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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump Holds Rally in Iowa with No Social Distancing; WaPo says Unmasking Probe Commissioned by Barr Concludes without Charges or Any Public Report; Wash Post: "Unmasking" Probe Commissioned By Barr Concludes Without Charges Or Any Public Report; NY Times: As Virus Spread Early On, Reports Of Trump Administration Briefings Fueled Sell-Off; Former Pres. Obama Responds To Pres. Trump's Call To Indict Him; Trump, Biden Supporters Square Off In Pennsylvania. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 14, 2020 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: AC360 begins now.
[20:00:05]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Good evening. Thanks for joining us. As you look at the President's third straight night on his potential super spreader tour, think about this. Minnesota's Department of Health reports it now has traced 16 cases of COVID to one of the President's trips there last month.
It is clear that the President does not care about the virus spreading at his rallies just as he seems unconcerned about it spreading at numerous indoor and outdoor White House events over the last several weeks and months.
The question tonight: has the President decided to go for so-called herd immunity? Is that in fact already the unstated policy of this White House? Now, the idea as you probably know, simply put is let as many healthy people as possible catch the virus. It is not as new idea. And it is one the President once said he rejected, but now, he certainly seems to be willing to let as many of his own followers risk infection as possible at his own rallies.
The idea of herd immunity made headlines again recently with three scientists put out what they called The Great Barrington Declaration, quoting from it now, they wrote, the most compassionate approach that balances the risk and benefits of reaching herd immunity is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection while better protecting those who are at highest risk, we call this focused protection."
Now, The Declaration presents no data. It was not published in a peer reviewed publication, but it does sound familiar. Here is what radiologist and the doctor who now has the President's ear, Scott Atlas was saying on the subject in April.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. SCOTT ATLAS, MEMBER OF WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASKFORCE: We can
allow a lot of people to get infected, those who are not at risk to be -- to die or have a serious hospital requiring illness, we should be fine with letting them get infected, generating immunity on their own and the more immunity in the community, the better we can eradicate the threat of the virus including the threat to people who are vulnerable.
That's what herd immunity is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Dr. Atlas now seems to be the President's closest adviser on the pandemic, now that Doctors Fauci, Birx and Redfield have pretty much been shoved aside.
With the President looking for any way to declare victory over the virus, it looks more and more as if herd immunity or its euphemism, focused protection is now something he may be okay with without actually saying so.
Early last week though, scientists behind this Great Barrington Declaration met with Dr. Atlas and H.H.S. Secretary Alex Azar who tweeted quote, "We heard strong reinforcement of the Trump administration's strategy of aggressively protecting the vulnerable while opening schools and the workplace."
In a separate tweet, he characterized the meetings as quote, " ... part of our commitment to ensure we hear broad and diverse scientific perspectives. What he did not do and what Dr. Atlas has not done is say that reaching herd immunity, if that's even possible could put thousands or even millions of lives at risk.
Again, take a look at tonight's crowd. How many of the young people you see there live with or come in contact with older people? How many health looking people are on chemotherapy or have diabetes or overweight or have other risk factors for dying of COVID that some might not even know of?
Who amongst these people might get the disease and recover, but suffer painful long term complications as a lot of once healthy people who had mild COVID infections were never even hospitalized are now experiencing?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. WILLIAM HASELTINE, CHAIR AND PRESIDENT, ACCESS HEALTH INTERNATIONAL: Herd immunity is another word for mass murder. That is exactly what it is. If you allow this virus to spread as they are advocating, we are looking at two to six million Americans dead, not just this year, but every year.
The reason for that is that there is no such thing as herd immunity. These viruses -- coronaviruses -- come back year after year and infect the very same people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's Professor William Haseltine who unlike Dr. Atlas does specialize in infectious diseases. He is not alone in his view of herd immunity.
Just over an hour ago, 80 scientists pushed back on The Great Barrington Declaration in a letter to "The Lancet" which is perhaps the world's most foremost medical journal. Quoting now, "This [meaning herd immunity] is a dangerous fallacy unsupported by scientific evidence." The authors point out that in some regions, 30 percent of the population is at high risk for severe forms of COVID and that isolating that many people is, as they say, scientifically and ethically problematic.
They go on to say, quote, "We cannot afford distractions that undermine an effective response." That appears to be precisely what the White House is entertaining, without coming clean about the downside of it, without saying the whole letting lots of people get infected part out loud, only by implication.
Recall, Secretary Azar's tweet. He said, quote, "Aggressively protecting the vulnerable." Not everyone, the vulnerable.
So does that mean, not aggressively protecting everyone? Does it mean letting some people or even many people get sick?
We don't know and neither does the public. Here is the President late last month.
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DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are relentlessly focused on protecting the vulnerable while enabling healthy Americans to go back to work. We can do both as Florida and Arizona and other states have recently shown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Relentlessly focused, he says, not on keeping us all safe, not in all of us wearing masks to protect ourselves and to protect others, just some. No mention of herd immunity.
In a background briefing yesterday, a senior official told reporters that the administration does not endorse a herd immunity plan and that the President's policy hasn't changed. The official again, using the magic word protecting the vulnerable while reopening schools and businesses.
But if that's all there is to it, there have been moments when the President himself has suggested otherwise, although it didn't quite get the words right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You'll develop -- you'll develop like a herd mentality, it's going to be it's going to be herd developed, and that's going to happen, that will all happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That will all happen. The question tonight is trying to make it happen. Is he trying to make it happen or let it happen? Is that also his policy? And if so, why isn't the public being given a say in this?
One other quick note, late today, the First Lady revealed that her son, Barron, contracted COVID, suffered no symptoms and has since tested negative. Jim Acosta joins us now from the rally in Des Moines. So Jim, what are you hearing from people there?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, what we're hearing from Trump supporters tonight is that they're placing their trust in the President, as opposed to what top health experts have been saying for months that people should avoid crowds, they should practice social distancing, they should wear masks, hardly any of that is happening here.
When you look at the crowd here this evening, you don't see people wearing masks, you don't see people practicing social distancing. And when we talked to Trump supporters coming into this rally earlier tonight, they were all about saying if I get sick, even if I die, so be it. Here's what they had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Again, I just any health concerns about being at the rally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have any concerns at all. You can't live your life in fear, and I'm not really scared of this virus. There's all kinds of other viruses out there that could jeopardize your health as well. So I can't stop living?
ACOSTA: And ma'am, what do you think? You feel the same way, I guess?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a 99.9 percent survival rate and I am going to continue to live my life. And I hope -- I hope everybody else does, too. I mean, I'm going to -- I'm going to continue to -- to live and I'm not going to be in fear of it.
ACOSTA: And what do you think about Trump getting the virus? What did you make of that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think anybody can get the virus. And Trump getting the virus shows that we are all human, and anyone can get the virus. And you can be cautious and you can get the virus.
ACOSTA: What about getting all of these people together in one space, they call that a super spreader.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You could have two people in one space, and you could get the virus.
ACOSTA: We're just asking folks -- we're just -- we're just wondering how people feel about the safety of going to the rally with all those people there. Do you think it's a health risk?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't. I don't because I feel like yes, the COVID it's kind of dangerous, and it can be for some people, but for the most of us, and we're going to go on with life. You know, if I'm going to get sick and die, I guess it's my turn. But I trust God and I am not scared.
ACOSTA: But if you don't put yourself at risk, you might not die.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I put myself at risk, every time I go to the grocery store, I go to McDonald's, I go to work. I do anything. I'm not going to stop living.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: And Anderson, after speaking with some of those Trump supporters, we could see them filing into this event. They were still not wearing their masks. And one thing we should point out to our viewers Anderson, the campaign is trying to pull a fast one with the audience tuning in at home.
They have placed Trump supporters behind the President wearing MAGA masks to give the false impression that most of the people here are wearing those masks. That is not the case. The people behind the President represent really a minority of the folks who were in this crowd tonight -- Anderson.
COOPER: Yes, I just -- I don't understand why they do that. I mean, if they feel so confident in, you know, encouraging people not to wear masks, I mean, the President certainly has downplayed masks from the very get-go Why would they go other than to manipulate people's belief?
You know, all of -- everybody who is not there's belief that everyone is wearing a mask. But if they're so proud of people not wearing masks, why are they you know, putting masks that they've clearly given out to those people, all of which have the slogan of the campaign on.
ACOSTA: Anderson, I think they understand that there is some serious apprehension out there with a lot of voters, a lot of independent moderate voters who see these events and just think that they're playing crazy to have all of these people packing in here who are not practicing social distancing and not using masks and you know there are people in this community, Anderson, who are sharply critical of what's happening positioned just outside of the Des Moines Airport where we're standing right now.
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ACOSTA: There is a billboard that says "Trump super spreader event" with an arrow pointing over here to where this rally is taking place tonight. Very big concerns in this community that the President is going to be throwing gasoline on the coronavirus problem in Iowa, which has been getting worse over recent days -- Anderson.
COOPER: Jim Acosta. I appreciate it. Thank you. Perspective now from Dr. Richard Besser, former Acting Director of the
C.D.C., currently President and CEO of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Dr. Besser doesn't make any sense to you that I mean, anyone on the White House or connected to the White House would argue for massive widespread infection in the name of herd immunity.
If you look at the University of Washington projections, they show that, you know, 1.2 million people in the U.S. alone could die with a herd immunity strategy. And even the President early on used to mock Sweden for the choices they made. It seems like he's not doing that anymore.
DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR OF THE C.D.C.: Well, you know, if you look at Sweden, they have the highest death rate in Europe, and they have taken an approach of having people go about their business, no masks, none of the precautions that public health is calling on here.
This Great Barrington approach that's getting a lot of discussion today, it calls on young people to go out live their lives, not wear masks and get infected. What we've seen where that takes place this summer in Florida, in Texas and Arizona, is that the rising cases in young people doesn't stay with young people. It's followed a week or so later by rising cases in groups that are much greater risk of having severe disease or dying, the elderly, people with underlying medical conditions.
And the other aspect of this, Anderson is, you know, as you look at who have been affected to date the most, people of color: black Americans, Latino Americans, and Native Americans dying at rates that far surpass the proportion of the population three to five times that of white Americans.
If we go with this strategy, we will see a continuing disparate impact on people of color, on lower income people who have to go to work who don't have the choice of working remotely, and the fairness of that Anderson is just unbelievable.
COOPER: The other thing about this herd immunity idea is it is sort of predicated on what seems like a very early in the pandemic notion that, you know, it's only old people who are going to get sick, and are at risk and young people bounce back from it. When we now know, I mean, there are what they call long haulers, people who have long lasting symptoms, six, seven months out who had relatively mild cases weren't even hospitalized, but they are coming down with these -- they have continuing symptoms. And we don't -- and doctors don't really know a whole ton about that.
BESSER: I think this kind of approach really underestimates how little we still know about this virus. We don't know what proportion of the population would need to be infected for the virus to not be able to spread easily within communities.
And we don't know -- you're right, we don't know the answer the question of what's the long term impact? We don't know for children who tend to have very low rates of hospitalization and death, whether there's any long term consequences anything later in life from having this infection when they're young.
So the idea that we would just go forward and say, go ahead and get infected, isn't a strategy that is willing to sacrifice thousands and thousands of lives in America for something that is unproven and untested, when the possibility may be out there that there's a vaccine or other strategies that can get us back to a more working society.
COOPER: Obviously, the President is, you know, using the fact that he had COVID. And, you know, as a sign not only of his own strength, but also that he is, you know, able to bounce back and that it's not so bad. He is now saying he is immune.
You know, put aside the fact that he got medical care that most people who get COVID will never be able to get, but the very little experts who know about COVID-19 and immunity, it is not clear, and correct me if I'm wrong, how short lived or how long that immunity may last for.
BESSER: Right. It is one of those unanswered questions. It does look like if you have this infection, it's likely you know, to date, we've only been able to follow people now for eight to nine months. It's very rare to get a second infection. There have been about five documented cases of this. But we don't know. We don't know how long that protection lasts, and that's a very important question.
COOPER: This whole idea of with herd immunity of, you know, focus everything on protecting the vulnerable and let others go to school work and they'll get infected and they'll bounce back because they're young.
I mean, first of all, there's a huge pool of those who are particularly vulnerable: elderly, people with preexisting conditions, obesity, the idea that you're somehow going to magically be able to protect them, it is not like they're all in nursing homes. I mean, it's -- I just -- I mean, what are you going to do? Round up all of these people and somehow protect them?
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BESSER: And that's how the argument is laid out. It is, well, you could protect people in nursing homes, you could test the workers in nursing homes, but people at risk are not limited to nursing homes. There are so many young people who live in multigenerational households, and so they'd be coming home with infection and infecting others.
So many people don't have a choice of where they go to work and they're going to work with underlying medical conditions that put them at risk for severe disease.
I mean, it's a really bad decision to think about going forward this way, when, you know, one of the false arguments around this is that you hear the description of it, either we're totally shut down as a society, or we're totally open.
What public health is allowing us to do if we follow the guidance of public health is that we can gradually open parts of society, get people back to school. We are seeing colleges, where it's going quite well. We are seeing some schools where it's going quite well. If we follow that roadmap, if people were all to wear masks, we would have a lot more economic activity than we currently have.
The idea that you have to just allow young people to get this infection from a public health standpoint, from an epidemiologic standpoint, just doesn't make sense.
COOPER: Just lastly, we knew the First Lady was infected with COVID- 19, in addition to the President; today, Mrs. Trump announced that their young son, Barron was also infected. She says, thankfully, that he is okay. He has now tested negative.
But it does just underscore the risk faced by people within the same household as someone who is infected, I mean, clearly, enough precautions were not taken in the White House, nor are they being taken at the President's rallies.
BESSER: You know, when we talk about herd immunity, you know, as a pediatrician, we talk about it as protecting those who are unable to get vaccinated, who really need our protection. So people who have cancer and are getting treatment; people who have immune problems and can't get a vaccine are in a greater risk.
We don't talk about it as a way of, well, let's just get everybody infected so the disease stops transmitting. I mean, it's a specific concept that's used, you know, to let you know what percentage of a population has to be vaccinated in order to protect those who are at the greatest risk.
You know, I'm very grateful that the President's son had a mild infection, but not all children do and we want to do everything we can to protect all children from this as well.
COOPER: Yes. Dr. Richard Besser, appreciate it. Thank you.
BESSER: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Coming up next. New reporting with more evidence that as the public was being told the pandemic was under control, some big Republican donors were getting a different or troubling message when they reportedly enabled a number of Wall Street investors to potentially cash in.
Later, remember the so-called unmasking scandal the President kept talking about on and on, the whole unmasking greatest political scandal in history. The one he said that President Obama and Joe Biden and others should go to jail for. We have reaction from two top Obama Intelligence officials now that the scandal so-called itself has been unmasked as a whole lot of nothing.
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COOPER: The President is again acting tonight as though the pandemic is behind us, or at least, it shouldn't be concern for most of us, which in a way has been a constant going back to the very beginning.
We already know from the President's conversations with Bob Woodward reporting that he knew as far back as early February how bad this could be, which he didn't share with the public.
Tonight, "The New York Times" has new reporting on yet another example, even earlier in which the public was kept in the dark but others weren't.
Mark Mazzetti shares the byline. He is a CNN senior national security analyst and "New York Times" Washington investigative correspondent. And well, we just lost him. But we'll try to get back in touch with Mark. It's a fascinating report that is in "The Times." We'll wait until we get back to him to get to it.
Tonight, President Trump and his allies are sifting through the wreckage of what they said and what they convinced supporters was a major scandal at the tail-end of the Obama administration, when it spawned a Justice Department probe that they believe would upend everything people thought they knew about the Trump-Russia investigation, and the President had hoped provide a boon for the President just in time for the November election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Obama campaign spied on our campaign and they've been caught. All right. And now let's see what happens to them.
We caught them spying on my campaign. Who would have believed that one?
They have been caught. They've been caught red handed. It's probably treason. It's a horrible thing they did.
The unmasking is a massive -- it's a massive thing. It's -- I just got a list. It's -- who can believe a thing like this.
It probably never happened before, at least nobody got caught doing it. But they used the Intelligence Agencies of our country to spy on my campaign and they have been caught.
There was absolutely spying into my campaign. I'll go a step further, in my opinion, it was illegal spying, unprecedented spying.
This was all Obama. This was all Biden. These people were corrupt. The whole thing was corrupt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So none of that was true. According to "The Washington Post," the Federal prosecutor appointed to investigate whether Obama officials improperly requested names redacted in U.S. Intelligence documents and thus help prove that, quote, "spying occurred," has completed his report and he reportedly found no substantive wrongdoing. None. More from CNN's Jessica Schneider. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): President Trump reacting to the news of his much hyped conspiracy theory fizzling in an afternoon interview.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a disgrace. They are guilty as hell.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER (voice over): Mr. Trump also expressing exasperation with the Attorney General refusing to say if he'll keep Barr around
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
QUESTION: Bill Barr? Will he be around in a second term?
TRUMP: I have no comment. I can't comment on that. It is too early.
QUESTION: Too early.
TRUMP: I am not happy with all of the evidence I had, I can tell you that I'm not happy.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER (voice over): It's a sudden end to the unmasking investigations Republicans were relying on to prove wrongdoing by the Obama administration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That we weren't involved in the COVID-19 crisis. This would be a scandal, the biggest thing since Watergate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER (voice over): So much for that. The President's self- created conspiracy accusing his predecessor of treason involved the unmasking of Michael Flynn, the President's first National Security adviser.
Flynn was swept up in foreign intelligence gathering when he spoke with foreign officials who were being monitored by U.S. Intelligence. Typically, Americans names are kept secret, but several Obama officials unredacted or unmasked Flynn's identity.
And in May, the acting Director of National Intelligence released the names of Obama officials who allegedly requested that unmasking and they included former Vice President Joe Biden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This was all Obama. This was all Biden. These people were corrupt. The whole thing was corrupt, and we caught them. We caught them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER (voice over): But unmasking is not illegal. Senior government officials have the ability to ask for names in certain circumstances. In fact, the Trump administration unmasked nearly 17,000 Americans identities in 2018, compared with about 9,000 under President Obama in 2016.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: To turn this into some sort of a conspiracy, in an effort to support the President's political narratives and for the Justice Department to pick that up and pursue an investigation on absolutely no grounds. It's disgusting. It's just absolutely horrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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SCHNEIDER (voice over): Just last week, Trump called for charges against Obama and Biden.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TRUMP: These people should be indicted. This was the greatest political crime in the history of our country. And that includes Obama and it includes Biden,
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER (voice over): With word that the investigation into what Trump falsely labeled as treason is over, top Trump allies say they are going to be asking for more answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I saw that I want to follow up and if they've completed their report, I'd like to know what it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER (voice over): Jessica Schneider, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Let's get perspective now from two top ranking Intelligence officials in the Obama administration, whom Republicans tried to tie to these unfounded allegations of spying, retired Lieutenant General James Clapper, former Director of National Intelligence and a CNN national security analyst. He is the author of "Facts and Fears: Hard Truths from a Life in Intelligence." Also with us, John Brennan, former Director of the C.I.A. and author of "Undaunted: My Fight against America's Enemies at Home and Abroad." Director Brennan, you've been consistent in your position that there
was nothing improper here. I'm wondering what your reaction was when this whole unmasking probe just fizzled out?
JOHN BRENNAN, FORMER C.I.A. DIRECTOR: Well, I think, Anderson, that it is consistent with what I thought was going to happen. But that once they looked into this, they would realize that there was absolutely nothing inappropriate or wrong that took place.
I think from the very start, this was a politically motivated probe that Attorney General Barr initiated in order to please Donald Trump. And so I'm glad that it resulted in no charges and even no report, because the unmasking that went on was consistent with the practices that are used in the National Security arena when senior officials need to have an understanding of who might be involved in some type of activity of concern to the Intelligence officials.
COOPER: Director Clapper, I mean, I guess it's not surprising that they didn't -- that you know, Attorney General Barr didn't announce that this has all come to nothing, that they just kind of -- this just has -- they just hoping this news just disappears, like the investigation itself, because they don't want to draw attention to the fact that the President was just making stuff up and calling them -- you know, saying that the former President had committed treason, et cetera.
But it's pretty -- it's pretty weak for them to launch this investigation, call these people treasonous, and then not make any public declaration, not have the Attorney General stand up and say, you know, the investigation is over?
JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, yes, I'd certainly prefer that the Attorney General would announce that the investigation is over and there were no findings of wrongdoing. But that wouldn't support the narrative that the President wants.
And as you showed, you know, he is kind of disappointed and all this. But like, John, it certainly came as no surprise because this is a longstanding routine procedure, when a U.S. person is engaged with a valid foreign intelligence target, and that's an important phrase, it is perfectly legitimate and appropriate to find out who that is in the context of, does this pose a threat to the safety and security of the country?
COOPER: Director Brennan, this conspiracy was being pushed for a long time, not only by the president, but you know, his allies in Congress, FOX News. I wonder, has the well been poisoned so deeply that it won't change the minds of those, you know, convinced something occurred?
BRENNAN: Well, unfortunately, Donald Trump and other members of the Republican Party continue to propagate these conspiracy theories and try to besmirch the reputations of former officials. And unfortunately, I think those who want to believe them will believe them and will not understand exactly that this is all being done for political purposes. And as Jim said, it, again, is a normal practice that, unfortunately,
has been mischaracterized by those who want to paint the Obama administration as having engaged in something that was inappropriate. But the investigation of Russian interference and the activities that the Intelligence and law enforcement engaged in during that period of time were obligations on the part of those agencies to ensure that the President and others understood the extent and the scope of what the Russians were doing to try to interfere in that election.
COOPER: Director Clapper -- okay, go ahead.
CLAPPER: Just to add to that, Anderson, I just say we would have been derelict have we not looked into this. I also might add that while the Justice Department investigation apparently is over, John and I, among many others are still on the subpoena list for the Senate Homeland Security and Government Operations Committee, which I believe is still investigating unmasking.
[20:30:05]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Director Clapper, I mean, this is in some ways it -- it's sort of another example of the President, you know, throwing something out there and then using the arms of government to try to validate his unsupported conclusion. It's like his voter fraud commission that was launched with great fanfare because he believed, you know, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote because, you know, so millions of undocumented immigrants were, you know, vote voting multiple times in California and elsewhere. And then that just gets disbanded because they can't find any actual proof of this. Except what's different this time is, I mean, he was talking about treason which is punishable by death.
CLAPPER: Well, which is completely absurd and I think like reflection, misunderstanding what treason is. But to John's point, I just read for something and he said that, you know, unfortunately, when words matter when the President of United States says something, people listen to it. And for some people in this country, his base, they're always going to be believers, regardless of whether there's actual fact, to back up what he says.
COOPER: Director Brennan, your book, your new book is titled Undaunted, My Fight against America's Enemies At Home and Abroad. The New York Times wrote, Undaunted, opens and closes with scathing discussions of Trump, there can be little doubt whom the book subtitle with its reference to fighting America's enemies at home is pointing to. Do you think of the President of United States as an enemy? And if so, of who?
JOHN BRENNAN, FMR CIA DIRECTOR: Well, I certainly think that he has been ill prepared, ill equipped and incompetent in terms of carrying out the duties of the President of United States, which that office is designed to keep this country safe and strong. And unfortunately, as we have seen in terms of his interactions with Vladimir Putin, as well as with other authoritarian leaders around the world, I do not believe that he is helping and strengthening U.S. national security. In fact, he is undermining it, including by not relying on those alliances and partnerships that have been so important to the United States and to global stability and security of the last 75 years.
So, I do consider that he has been a problem from an (INAUDIBLE) standpoint, that he is not fulfilling the responsibilities that Jim and I have not only expected from a President of United States but have seen in previous presidents that we've served.
COOPER: Director Brennan, Director James Clapper, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
BRENNAN: Thank you.
CLAPPER: Thanks.
COOPER: Just ahead, we fixed our technical difficulties with New York Times' Mark Mazzetti. We're going to have his fascinating new reporting, next.
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[20:36:13]
COOPER: We had some technical difficulties getting to Mark Mazzetti, his reporting tonight in New York Times. So what the administration was and it was not telling the public in late February about the pandemic and what they were telling investors. He joins us now.
Mark, thanks so much for being with us. It's a fascinating report. You begin with reminder the back on February 24th weeks before this was even declare pandemic, President Trump sent out a tweet and a random part quote the coronavirus is very much under control in the USA and stock market starting to look very good to me. That was in public. Your reporting found that in private on the exact same day members of his economic team were delivering a different message to others. What did you learn?
MARK MAZZETTI, WASHINGTON INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK TIMES: Well, we're reporting is that over those next couple days, the 24th and the 25th. There were some private meetings with a group of board members of the Hoover Institution, which is a conservative think tank research institution, and many of them big Republican donors. And in private, some of the economic advisors to the President were being far more cautious about what the impact could be. And when I say cautious, they were effectively warning that it actually could be worse than what the President and his advisors were saying in public.
And what we report is from those meetings, there was a memo that circulated very quickly around the hedge fund world and some very big hedge funds, spread it to their friends, some of their clients, and this fueled this big stock market sell off that happened this week. It was this critical period of time when any information about what the government really knew about coronavirus was essential not only for the public, but also for people trading the market.
COOPER: Larry Kudlow, President Trump's Director of the National Economic Council said this on CNBC about the virus the next day after that presidential tweet. Let's play that. Oh, actually, he said as far as the U.S. is concerned -- oh here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR, WH NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: U.S. is concerned. When you look at this mean, you have a little higher headcount on the infections, because of the cruise ship people coming off. We have contained this, we have contained this, I won't say air tight, but pretty close to air tight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, was he saying something else in private?
MAZZETTI: Yes. So a couple hours after that interview, which became kind of infamous for the Trump administration, not really leveling with the public about the extent of the problem. A couple hours after that there was a private session with this group, and he's asked about it, and he kind of backpedals according to our reporting and could and according to the memo that was written, which was he said, well, it's locked up to down to this point, but now quote, we just don't really know. And this was read as another sign for the person who wrote this memo, who attended the sessions that clearly the economic team is concerned, they're far more concerned than they in private than they are showing in public. And then this is a signal a red flag for investors to start short, basically shorting the stock market.
COOPER: Right, shorting is -- if they expect the stock market to go down they can benefit by shorting, shorting where the market is going to go.
MAZZETTI: Right. If you're betting the stock market's going to fall then if it does, you make money. And an interesting thing Cooper sorry Anderson, is that, is if you are short the market, you want other shorts along with you. You want people to go along with you. So, in effect, your bet pays off.
So, that's what we saw. The first was this hedge fund Appaloosa run by David Tepper, who's a very successful hedge fund manager. It circulates in his fund and around and other people start following his lead. So, it's sort of how some privileged information can be used by investors to gain advantage before the public really has this information.
[20:40:08]
COOPER: It's fascinating reporting in the New York Times Mark Mazzetti. Thank you so much.
MAZZETTI: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: Up next, long lines for early voting. What does it mean for turnout less than three weeks from Election Day? We'll take a look at that.
Also, new comments from President Obama on calls to indict him by President Trump. That's when we continue. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: On the 14 million ballots already cast less than three weeks to Election Day long lines for early voting pointing to major sometimes controversial issues with voting like technical glitches and allegations of politically motivated obstruction but also huge enthusiasm. Georgia today said it had record turnout when early voting began on Monday and the 10% of total voters have already cast their vote. Both Trump and Biden campaigns now trying to figure out who benefits from this voting surge. Want to break down the campaign as it stands with John King.
JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Anderson, 20 days out the math is indisputable. In the race to 270, Joe Biden leads and leads quite comfortably. We have met to 90 right now. Deep Blue, solid Biden, light blue, leans (ph) Biden. Joe Biden at 290 takes 272 win. The President at 163, meaning he has a long way to go. Now where the candidates campaign, where they go tells you a lot about how they see the race. So, let's start by looking at that. If you look at the campaign travel just this week, Kamala Harris in Washington for the Supreme Court hearings, Joe Biden visiting Florida, North Carolina, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Yes, he needs Pennsylvania. These other states though Joe Biden does not need them. He's trying to stretch his advantage. He's on offense, not defense.
The President and Vice President look at this, Florida, Iowa, Michigan, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, all states the Republican ticket carried in 2016. All states they are in peril of losing in 2020. That's one way to look at it.
Here's another way to look at it. Yes, the President came back in 2016. Yes, Republicans believe some do anyway that he can pull off another miracle. But look at this, 10 recent battleground state polls. What's missing? Nowhere is the President ahead. Joe Biden leading with a big lead in Pennsylvania, a big lead in Wisconsin, a healthy lead in Michigan. Yes, North Carolina is close. Ohio is close, Georgia's close, Iowa's a tie. Those states all in play for the President. But nowhere, if you look at the battleground polling, are you getting numbers saying the President has momentum. The President is pulling ahead or pulling away. Again advantage Biden.
So, let's come back to this map. Here's what's striking the gold are toss ups right now, right. You have five states is toss ups main second congressional district most people think at least at the moment that's going Biden's way. So let's put it off the map one, two, three, four, five states, Joe Biden can win the presidency without winning Florida, without winning North Carolina, without flipping more Republican states like Ohio or Iowa, Joe Biden can win without winning the toss up still on the map.
[20:45:22]
Can the President win? Yes, yes, yes. But it's a steep climb. He must win Ohio, no Republican can win the White House without it. He must win Florida. He must keep Georgia red. He must keep North Carolina red. And he must win Iowa. So, if the President sweeps our tossups, he's back in the game. But he's still short, which is why it gets so complicated. Even at this point. Even if he won all the toss up states still on the map. He has to take something away. And not just one, let's say the President won out in Arizona, it's not enough, right. So he would have to take away something big like Pennsylvania to do it where Joe Biden has a big lead right now.
Let's say the President does get Pennsylvania but Joe Biden holds on to Arizona. Look at that Biden's still in the lead. This is why the chess game gets so complicated. The President must win the toss up states on this map. But then he has to take something away. At the moment, what he did in 2016, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin at this moment, it looks out of reach. So, the President first has to tie up these toss up states. And then he's going to have to find Anderson even more possible at the moment, though, very tough.
COOPER: John King. John, thanks very much.
For political perspective, let's bring in Congresswoman Val Demings, who represents a district in the swing state of Florida. Congresswoman Demings, Present Trump, Vice President Biden were both making their cases in Florida in recent days, obviously critical. How are you gauging voter enthusiasm so far? And how do you see the election playing out there?
REP. VAL DEMINGS (D-FL): Well Anderson is great to be back with you. And let me just say this, all of the enthusiasm from what I've seen, from what I've heard, and talking with voters is clearly in Biden's camp. I heard John say that Joe Biden could win without Florida. But I tell you what, we're working hard to make sure we give him plus one. And that is Florida. You've seen the response, as Vice President Biden talked to seniors, for example, and you've seen them, pull away from the President, and really what should be for his campaign and alarming rate. And so, while we're taking absolutely nothing for granted here on the ground, Vice President is certainly not taking anything for granted here on the ground. I think he's spending the time with the voters that he needs to. And we really feel good, although not relaxing too soon. We feel good about Vice President Biden's chances in the sunshine state.
COOPER: I want to play something that President Obama just said on a podcast hosted by his former aides responding to President Trump's call to indict him. Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FMR PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: The allegations are so absurd, that even Republican controlled committees, you know, looking into it, have dismissed them. And, you know, Attorney General Barr as dismissed them.
One of the central foundation stones of a democracy is the idea that you do not. You do not allow the politicization of the criminal justice system, the intelligence system, the military, right.
I'm disappointed that Republicans who know better have not checked him on this. And I think a very important question after the election, even if it goes well with Joe Biden, is whether you start seeing the Republican Party restore some sense of hearing norms that we can breach, because he's breached all of them. And they have not said to him, this is too far.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I wonder what your reaction that is? I mean, a lot of your Republican colleagues on Capitol Hill do know better. And, you know, if what President Trump had been doing -- if President Obama had been doing what President Trump has done, they were -- their heads would have exploded, and they would be, you know, calling for investigations and whatnot.
DEMINGS: Anderson, it is so good to hear President Obama's voice of reason. He's absolutely correct. Look, I worked in the criminal justice system for a number of years, I serve on the Intelligence Committee, serve on judiciary. I served as an impeachment manager. And what was quite disappointing as President Obama has said, that the Republicans never, never, I witnessed them never check President Trump on any of it. And so, it has been very, very disappointed but we know if we continue to work hard. We have just a couple of more weeks and I believe that there will be a change at the top.
[20:50:08]
But it has been. I tell you what, there were times I was just quite frankly shocked at the Republicans, my Republican colleagues lack of check in the President. I mean, he went as far as he wanted to go. And that was clearly disgraceful.
COOPER: Do you worry about Democrats being overconfident? Because I mean, you know, I love John King. And he's at what he everything he said is true. And he also said, you know, the President can still win. He -- there is a path for him. It's a difficult one. Same thing four years ago, there was -- it was a difficult electoral path for him, but he got it.
DEMINGS: Anderson, I do not believe that we are overconfident. I mean, you've seen the lines. Look at the lines in Georgia. Look at the lines in Texas. They're certainly not taking anything for granted. We know based on the last four years, how high the stakes are. Something else that President Obama said was basic competence can save lives. I believe that every person who is out there standing in those lines for hours waiting to vote, understand that we do not have even basic competence in the White House right now. So, we're not taking anything for granted. We're working hard for every voter that you see standing in those long lines. And I do believe that their sacrifice, their commitment to exercising their right to vote will pay off for them.
COOPER: Congresswoman Demings, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
DEMINGS: Thank you.
COOPER: As you saw John King, Pennsylvania critical to President Trump's chances of winning the election, our chief political correspondent Dana Bash traveled there to see if President Trump's successes there in 2016 was a one time upset or if he's on the road for repeat performance. What she discovered, when we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:40]
COOPER: As John King showed us earlier, Pennsylvania could be decider in the election again, both presidential candidates certainly know that. Our chief political correspondent Dana Bash, went to what's considered to be a Trump friendly part of the state. Here's what she found.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A line forms outside well before opening, waiting to enter the Trump house.
LESLI ROSSI, TRUMP HOUSE OWNER: I'm ready for the next group. Come on in.
BASH (voice-over): A Mecca of sorts for the President's supporters in southwest Pennsylvania, where Trump's record turnout four years ago helped deliver his surprise Pennsylvania victory in the White House.
ROSSI: Shirt or hat for person get a sign or flag.
BASH (voice-over): Leslie Rossi created the Trump House in 2016, where she pushed disaffected Democrats and never before voters to choose Trump.
ROSSI: We gave people a place to come to, to believe they could win. Hi, welcome to Trump House.
BASH (voice-over): Now, Trump supporters show up daily for swag and yard signs and help registering to vote.
SCOTT HARRER, TRUMP SUPPORTER: When Trump enter again, I'm 65 I think it's time to register.
BASH (on-camera): Have you not voted ever.
HARRER: No.
BASH (voice-over): Rural Westmoreland counties seen a surge in Republican registrations. They help with that here too.
RITA BLAIR, CHANGED PARTY FROM DEMOCRAT TO REPUBLICAN: Change my registration from Democrat to Republican.
BASH (on-camera): Why?
BLAIR: From what I've seen in the last past couple of years, I was ashamed to say I was a Democrat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a great honor to have you here (INAUDIBLE).
BASH (voice-over): But Joe Biden isn't giving up here, campaigning in Westmoreland County this month. Hillary Clinton didn't come here in the general election.
JILL BIDEN, JOE BIDEN'S WIFE: Not an area Democrats come in campaign very often.
BASH (on-camera): But you're here. Why?
BIDEN: I'm here because like I said, I we are not taking any vote for granted.
GINA CERILLI, WESTMORELAND COUNTY COMMISSIONER: They seem the past four years with a --
BASH (voice-over): Gina Cerilli is county commissioner in Westmoreland, PA. Ten years ago, she was Miss Pennsylvania in Donald Trump's Miss USA pageant. Now, she's an elected Democrat working to blunt Trump's advantage here.
CERILLI: In 2016, Donald Trump was a fresh face. He was new to politics. Everyone was excited. He made big promises, bring back jobs. But frankly, Donald Trump broke those promises.
BASH (voice-over): In small town Pennsylvania. Signs matter. Trumps are everywhere. big and bold. But Biden's are out there too.
CERILLI: When you see signs like this, it makes the Republicans and the Democrats that voted for Trump in 2016 realize I'm not alone.
BASH (voice-over): A big Biden challenge, his supporters are being COVID careful.
PHYLLIS FRIEND, HEAD, DEMOCRATIC WOMEN OF WESTMORELAND: Never did we think we would be meeting by Zoom.
BASH (voice-over): Phyllis Friend head of Democratic Women of Westmoreland County organizes from home. She's clear eyed about the Democrat's goal here in Trump country.
FRIEND: We can't win Pennsylvania forum, but we can add to the total numbers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, David, this is Joe and I volunteer with the Trump campaign. How you doing?
BASH (voice-over): As for Republicans, they never stopped traditional ways of getting out the vote, knocking on doors, walking in neighborhoods in masks and using a GOP data driven app to find and persuade voters.
BRITTNEY ROBINSON, PENNYSLVANIA RNC OPERATION: Depending on who that voter is. We're able to tailor that message at the door and on the phone to how we think we need to target that voter and turn them out.
BASH (voice-over): Given the President's struggles in the suburbs, boosting the vote here is critical for Trump.
(on-camera): How important is it for him to get his numbers even higher than it was four years ago?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do you think that we need to increase our voter turnout here for the President to offset some of what might be happening in the southeastern part of Pennsylvania.
BASH (voice-over): Back at the Trump house. Leslie Rossi shows us the log of visits from thousands of Trump supporters.
(on-camera): What do you think this year?
ROSSI: Oh, my numbers have tripled, tripled. Four years ago, my work was really hard here. I had to convince the voters to vote for the candidate. I had to convince them President Trump was the best choice for them. This time, I don't have to do any of that. They're all in.
BASH (voice-over): Whether enough are all in, could determine whether Trump wins Pennsylvania and a second term.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And Republicans we talked to in rural Southwest Pennsylvania were really candid, that they expect the President to do even worse in the suburbs in Pennsylvania that he did in 2016. And so, they feel a lot of pressure to deliver even bigger margins than ever if he has any chance of winning the keystone state again. Of course, Anderson that would be crucial to his path to victory.
COOPER: Yes. I'm glad a lot of people in the line waiting to get into that house were wearing mask.
BASH: A lot of mask there.
COOPER: Yes. Dana Bash, appreciate it. Thank you.
[21:00:00]
The news continues. Want to hand over Chris for "CUOMO PRIMETIME". Chris.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right, Coop, thank you very much. I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to "Primetime".
