Spanish state broadcast TVE reporting that four terrorists, as they described them, have been killed in what they described as a terror incident in the town of Cambrils and Tarragona which is about 75 miles southwest of Barcelona.
What we know is this is a separate incident, not, it seems, related to what happened here in Barcelona late this afternoon about two blocks away from me on Las Ramblas, which is the main pedestrian thoroughfare here in Barcelona where 13 were killed and more than 100 were injured when a van plowed into pedestrians and tourists, throwing them across the road. This is men women, and children. The van driver fled the scene. He abandoned the vehicle. And he as we understand it is still on the run.
We were told a little earlier. There's no evidence that he is armed. It does appear he may have been trying to get toward a getaway vehicle, but it's not clear whether he made it. So it appears two separate incidents. One around 5:00 p.m. this afternoon on Las Ramblas, a deadly, deadly attack when van plows into pedestrian, 13 dead, more than a 100 injured. And in the past couple of hours, and only being reported in the past few minutes, four terrorists as they described now dead, 75 kilometers -- sorry, 75 miles southwest of here in the town of Cambrils near the city of Terragona. That is what is clear at this point. Anderson.
COOPER: Becky, I appreciate that. We're going to continue to follow this throughout the course the next hour. More now, though, here at home, President Trump's ongoing difficulties.
Tony Schwartz knows the President. He really knows and no one else really does and he says he's probably going to resign, in his opinion. He thinks the President will resign. Ultimately, Schwartz spent nearly a year with Trump ghostwriting "The Art of the Deal". He quote, he tweeted this, "The circle is closing a blinding speed. Trump is going to resign and declare victory before Mueller and Congress leave him no choice. Trump's presidency is effectively over." He said, "Would be amazed if he survives till the end of the year. More likely resigns by fall if not sooner." Tony Schwartz joins me now. So Tony, I mean, I'm wondering what -- I mean, you and I have talked about this before, you thought this may be for long time, what makes you feel so strongly now?
TONY SCHWARTZ, CO-AUTHOR, "THE ART OF THE DEAL": Well, I think the snowball is beginning to gather momentum as it comes down the mountain. And it reminds me a lot of Watergate in the last days of Nixon. When the tide turns, it really turns and that's what happened here. You look at the range of things that have happened most notably his response to -- event in Virginia this last week, and what he's gone back and forth saying to Kim Jong-un about North Korea, and you've got kind of -- he put himself in an isolated no-win position.
The level of itself disruptiveness is staggering, but what he's done is he's pushed away all the potential allies and they were beginning to diminish in number anyway, but he's now pushed away business people, CEOs. He's now pushed away Bannon. You see Bannon playing politics with his own boss. He's pushed away, you know, a good percentage of the Congress, even in his own party.
[20:50:13] So where's the potential to survive? And then sitting in the background on this, Anderson, of course is Mueller's continuing investigation into Russia. And look, this is not a boy scout Donald Trump, never was part of the boy scouts. He's been doing -- he's been lying -- it's not he started lying when he became president or when he started running for president. This is a man who's been deceitful and manipulative for 50 years plus. So what's going to get uncovered by an investigation that really looks into every corner is almost incalculable. And my belief for about why he will resign is but.
COOPER: But, I mean, for, you know, a president who hates losers, talks about losers as if losing something is the worst thing imaginable, if he left the presidency before his term, wouldn't he be considered a loser and wouldn't that be intolerable or you saying he's going to try to come up with some way to make, you know, a Sarah Palin, an attempt to do quitting seem like working harder or being a victory?
SCHWARTZ: Yes. There's no question he's going to do that because he paints even the most disastrous of things he does, including what he said about the events in Virginia over the past week, as evidence of his own brilliance. So what he's going to do is he's going to blame it on the Democrats. He's going to actually blame it on the Republicans. He's going to blame it on anybody he can and he's going to say that he did everything he could to save America and, by the way, I don't want to write his talk for him, his resignation speech. But he is going to try his very best to paint this as his own victory and he's the ultimate victim. But he did everything he could.
COOPER: All the time you spent with him --
SCHWARTZ: And he's going to do it, of course, to stay out of prison. That's why he's going to do it.
COOPER: All the time you spent with him, did he ever express any sort of moral equivalence between, you know, racist and those who counter them? I mean, were you surprised by the remarks that he made unscripted, without a teleprompter on Tuesday?
SCHWARTZ: Look, it's hard not to be surprised by any human being who says the kind of unbelievably crazy things he said. Who talk -- it's not even moral equivalence. Believe me, the word moral never came up during the 18 months that I spent with Donald Trump. That was not part of his vocabulary. It was, how do I do whatever is best for me or what I perceive is best for me and how do I get over on everybody else. The idea of moral equivalence, I guarantee you that that phrase is no more than a few days old in Donald Trump's brain.
COOPER: Tony Schwartz, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Coming up, we're going to hear from the rabbi in Charlottesville who was inside his synagogue with congregates. Nazis marched by chanting "Sieg Heil" outside is synagogue. I'll talk to him ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:56:39] COOPER: The president of the congregation Beth Israel in Charlottesville tells a harrowing story about the rabbi and dozens of people went through inside their synagogue this past Saturday. A man dressed in fatigues armed with long rifle standing across the street from the temple praise Nazi, passing the building, shouting "there's the synagogue" and "Sieg Heil."
Having to remove the torahs in the Holocaust world to keep them safe because they were afraid the synagogues was going to be burned down.
Earlier today, I spoke with the Rabbi Tom Gutherz.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: I'm wondering if you can just describe what this past weekend was like for you and the other members of your congregation, particularly on Saturday when you had neo-Nazis, white supremacists, people with automatic weapons outside your synagogue.
RABBI THOMAS GUTHERZ, CONGREGATION BETH ISRAEL: Yes. Well, I'll tell you. It was obviously a very shocking to see also in some ways wake- up call. You know, it's one thing to read the hate on the internet on a website and you imagine a person sitting in the basement typing it out in anger, but to actually see the hate, to see it really walking in front of you, to see people walking around the streets, it was really quite an experience. We had people all over town armed, walking around with arms, and all kinds of uniforms. Nobody quite knew who was who. I mean, eventually but you did, you know, when they started chanting or when they unfurled their flags. It's part of the experience here of being on the streets of Charlottesville and seeing just people marching past with a lot of anger in their eyes and carrying guns. People were, you know, trying to find the right way to react and to keep the tempers down and to be able to express ourselves peacefully without encountering violence.
All over there were scenes -- one day the story will be told about the incredible things that happened in the solidarity between people here in Charlottesville, all faiths and of all different kinds. COOPER: You know, the President has a religious advisory council. To our knowledge, no one on that council has resigned in protest over what the President has said. I'm wondering if you're surprised by that, if you feel that as a person of faith that the people -- somebody at least on that council might have stepped down.
GUTHERZ: Yes. I mean, if I had a teaching to share with the President, you know, it would be this. I mean, there is a teaching by Reb Nachman and says this, and it's not just for the President but I think it's for everybody, every person, but certainly for leaders.
You know, he says if you believe that you can destroy, then you must believe that you can repair. And I think that means that once in a while everybody who is a leader, whether it's of a small organization, or a big country or just a person, sometimes has to look in the mirror and say, you know, have I been part of this, what have I done? And if you recognize your part in it, it's to do whatever you can, the same energy, the same passion, the same skill that created a problem, you can apply to repairing a problem and that's what I think leadership is about, helping to repair and helping to move forward and I would hope that the President and everyone else who's involved in this will take that to heart.
COOPER: You know, one of the things the President said was that on Friday night, on the UVA campus, those people who had marched upon the Robert E. Lee statue, that there were good people among them, that they weren't all neo-Nazis and white supremacists.
