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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Sources: Extreme Measures Being Considered to Protect Whistleblower Identity if He or She Talks to Congress; Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) is Interviewed About House Democrats Considering Extreme Measures to Protect Whistleblower Identity; President Trump: "Not At All" Concerned By Second Whistleblower. Aired on 8-9p ET

Aired October 07, 2019 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:15]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.

We begin with breaking news on the whistleblower, now one of two, and what we're learning about the extreme measures being considered to safeguard his or her identity should they testify before the House Intelligence Committee. This individual's complaint is, of course, what started this impeachment inquiry.

And even though the law is designed to protect those who come forward from retaliation, this is in a different league altogether, as apparently are some of these security precautions being considered.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty joins us now with that.

So, what did you learn about these so-called extreme measures?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, these discussions, Anderson, are underway between the committee and the lawyers for the whistleblower, all to protect the identity of the whistleblower when and if he or she ultimately decides to come forward and speak before the committee. There are a whole host of options being considered, things like masking this person's image, masking their identity, potentially going off site away from Capitol Hill to hold this briefing in a secure room off Capitol Hill, and also limiting the number of people in the room and who's in the room, potentially limiting it between staff and members of the House.

So, a lot of things being sorted out right now. And, of course, again, underscore the security and the identity of this whistle-blower is protected and a source tells CNN tonight, a Democratic source in the House Intelligence Committee says this was all prompted because of concerns that Republicans on the committee could leak the whistle- blower's identity.

COOPER: So, is there any sense of a timeline for the whistle-blower to testify?

SERFATY: Not yet. These discussions have been underway for quite some time now. Since initially when the whistleblower complainant had come forward and beyond just sorting out of logistics of how this could happen, a big thing that they're working through right now, according to sources is that the whistleblower's attorney, they are still trying to get the appropriate security clearance to make sure that when and if this happens, that they can be by the side of their client -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Sunlen Serfaty, thanks very much.

As this is happening, many Republicans are scrambling to excuse the behavior at the heart of the whistleblower complaint. Whoever one today did not, Ohio Republican Senator Rob Portman, telling "The Columbus Dispatch", and I quote: The president should not have raised the Biden issue on that call, period. It's not appropriate for a president to engage a foreign government in an issue of a political opponent.

With that, Senator Portman joins Mitt Romney and precious few other Republicans. Some are simply lying low. Others are calling it outlandish claims, including that this was all just the president having a laugh at the public's expense or media's expense, starting with Marco Rubio who talked about the president asking China to investigate the Bidens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): I don't know if that's a real request for him just needling the press, knowing that you guys are going to get outraged by it.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST: Do you think it's appropriate for President Trump to ask China and Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden?

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): George, you think he was serious that China is going investigate the Biden family?

STEPHANOPOULOS: He said it right there.

SEN. ROY BLUNT (R-MO): Well, I doubt the China comment was serious to tell you the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don't take the president at his word?

BLUNT: No. The president loves to go out on the White House driveway -- I have to talk to him about this. I don't know what the president was thinking but I know he loves to bait the press and he does that almost every day to see what you'll talk about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, the notion that the president is a gyrate humorist is actually laughable. You'll remember, during the campaign when the president asked Russia if they were listening to look into Hillary Clinton's emails. And guess what, according to Mueller report, hours later Russian operatives began to do that.

As for it being a joke, asking Ukraine and China to investigate the Bidens, we already know he asked Ukraine to do just that and it was on a private call that was never meant to go public. That was no joke to bait the press. How about the pressure campaign for months leading up to that call at the end of July involving his TV lawyer Rudy Giuliani? Was that part of the gag? Giuliani may be amusing but it's not intentional on his part.

How about the text messages between diplomats discussing the elements of what one believed to be a quid pro quo. Are Republicans going to say that was part of the comedy windup?

As the investigation to China to investigation, which Rubio and Jordan and Blunt all are suggesting was just a great gag by the jokester in chief, take a look at what the president said on camera and decide for yourself whether he's joking, baiting the press or merely restating what he told Ukraine's president he wanted all along.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I would think that if they were honest about it, they'd start a major investigation into the Bidens. It's a very simple answer. Likewise, China should start an investigation into the Bidens because what happened to China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:05:06]

COOPER: Did that seem like a joke to you? If it was, it was a real knee slapper. It seemed pretty clear and direct, unlike the answers yesterday from Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson on NBC.

Before I show you the exchange with Chuck Todd, Senator Johnson told "The Wall Street Journal" last week that the possibility of a Ukraine quid pro quo made him winced. Johnson is the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee. Years ago, he publicly advocated along with Vice President Joe Biden for the removal of that Ukrainian prosecutor who President Trump and Rudy Giuliani now claim was inappropriately forced out by Joe Biden.

As of yesterday, Senator Johnston sure seemed to have changed his tune.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): I've never seen a present administration be sabotaged from the day after the election. I've never seen no measure of honeymoon whatsoever. And so, what President Trump's had to endure, false accusation -- by the way, you've got John Brennan on. You ought to ask Director Brennan what did Peter Strzok mean when he texted Lisa Page on December 15th, 2016, quote --

CHUCK TODD, MEET THE PRESS: Senator --

JOHNSON: No, no, Chuck, let me finish.

(CROSSTALK) TODD: What this has to do with Ukraine?

JOHNSON: Scorn and --

TODD: What does this have to do with Ukraine?

JOHNSON: There are a lot of unanswered questions. Chuck, I just want the truth. The American people want the truth.

TODD: So, do you not trust the Americ -- do you not trust the FBI? You don't trust the CIA?

JOHNSON: No. No, I don't.

TODD: I'm confused here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, so much double talk and double standards, it's hard not to be confused. It's always good when somebody has what they want to say already written out is actually reading off it when they're being interviewed on TV.

Senator Richard Blumenthal joins us now, Democrat of Connecticut and a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

First of all, this reporting on the extreme measures that are being considered to protect the whistle-blower, how real is the danger of this whistle-blower being revealed to you?

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): The danger is very real and urgent. Protecting whistleblowers is a long established practice.

I have worked with Senator Grassley. It's been bipartisan. I'm seeking to protect whistleblowers in other situations and through legislation, other means. And protecting this whistleblower is particularly urgent because of the president's threats. There is --

COOPER: Not just -- not just for the safety of this person, this person's career, but as a message to other potential whistleblowers out there, even in the future, that you will be protected if you come forward. If you can't protect this person, then it sends a chilling effect, I would imagine, on the rest.

BLUMENTHAL: Speaking truth to power takes courage and protecting whistle blowers is absolutely essential to stopping waste and fraud in government but also to deterring retaliation and retribution which is all too common.

COOPER: When you hear, you know, some of your fellow senators, members of Congress saying, oh, well the president was joking when he called on China and the Ukraine to investigate the Bidens, I mean, there is no evidence that there's any humor in this president on this subject at all.

BLUMETHAL: Anybody listening to the president finds it anything but laughable when the president of the United States invites interference by a foreign government in our election or sells out our national security as he was doing then, as he did in the conversation with the Ukrainian president and, frankly, as he did when he welcomed Russian interference in our election in 2014 when he was a candidate. That is hardly laughable. It is deadly serious and that's the reason why the focus on in fact this abuse of power and offense against the Constitution is so important in moving the impeachment proceeding forward.

COOPER: It seems like that ends the idea, oh, he's joking, which I guess I first heard it from Rubio, then Jim Jordan seemed to go along with it, now Blunt does. It seems like, you know, the other possibilities are either -- well, it's fine what the president said, asking for pressure of a regime like China who is not known for fair, investigative powers, or it's not OK. There's no -- those are the two answers that are possible. They've made up this oh, it was a joke because it spares them from having to choose one or the other real answer.

BLUMENTHAL: The silence of my Republican colleagues is absolutely unsustainable and inexcusable. They can no longer rely on these bogus, debunked conspiracy theories on the one hand, or dismissive sayings that it's laughable or unserious on the part of the president.

Look at the transcript, the president's own words, in talking to the Ukrainian president inviting, soliciting him to interfere in our elections, to dig up dirt on a political opponent and then to talk about it in the way that he did in that clip about China.

[20:10:00]

That kind of talk is a grave threat to our national security, interference in our elections. And also the failure to take action against him will embolden those tactics and embolden our adversaries.

COOPER: Is it just -- I mean, is it pure and simple fear on the part of those members of Congress who have remained silent? Because I -- I mean, I suppose one on one many would say something different than -- I'm sure they're not silent one on one.

BLUMENTHAL: There is no love for Donald Trump on the part of many of my Republican colleagues and there is severe disdain for him and growing --

COOPER: Do you hear that? People say that to you?

BLUMENTHAL: Absolutely, and the conversations I have with many of my Republican colleagues. There is growing fear for our democracy in the polarization, in the divisions that Donald Trump is enhancing and deepening.

But they, on the other hand, fear his potential opposition of them in a Republican primary. That's the Rubicon they have to cross. Their silence is unsustainable. History is going to judge them partially. The voters will.

This decision, whatever it is, on the future of the president will haunt them.

COOPER: You say it's unsustainable for them to remain silent or acquiesce. Why do you think it's unsustainable? If President Trump gets re-elected then certainly they will be rewarded for their silence.

BLUMENTHAL: I think it's unsustainable as a matter of conscience. I think it's also unsustainable politically. But in terms of their duty, the reason they are in these jobs and their oath of office, it is unsustainable in a matter of conscience.

COOPER: Do you -- I mean, do you believe though in this day and age there is a lot of people who still have a conscience in that sense and would sacrifice their job or risk -- run the risk of being primaried?

BLUMENTHAL: I have to believe people continue to have a conscience in these jobs but I also think they will begin to see shifts in the American public. You know, I --

COOPER: And that's what it's going to take, shifts in the American public and then that gives them the cover/courage to then move along?

BLUMENTHAL: That's what eventually moved the Republicans in Watergate, the sense that the American public seismically and tectonically was moving against them and their positions were no longer sustainable. I think the same phenomenon is going to happen here.

And I sense it as I go around my state. I talk to colleagues who are seeing this shift in their states, and that's why you see Senator Portman saying, as he did, I have no hope that it's going to happen without additional confirming corroborating evidence before the House, but I'm still hoping it will.

COOPER: Senator Blumenthal, appreciate your time.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

COOPER: Coming up, the president has just weighed in on this. Live report from the White House next on what the president said about the second whistleblower who apparently has direct knowledge.

And later, Democratic presidential candidate Beto O'Rourke on this, on impeachment and what some have interned as criticism of Joe Biden.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:17:26]

COOPER: More breaking news tonight. President Trump has spoken to reporters about the existence of a second whistleblower.

Jim Acosta joins us now from the White House with more.

So, I know the president spoke to reporters late today. What's his latest pushback?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson, he didn't say a whole lot about that second whistleblower. He said that he's not concerned about it, doesn't think it's going to have any bearing on what's taking place up on Capitol Hill right now.

But we did hear one new line from the president earlier today where he said that this impeachment inquiry is making it harder for him to do his job as president. That was one of the newer lines of attack, I suppose, if you want to call it that or newer lines of defense. The president went on to say that he doesn't understand how he could be even thought of in terms of impeachment inquiries at this point when he says he's doing such a good job.

That, of course, is not going to work for Democrats, who are going to continue this impeachment inquiry. But, Anderson, keep in mind one of the things we've been hearing from the White House and its defenders over the last few days is a couple of things.

One is that the president was just joking when he was talking the other day about China investigating Joe Biden. That obviously flies in the face of when the president originally made that remark. He sounded very serious when he was talking about not only China but Ukraine investigating Joe Biden.

And Larry Kudlow, the president's top economic adviser came out of the White House today and was asked about this, and said he didn't know whether or not the president was joking. One thing that is for sure, Anderson, is that more and more Republicans are coming out to say that they're concerned about this. Rob Portman, the Ohio senator, Republican Party, came out today and said he didn't think it was appropriate for the president to make that kind of request of the Ukrainians during his phone call. But he said it doesn't rise to the level of impeachment at this point -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes. I mean, all the subpoenas coming from the house investigation -- there's the White House, the Pentagon, Rudy Giuliani. Any reason to believe they're going to comply?

ACOSTA: Well, I think at this point it does remain to be seen. I will tell you, Anderson, one of the things we've been looking for over the last few days is whether or not the White House was going to carry out this threat to fire off a letter to the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, saying, you need to have a formal vote on an impeachment inquiry before we cooperate and hand over information. We were expecting that letter to come on Friday, and then it was Monday.

I'm told by a source close to the situation that it should come tomorrow. But there's no ironclad guarantee at this point that we're going to see that letter. Having said all of that, one of the things you're going to be hearing, I think, moving forward -- ask we heard this from the president last week. I think you'll hear it from his defenders this week is that they were very cooperative during the Russia investigation. They'll be cooperative here on out as far as this inquiry is concerned.

But, Anderson, that flies in the face of the facts.

[20:20:02]

As you and I both know, the White House has been dragging its feet and did drag its feet during the Russia investigation, never offered the president up to the Mueller team for an in-person interview. They had to settle for written answers to questions from the special counsel's investigators. And there's no reason to believe that this current team that's around the president, advising him on impeachment, will act otherwise -- Anderson.

COOPER: Jim Acosta, thanks very much.

Whatever the president says about all this tonight, something else spoke volumes over the weekend. The White House put nobody on the Sunday news shows, no one.

We, on the other hand, have three CNN political analysts, David Gergen, who's worked for Democratic and Republican administrations, "USA Today" columnist Kirsten Powers, and investigative reporter and author Carl Bernstein.

Kirsten, you heard Jim describe the atmosphere at the White House. Tonight, the president says he's not worried though he obviously fumed all weekend on Twitter.

Do you see any coherent strategy coming together here?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, no, I wouldn't call it a coherent strategy. But I do think the president tends to operate very well in chaos, and so he creates a lot of chaos. And I think that he maybe on some level believes -- and Mick Mulvaney said as much -- that they believe that somehow that is going to come -- you know, redound to the advantage of the president because it's going to be bad for the Democrats to be impeaching Donald Trump.

COOPER: David, I mean do you think that's true? I mean, is Mulvaney right?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think so.

Listen, the administration basically is throwing up one argument after another to see what sticks, what works. They're not searching for the truth. They're not trying to conduct an investigation which most White Houses would do.

Rather, they're just looking for an argument that somehow they can convince enough people to keep the president's base together. And that's why I think the rest of the country is looking at this and saying, that's just nonsense.

I think one other thing, Anderson. In terms of people coming out who are heavyweights, it was important that Colin Powell came out and told Republicans they need to get a grip, his party. They need to get a grip on all of this. And then the Peter Baker story in "The New York Times" today where he

went back and interviewed 10 past chiefs of staff for presidents stretching back to Reagan. Every single one said they would never have ever done anything like this. They rejected these kind of calls when they occasionally came up, and they all saw it as well.

COOPER: Carl, I mean, now that the second whistleblower has apparently come forward, who, I mean, according to reporting, has direct knowledge that some of the things the first whistleblower only had secondhand knowledge of, do you see that changing anything?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think it's going to be both dramatic, and he is going to have apparently firsthand knowledge of what transpired here. I think that what all of this becomes more and more is considerable evidence building that we have a fundamentally corrupt president who is a danger to the national security, has undermined our democratic system, and is also increasingly unstable.

And I know that many Republicans are looking at this and are aware of a good part of that equation, if not all of that. Whether they will ever say it aloud is something else. And I think there are people in the White House who recognize that there are Republicans who are aware of all of the things that I just said on an evidentiary level.

And that's where we're heading in a kind of really unprecedented crisis when you put all those elements together. And remember that the president's closest national security advisers, Mattis, McMaster, Kelly, others, Tillerson, all left saying to others that the president of the United States is a threat to our own national security, and we're seeing it, including what we saw with turkey today.

COOPER: Kirsten, the thing that's interesting to me about the Rubio, Jim Jordan, Blunt, you know, line about this being a joke, that the president wasn't serious about asking China, and that this was kind of tweaking reporters, A, there's no evidence whatsoever that this was a joke in any form. And, in fact, this president does not tell jokes or is not a person who has much of a sense of humor or even smiles that much.

But even if it was a joke, the joke is predicated on the notion that it would be so wrong and absurd for the president of the United States to ask China to investigate the Bidens that it couldn't possibly be real. It has to be a joke. But, I mean, all the evidence points to it being real, and therefore, by their own logic, they think that is wrong and inappropriate.

POWERS: Well, we know that they think it's wrong and inappropriate because when the accusation was made about Russia and any kind of operating with another country that was just completely out of the question, and it would never happen. So, they definitely keep sort of changing the rules of the game. And I think that they don't know what to do because I think they do recognize that this is wrong.

[20:25:03] I mean there's no question that they know that this is wrong. And so, they have to come up with some answer, and the best they can do is that he's joking even though -- I mean what about -- it doesn't -- like you said, it doesn't make any sense in the sense that he's not known really as being a jokester. It's not really funny. I mean, there's that.

COOPER: Right.

POWERS: And then also doesn't the president of the United States have anything better to do than trying to tweak the media? So, the whole argument isn't really believable, but I think that they feel like they're caught between a rock and a hard place because they can't defend it, and they can't criticize it.

COOPER: Yes. Stick around. We're going to come back to everyone. We're going to take a short break.

Coming up, also members of President Trump's re-election team gathered on a conference call aimed at shoring up support in the face of calls for his impeachment.

[20:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: The word tonight from President Trump, he says he is not worried about a second whistleblower. In the meantime, CNN is reporting that members of President Trump's reelection team held a conference call today alongside the Republican National Committee where national polls show increased support for impeachment were discredited and new donors were offered as proof the Democrats are heading down the wrong path.

Back now with out team. David, I know you want to comment on the Republican talking point that the President was joking when he asked two separate foreign powers to investigate Biden.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you, Anderson. Yes. It may be a joke to Republican senators, it is not being treated as a joke in China. The Financial Times has reporting today both out of Washington and out of China that this is further complicated, the trade talks that are underway.

Now, US and China are already far apart on the trade talks, but it reports that there's a real poll over those talks and there may not be an agreement. And this will have direct impact on the economy, economic growth, and could in turn threaten the President himself if the economy further craters and the stock market is always going down sharply because of trade talks.

COOPER: Well, David, I mean, what essentially, if that is the case, if this affects the trade talks, you can make a direct line then. I mean, Americans being harmed by lack of progress in trade talks to the President's desire to investigate the Bidens. I mean, if his calls to have China investigate the Bidens has trade ramifications, that ends up hurting American citizens.

GERGEN: I think that's absolutely right. It does seem to me that there are repercussions from this whole controversy that are damaging US everywhere. In many, many countries because -- especially after the decision on pulling back the troops precipitously out of Syria today, which shocked so many was not cleared with our allies.

And once again on many different fronts, other nations are seeing this as serious not a joke. When the attorney general to the United States goes globe trotting around to places like Italy, to try to get dirt, when the President is talking to the head of Australia, when you have all of the other countries involved it is not a joke.

COOPER: Yes. Carl, I mean, when you look at the way the president is attacking Mitt Romney, I guess, it's not really surprising that more Republicans haven't come forward.

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't know that that's the reason, the way he's attacked Romney. I think that Republicans recognize that this president is the president of his base, and that base is very large. And that they are in fear of that base and what that base could do to their own election prospects.

But I think there's another element here. I want to go back to the whistleblower or both whistleblowers in this case. And that is what the President said about the first whistleblower when he mentioned that he was a spy, he or she was a spy and what we used to do to spies and he was guilty of treason. A kind of threat that is so dark and dangerous.

And now, the committee of Congress is trying to figure out how to protect this whistleblower for real fears that Republicans might reveal his identity to the White House and others, which will show you where we have gone in this.

And one of the great dangers here is that the President perceives no question that these whistleblowers have witnessed things, especially perhaps the second whistleblower, that have yet to be revealed. And he is reacting as someone who knows there is more coming.

That's speculative to some extent. I think it's also based, what I have just said, on some people who have some knowledge of the second whistleblower.

COOPER: Carl Bernstein, David Gergen, Kirsten Powers, thank you very much.

Coming up next, President Trump's surprise plan to leave a long-time ally high and dry, and the push back from a number of his Republican supporters.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:35:00]

COOPER: Breaking news now. President Trump tonight defending his plan to withdraw American troops from a region of Syria, that's home to some of America's oldest allies in the region. If the troops do leave, Turkey would be free to launch military operations against the Kurds, an ancient enemy of Turkey, but again long key ally of the United States.

Speaking after a signing ceremony, the White House claimed his decision was not intended to favor anyone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: I'm not siding with anybody. We've been in Syria for many years. You know, Syria was supposed to be a short-term hit, just a very short-term hit. We were supposed to be in and out. That was many, many years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Still, even some of the President's most resolute supporters say the planned withdrawal is flat wrong. Senate Majority Mitch McConnell for one said that decision should be reversed because it would, and I quote, "only benefit Russia, Iran and the Assad regime." Senator Lindsey Graham as you know is a staunch defender of the President when it comes to the Ukraine and Russia investigations, told Fox News in a phone interview that withdrawal was "shortsighted and irresponsible."

For UN Ambassador Nikki Haley was even stronger on Twitter tweeting, "We must always have the backs of our allies if we expect them to have our back. The Kurds were instrumental in our successful against ISIS in Syria. Leaving them to die is a big mistake. #TurkeyIsNotOurFriend."

Joining me now, retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters, a Military Analyst and Author. Colonel Peters, you just heard the President say that, late today, that his quote "not siding with anybody" and he claims he told Turkey's president, Erdogan, that there would be "trouble" if anything "outside of what we think is humane happens." Can the Kurds count on that?

LT. COLONEL RALPH PETERS (RET.), AUTHOR, MILITARY STRATEGIST: No, of course not. And the President, unfortunately, he lies like a little boy caught stealing from his mom's purse. When you unilaterally withdraw the US forces, the tripwire forces, protecting the best allies we have ever had in the Middle East outside of Israel, at the behest of Islamist desperate who despises United States and wants to slaughter our best allies, then I'd say you're taking sides, Anderson.

[20:40:04]

COOPER: The President tweeted today in part, "As I've stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the economy of turkey. I've done before."

I mean, how do you even respond to that? I'm not, I mean, the idea that -- I don't know if anybody who actually does have great and unmatched wisdom ever saying they have great and unmatched wisdom.

PETERS: I feel like we're on "Saturday Night Live." But, my god, in my unmatched wisdom, you can't believe a word Trump says and he was surprised by the backlash.

I mean, clearly on a phone call, Trump lives in the moment. Erdogan called him. Trump did what Erdogan told him to do, convince it was the right thing to do, was shocked by the backlash even from Republicans who amazingly found some spine on this. And now he's waffling, backtracking, he doesn't want to leave the forces there. Because then, it looks like he folded.

And I think right now while the Kurds are under great threat, Trump doesn't know what to do. And my concern is that Erdogan, who just been itching to kill the Kurds, to just slaughter them, may move pretty quickly.

COOPER: It also, I mean, the message it sends to other nations or other groups who might, you know, in the future that the US might need to work with.

PETERS: Trump has consistently attacked our allies, great and small, from NATO to the Kurds. At the same time he has repeatedly and enthusiastically embraced despots. Kim Jong-un, Erdogan of Turkey, el-Sisi in Egypt, President Xi with that on and off relationship, and let us not forget Vladimir Putin whose birthday it is today, and who is set to profit greatly from the US abandonment of the Kurds.

You know, first of all, the Syrian government, Russia's client, and the Iranians are also ready to pounce, not just the Turks. The Kurds may be forced as we abandon them if Trump lives up to this and does that, they may be forced into the arms of Iran for god's sakes and the Russians.

So with his impulsive idiocy last night, Trump has endangered not just the Kurds but the progress made against ISIS, and in fact the entire region. It's amazing that so small a gesture to Trump could have world shaking reverberations.

COOPER: Also criticism from, I mean, as you noted, it was -- I don't know if it was surprising, but for a GOP which has pretty much remained silent on saying anything negative about President Trump, you did have Lindsey Graham who has become one of Trump's biggest-- or, you know, boosters and Majority Leader Mitch McConnell obviously a staunch supporter of the President, at least publicly, quickly calling him to reverse his decision.

PETERS: Well, I think what you're seeing, Anderson, is schizophrenia on Capitol Hill, in the Senate and in the Republican Party. Whereas, they are still committed to American security and so they'll go after Trump on this. But they still don't seem to be committed to the constitution to which they took their oath.

When it comes to the constitution in Trump's violations, they're still willing to condone it. And one would hope that at some point, more and more Republicans will get the backbone and realize that at the end of their lives, it's not going to matter how rich they are. It's not going to matter how many times they were re-elected.

What will matter is, as for all of us, did they do the right thing for their country? Did they do the honorable thing? Even apart from illegality, did they behave ethically and morally? And so far the answer is a resounding no.

COOPER: Colonel Peters, appreciate your time. Thank you.

PETERS: Thank you.

COOPER: Well, just ahead, my conversation with Beto O'Rourke on the Republicans staying silent about the President's behavior.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:00]

COOPER: so much ground to cover tonight. Extreme whistleblower protection, abandoning Kurdish allies and claims the President was joking about Joe Biden and getting China to investigate the Bidens. I want to check on Chris to see what he's working on. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: No joke, Anderson. It was no joke.

COOPER: Yes.

CUOMO: And we're going to take a look tonight at what's going on with Turkey and Syria, two different ways. One is militarily in terms of the political calculations there, and why so many on the right and left are upset about that. And then, we're going to try and slip into why that doesn't transfer, that sense of righteous indignation and putting policy before politics that we're seeing on that issue, on what they have to know this President did with Ukraine.

They know it was wrong, why aren't more people saying that? Impeach or not, that's a different conversation.

COOPER: Right.

CUOMO: But the idea that it isn't wrong, so we have the President's attorney on tonight, Jay Sekulow. And he wants to talk about the case for the President there and on taxes. I'm surprised he wants to take us on about asking for the President's taxes. We'll do it now.

COOPER: All right. Chris, see you then in about 10 minutes from now.

Still to come, I'll talk to Beto O'Rourke about why he believes some Republicans may actually favor President Trump's impeachment. We'll be right back.

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[20:50:00]

COOPER: As we reported earlier tonight, Senator Rob Portman is speaking out against the President's effort to get Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. A few other Republicans, they were willing to even publicly criticize the President. We should point out Senator Portman did also say, "I don't view it as an impeachable offense. I think the House frankly rushed to impeachment assuming certain things" that haven't yet panned out.

For more on this issue and others, I'm joined by former Democratic Presidential Candidate, former Congressman Beto O'Rourke. Congressman O'Rourke, thanks for being with us.

There are few Republicans saying that the President shouldn't have asked a foreign power to investigate a political rival, not just Ukraine but China even. Do you think other Republicans will come forward or will they just continue to have radio silence?

BETO O'ROURKE (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do. And my faith is not so much in them, the members of Congress, the US senators from the Republican Party, but in their constituents. I think as Americans learn more of the facts come to grips with the truth. The fact that this President has committed crimes and sought to cover them up, sought to obstruct justice, and now commits them out in the open, hoping that by normalizing this we will lose attention or lose the pursuit of justice. Those constituents are going to force those Republican senators to stand you and do the right thing.

This is one of those moments that are going to reward the profiles and courage, putting country before party that we've seen before.

[20:55:05] I saw a great segment this weekend from Jake Tapper talking about Margaret Chase Smith in 1950, standing up to Eugene McCarthy. We know Barry Goldwater in 1974 sat down with Richard Nixon and urged him to resign. We need those closest to the President, in his own party, to do the right thing right now, not for him, not for their party, not for their careers before the country.

And I'm confident their constituents will force them to do that.

COOPER: That's interesting. I mean, Senator Blumenthal was on earlier. He said, this is sort of the same thing that essentially this is something that has to come from the bottom up, from constituents up. And once members of Congress realized their constituents are starting to move in that direction, they will as well.

O'ROURKE: That's right. And I can understand those Republican senators who get that the President's fury and vengeance knows no bounds, no limits and now we know no law. So they're afraid of him.

But I want them to be more afraid of their constituents, who will force this issue for their next reelection, for their careers and I hope for their conscience, forcing them to do the right thing while we can still do the right thing.

The evidence is absolutely clear at this point. All that is lacking is the political will. So when this comes to a vote for impeachment in the House and then moves to the Senate, it's at that moment that I hope that they rise to the challenge and hope to fulfill the promise of this country, and our constitution which envision the specific high crimes that the President has committed.

COOPER: Part of the President's pushback on turning over documents is that the House hasn't taken a full vote to authorize the impeachment inquiry, not required by law but it is a matter, I guess, of the optics. Would it be a smart move for Speaker Pelosi to hold that vote, to get everyone in the record to authorize the inquiry? Which then, I guess, gives the White House less of an argument to defy the subpoena or do you think they'd just come up with some other reason?

O'ROURKE: I think they would come up with another reason to continue to obstruct justice and defy a co-equal branch of government. But I don't think it would hurt to show the force of the full House to move forward with impeachment.

As you said, constitutionally it is not necessary, but I think that might be a demonstration on the public sentiments, the popular will, the political force that is amassing in this country right now, to force accountability and justice.

But regardless, I'm grateful for what Speaker Pelosi is doing, what Chairman Schiff and other leaders are doing to make sure this entire country is brought on to the same page. Only when we have all of the facts and truth, we will be able to move forward with accountability.

And when we do that, we preserve this democracy. If we instead set the precedent that this President is above the law, we will lose it forever, for every generation that follows are. So this will be decided right now at this moment, and I trust that the house is going to move forward deliberately, but with speed to make sure that we get a trial in the Senate as soon as possible.

COOPER: Over the weekend, you were asked about the appearance of Hunter Biden working on the board of that Ukrainian company, while his dad was vice president. You said if you were elected president, you would not allow a member of your family or cabinet to "work in a position like." You went on to point out that there's no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Bidens.

If you said that having a family member on a board like that is not something you would allow, is it then justified for voters to ask questions about the judgment of Vice President Biden in permitting his son to do that?

O'ROURKE: I stand by my statement on that, but I don't even want to give the appearance. I know you're not suggesting this, of some kind of equivalency between what the former vice president has done, which is not illegal and there's no wrongdoing that's been substantiated, and what the President has done and he's continuing to do, which is to break the laws of the United States, to commit these high crimes that were envisioned with impeachment was placed in the constitution as a safeguard against a lawless President like the one that we have now.

So, I want to make sure that the focus of the American people remains on this President, his crimes and the need to ensure that there's accountability at the end of the day. He will try to muddy the waters to deflect attention. He's been a master at that in the past. We've got to be disciplined and focused on what he has done and making sure that there are consequences.

COOPER: And just finally, as a Democratic presidential candidate, are you worried that this focus on impeachment is going to overshadow some of what you're able to talk about on the campaign trail?

O'ROURKE: I'm not worried at all and, in fact, I'm grateful that the House is moving forward. This is the true constitutional test of our time. And I want to make sure that we come through with flying colors. So I'm grateful for that.

But I also know from listening to people around the country that we can still work on guaranteed, high-quality universal care for all. We can address gun violence and follow lead Moms Demand and March For Our Lives, and have real gun laws in this country, and confront climate change before it is too late.

We are capable of this as Americans while still ensuring that we hold the President accountable.

COOPER: Beto O'Rourke, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.

I want to hand it over to Chris for "Cuomo Primetime."