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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
CDC Recommends Americans Wear Masks Voluntarily in Public; U.S. Reports 1,095 New Deaths Today, Most in One Day; Some Officials Say They Felt "Pressured" To Draft New Guidelines; Nearly 96% Of Americans Under Stay-At-Home Orders; 8 States Don't Have Statewide Orders; Controversy Over Religious Exemptions; At Least 14 States Exempting Religious Gathering From Stay At Home Orders; U.S. Reports 1,095 New Deaths Today, Most In One Day; White House Aide Peter Navarro On Medical Supplies; CDC Recommends "Cloth Face Coverings" In Public. Aired on 8-9p ET
Aired April 03, 2020 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:07]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.
The big news tonight is the CDC now recommends face coverings in public, though they do not want people wearing medical or surgical masks because those should be left for first responders. The president made this announcement this evening, and the very moment he made the announcement, he also undercut it by informing the world that he himself will not be following the CDC recommendation.
The president repeatedly pointed out that this recommendation is voluntary, but he added, I don't think I'm going to do it. He also said more definitively that he, quote, won't be doing it personally.
The other thing the president will not be doing is telling the remaining governors who have not issued statewide stay-at-home order to issue them. The president saying it's up to the governors and claiming that the states in question, quote, are not in jeopardy. That is not a comment based on science or reality.
Last night, Dr. Anthony Fauci appeared on the CNN global town hall and said all state should have stay-at-home orders in place. Bill Gates had said the same thing on our town hall a week ago. Alabama, and Missouri, are the latest to announce such orders, which is an about- face for Alabama, because just last week, that state's governor, Kay Ivey, dismissed the need for one saying, quote, we're not Louisiana, we're not a New York state, and we're not California.
Well, she's wrong. According to Johns Hopkins University data, the per capita rate of cases in Alabama is the same as it is in California. California's governor, though, announced their stay-in-place order more than two weeks before Governor Ivey did.
Currently, eight states don't have statewide orders -- Arkansas, Iowa, North Dakota, Nebraska, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah and Wyoming. Today, Illinois governor -- the Illinois governor was asked about the
difficulty getting supplies, and is answer can apply to much of what we heard from the White House today, quoting Governor J.B. Pritzker, there's no federal plan for this, so every state is on their own. As I've said, it's a Wild West of here.
According to Johns Hopkins University, there are now at least 273,997 cases of coronavirus in the U.S., and 7,078 people have died.
Joining me is CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who also host the "Coronavirus: Fact Versus Fiction" podcast, and CNN medical analyst, Dr. Celine Gounder, a clinical assistant professor at NYU Medical School.
So, Sanjay, let's talk about the CDC guidelines now on mask. A source telling CNN that the CDC felt pressure to draft the guidelines, and would not have made the recommendation if not for the White House. Clearly, the president has reiterated, repeatedly while announcing these, that they're voluntary and he's not going to do it.
Should people wear some sort of face covering?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a significant change. I mean, there's no question. And, you know, the CDC and the World Health Organization, up until yesterday -- and you and I talked to, you know, doctors from World Health Organization yesterday. We're not recommending people wear face masks in public.
But, you know, we started to hear quite a bit, as you know, from people, including from Dr. Fauci, that they were likely to lean into this because of the evidence that has been out there for some time that you can spread this virus even if you don't have symptoms, even if you're not coughing or sneezing. So the idea that these would not be the medical-grade face masks but, rather, some sort of cloth masks to basically protect others from you, I think is really where this -- where this came from.
But it is confusing, admittedly, Anderson. I mean, even among I think the coronavirus task force. Should you wear it? Should you not wear it?
I think the two big things it should not take away from hospital workers, and it should not replace social distancing. I mean, you shouldn't be going out in public anyway unless you absolutely have to.
COOPER: Dr. Gounder, I'm wondering what you make of it. You know, one of the things Governor Cuomo has said is, look, it probably can't do any harm, as long as it doesn't make you feel that suddenly you can go out and interact with people and not obey the six feet distance and all the other guidelines.
GUPTA: Right.
DR. CELINE GOUNDER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, I think an easy way to think about it, Anderson, is if you think about this is a hose that is spraying out something. And you put something here, which is essentially what you're doing with a cloth face mask on the source of infection. That actually works really well in terms of preventing spread to other people.
But when you talk about I am, then, going to wear that to protect myself out here, you know, that doesn't work so well. And so the -- the recommendation is really about preventing spread from you, who may not even realize you have infection, that you may be a carrier, to other people. So, it's to protect, you know, the lady at the checkout counter at the grocery store from you.
So I think it's really important for people to understand the reason this is being recommended is because only now are we fully realizing how many people may not know that they are carriers and may be spreading to others.
And it's not to make you feel guilty. Maybe you made somebody else sick. We didn't know. But now that we understand that, please, help us by protecting everybody else.
COOPER: Doctors, if you will just stay there.
[20:05:01]
I also want to bring in CNN's Jim Acosta.
Jim, also today, no -- still no national stay-at-home order from the president.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right.
COOPER: I was surprised to hear the president say that -- that the states that don't currently have them, that I -- I don't have the exact quote. But, essentially, they're not in jeopardy.
ACOSTA: Right. And I think the president has, essentially, been responding in this way all along. He said, once again this evening at the task force briefing, that he is going to leave it up to these individual governors to decide what they want to do.
And I talked to senior White House official about this earlier today. Why is the president reluctant to go out to the nation and say we want every state to issue stay-at-home orders? Or stay-at-home recommendations and this official said, well, our current guidelines are kind of implying that.
Well, it's just the not same thing and it's obviously not as far as where Dr. Fauci went with you and Sanjay last night where he said he thinks every state in the country should be doing this. This should be a nationwide thing, everybody pulling together.
And even when the president's been pressed what about this governor down in Florida? Or that governor in this other state and why aren't they doing this? Some of these states are now catching on and doing it themselves. The president has praised some of these governors who have not taken these kinds of steps.
And so, it's a real mixed message from the White House. One of several we're tracking.
COOPER: It's so interesting, Sanjay, because, you know, the president, yesterday, when they -- when they introduced the -- or maybe it was two days ago when they introduced the 100,000 to 240,000 likely deaths, with current social distancing efforts underway. The president seemed to sort of embrace those and believe those.
And, yet, he's not even willing to just publicly say I think all the governors should do this. Even if he's not ordering them to or telling them directly to, he just -- he says -- I mean, it's -- it's just contradictory, his logic on this.
GUPTA: He should -- he should directly tell them, too. I mean, it's quite striking to me -- I mean, I feel like there's been a slow roll through this entire process, despite the fact that data and -- and I know the -- the guidance public health officials have been giving him has been really clear. I mean, even before the 15-day pause, I think it was clear that, at the end of those 15 days, it would need to be extended.
And, even now, you know, they say it's until April 30th. But the very models, Anderson, that you're talking about actually are based on the idea that it would -- that the social distancing guidelines and the -- and the stay-at-home orders would last until the end of May.
So it's kind of -- it's really strange, I think, you know, to sort of look at this -- this -- this dance that's going on between science and policy. The science is there. Obviously, you have these renowned people, like Dr. Anthony Fauci, who know this. I'm not sure if this is to just not shock the country, and to sort of, you know, ease the country into it or what it is exactly.
But it is a bit bewildering. We know what needs to be done. It's going to happen. I'm pretty confident of it. Even if it's kicking and screaming, it's going to happen.
But why not just do it? I'm still not sure I fully understand that.
COOPER: Dr. Gounder, is there any -- does it make any scientific sense not to be telling South Carolina or Iowa that they should have these stay-at-home orders in place? I mean, is there any scientific validity to the president saying, well, those places aren't in jeopardy.
GOUNDER: Well, here's the thing. They're not in jeopardy, yet. And the longer they wait to implement these measures, the more in jeopardy they will be, because by the time you realize you have transmission locally, it's too late.
You know, and this is one thing I'm really very disappointed in my own city in New York City, we waited too long. And even just a couple days because the -- of the exponential rate of growth. Even a day or two can make a huge difference.
So I really hope and pray that, for the rest of the country that, they learn from our mistakes. They take these measures as soon as possible. COOPER: Yes. Sanjay, I mean, I don't understand any state that says
they're not in jeopardy. It's not as if testing is statewide, ubiquitous that, you know, there's tests after -- you know, on every street corner. I mean, they just don't know. People just don't know what the actual numbers of people who are infected are.
GUPTA: They don't know, for sure. And then what they would see, as Celine, I think was mentioning, is a picture sort of behind the curve, right? Because by the time someone actually gets tested, that's reflecting an exposure some time ago, it's not just affecting their state either if people start to become sick and you have outbreaks, it affects probably the entire region.
And then I think most importantly, Anderson, anybody who is following the story, we don't have enough of certain resources including ventilators. You know, Andrew Cuomo, the governor of New York, is saying, maybe we'll shift these things to hotspots that need them. Well, if we keep adding hotspots that need them, it's going to make the supply issue and the demand issue even more out of proportion to one another.
[05:10:05]
So, it's -- by doing this, they're not just affecting themselves. They're affecting the entire country, as we've talked about. How they behave affects the entire country. It affects you and me and everyone else. So they should do it.
And, really, they should just be told to do it at this point. I mean, we are running out of time. The models that you looked at that you have been citing, are predicated on the idea that by tonight, by the end of this week I think they said, every state would have a stay at home order. Doesn't look like that's going to happen and, you know, I think that means the models, the projections will be even worse as a result.
COOPER: Yes, Jim Acosta, we're now in a situation if -- I mean, again, the models that were presented at the White House, you know, based on all states doing this. If all states aren't doing this, those models could actually go up. That 100,000 to 240,000 could go up.
ACOSTA: That's exactly right, Anderson. And, you know, that has been the fear expressed by public health officials all along. We know Dr. Deborah Birx expressed this in the briefing yesterday. She said communities just aren't doing enough.
And so, you know, I think, just towards the end of that briefing, the president, Dr. Birx were pressed on whether or not they're still sticking with these models that were offered up earlier this week. And they were sort of hedging on that answer.
I think, as Sanjay was saying, we don't know what we don't know. And, you know, you would think, at this point, Anderson, the president would be humbled somewhat by being wrong so many times. I pressed him, you know, at one point, I said it's April. You said this was going to be over by April. And he says well it is going to be over. He's just not dealing with the reality of the fact that he's been
wrong, and the scientists and the health experts have been right. And he just can't grasp that reality.
COOPER: Jim, let's talk about the supply problem because, clearly, there is a supply chain issue here that's been longstanding now. The president blaming previous administrations for lack of supplies, and there's certainly blame to go around. There's an argument that after I think it was the swine flu, I think, 2009 or 2009 pandemic that they didn't restock some of the -- the stockpiles.
But that was, you know, ten years ago. This administration has had several years and warnings, we now know, about a pandemic just like this one to stock up and supply and -- and they haven't. What's the latest?
I mean -- I -- I have yet to see some sort of breakdown of, you know, there's a billion masks coming by this date. There is X number of ventilators that will be made by the end of this month and by the next month. And I -- I hear piecemeal things of, like, oh, we got all these things, you know, being made and a lot of folks working on it.
I have yet to see any kind of breakdown of what is actually coming down the pike and when.
ACOSTA: I think part of the reason why, Anderson, as you recall a couple weeks ago when therapy saying that they were saying there would be millions of test kits sent out by the end of this week or by the end of next week. And they just couldn't hit those benchmarks.
And so I think they're reluctant to do that. And one of the things we're saying -- and I brought this up at the briefing, and so did other reports -- is you know, why is it that the president is shifting the blame? Why is he blaming other states when he, also, had the opportunity to fill the national stockpile? To make sure that their shelves weren't, quote, empty.
And the president just doesn't have a good answer to that. He blames the Obama administration for it. And as I told him during the briefing today, Anderson, he's been president for three or four years.
He's had plenty of time to prepare. He put out this notion we couldn't have seen this coming. This was an unforeseen problem. That's just not the case. As our Andrew Kaczynski was reporting earlier today, Secretary Azar at HHS was talking about the -- the potential for a pandemic flu in April of last year. More than one year ago.
When I asked the president about that, he said, well, he was aware of the possibility of a pandemic as a concept. And he knows pandemics are a problem.
But, Anderson, the -- just the flat-out truth of the matter is this administration did not prepare when it had the chance.
COOPER: Yes. Jim Acosta, Sanjay, thank you. Dr. Celine Gounder, as well. Thanks very much. Joining me now is Dr. Jeremy Faust, instructor in emergency medicine
at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Foust is also an emergency medicine physician at Brigham Women's Hospital, where 154 employees have tested positive for COVID-19, 1,851 people have been tested out of 25,000 employees.
Doctor Faust, thank you for all you are doing and for being able to be here with us tonight. I know you are going straight from speaking with us to working an overnight shift at the hospital.
Just on a day-to-day level, what are you seeing that most concerns you right now?
DR. JEREMY FAUST, EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN, BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL: Thank you.
What I'm seeing right now is an increasing number of cases where, all over the country, we've seen cases kind of increase, increase. And then you wait for that sort of floodgate to open like what happened in New York, and that's what I'm worried could happen any moment. So, that's really what on our mind is, right now, we're able to take care of patients who come in here in Boston.
[20:15:04]
But are we about to be the next place where resources are stretched?
COOPER: And when you hear of physicians getting infected, even dying, what does that say to you? I mea, is it just inherent in dealing with this virus? Or is it just unsafe conditions because of a lack of proper equipment?
FAUST: Right. When we hear about our colleagues dying, that gives us tremendous pause, concern, and just sadness. We -- we never thought we would be in a situation where we would be unsafe. And when that happens, you have to question, are the doctors safe? Is there enough PPE?
Where I work right now, I feel safe. We are certainly rationing. I've never seen anything like that. We line up and we -- kind of like a bread line in every hospital and every -- say here's your mask. So I feel safe right now.
But the question is, does everyone feel safe? And the answer is no. And will we feel safe, you know, in a week or a month?
And what we're hearing is that the national strategic pipeline or stockpiles aren't really adequate, as you were talking about on your previous segment, isn't really adequate we think to keep up. And so, we need to really lean into the tools we have to get more PPE, so that I can continue to feel safe and do the job that I want to do, which is to help as many people as possible.
COOPER: You know, we have heard a lot about ventilators obviously and PPE. There is also a question of medication. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that because in order to have somebody on a ventilator, my understanding is they have to be, essentially, sedated for -- for the time that they're on. Are those supplies in danger, too?
FAUST: That's correct. Those supplies are in danger. We are hearing of shortages of those medications which would make it -- it would be another kind of capacity issue, in a sense.
Even if you had the ventilators, could you effectively use them? And we are very concerned that that is the next thing. In this whole crisis, one of the big criticisms has been could we have done more sooner? Could we have acted sooner?
I don't think it makes a lot of sense to look back and point fingers. I am -- as an ER doctor, I think a lot of people like I am in my field, we just look forward and say what can we do now?
So let's not make the same mistake twice. Let's get ahead of this. Let's find out where the pipeline issues are. Ask the suppliers to make this medication. And really dig deep to find out where the bottleneck is because, again, if we can't do that, then we can't even use the tools that we know how to use to save the most numbers lives.
COOPER: My mom died earlier this summer, and she had very clear instructions about not wanting to be on a ventilator. You know, she had very specific instructions that she had thought about of how she wanted her life to end.
And I bring that up because I know it's something that you think is important that people think about now, and make sure that their wishes are known with family members and also probably written down in some sort of healthcare directive or -- or, you know, DNR order.
Can you just talk a little bit about why that's so important? And I guess my question on the ventilators is, if you are put on a ventilator, what is the chance you will survive and recover after being on a ventilator?
FAUST: Very important questions, and I'm really glad you brought them up because I think everybody needs to have these conversations at all times. Not even in a time of crisis.
And we know that, too often, even in regular medicine, people come into the hospital and they have made very explicit wishes such -- like your mother did. And we don't know about them or we -- we don't think they're up to date. And patients get care that they never wanted. And that can be very burdensome. They get -- they end up on machines where they wanted to have a natural life.
And, in this moment, we have to have these conversations, as difficult as they are. We don't want to convince anyone of what to do. We just want to honor their wishes. That's what, as physicians, we do.
And by doing that, we decrease suffering and we also keep these things available. These equipment and other capacity issues available so that we can do the best for every single person. To answer your specific question, I don't think we know what the rates
of recovery are. And what I would say is, in general, it just depends on more -- it kind of depends on more -- less of the condition you have and more who you were before. So, you could have a life threatening illness and be a very young, healthy person and recover. Or you could have what seems to be a mild condition, and be older and frail with many conditions and you don't do well.
We are hearing some good news that people, even across the age spectrum, can come off ventilators. But the rates aren't high enough that would make me comfortable. But there is some glimmer of hope there. But the more important thing is that we know people's wishes.
COOPER: I ask that question because I think in people's consideration, you know, I'll just speak for myself personally. I think if I'm on a ventilator for X number of days or two weeks and I'm sedated, I'll recover. Then, OK, then that's -- I have a good shot. If I am going to be on a ventilator and there's little likelihood I will ever get off it, then I might have other decisions.
FAUST: That's right. And those are the calculations that people have to make with their doctors and their family and their friends, based really on everyone's individual situations, profiles.
[20:20:02]
COOPER: Yes.
FAUST: Yours is different than mine. But those are the right questions to be acting and we certainly can't do it later, in the heat of the moment, and especially, when we're not able to have visitors in the hospital. So we need to have these conversations ahead of time so that we actually do the right thing.
COOPER: So people need, what, a healthcare directive? A DNR? Yes, a DNR?
FAUST: Well, DNRs are very specific. Has to do with whether or not you would want to receive certain kinds of critical care, like chest compressions if your heart were to stop. There is sort of -- there is a wide spectrum of things you can do.
And so, there are forms online and every state has different things. And so, you can sort of talk to your doctor and your family about what you might want. So, there's just so many different things but I think the point you're bringing up is let's talk about these complexities so that everyone gets what they want.
COOPER: And make it known to the medical personnel working on you.
FAUST: Exactly.
COOPER: Dr. Faust, I really appreciate what you do and I can't believer you're going on a shift right now. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
FAUST: Happy to do it.
COOPER: Yes.
Interesting thing happened overnight. After the president's son-in-law Jared Kushner suggested the strategic national stockpile of emergency medical supplies was for federal government use, that it's the government's supply, seems the definition of the stockpile was changed, overnight. We'll tell you what happened.
Later, I'll talk with Peter Navarro, assistant to President Trump about the pandemic response efforts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:25:03]
COOPER: The Trump administration's facing some new questions tonight after comments by the president's son-in-law, who serves as one of the senior advisers.
Yesterday, Jared Kushner appeared at the White House coronavirus briefing and seemed to redefine how the strategic national stockpile was meant to be used.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT: The notion of the federal stockpile was it's supposed to be our stockpile. It's not supposed to be state's stockpiles that they use.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's actually the strategic national stockpile, not the federal stockpile. Reporters checked, and that didn't match what said on the HHS website. On its website, it said, in part, quote, when state, local, tribal and territorial responders request federal assistance to support their response efforts, the stockpile ensures that the right medicines and supplies get to those who need them and most during an emergency.
Well, take a look at this. Overnight, after Kushner's remarks, the website was changed. Changed, it certainly appears, to what Jared Kushner said at the podium. Here's the new language: The strategic national stockpile role is to supplement supplies during public emergencies. Many states have stockpiles as well, supplies, medicines, and devices for life-saving care contained in the stockpile can be used as a short-term stopgap buffer when the immediate supply of adequate amounts of these materials may not be immediately available.
Some perspective on all this now from Maggie Haberman, CNN political analyst and "New York Times" White House reporter, and CNN national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem.
So, Maggie, the president was asked about Jared Kushner and the national stockpile a short while ago. He said it was a gotcha question. What do you make of this change and Kushner's role? MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, I think federal
officials are saying this change was in the works before Jared Kushner said this. But it's quite the coincidental timing, if that was the case. And, Anderson, Jared Kushner has put himself flush in the middle of the -- the discussion about and the efforts to procure equipment and the efforts to send equipment to the states.
Why he has chosen to do this is a bit of a mystery to a number of people because, while I think that he thinks he is helping, there are some officials that think this is just added another layer of intention and -- and confusion, they say.
In terms of what Jared Kushner said yesterday, this is not, as you say, the federal stockpile. The stockpile exists so that it can buffer the states and help the states. It is -- we are in an unprecedented situation where a number of states, more than the federal government is used to, need help at once. And that's a separate issue.
But it's not the federal government stockpile for the federal government's use, specifically for the federal government. This was just a manufactured description.
And it's a reminder, Anderson, that this White House has a tendency to act as if no government has ever faced anything before. It's never faced criticism. It's never faced any kind of national emergency. It's never faced a crisis.
This is a broad scope of an emergency. But governments have faced emergencies before, and there are playbooks and this White House has decided, over and over again, not to use them.
COOPER: Juliette, I'm wondering, given your experience in Homeland Security, what you make of -- of the way this -- Jared Kushner is defining it and the use, thus far, of the national stockpile?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, Maggie's exactly right. The virus may be new. But disaster management is not. There are processes in place for two reasons that take it out of -- out of sort of who has Jared Kushner's phone number, right? Remember, yesterday, he's at the podium and he is saying proudly that a friend of a friend called him to get more masks and he got them to the hospital.
Those of us in disaster management are hearing that and, literally, we go pale because that's exactly how it's not supposed to work. The reason why you want an objective entity, say FEMA or the stockpile -- or the national stockpile is because given the extent of this disaster, the needs, all of the requirements, moving from point A to point B and maybe to point C depending on how this thing unfolds.
We need strong situational awareness. We need a strong center that actually knows what the needs are, across the 50 states, and who needs what, when. That can't be at the whim of whether you're friends with Jared Kushner.
And so just like Maggie was describing, it's -- it's -- it's not like a, you know, he's just in there and it's no big deal. It's actually incredibly disruptive because you want to be able to move stuff as quickly as possible because, one, certain states need it first. But, two, then you're going to know what you run out of. That's the problem.
We have no idea because the White House has decided, and Jared Kushner has decided, to be operational. That's like the last place that you want -- where you want operational decisions being made.
COOPER: Maggie Haberman, I mean, do you sense much what is happening behind the scenes at the White House? I mean, how fully on board is the president to -- I mean, he seemed to, you know, accept the 100,000 to 240,000 figure and promote that and that chart.
[20:30:00]
But, at the same time, not asking or at least even publicly suggesting that governors should have -- that there should be nationwide stay-at- home orders. It does raise the question of, does he really believe what the what the scientific experts on his, on his taskforce are saying?
HABERMAN: OK, Anderson, I think that you have seen the President take a day to day approach with this as he has with almost everything else about his presidency. He says something one day he says something somewhat different the next day.
I do think what he said earlier this week in terms of talking about the magnitude of this virus, I don't think that should be diminished. I think that was important. I think it was important because there are a lot of people in the country who won't believe this unless they hear it from him, because they only believe what he says and because he has suggested that they can't trust what folks like us say. And so they needed to hear that this is serious and not some effort to damage him.
But I do think that he has been at various points at odds with the health experts. We keep hearing repeatedly that he is listening to them and on some things (INAUDIBLE) but it's but I also think that he would like there was a quick cure. I think he likes to talk in sort of projecting optimism tones. And he has said this, that he has been talking more, you know, aggressively about the idea that there could be therapies that would work, even if they're untested, because he thinks that that would sound good and give people hope.
That is a times at odds with what the health experts say we saw it acutely yesterday with Deborah Birx. And so I just think this is going to be an ongoing point of tension for the next few weeks.
COOPER: Maggie Haberman, Juliette Kayyem, thanks very much.
This Sunday in a number of states, people will likely head to religious services because exemptions in their states stay at home orders. This obviously goes against the advice of scientists and medical professionals.
Our Gary Tuchman talks to one congregation to find out their thoughts about it. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:36:14]
COOPER: Earlier we reported the President Trump says he'll leave the issue of stay at home orders to the governors, eight states have not issued statewide orders. But of those who have at least 14 have carved out exemptions for houses of worship. Once at state Ohio, the last hour Ohio Governor Mike DeWine appeared on CNN had this to say about the faithful in his state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): Our churches 99.9% of our churches are closed in Ohio, I would say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, not although yesterday evening Gary Tuchman visited one such congregation in Ohio defying the state home order, despite the overwhelming medical evidence of just how dangerous it can be.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Driving out of this Ohio parking lot is a woman who just attended a church service with dozens of other people, including children.
(on-camera): Can I ask you about your decision to go to church to be inside that building?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn't be anywhere else.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): Aren't you concerned you could infect other people if you get sick inside?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): People don't go to this place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I'm covered in Jesus' blood. I'm covered in Jesus' blood.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): But other people who don't go to this church who you might encounter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of these people go to this church.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): No, but you're going to be in places where other people go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I go to the grocery store every day. I'm in Walmart, Home Depot, all them
TUCHMAN (on-camera): But you could get them sick from what happens in the church.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They could get me sick, but they're not because I'm covered in his blood. Thank you very much.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): 90 minutes earlier, we watched as people arrived at this evangelical congregation, the Solid Rock Church in Cincinnati. This couple about to walk in with a toddler and a baby. And then there is this woman and man arriving, the woman hugs the man, that same man hugs a woman inside. The arriving woman hugs the man inside, and then she hugs a woman.
Church leaders would not talk to us on camera. But I've posted this statement which implicitly refers to the pandemic and adds, for that reason, we believe that the doors of Solid Rock Church should remain open.
(on-camera): The church says it practices social distancing inside. But the pastor's would not allow us in so we have no way of confirming that. Either way, it doesn't address the potential dangers of large gatherings.
What if one person is infected? You're all in that building together to large family?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am absolutely not concerned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The blood of Jesus cures every disease. Psalms 91 read it.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): But you can get somebody else sick, if you get sick inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, what have you got it, you can get me sick?
TUCHMAN (on-camera): What if you get other sick that who don't go to this church?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have and there's not one person sick.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): How do you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I know I'm the pastor.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): But all I know --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I would hear about it, if somebody was sick.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): Well you could be asymptomatic sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You better not print no fake news about me or you'll hear from me.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): What we heard were a lot of people who made up their minds. This man though, sounds a bit different.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see both sides of the story.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): You do see both sides though.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh yes. I see both sides.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): But why not just pray on the internet, pray with your family right now to keep people (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's called, it's called values and liberty. You have the choice as an American.
TUCHMAN (on-camera): But if you're infected, sir, and you go into the grocery store and you run into someone to get them in fact (INAUDIBLE) --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not -- why not flip it the other way?
TUCHMAN (on-camera): That could happen too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know?
TUCHMAN (on-camera): But you're increasing your chance of getting sick, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could be.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Gary joins us now. Are there congregants at all you talked to, or I guess weren't there who aren't happy that the church is staying open?
TUCHMAN: Yes. There's a number of congregants who are not happy that this church has stayed open. We talked to two of them yesterday. They love this church, but they are not going inside the church. They think it's a bad decision to leave the church open. But they did not want to talk on camera. They did not want to give their names because they don't want to ostracize themselves from their friends in the church.
COOPER: Yes.
TUCHMAN: We did talk to one lady who was in the church about how crowded the church was Anderson. She told us it's much emptier than it was a few weeks ago. Nevertheless, we saw between 70 and 75 people walk in the church, and there may have been more that we didn't see. Anderson?
[20:40:10]
COOPER: Do you know if they have a video hookup so congregations can worship at home and attend services online?
TUCHMAN: Yes, so traditionally, they do have it hooked up. You just see the preacher though you don't see the people in the crowd. So yes, you can pray that way. And a lot of people do pray that way.
COOPER: Right.
TUCHMAN: But as far as only praying that way, they're staying open for now.
COOPER: All right, Gary Tuchman. Thanks.
Joining me now is Reverend James Martin, a Jesuit priest, editor at large for American Magazine.
Father Martin, thanks for being with us. I hope you are doing OK. I think most of us and certainly understand the deep importance of faith and communion in people's lives. I'm wondering what do you think, though, when you hear, you know, people sort of portray this as an attack on believers' values or liberty.
REV. JAMES MARTIN, JESUIT PRIEST: It's not it's a false distinction between faith and science and there seems to be this strange of anti- government, anti-science, and a little bit of pride that runs to these people as if they're not going to get sick. I think that's also pretty selfish, as you reported was, was implying, because they could have no symptoms. And in fact, other people and you know, you heard them say they don't care. So it's pretty selfish though.
COOPER: To those who say, you know, God will protect us from this, we won't get sick because we, you know, we believe what we believe. Obviously you're a person of strong faith. What do you -- how do you address that?
MARTIN: We have to ask these people. What about everybody else who gets sick? Does that mean that every single person who has gotten infected and it was died as a sinner, and that they're somehow sinless? It's a very strange idea of God. If God is punishing sinful people with illness, which we know that's false, I mean, even Jesus rejects that in the Gospels. So it's a really monstrous image of God. I think that they're portraying unwittingly.
COOPER: What do you just in a larger sense, I mean, there's so many people who feel so alone right now and so scared. What do you -- what is your message to people?
MARTIN: Well, I'd like to remind them that God is with them through the love and care of their friends and family. But also, if you're listening to kind of those impulses within you that the impulse to panic and fear and terror and despair is not coming from God and the impulse to hope and confidence and peace is coming from God. So to try to listen to those impulses and try not to listen to people who tell you to despair or panic.
COOPER: And I mean, it is one of the things that that's so difficult I think about this whole social distancing thing is it just adds to the feelings of loneliness, it adds, you know, you in another time you would be able to attend a service or, you know, even just meet with your friends to kind of discuss what you're going through.
MARTIN: Yes, it's understandable that people feel a lack in their lives because of a lack of church and religious services. But Pope Francis today in a video message to people said, you know, there are creative ways for us to love one another, you know, through social media calling people. So it's not as if there's nothing, it's just -- it's kind of less than it was before. But there's still opportunities to love and care for other people.
COOPER: You tweeted something saying that the next time any of these groups call themselves pro life, we need to remind ourselves about these death dealing decisions. Those are pretty tough words.
MARTIN: Well, I mean, I think it's a pretty immoral thing that they're doing. They're putting people at risk for infection and death. And, you know, for a lot of these groups that say that they value life over all things. I mean, I'm pro life myself. These actions seem to indicate otherwise.
COOPER: So you think it's actually immoral to, to attend a service with lots of people around you?
MARTIN: Yes, I don't know if I go that far. I would just say it's unnecessarily dangerous. It puts people at risk. And I would say, you know, listen to the public health officials. I mean, you know, the reporter who asked the woman, you know, what, if you were asymptomatic. And she basically said I don't care. I mean, I think that's immoral. I mean, I think that attitude it's all about me is, you know, kind of the definition of selfishness.
MARTIN: We're one week away from Good Friday, obviously, the Vatican churches worldwide have been affected by this. What I mean, just -- can you just talk a little bit more about what do you think people faith can be doing that doesn't put other people at risk?
MARTIN: Well, I think reaching out to people through phone or through social media, I think, you know, kind of having packages delivered, I think certainly supporting our healthcare workers and, and people are on their front lines is very important. But, you know, Anderson, I mean, there's, there's very little we can do. There's less that we can do while we're not with one another. But we can always help one another in our own ways. And I think in our own situations, I think there's always an act of love that you can do, even if it's a small act of love.
COOPER: Father Martin, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
MARTIN: My pleasure.
COOPER: Up next, we'll go to the White House for discussion with presidential advisor Peter Navarro without medical supplies chain issues. We'll be right back.
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[20:48:43]
COOPER: Dr. Anthony Fauci is making no bones about his preference for what should happen nationally because of the coronavirus pandemic. I spoke to him last night on CNN's Global Townhall. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY FAUCI, AMERICAN PHYSICIAN: If you look at what's going on in this country, I just don't understand why we're not doing that. We really should be,
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He's talking about a statewide -- nationwide effort to get people to stay at home in from every state there about eight states now who still aren't doing that.
Joining me now is assistant to the President Peter Navarro is the National Defense Production Policy Act Coordinator.
Peter, thanks for joining us. I know how busy you are.
PETER NAVARRO, COORDINATOR, NATIONAL DEFENSE PRODUCTION POLICY ACT: Good evening Anderson.
COOPER: There's a lot I'd like to talk to you about -- I do you you'd mentioned just when I talked to you during the commercial about something new that you're trying to go after, people who are trying to profit off, you know, PPE equipment, because I mean, you go on the internet, there's prices out there, which are just outrageous for these kind of things.
NAVARRO: Yes, Anderson, and we've had a two pronged approach on that. A couple days ago, the President signed the Defense Production Act Order, which allows us to go after hoarders, who are having things in warehouses sitting on driving the price up and depriving Americans from what they need. And we've already through AG Barr had one bus In New York in New Jersey, we grabbed 80,000 masks.
[20:50:04]
And the beauty of that action Anderson was that we were immediately to take that PPE and get it right to the people in New York, in New Jersey who needed it tonight.
Breaking News, the President just signed another Defense Production Act Order and it's going to be able to crack down on two types of black market profiteering. One is we've got the edges in these markets, these secondary markets, these brokers bidding up the price of gloves, masks, things like that.
And then what they're doing is selling it abroad, exporting it and that does two things it drives price up but it deprives our people of that PPE that we desperately need.
COOPER: Right.
NAVARRO: And then a bigger problem and these distributors who are supposed to be sending that the hospitals and the local communities and instead of doing that fulfilling kind contracts, they're sending it abroad. So as we speak, Customs and Border Protection, working with U.S. Postal Service in the express mail consigners are going to start grabbing that stuff in real time, and making sure that it goes to the American people at the front line. So this is a tough order.
And what I've tried to do, Anderson, this Is War, the President's a commander in chief, as wartime President, I'm a soldier in that war. And my mission is to make sure the supply chain of America for all this PPE and medicines works, so that we get it to the frontlines in real time. And that's what I'm focused on.
COOPER: Yes. Let me ask you that because, you know, Governor Cuomo, a lot of governors out there have been saying, look, this system seems ridiculous that the states are now bidding against each other, driving up the price, sometimes (INAUDIBLE) coming in bidding against the States. The President was asked about it the other day, he said, look, that shouldn't be happening. They should call the White House and then we'll distribute it.
But clearly, there is a big problem here and the governors are complaining about it. Is there a -- shouldn't there be a better system? I mean, does it doesn't work to have all these states competing against each other does it?
NAVARRO: As we speak, we're putting in place a better system in real time. And it's working quite well.
COOPER: But what's the system?
NAVARRO: The ways to begin to think about this, if I may Anderson, is that all 50 states want PPE, they want the ventilators and they deserve to get them. But the problem is, we have what's called a rolling Apex. In other words, New York going to hit his peak first, then we're going to have Detroit, New Orleans hitting their peak.
COOPER: Right.
NAVARRO: And so what the system we have now it's consolidating, working with the state and local governments is to surge, what we need to where we need it now. And I -- we have Admiral Polaski (ph), we have Jared Kushner working on that closely with Vice President Mike Pence. I met with all of them and Deborah Birx in the Vice President's office today.
And we have a system in place, which we believe is going to serve the best needs of the communities in real time as we move through these rolling Apexes.
COOPER: It does. --
NAVARRO: And so -- go ahead.
COOPER: It does seem like though, that there's been, you know, a difference in philosophy that clearly this White House, you know, had the President has said repeatedly that, you know, this is not really the role of the federal government, that it's the state's job that governors are supposed to do this. And even telling governors that they need to issue state home orders.
You know, I know that's not your purview, but just scientifically it doesn't make any sense that we have states that are or not having stay at home orders. I mean, Dr. Fauci, Bill Gates, Dr. Birx, they all say that the President seems on board with the idea but isn't willing to just say, you know, governor should do that?
NAVARRO: Sure. So your right that's not my lane and I'm going to stay away from it. But to your other point about the organization of the supply chain, how we get product to the states, President Trump has been absolutely correct. That leading up to this crisis state and local governments over many, many years did not adequately prepare for this crisis. And the way this is --
COOPER: Right.
NAVARRO: -- the same can be said is supposed to be work.
COOPER: But the same --
NAVARRO: Hang on --
COOPER: -- can be said by the Trump administration.
NAVARRO: -- let me say this, it's suppose to be from the federal government, to the states with local implementation. But I think what's important now, Anderson, is --
COOPER: But let me just stop there because the President saying two things, he's on -- the one hand, saying this is something nobody could have ever predicted, which he has said repeatedly. And on the same time, he's saying states should have predicted and been prepared. The same argument you just made could be made for the White House that if the shelves are empty in the National Stockpile, isn't that the Trump administration's fault since they've been there for three years and known about the pandemic.
NAVARRO: So those statement aren't inconsistent because the plans that the state's local communities were supposed to have in place. We're not for this 500 year flood. It was simply for crisis management and emergency management.
[20:55:00]
So -- the point here I think what's really, but as it would be helpful for me, Anderson, is it when we stray a little bit from fact into like a little hyperbole and then that stirs folks up and then increases all this demand across if history states worry about enough ventilators and things like that, what I can assure the American people right now is we have a very solid system in place. We're deploying what we need to where we needed in real time. And it's a race against time.
If people are able to mitigate and social distance and flatten that curve. We're going to have enough for what we need based on the inventories I'm seeing in the rates of infection, but it's going to be tough. This is war, Anderson, and -- COOPER: Right.
NAVARRO: -- people are dying, and no one's more aware of that than the President, myself and the rest of the team here.
COOPER: So times, though. I mean, the President did today say that in the states where there's not stay at home orders in place. He said those states are not in jeopardy. Which is just scientifically -- I mean again it's not your purview, but it is a scientifically not --
NAVARRO: Wait -- you had Dr. Fauci on last night maybe I'll have Deborah Birx on Monday night. When I'm focused on like a laser beam Anderson and this is so important for the American people is to make sure they have the gloves, the mass, the goggles, the bronco dilators, if they're on ventilators and the ventilators themselves, and we're working, we're working in lightning speed on this. I mean, I spent all last weekend with a FEMA and HHS team, making sure that we set up a plan which will deliver over 100,000 ventilators by yes, by the end of June.
And let me say one other thing using this DPA, I had a wonderful conversation with Mary Barra, the CEO of GM and now I was so pleased to hear from her that they're going to be getting rolling ventilators off that factory in Kokomo, Indiana within a matter of weeks. And so they're -- they've answered the call. They're also working with other ventilator manufacturers to get to the component parts. I got Phoebe Novakovic, a General Dynamics, basically helping us with using their 3D printing capabilities to fill gaps in the supply chain.
So I want to assure the American people that, that we have the full force of the government and the full power of private enterprise working together with patriotic pride, to help the American people meet this challenge.
COOPER: Let me just ask Peter, is there any way -- it's hard for citizens to really get a sense of what is, you know what supplies are coming? Because, you know, we hear all the stuff you just said, sounds great. And we hear, OK, this factory is doing this. Is there any way to inform the American public, you know, that, OK, in the next week, a 200, you know, 2 million, you know, face masks are going to be available on this day. I mean, is there a schedule that you can show the American people because that would give some confidence. I think.
NAVARRO: Yes, it's a great, great suggestion. And interesting enough, we were talking about that and Vice Presidents office just this afternoon about actually having some type of crawl where all the things that are going in it's massive amounts of material that it's getting to all the 50 states. And to the extent that we can get that information out more, I think that would be very useful to the American people.
So let me let me put that on the on the plate of everybody. And let's see if we can do that for you, Anderson.
COOPER: Well, Peter Navarro, I appreciate your efforts. And I appreciate you talking to us. NAVARRO: Thanks. Thanks for the time tonight to speak the American people.
COOPER: All right. Take care.
A lot more in this health crisis. Ahead we'll be checking with Chris Cuomo to see how he's doing with the coronavirus diagnosis that he's going through. We'll be right back.
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