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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Trump Says of Reports He Insulted U.S. War Dead: "Just Like So Many Other Things, It's a Hoax"; Trumps Says We're "Rounding The Corner" (GRIM Forecast Says No); New Coronavirus Model Predicts More Than 410,000 Deaths By Jan; CNN Poll: Views On Racism, Protests Grow More Partisan This Summer; AG Barr: "I Don't Think There Are Two Justice Systems"; Breonna Taylor's Mother Searches For Justice. Aired on 8-9p ET

Aired September 04, 2020 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:07]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Good evening to you. Jim Sciutto here, sitting in for Anderson.

And tonight, the president of the United States, as he insists, he would never attack an honored member of our military attacks an honored member of our military, a dedicated former marine general, who is also a Gold Star father. That is he lost his son in combat.

Let's begin with what Trump is reported by several outlets now to have said about the young men and women who served this country and sometimes die defending it. He's reported to have called them suckers and losers. Suckers for serving, losers for dying.

This evening, Mr. Trump answered questions about the reporting on this, first reported by Jeffrey Goldberg in "The Atlantic" and later by other outlets including, notably, Fox News.

This is from Goldberg's account of the president's cancelled 2018 visit to a French cemetery where hundreds of marines killed in the first world war are now buried, a revered place for U.S. marines.

He writes quote: Trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain and because he did not believe important to honor American war dead, according to four people, Goldberg says, with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. Goldberg for "The Atlantic" continues quote, in a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said why should I go to the cemetery? It's filled with losers.

In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as suckers for getting killed. Goldberg also recounts the visit he made on Memorial Day, three days ago, to Arlington National Cemetery with then DHS secretary and retired general, John Kelly, who I mentioned earlier and as I said, General Kelly's son Robert is buried there.

Reading again from Goldberg's account, quote: Trump while standing by Robert Kelly's grave turned directly to his father and said, "I don't get it. What was in it for them?"

Goldberg also reported citing three sources that when Senator John McCain died, he said quote, we're not going to support that loser's funeral. The president last night tweeted that he never called the late senator a loser.

Really? Keeping them honest, watch the tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, THEN-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I supported him. He lost. He let us down. But he lost. So I never liked him as much after that because I don't like losers but, Frank, Frank, let me get to it. He hit me -- he's not a war hero.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a war hero. Five and a half years --

TRUMP: He is a war hero -- he's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: It was five years in a Vietnamese prison and he let others be released before him, though he was offered the chance. That's John McCain. Those are the president's words, though, not a war hero, a loser. Again, he denied it last night. Today he did not.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I say what I say and I never got along with John McCain. I disagreed with John McCain. You know that better than anybody frankly. I wasn't a fan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: As for John Kelly, well, as he denied allegations that he showed contempt for the troops, the president took an opportunity to show quite publicly and for the cameras deliberate contempt for Kelly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: He didn't do a good job, had no temperament and ultimately, he was petered out. He got -- he was exhausted. This man was totally exhausted. He wasn't even able to function in the last number of months. He was not able to function.

He was sort of a tough guy. By the time he got eaten up in this world, it's a different world than he was used to, he was unable to function.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: As for the "Atlantic" story itself, the president called it a hoax. He called the "Atlantic" a second rate magazine and a third rate magazine and took verbal swipes at Joe Biden himself the father of a son who served or as the president apparently would put it, father of a sucker. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: If it's true, based on all the things he said, I believe the article is true, I'd ask you all the rhetorical question, how do you feel? How would you feel if you had a kid in Afghanistan right now?

How would you feel if you lost a son, daughter, husband, wife? How would you feel, for real?

I probably -- I've just never been as disappointed in my whole career with a leader that I've worked with, president or otherwise. And if the article is true and appears to be based on other things he said, it is absolutely damnable.

[20:05:03]

It is a disgrace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN's Kaitlan Collins is at the White House now with more.

And, Kaitlan, you've seen it. I've seen it. This White House denied a host of stories that have proven to be true.

Tell us how the White House is handling this controversy and how the president himself is handling it.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we saw yesterday is just how angry the president was over this, that you've never really seen the White House mobilize that quickly to deny a story in the fashion that we have seen play out over the last 24 hours, where they had gotten current and former officials to come forward and dispute the story, even culminating with the first lady weighing in just a few moments ago, saying she believed this story was activism, not journalism, in a tweet she posted to her account.

And so, you can see really the effort that they're putting behind this to deny it. But, of course, what is notable when you look at that, Jim, is that the people who couldn't deny it who are pretty credible when it comes to president in the military have not said anything and John Kelly is one of those. The former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, Joe Dunford, there are several notable figures who have been silent over the last 24 hours and I think that could really do a lot to change the trajectory of this story.

SCIUTTO: You covered this White House while John Kelly was serving as chief of staff. I see the kind of person who at this point might take this moment to challenge the president here.

COLLINS: That's a big question that a lot of people are wondering. I don't think the president did himself a service in the briefing earlier to keep John Kelly from coming forward and confirming the detail it is of the story if he could. Of course, he hasn't weighed in either way so we're not sure what he would say. But interesting, you know, you saw the president going after him and

the president and John Kelly certainly had their bad moments when he was chief of staff. We reported at one point right before John Kelly was removed as chief of staff they were not even on speaking terms.

But the way the president spoke about him earlier basically saying he was incompetent and couldn't live to the pressure of the West Wing is notable when you consider what John Kelly has done. He is a retired four-star marine general. He led SouthCom. He has a son who has you noted died in Afghanistan.

He's been through a lot is my point. So, the way the president spoke about him, it is kind of hard to see how that would not garner a response from John Kelly.

SCIUTTO: We'll be watching. Kaitlan Collins, thanks very much.

Joining us, retired Army Major General Paul Eaton, whose video denouncing the president, posted shortly after the story broke has more than 3 million views and counting. On Twitter, we should point out he's a member of the liberal-learning group Vote Vets and said he's voting for Joe Biden.

Also with us tonight, Alex Horton, who reported and added to the story in 'The Washington Post" and served himself in Iraq as an infantryman.

Thanks to both of you.

General Eaton, I just want to ask you, military services are generational service in your family. You've read this story but also seen the president's comments about the military and other veterans through the year -- John McCain among them but not isolated to John McCain.

In your view and your experience, are these comments in character for this president in terms of how he views the military?

MAJ. GENERAL PAUL EATON (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Jim, Alex, great to be with you. Thank you very much.

We've had a steady diet of almost four years of disrespect to everybody in thought, word and deed. This president doesn't understand the nature of respect. He's a transactional guy and I'll do this for that.

And we -- you cannot lead if you do not inside bear a complete respect for your subordinates, for your superiors and for your peers left a right. We're done here. This guy has to go.

SCIUTTO: Alex, you not only confirm many details from "The Atlantic's" story but also able to add to it, get more information about what the president had said. Tell us what other details you uncovered.

ALEX HORTON, REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: Yes. Thanks for having me, Jim. There are a few more details we're able to confirm that were in line with what "The Atlantic" reported. One of which was the president was sort of baffled and confused that so much effort is put into finding POWs and soldiers who are missing in action. Of course, that is a better lack of the military principle of leaving behind. So, that was one of them where he considered them, you know, someone who messed up on the job or got into it on their own mistakes and therefore why put in that much effort.

And, you know, one of the other things that we learned that he found rank to be impressive among the generals and the staff in his cabinet but he was kind of curious why they chose that line of work, if they were smart and bright and worked together as a team, why didn't they go into business and make a lot of money? That's a few of the things that were sort of in line with what Jeffrey Goldberg said before.

[20:10:00]

SCIUTTO: Listen, the comments about dismissing folks who may be shot down in combat are similar to his publicly expressed views about John McCain saying he's a war hero because he got captured. Again, the president's view.

General Eaton, you maintained close ties I'm sure with many of your former and current, I'm sure, service members. I'm not asking you to be a pollster here. I'm asking if in your experience, the views of this president have changed over four years because it's traditionally viewed as a base of support for him, right, the U.S. military.

Have you sensed a change in the in the view of this president among service members?

EATON: Jim, just before I get to that, I'd like to point out my own father was missing in action and in Joint Task Force Full Accounting was the agency that did not leave my father behind. This is a great country for that it is a great country that delivers young men and women who actually will trust the chain of command because they know that they're not going to be left behind.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

EATON: Now, to the -- to the developing stories that we've got right now, "Military Times" did a survey that found over 60 percent of the officer core is -- has shifted and is now in the camp to vote for Vice President Biden. So the shift is in place. It's moving quickly and the story that we're talking about right now is playing very badly in my peer group.

SCIUTTO: Uh-huh.

Alex, many of President Trump's lawyers said they defended the president saying this didn't happen. We haven't heard from John Kelly. I wonder, listen, you and I have done stories on sensitive information where folks will share that information based on you maintaining us, maintaining their anonymity.

Here, with John Kelly, him being attacked today, do you see someone like him coming out and saying, no, this is what happened? HORTON: You know, it's certainly possible. I think one thing we

learned about the Trump administration and the people in it is the senior administration officials, a lot of people are willing to air grievances and frustrations but they're not willing to go on the record because they either, you know, why continue to work in the administration or have another job. Particularly around, you know, career military folks, this is something about honor, integrity, not sticking your neck out too much, I think a lot of generals like John Kelly and John Mattis, they hold on to sometimes perhaps to the public's detriment of, you know, full understanding someone like the president in an election year.

So, there's not really (INAUDIBLE). I mean, his comments about Kelly today, you know, were surprising and were quite shocking but, you know, John Kelly really hasn't come out full force yet and others haven't either, at least with their names.

SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, we've seen some hesitate and then eventually criticize the president. Jim Mattis among them. It took time.

General Eaton, I want to ask about another topic because this caught our attention. President Trump was asked a simple question about something that America's allies, closest allies have blamed Russia for, the poisoning of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny. The simple would not utter the simple words "this is bad" and "Russia shouldn't have done it," or "I will warn them away".

Listen to how he answered and I want to get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It is interesting that everybody is always mentioning Russia and I don't mind you mentioning Russia, but I think probably China at this point is a -- is a nation that you should be talking about much more so than Russia because the things that China is doing are far worse if you take a look at what is happening with the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Repeatedly, he will not call out Russia on this, on election interference, on bounties on U.S. forces in Afghanistan, on dangerous encounters between Russian aircraft and U.S. aircraft, all things increasingly aggressive, not less aggressive.

What do you make of his refusing to be critical of Putin or Trump -- or Russia in any meaningful way? And is that a green light to Russia?

EATON: Jim, first it is a green light to Russia. Russia has been the most reliable enemy since the end of World War II. If you ever needed an enemy, they were always there to make sure that we had an opponent that was near peer or peer, and they had the capability and maybe the intent to do great harm to the United States. It is baffling to this soldier that the president of the United States, the commander in chief will not call them out.

He cannot walk past this mistake, yet, he does over and over again and the mistake of this poisoning of the Putin opponent is revealing and indicates that the commander in chief cannot be trusted for reasons unknown to me.

[20:15:07]

But it certainly appears as if the Russians that Vladimir Putin has something very serious on this president.

SCIUTTO: General Eaton, Alex Horton, thanks for your commentary tonight, also thanks to both of you for your service to this country.

EATON: Jim, thank you.

Alex, take care.

SCIUTTO: A program note, CNN will bring the stories of Joe Biden and Donald Trump and their fight for the White House. See their triumphs, their tragedies and their dramatic journeys to a showdown. Don't miss the back to back documentary event starting Monday, 8:00 p.m. on CNN.

Stay right there. More on the story that froze out just about every other major political and economic headline today. How the president's reported words on veterans and those killed in action will reverberate on the campaign trail.

And later, almost six months since she was killed in a police raid, protesters expected to crowd Louisville this Labor Day weekend searching for justice for Breonna Taylor. Our Jason Carroll speaks with Taylor's mother when 360 continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Before the break, we heard from a retired Army major general, as well as a "Washington Post" reporter who served in Iraq for the military, and who is now one of several reporters who have corroborated pieces or added to "The Atlantic's" account of president's disdain for U.S. service members.

Today, the president said this about the men and women, four sources told "The Atlantic's" Jeffrey Goldberg the president referred to as suckers and losers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[20:20:10]

TRUMP: There is nobody that feels more strongly about our soldiers, our wounded warriors, our soldiers that died in war than I do. It's a hoax.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: The question is, after everything else the president has lied about, does he have the credibility to make those words not carry weight?

Here to speak out it, CNN political commentator Amanda Carpenter and CNN senior political analyst David Gergen.

David, you served four presidents. We know the president's record with the truth. Does he have the credibility to deny not just based on that general record of misleading or flat-out false statements but also his frequent comments in public disparaging members of the military, veterans and John McCain and others?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Exactly, Jim. Listen, I'm sorry to say this but I think this is -- if it is true, it's a dishonorable act and voters have to this November decide whether they want to discharge him or not.

But I never heard a president speak this way ever. I know presidents who are soft (ph) the military, presidents who love the military, they always showed respect. They treated them with dignity. They knew how much men and women have sacrificed and a lot is on the line.

So I think this is a very damming story. Is it true? We don't have the facts. I do think it's time because it's so important that whoever is one of these sources, come from behind the curtain and tell it to us straight up and put it on the record and do that for the country.

We need to know. It would be liable to do it if it were not true. So, I think that -- what's a more likely outcome? Listen to your belief. Trump says he insists he never called John McCain a loser and we have it on a public record?

We have John McCain said all these things are untrue and yet we know from "The Washington Post" that over these four years, he's issued over 20,000 lies or misleading statements, 20,000.

We know that people who are involved in (INAUDIBLE) and Jeffrey Goldberg is a very respected journalist. He's done a terrific job with "The Atlantic". All the signs point to the fact that it is true but we still don't have all the facts.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

I mean, to be clear, Amanda, as the president was saying, he never disparages the military. He took some fairly dramatic broadsides of John Kelly who not only served but also a son in combat.

I just wonder, you worked for Ted Cruz. You've worked for Republicans for many years. Is there a line for many Republicans? I mean, we use that phrase hold their nose and vote for this president on something like this? Does it cross a line?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think what we've seen there are different lines for lots of different people and I feel like a lot of times, even today, we're just chasing the next bad thing we heard about Trump saying, right? I mean, this is devastating, and I have every reason to believe it.

I would hope John Kelly would confirm it. But at the same time, I can understand how traumatic it would be, given the fact some comments were made by his son's graveside. I mean, that just rips me apart. I don't know what that would do to a parent quite honestly.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CARPENTER: But I have to ask my fellow Republicans what more do you need to know? I mean, his former Defense Secretary James Mattis came out and said he is a threat to the Constitution and he's the only president he seen that works to divide the American people instead of unite them. That happened after Lafayette Square.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CARPENTER: That -- listen to what -- don't listen to the partisan. Don't listen to me. Listen to what people who have worked for Donald Trump who have said about what they said on the record about how he treats soldiers.

Mattis came out and said that after he used the soldier's props to go get a photo-op in Lafayette Square. I mean, we know it. People have been telling us. Miles Taylor last week, Elizabeth Neumann who says she can't get him to pay attention to right wing terrorism.

All this stuff is out there and so I just would encourage people to take a step back and not evaluate what we know Donald Trump has said but what the people who have tried to help him and tried to warn us on the record have said.

SCIUTTO: Have you, David, again working for Presidents Clinton, Reagan, Ford and Nixon, but observing others, have you ever seen a president have so many people who work for him at the senior level say in public, often times with their names attached, often times not but often times with their names attached, that he's unqualified, unfit, incompetent? Have you -- is there any precedent for this?

GERGEN: N, and I think that's especially true, Jim, in the national security field you're so familiar.

[20:25:02]

If you look at the generals, the admirals, the national security advisors, people that work at the NSA, working at intelligence, there are over a dozen generals, admirals and people that have broken with him. So, particularly stunning is that people breaking with him are people that know him best, who spend a lot of time around him, know him best, and then they had testified to his liking (ph) character.

I still think that doesn't solve this problem, this particular set of statements which I think is so far beyond the bounds. But if you look at the entire record, Amanda is right, it really is a good question, Republican. What more do you need?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Listen, I wrote a book recently and spoke only to people who serve this president, and someone, one of his most senior advisors said that Putin is Trump's honey trap. Said explicitly Putin, that the president is in the thrall of Vladimir Putin. It's amazing what people who served him say.

Amanda, put this in the context of the race. We're 60 days from an election. I know that, you know, there is always outrage of the day, right, and often times people move on although there are things that are more lasting. Is this one lasting?

CARPENTER: If it's evaluated in the context of all the other officials who have spoken out. Again, there is a pattern here. It's not just a pattern of Donald Trump saying outrageous things, especially for -- this is for Republicans to consider.

People have tried to help him. There are Republicans in Congress who have tried to help him and they're unable to do so. And so, everybody does have a breaking point but what -- what more good can you do and if the answer is you've tried, you've gave it a good go and it didn't work and not going to work, look into your heart and ask yourself, what can you do in order to do good work in the future?

I think that naturally would lead you on a path away from Trump.

GERGEN: Yes, Jim --

SCIUTTO: Quickly before we go, sorry, David.

GERGEN: I just want to say I wanted to mention the generational issue and that is generation of generation of people who served the McCain family for example three to four generations of people who served. If you look at the Trumps, I can't find one Trump in the last three generations who have served this country in uniform. That's one that's particularly gulling to have these kinds of conversations about our military.

SCIUTTO: From "The Washington Post" reporting that the president just doesn't understand it. Why -- you don't get paid enough. Why serve? It's fundamental thing.

You know soldiers as I know both -- all three of us do, you know why. Amanda Carpenter, David Gergen, appreciate your time.

GERGEN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Straight ahead, as President Trump derides former President Biden for wearing a mask, something the science show saves lives, he maintains the country is, quote, rounding the corner with the coronavirus. This on a day where the death toll from COVID-19 approaches 188,000. A new model shows that may more than double by the end of the year.

We're keeping them honest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:32:30]

SCIUTTO: The President again this evening tried to put the pandemic where he would like it to be. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: By the way, we're rounding the corner. We're rounding the corner when the virus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well affects the otherwise, nearly 180,000 lives lost so far. And according to new modeling from the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation, one followed closely by the White House. There are sadly many more fatalities to come in this country. Under the IHMEs, most likely scenario 410,000 dead by years end. In the best case, 280,000 that is assuming very careful social distancing guidelines and, quote near universal mask usage, which is actually declining in this country.

And then the President while reading from prepared remarks today very briefly called on Americans to wear a mask when appropriate, when he is off prompter speaking to his crowds. It's a different story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Your second question was I couldn't hear you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The second -

TRUMP: Can you take it up because I cannot hear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll just speak louder, sir.

TRUMP: OK, because you want to be politically correct. Go ahead.

Somehow sitting in the Oval Office behind that beautiful Resolute desk. The great Resolute desk I think wearing a facemask as great presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens. I don't know somehow. I don't see it for myself.

No, I want people to have a certain freedom. And I don't believe in that. No, no. I don't agree with the statement that have everybody wear a mask, everything it disappears.

But did you ever see a man that likes a mask as much as him? And then he makes a speech and he always has it not always, but a lot of times he has it hanging down. Because you know what? It gives him a feeling of security. If I were psychiatrist. Right. No, I'd say this guy's got some big issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now CNN's chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta and William Haseltine, a former professor at the Harvard Medical School and the Harvard School of Public Health. He's also author of a Family Guide to COVID. Good to have both of you on.

Sanjay, it's been a few hours since I talked to you this morning. This model and again, these are not crystal balls, they're models they help give you a sense of what's going to come and you and I talk about this often. When we look at this actually IHME models in recent months have understated the death toll, undershot the death toll. When you look at these figures, do you find this a credible path of where this pandemic is going in this country?

[20:35:08]

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It was a pretty jarring 4:00 a.m. wake up call to look at that model Jim, I think for you and me both. Yes. I mean, it's -- it is not surprising, but that's pretty jarring. You know, I think these are the previous models. And as you point out, Jim, compare the projections versus what the real numbers were. And if anything, this particular organization has been conservative, that last one October, they said 180,000 people would die by their projection by October. Obviously, it's beginning of September, and we've already surpassed that. So that gives you some idea. You know, there was some sense that we had sort of plateaued in this country at our average of around 1,000 people dying a day, which is awful. It's horrific to think about and we shouldn't get used to ever saying that.

But what this model is now projecting is that those numbers are going to go up. Up to 3,000 people potentially dying every day by December. So, it's it does make sense sadly.

SCIUTTO: Professional Haseltine at the upper end, worst case scenario, a number could jump to 620,000 by January 1st, based on this model here. I mean, that presumes a further weakening of social distancing, mask wearing, et cetera, which we're seeing signs of. When you look at where this country is going with its habits now on this kind of exhaustion, right with the pandemic. Do you consider that a realistic outcome?

WILLIAM HASELTINE, PRESIDENT, ACCESS HEALTH INTERNATIONAL: Well, I think it is a realistic outcome. And we know that this epidemic depends on our own behavior, amongst other things. Where the President says we're rounding the corner reminds me very much, many years ago, when Linda Johnson said there's a light at the end of the tunnel. It turns that there was a tunnel at the end of the tunnel. And the numbers that we're looking at just think of what the on course number looks like. It looks like as many people dying between now and December, and we can ever sketch our own personal schedules go from now to December. Try this insane number of people as have died from the beginning of this epidemic. We are on track to die in the next three months. That's the average. If we take loosening up more than we are, it's three times that or 12,000 people a day die.

Now, what does 12,000 people a day look like? I can tell you in New York City, it looks like a makeshift morgue on the cross street. Two blocks down for me with 40 body bags on the street. One of them a friend of mine. That's what it looks like.

SCIUTTO: Yes, we saw it here in New York. New York towards credit. I'm here right now got it under control, but by taking very strict measures, right, to reduce the spread. Sanjay, a lot of folks --

HASELTINE: I know New Yorkers everybody's wearing a mask that you see. As you see 90%.

SCIUTTO: You see people stick to it. They stick to the rules to their credit, Sanjay, a lot of focus, of course on a vaccine. Russia is making progress here. But they're jumpstarting the process. Right? And that they're kind of rushing this out before the end of Phase 3 trials. Should we look at this as a good sign? I mean, is there good news in there on progress on a certain approach to a vaccine here, or are they going too fast?

GUPTA: You know, I'm glad they released some data. I will say that. But I think you will be well served to be a bit skeptical here, right. I mean, first of all, when we last heard about this, we heard about this vaccine was registered, it's kind of approved and, you know, and they're in Russia. You know, we heard that Putin's daughter got a dose of this, we heard that one of the investigators gave himself a dose of this vaccine. That's not science. Right? I mean, that that's just audacity.

But, you know, you've got to sort of take these things into context. If you look at the data, we can show what the data is. It's early data. I mean, you know, I think there's 76 patients that have now, you know, participated in the trial, they got two doses of this, according to the literature that was published in The Lancet to mild side effects, such as headache and fever, and it did show some evidence of generating antibodies, these types of neutralizing antibodies, not in the concentration that some of these other trials have, but they did show some of that.

Jim, I got to tell you, though, this is just a difficult story to cover. Because, you know, there's not a lot of transparency period, we're talking about the Russia vaccine. But frankly, with any of these vaccine candidates, we're seeing very limited data. Sometimes the data is coming to us by press release. Sometimes it's coming, you know, as a preprint. We would like to see better data. There's this bipartisan legislation that has been introduced called the safe authorization of vaccines during an emergency, which calls for the public to be able to get full transparency. I think that's a good thing, especially for this particular vaccine.

[20:40:12]

SCIUTTO: Yes, part of the driving force for that Professor Haseltine, is it not our fears in this country of political interference? I mean, you have the President saying today that, you know, vaccine by October and at CNN's reporting that he's putting pressure on health officials for some sort of that good vaccine news before the election. Should Americans be concerned that politics will influence the science here?

HASELTINE: Well, politics will influence the science if it can. And we should be concerned because we don't know what's going to be safe or effective. Nor can we know by November 1st. The second thing I would say is I've been looking at the Russian numbers. If they had a miracle vaccine, why are their numbers going up? They don't have a miracle vaccine. If you look at the data, as Sanjay just said, it looks like any ordinary Phase 1 study, they call it a Phase 2 study. It's not a Phase 2 study. It's important Phase 1 study with less than 100 people that did, OK. There's even a couple of features I would commend about the vaccine, that they have one form that's heat stable. It's (INAUDIBLE). That's good for the third world.

But it's not by any means an international standard or any kind of standard for which to approve a vaccine for general use.

SCIUTTO: Well, let's hoped the U.S. follows a better standard, Sanjay, William Haseltine. Thanks to both of you.

HASELTINE: You're welcome.

GUPTA: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, I'm going to speak with California Congresswoman Karen Bass, about race and politics. And the results of a new CNN poll on racism in America. Are people more or less likely now to believe it is a major problem in the U.S. today? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:32]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. For a time this year the need for social justice reform was something that Democrats and even many Republicans could agree on. That all happened after those protests in Minneapolis and around the world over the death in late May of George Floyd. Some of his final words pleading for his mother, with the police officers knee on his neck. These protests helped refocus attention on previous cases, such as that of Elijah McLean, a 23-year-old who died after authorities used ketamine to subdue him. But as violence has crept in, it appears that public support among some for social justice is fading.

According to a new CNN poll today, 55% of Americans think racism is a big problem in this country. Back in June that number was, was higher 67%.

I want to speak now about this and other issues with California Congresswoman Karen Bass, she is chair of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Congresswoman, thanks so much for joining us tonight.

REP. KAREN BASS (D-CA): Thanks for having me on.

SCIUTTO: When you look at these numbers here, do you worry that the moment after George Floyd's death that was more fleeting than you'd hoped in terms of a moment for change in this country?

BASS: No, actually, as somebody who has worked on this issue for decades, I really think that moment has caused a seismic shift in our country. When we've had past examples of murders on videos, you never heard people connecting it up to the larger issue of systemic racism. Now, I know the polls have dipped some, but I'm not discouraged by that. I do think that we have a lot of work that we need to do in showing very specific solutions to least abuse. SCIUTTO: And I was going to ask you about that, because after George floor that there was a push for legislation and it stopped right as so many things stop in Washington, between Democrats and Republicans. And kind of been put on the back burner, it seems until after the election. Did that disappoint you? Or are you shaking your head? Is it possible we'll see something before the election?

BASS: I am shaking my head because that is exactly what happened. What happened is, is that, you know, we did pass the bill out of the house with bipartisan support. However, there have been discussions that have continued bipartisan discussions have continued with Republicans in the House, and also with a couple of people in the Senate. Now my Republican colleagues are talking to their counterparts in the Senate and there is still hope. You know, in the legislative process, you have things that appear to go to the backburner, but they're actually out of the public eye.

SCIUTTO: OK, good. Well, we will let's keep up that conversation because we'd like to hear an update when, when we get there.

This week, you saw the President and his opponent, visit Kenosha. The President and actually, some even said about Joe Biden, don't come now. You know, there's too much going on here. When you looked at both of those visits, do you think they made a difference? A positive difference, a negative difference?

BASS: Well, I do think that what the Vice President did absolutely made a difference. And maybe if neither one of them went, I think it was very important that Biden go after Trump's visit. Because one of the reasons why I know there has been a decrease in those poll numbers is because Trump has been doing everything he can to stoke racial conflict. Absolutely. And that has had a negative impact. But because he went, and because he went in the manner in which he did, it was imperative for the vice president to go. And I'm glad he did. I think his visit was healing. He met with the family, he met with leaders in the community. And when leaders in the community asked Trump whether or not he thought there was a problem with racism and police, and he said, no, you can imagine what that meant to the African-Americans and other people in that community.

SCIUTTO: So on that point, I'm sure you heard the Attorney General Bill Barr tell my colleague Wolf Blitzer, early this week, his view of whether there are two justice systems in this country. Have a listen, I want to get your response.

BASS: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I don't think there are two justice systems. Let's -- you know, I think the narrative that there's that the police are on some epidemic of shooting unarmed black men is simply a false narrative and also the narrative that that's based on race. The demonization of the police and the idea that this is so widespread an epidemic is simply false.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:50:04]

SCIUTTO: False narrative false epidemic. What's your response?

BASS: You know what? At the end of the day you look at data, you look at data, how can you say that there's not two justice systems. The picture of that young man, actually the 17-year-old, I hesitate to call him a man walking down the street with an AR-15 after he had killed two people shot a wounded a third, the police do absolutely nothing. If that had been a black man, he would have taken two steps, he would have been filled with 20 or 30 bullets. They gave him water and sent him home did not even arrest him. And what did they do to, you know, so I mean, it's there. You look at the data, you look at the incarceration rate, you look at the arrest rate. I would fully expect that though from Attorney General Barr because he is not the Attorney General for the United States. He is the personal attorney for the President.

SCIUTTO: Representative Karen Bass. Thanks so much for joining. I hope we can keep up the conversation.

BASS: Thanks for having me on.

SCIUTTO: And just ahead we will continue discussion on this topic of conversation with the mother of Breonna Taylor, no charges in the death of her daughter. After a police raid almost six months ago now protesters expected to gather tomorrow demanding action.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:55:30]

SCIUTTO: It has been almost six months since the killing of Breonna Taylor by police in Louisville, and no charges have been filed in her death after police obtained a now banned no-knock search warrant. Taylor's boyfriend who survived the encounter said the officers did not announce themselves during the late night raid. Police say they did. Regardless large protests are expected this Labor Day and Derby Day weekend in Louisville.

CNN Jason Carroll spoke with Taylor's mother about the shooting and their family search for justice.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Breonna Taylor's mother is still looking for answers.

TAMIKA PALMER, MOTHER OF BREONNA TAYLOR: I've never had a lot of faith in the system. I just because I've seen it fail the people so many times. So, and going through this I definitely have less faith just like I said I just can't understand for the life of me why it's taken so long.

CARROLL (voice-over): Tamika Palmer says she waited five months for answers, five months since her daughter was shot and killed by police.

PALMER: A lot of times you want to you want to give up, you want to walk away but I know that she deserves justice.

CARROLL (voice-over): Taylor was killed in the early morning hours of March 13th. After Louisville police serving a no-knock warrant broke down her door with a battering ram. Police say they banged on the door but got no response. Her boyfriend says he fired a shot thinking they were intruders and police opened fire. Taylor a 26-year-old emergency room technician died within minutes of being shot.

PALMER: Anger, (INAUDIBLE) hurt, guilt.

CARROLL (on-camera): Guilt, why guilt?

PALMER: As a parent, you failed the one job is to protect your baby and I wasn't there.

CARROLL (voice-over): While the investigation is not complete, one point is tragically clear. Police forced entry into Taylor's home wrongly suspecting she was connected to a drug ring. That operation ended with Taylor's death and lots of unanswered questions about the officer's actions.

Protesters have continuously called for the three officers involved in her shooting to be prosecuted. None have been charged. But in June, the Louisville Metro Police Department did fire one of the officers Detective Brett Hankinson for showing an extreme indifference to the value of human life after he allegedly fired 10 shots into Taylor's home. His attorney appealed the dismissal and disputed the allegation. Hankinson blindly fired his weapon.

In the wake of Taylor's death, the Louisville city council has passed Breonna's Law, which bans no-knock warrants and requires officers serving search warrants to wear body cameras. A state version of the law introduced last week. Taylor's family says they continue to be inspired by words and actions of support.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FMR FIRST LADY: As George Floyd Breonna Taylor, and a never ending list of innocent people of color continue to be murdered. Stating the simple fact that a black life matters is still met with derision from the nation's highest office.

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA) VICE-PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: There is no vaccine for racism. We've got to do the work for George Floyd, for Breonna Taylor.

CARROLL (voice-over): Athletes all over the world have taken a stand for the Black Lives Matter movement, Taylor's portrait, gracing the cover of this month's Vanity Fair back in Louisville, 26 billboards posted around the city. One for each year of her life and calls for justice continue.

PALMER: I think they'll -- there'll be protests every day. And so justice is served.

CARROLL (on-camera): And if justice is not served?

PALMER: I don't know. I just, I hate to even think about that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Jason Carroll joins us now. Jason, you're at Churchill Downs. Of course, the site of tomorrow's Kentucky Derby, where protesters are expected to demonstrate. How big a demonstration what do we expect?

CARROLL: Well, they're expecting hundreds if not more demonstrators are show up here tomorrow. Jim, I spoke to one of the organizers tonight. They know that all eyes are going to be on Louisville tomorrow and they say it's the perfect time to remind people that they say that still has not been justice for Breonna Taylor or her family. Jim?

SCIUTTO: The Derby is a big event in Louisville. It's a good way to attract attention. Thanks so much, Jason Carroll.

[21:00:00]

The news continues. So I'm going to hand it over to my colleague Don Lemon. You might know him on "CNN TONIGHT."