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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Police Responding To Shooting At Boulder, Colorado Supermarket; Video Appears To Show Motionless People At Boulder Shooting; Awaiting Police News Conference On Boulder Shooting; Sources: Officer Killed In Colorado Store Shooting. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired March 22, 2021 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right. I appreciate both of you very much. And our breaking news continues now with Anderson.
[20:00:17]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. We are waiting to hear from authorities in Boulder, Colorado the scene of what is apparently the second mass shooting in less than a week. This time it happened at a supermarket in Boulder, Colorado.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't know. There is a shooter -- active shooter somewhere. Could be in the store.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he went in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went in the store.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went right down there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my god. Guys, we've got people down inside King Soopers. Look there is --
(GUNSHOT)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [Bleep].
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: There is still much we do not know at this moment. This video shows a motionless person on the scene suggesting potential victims. Denver station KCNC spoke with the father with family members who were inside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got the call from my daughter that my grandchildren and my son-in-law were -- walked into the pharmacy for him to get a COVID-19 shot and the shooter came in, shot the woman in front of them. They hid -- ran upstairs. They are hiding in a coat closet for the last hour and trying to stay in contact with my daughter. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were in communication this whole time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Through my daughter. They were texting hiding in the coat closet. Turned their phone off and we're going we're hiding, we're okay, you know. Don't call -- the phone would ring and give away their position.
Anyway, they are -- thank God they're fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, we are waiting to hear from authorities. There was supposed to be a press conference at 7:45, then we're told that that has been moved to the top of the hour which would be any time now.
CNN's Lucy Kafanov is on the scene for us tonight. So what is the latest?
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we're waiting to be briefed by the Boulder Police Commissioner and the Boulder District Attorney. I'm standing about 200 yards from that King Soopers Supermarket where this tragic situation unfolded today.
We still don't know exactly what took place. We know that at around 2:49 p.m. local time, Boulder Police officials tweeted a warning for people to avoid the area because of an active shooter.
We saw multiple agencies, local law enforcement responding to the situation. Video taken by one eyewitness appear to show motionless individuals on the ground, both outside of the store and inside of the store.
And authorities haven't really given us any information about suspects, shooters, victims. We simply don't know anything at the moment.
We did see one individual. He wasn't wearing a shirt. He wasn't wearing shoes. He had blood running down his leg. He was escorted by police in handcuffs and placed into an ambulance and then was taken away, but we simply don't know from officials who that individual was and what role he played in what unfolded today.
You know, another eyewitness told CNN that he heard something like eight gunshots fired. He said customers rushed to the back of the store, employees helped them get out. They all filed out in single file line through the back. People were helping one another.
He said, Boulder felt like a safe bubble, Anderson and that bubble burst tonight -- Anderson.
COOPER: The location of this store, it looks pretty large. Am I right in believing that it looked like that the -- you know, it looked like sort of a superstore.
KAFANOV: Yes, I mean, this is a huge shopping area. There's a Whole Foods behind me. There's a Tandoori Grill. There's an H&R block, all kinds of shops. And this was supposed to be a quiet Monday afternoon.
We were actually expecting a snowstorm here in Denver and in Boulder. So this would have been a good time to stock up on supplies. I think people were preparing for the weather. And instead, we're standing here and talking about the aftermath of yet another tragic shooting in America.
COOPER: Is it clear what time this started?
KAFANOV: It seems like it started somewhere around 2:30. One of the eyewitnesses said that he texted his wife at 2:30 to call him and two minutes later, he heard the gunshots. So around then, and at 2:49, Boulder Police tweeted for people to get -- stay away from the area.
COOPER: Excuse me. If this is an active shooter situation, oftentimes, the first minutes are critical in terms of the police response. Do we know much about the operations? Obviously, we're seeing a lot of heavily armed police there, just moments ago right now in this video that we're watching.
But do we know when police arrived at the scene or any of those details?
[20:05:00]
KAFANOV: I'm not sure exactly when police arrived to the scene. I can tell you when I arrived to the scene, which was probably about an hour and a half after this happened, I mean, you had law enforcement from all of the local areas on the ground responding.
You had Broomfield officers, people from Denver, people from Lewisville and the F.B.I. were here. We saw F.B.I. agents walking around, you know, we don't know if they were investigating or interviewing witnesses or what their role was.
So it's definitely a multiple agency response, but we simply don't know what time the police responded to this incident.
Again, footage taken by that one live streaming individual showed multiple bodies on the ground. It is extremely disturbing.
Some of the witnesses described hearing multiple gunshots fired. One heartwarming thing to hear from the witnesses who were inside, I mean, they're traumatized by this experience, but they did describe people helping one another. Younger people helping the elderly people, turning to one another to escape with their lives effectively in this tragic situation -- Anderson.
COOPER: Lucy Kafanov, thank you so much.
Perspective now from CNN contributor, former F.B.I. Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, also CNN law enforcement analyst, Charles Ramsey, former Philadelphia Police Commissioner and Washington, D.C. Police Chief.
Andrew, you know, when you look at an active shooter situations, I know -- I've read the F.B.I. profile of -- they've done reviews of basically all the active shooter situations that have occurred in this country and those first moments, those first six minutes or so are really critical.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Extremely critical, Anderson, it's -- you know, the major rethinking of how to respond to mass shooter active shooter events that took place after Columbine and after Virginia Tech and other disasters really led to a lot of reforms in the way police agencies think about and respond to these events.
So one of them and I think you saw it in one of the videos we saw earlier tonight, First Responders, so these are cops on the beat, not SWAT officers, but actual just police officers who would respond to a radio call. It's routine that they carry pretty impressive, high powered assault rifles in their vehicles, and it's for this purpose.
So if they get called to an active shooter scenario, they'll be -- they'll have the weapons they need to address a shooter who may very well be armed with the same sort of weapons, and they can just get that stuff out of their car and go inside if that's what's called for without even waiting for a tactical team to arrive.
COOPER: Yes, Chief Ramsey, you know, you're very familiar, obviously, of Washington and Philadelphia, I know at the Navy Yard shooting in Washington, D.C., the first officers on the scene, I think, if my memory serves me correct, there was a bicycle police officer, there was a military police officer, there was another police officer, they were the first ones who kind of banded together and entered the scene, even with, I think most of them had they had handguns initially.
Because it is so crucial, because most of the deaths that occur in these situations occur right away.
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, they don't last long. I mean, you know, these shootings take place very quickly. You have to get in there and get in there quickly. You may or may not have a long gun, but you go with what you have, and that's how they're trained. You form up and you go after and neutralize the threat.
And it puts officers in a very dangerous position. But then again, that's what policing is sometimes, so you do what you have to do to save lives.
COOPER: Do you know how -- I know a number of New York City -- a number of you know, big city law enforcement departments have revamped their training as Deputy Director McCabe was saying.
I know -- I've gone through a little bit of the New York City Police Department active shooter training, and it's very, you know, they have a model courtroom. They have a model classroom for -- every police officer has to go through this training.
Is that widespread now? I mean, in a police department, you know, small and large?
RAMSEY: Yes, I think it's pretty widespread, certainly in the large agencies, it is. I've been to New York's new police academy, and it's very sophisticated. Everyone doesn't have access to something like that.
We used to train in old school buildings for an example, where we would have active shooter drills take place there.
So yes, I mean, practice, practice, practice. And again, it involves those beat officers, the officers that are going to be the first to respond. It's not going to be the SWAT team. SWAT teams have to be assembled.
By the time they get there, usually, it's over. And so you know, it is those first officers that have to be the ones to make that entry and neutralize the threat. I am not taking anything away from SWAT, that's just the reality of how fast these things happen.
[20:10:07]
COOPER: Yes. I just want to remind our viewers, we're expecting a press conference really any minute now. We haven't really -- have not gotten updates from the police, any details of what actually occurred inside that store earlier today.
That was supposed to be at 7:45. It's now been pushed, it was pushed to eight o'clock. It's now obviously 8:10. So obviously, we'll bring that to you as soon as it goes live.
Director McCabe you were saying, you know how this really did change after Columbine. With Columbine, they basically roped off, tried to secure the area, which was the protocol at the time, waiting for the SWAT teams to assemble in -- and I guess that's based on the notion that things used to be hostage situations and that's less so now it's more of these active shooter situations.
MCCABE: That's right, Anderson, you know, the thought is the people are likely to die, as Chief Ramsey said very quickly while that shooter is still moving around. You know, classic police training was you get to the scene of a crime and you see that if there is something really out of the ordinary going on. There are shots fired, you hold, you take a position to cover and you call for backup.
And these active shooter positions of real situations have really blown that up. Right now, police officers are trained that when they respond to one of these situations. If it is a shooting in process, they have to get inside and try to save lives before and stop that carnage while it's in place.
The Chief said it's an incredibly dangerous part of the job, but it's something that they -- police officers around the country train for every day. The F.B.I. tries to provide that training to smaller kind of less resourced police departments. They have teams from Quantico that go out literally hundreds of times a year and train smaller state and local police agencies so that there's a consistent standard of response across the country, everybody's working off the same sheet of music. COOPER: You're seeing people coming out with hands raised just in the
video, but before this, that is a person who has been handcuffed and put into an ambulance, for unknown reasons.
In a situation like this, as you likely know, anybody who leaves the store has to leave with their hands up. Police really, you know, obviously need to make sure that whoever was involved in this is, is not just kind of walking away in in the crowd of people as they leave.
I also want to bring in Juliette Kayyem. Obviously, these are some disturbing images that we have seen now.
I am wondering, what do you make of a thing so far with the little we know?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I'll be brutally honest, I don't like delayed press conferences. We have not heard officially what is going on. This is, I think, the third delay since we've been monitoring this.
It probably means that they are collecting information. It means that the story is not simple. Unfortunately, we've seen this before. I remember I was with you during Walmart, I think in Texas, same thing.
So we brace ourselves for whatever news may come. And I do think that Colorado is smart and Boulder is smart to be waiting. They need to get this right from the outset, because there's already lots of speculation about motive and the kind of world we live in and what it's related to.
So that's the first thing. So, we will wait.
But as I said, I just don't think the storyline is simple at this stage that you can just, you know, sort of -- I think they are still collecting information.
The other is, as both the other gentlemen were saying, Andy and the Chief, that the surging of resources when something like this happens is relatively new and ironically, and sadly, it is new since Columbine, which is just down the road from where this happened.
The idea of standing back is no longer there, that the mass shooting incidents that we are all too familiar with, the public safety, Homeland Security has learned that lesson quickly that you are just going to surge resources.
So I don't know what to make of this much law enforcement in the sense that I would expect this much law enforcement regardless because everyone is going to surge resources.
Someone I talked to in Colorado confirmed that you know that there are staging areas around so it may look like it's a bigger crime scene than it actually is. And you want to surge those resources because you have to get people out alive and then you have to attend to the injured and honor the dead and contact their family. So a little bit concerned about the delays. I'll just -- you know, and
I've done this enough. I don't think I'm speculating. But a delayed press conferences is never a good thing.
COOPER: Yes. I know, as we said we're waiting for a press conference and we are waiting now from police.
Joining us now is Kevin Daly. He owns a pizzeria close to King Soopers. Kevin, I appreciate you being with us. I'm sorry, it's under these circumstances. Can you tell us what you heard or saw?
[20:15:08]
KEVIN DALY, PIZZERIA OWNER: Yes, thanks Anderson. We were here getting our restaurant out ready to reopen after being closed down for COVID. And we looked out the windows and to our parking lot, right where you're looking right now and saw a ton of police just pulling in really quickly.
We started to watch very briefly from the window then realized we should probably take cover so we went into the office. And then we found that live stream, and then realized it was really dangerous.
I called our team. We have an adjacent restaurant upstairs. So I called our team, told them to shelter in place and watched that live stream which was kind of busy.
COOPER: And around what time was it that you first realized something was up?
DALY: You know, I don't even know the time. I don't -- I don't remember.
COOPER: Okay.
DALY: It's kind of like -- it's one of those things where you think about everything that you can do better. But we're not really trained for this.
COOPER: Yes. Well, also in a situation like this, time sort of can play tricks with one. How far -- how close are you -- is your pizzeria to the King Soopers?
DALY: A few hundred feet.
COOPER: And have you ever seen anything like this in this area?
DALY: No, never. Boulder is, you know, Boulder is a different kind of community. We are a loving hippie community that believes in kindness. So we're pretty pro-gun -- pro anti-gun and gun right -- gun control. And it's not something we thought would ever happen here.
COOPER: And the King Soopers. It's -- I mean, it's a -- it looks like a huge store.
DALY: Yes, it is. Yes. I mean, we almost walked over for lunch around the same time. It's just -- it's really frightening. I wish we didn't have to keep dealing with this. I don't want to get political. But this shouldn't have to happen in America.
COOPER: Well, Kevin, I appreciate you talking to us. And again, I'm sorry it is under these circumstances. And I'm glad also that you're able to start to think about reopening and I wish you the best with that as well.
DALY: Thank you very much.
COOPER: Thank you.
DALY: Thank you.
COOPER: Andrew McCabe, Charles Ramsey, Juliette Kayyem back with us. Andrew, you were talking about the -- obviously your experiences with the F.B.I. We're told the F.B.I. is on the scene here. Why would that be at this stage?
MCCABE: Well, it's pretty standard, Anderson, with a massive law enforcement response like this. You're going to have some representatives from the local field office, which in this case is of course, Denver, are going to be out there. They're going to coordinate with the Incident Command, which is the collection of leadership there on the scene that kind of run the response to the incident.
The F.B.I. representatives are going to go and let them know that they're there and offer support of all different sorts, anything from tactical teams, SWAT teams, all the way to evidence collection teams that can be very, very helpful to a police department that then is going to have a massive crime scene, very complicated, potentially toxic crime scene on their hands.
So there's a lot that the F.B.I. can do in support of their local partners. In times like this, we try to get people out there right away.
COOPER: And Charles Ramsey, just in terms of operationally, what is the process that is occurring now? And based on their posture, it seems like there's not an active situation right now inside that store. What's the process that they are going through?
RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I don't -- in fact, I agree that it's probably not an active scene in terms of having a shooter that they're concerned about in the building. That's probably already been taken care of and cleared.
Step two is start to process the scene. You have to identify if you do have victims, you have to identify them. And you have to begin the slow process of processing that scene and collecting as much information as possible.
There's going to be a press conference, but they need information. And as far as how long it takes -- another reason why it's not a good sign, if this is a scene with a lot of casualties, let's say, you're going to have a mayor or other elected officials that will probably want to be there and sometimes that takes time to get them there and get them fully briefed.
There are a lot of things that happen behind the scenes when you have a scene like this. I agree with Juliette, this is something that is not going to be simple. This is more complicated.
And again, I think you're going to have one very large crime scene that they're going to have to meticulously section off and go through and that's going to take some time. That's probably what they're trying to organize and get a plan together in order to do that.
COOPER: Well, Juliette, I mean, obviously, you know, as the Chief was saying, there's a lot of things that go into even holding a press conference, giving out information at a time like this. They don't want anything that can affect the investigation.
But there are also, as you had referenced before, if there are fatalities, there are family members to contact. You don't want family members hearing something, you know, on television, and obviously people in this area know this has happened, this has been going on now for a number of hours.
[20:20:21]
COOPER: So there are already people who either have been informed if there are fatalities or injuries and there are people who are certainly worried about where their loved ones are right now, at this time and calling and phones are ringing.
KAYYEM: That's exactly right. So two parts of this now, so the first is, is going to be next of kin. That's the hard part. And if there are delays, it is because you've got to -- you have to get that right. You cannot get that wrong.
As a public safety official, the family needs to be notified by the right people about what happened. They will have to identify the body, wherever the body is.
The second is family unification and that's a different issue. This is a large market. I'm looking at the parking lot right now, there are lots of people there, and it's important that people are able to find their family members that may still be alive, or if there's potentially injuries, people may still be alive, but in hospitals.
So those two different processes are occurring. If there's next of kin phone calls occurring now, those will be -- they have to be complete. I can't be more clear here. They will have to be complete before you do a press conference because it's just -- you have to respect the family and the dead. So that's what's going on right now. It is both the family unification and the next of kin if there are next of kin phone calls about fatalities.
COOPER: It is such a horrible task and a task that too many police departments around the country have had to go through time and time again.
We're going to take a short break. Again, we are waiting to hear from authorities in Boulder, Colorado. We'll bring that press conference to you live when it happens. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:07]
COOPER: We're following breaking news: the shooting at a Boulder, Colorado supermarket and waiting to hear from authorities there. This is the video that -- some of the video we have seen as it happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't know. There is a shooter -- active shooter somewhere. Could be in the store.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he went in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went in the store.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went right down there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my god. Guys, we've got people down inside King Soopers. Look there is --
(GUNSHOT)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [Bleep].
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We know that the police response was considerable as you've seen in some images. We do not yet know about fatalities or injuries. We're expected to hear specifics from a press conference that was supposed to take place 45 minutes ago or so. We're now told it will be 8:30, so that's just about three minutes away from now.
Back with Charles Ramsey, Andrew McCabe and Juliette Kayyem.
Andrew, how much at this point is about the motive of the individual or individuals involved in this and how much is simply, you know, dealing with witnesses dealing with fatalities or injuries, if there are any, and just dealing with the crime scene itself.
MCCABE: Sure, so, initially, of course, it's about stopping the violence, right. And clearly, we seem to be beyond that point with this scene. So now, it's about kind of clearing the scene making sure there's no more shooting, you know, your tactical teams go through that location, like with a fine tooth comb. They search every inch for additional people, shooters, victims, that sort of thing.
Then you're trying to get aid to any victims who need to be -- you know, seek medical attention, that sort of thing. And then you start thinking about processing that crime scene.
So you are really a good ways away from really digging in on a thorough investigation of the shooter or shooters involved. And so over the days that follow, I suspect most of our conversations
will be about just that. Who is this person? What compelled them to take this incredibly violent act? What was that person's motivation? What does that motivation tell us about the type of incident we're looking at?
Is it a domestic violence situation? Is it just an incident of mental illness? Or is it potentially you know, something different, motivated by ideology, or grievance? Or, you know, certainly we've seen that with a lot of mass shootings in the past.
COOPER: Chief Ramsey, just in terms of what happens next, there'll be the press conference and I assume police will be on the scene all night long.
RAMSEY: Oh, yes. Yes, there'll be there all night long. This will be a situation where depending on the scene itself, and I mean, kind of speculating here a bit. But if it's any -- if it's a scene that has multiple fatalities, they will be holding that scene for quite a while until it's thoroughly processed.
So you can expect to see a fairly significant police presence over the next several hours if not the next day.
COOPER: And Juliette, who is it who does reach out to family members, who does try to kind of organize the reunions -- reunifications? You know, we saw some people seated down and had been given blankets and sheets to stay warm.
I don't know, we are not sure who they were. But who is it -- the police -- is that left the police department?
KAYYEM: Generally it would be and what you see here is, I think Andy was saying it was an Incident Commander structure has clearly been set up. That's when a lot of different agencies come together. And they sort of have to form under a hierarchical process, so that there's an Incident Commander who is leading that. That's like the Boulder Police officer, senior leader.
[20:30:18]
And then there's just different pieces to it. I know this is for lay people this may look complicated. It's actually quite simple. There's just different, what we call verticals or divisions. So, there's people who are, you know, ensuring that, that we still don't have an active shooter incident, there are people involved with the investigation, people involved with ambulance and health -- and those that might be injured. And there will probably be there is like there is a community outreach aspect to it. And that would be next of kin.
So it's a, you know, this is we choose this, I will I'll be clear now, we choose this in the sense of, we have to do this because of the number of active shooters in this country that we had to get better at it in terms of the stance, right in terms of this incident command, because too many people were dying by gun violence. We choose this as a nation because we have so many guns. And so, therefore public safety officials and those who support them, unfortunately, are getting better each time in responding.
COOPER: I just want to check in with our Lucy Kafanov in Boulder, who has been covering this. We believe the press conference is going to take place any moment, though. I assume you're in the area where the press conference is, it doesn't look like there's much happening.
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, we've been waiting to be briefed by the Boulder police commissioner and the Boulder district attorney for more than 45 minutes now, we're not sure what's behind the delay. I think one of your guests made a good point that it's never a good sign when these kinds of press conferences get delayed.
It's probably an indication that it's a complicated story. And it does seem to be a complicated story. We haven't heard anything formal or official from authorities since these events took place. We haven't even heard that the act of shooting is has concluded.
I mean, I could tell you we're about 200 yards from that King Snoop -- Soopers location. Very heavy law enforcement presence there, there's SWAT teams, there's local police, there's fire officials. There's FBI agents we've seen on the ground. You know, cars and lights as far as the eye can see.
This entire shopping mall in it is a very large shopping area here in Boulder has been cordoned off. The officers told me that most of the stores were shut down for people safety and protection. You can actually see employees inside some of these shops. They haven't all left to go home yet. So it's still in an active scene.
But yes, no details on who the shooter might be. If there's more than one shooter, we know that from the video that's emerged that there are multiple people who sadly lost their lives today. But we don't have details on who they were or what the circumstances were.
We know that at around 2:49 p.m. local time, the Boulder police tweeted a warning for people to stay away from the area because of the reports of an active shooting. We saw footage from the eyewitness who showed motionless people, bodies on the ground outside in the parking lot and also inside the store. At least one eyewitness who spoke to CNN said that he texted his wife at about 3:30 p.m. -- pardon me 2:30 p.m. local time.
And two minutes later, he started hearing the gunfire. He said they all ran, they ran into the back the employees were helping the customers fall out. People were leaning on one another helping each other to escape for their lives. And, you know, he said that he went to the supermarket to buy a bag of chips and a soda and nearly lost his life. He was in shock Anderson as all of us are.
COOPER: And is it clear to you people who were in the store have they all been taken out of the store?
KAFANOV: We've seen footage of individuals escorted from the store. We can only imagine. OK, there's some sort of some sort of an announcement possibly letting us know that they're going to be delayed even more. After your question. We know that people were removed from the store. I don't believe that there's individuals inside yet.
And I know that the eyewitnesses who were speaking to CNN were kind of kept in that parking lot area, I believe that they were probably being debriefed by, you know, police and other officials on the ground and probably in shock and, you know, probably had to be interviewed, although I don't know we weren't able to access that area, but I don't believe those individuals would be in the store right now.
I'm looking away from the camera because I'm trying to figure out what's happening to this press conference. And it looks like it's being delayed a little bit more again. And again, we desperately need this press conference to take place because we just don't have any facts from officials at the moment. Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. We'll be waiting for that Lucy Kafanov. We'll check back in with you back with you shortly.
[20:35:08]
Andrew McCabe, the variety of police departments that are responding and that we are seeing and we're seeing -- I'm assuming there are some sort of SWAT units, they're in, you know, military almost garb. Others are in more standard, you know, police uniforms. Is it just calls go out and anybody responds?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, it's impossible to keep information about an incident like this kind of close hold, right. So it spreads through the law enforcement and local law enforcement community very quickly. And typically, you we have a situation that we refer to as self-deployment.
So, often, officers from surrounding departments and other agencies, federal agencies will just go to the scene. And it is with the best intentions in mind, they want to be there to help, they want to be there to whether it's escort victims and witnesses or actually help with tactical issues and stuff. But sometimes it can create more of a problem than it solves.
I remember in the Navy Yard shooting, they had so many D.C. law enforcement and folks came in that it was hard to get access to the scene. Similarly, in the Aurora, Colorado shooting in 2012, one of the problems they had was they couldn't get the ambulances to the movie theater to evacuate the wounded because the area was so flooded with police vehicles. So, it gets very crowded at these crisis scenes, you know, good intentions, but sometimes causes a problem.
COOPER: Yes. You know, Chief Ramsey, one of the things that has now been quite well documented in New York and scene in New York are, and I assume they still have it our I think what they used to call Hercules teams, which were heavily armed SWAT teams that were always on duty, and would be -- it would appear at various parts of the city and would kind of move around the city throughout the day, just being a visual presence, but also already on duty and able to respond if there was some sort of active shooter situation.
Obviously, a lot of cities don't have the resources where they can have SWAT units that are mobilized at all times.
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, that's true. I mean, New York is an exception, because they're so large, obviously, they have the resources to do that sort of thing. Many large departments do have SWAT teams that are available around the clock.
But oftentimes, especially in the early morning hours, they would have to call in some additional support, depending on the nature of the call and the scene. So, it depends on the jurisdiction here, around Boulder, Colorado, they may have MO (ph) use in place, mutual aid agreements, when something like this takes place.
But Andrew said something is very important. And that is that one of the challenges you have when you have a situation like that is having an over response to it, where it makes it very difficult to manage the scene because you have too many people showing up. You need the right people there to be able to do the situation, not just necessarily anybody who's close by.
So initial response, yes, you want to get people there. But at some point, a supervisor has to take control, started making sure that you have a way in and out for ambulances and heavy equipment like SWAT teams and all that sort of thing. They have to really organize that see. Otherwise, it'll get clogged up in a hurry.
COOPER: We're told now that the press conference will be about two minutes or so from now. So obviously, we'll continue to bring that to you live when that happens.
Juliette, just in terms of the length of time here. I mean, a reporter was saying Lucy Kafanov was saying that 2:49 p.m. local time, which is 3:49 on the east coast. That was when the police were tweeted out, that people should stay away from the area. So this has been going on now for almost five, something has been going on there for at least five hours.
KAYYEM: Right. So and I've been monitoring their social media, they were really fast and really good police departments have gotten excellent at this, of both acknowledging that something is happening. So they will often say we're hearing reports of an active shooter stay clear.
But also not disclosing anything that may be false, right? Because at that stage you don't know what's going on. So I think Colorado -- I think the police department was really smart and just getting out there quickly. Just want people to get away from the crime scene.
Where we could use more information would be whether there continues to be an active threat. I think we have to assume no because there doesn't appear to be. And whether a suspect is in custody. We know these cases often are don't involve just one person. So we should -- if that is true, that should also be disclosed. So, this is a long time, this is -- I just saw sitting, you know, I'll say it again, this is a long time.
[20:40:23] And so, we do have to be prepared that the news, it will, you know, will be dramatic. And also it means that the investigation is likely to be long in terms of who the person is, if it's the person we saw, what were motives, where did they get the gun?
You had one eyewitness say it was a COVID vaccine facility, things like that, that are raised by eyewitnesses that you just want to be able to shoot down or to support because we need to know motive at the stage. Or if someone was saying earlier or workforce issue.
COOPER: Yes. And Chief Ramsey that's obviously what was, frankly, we just have no idea of what the motive is at this point.
KAYYEM: Yes.
RAMSEY: No, and it'll be a while before you do know what the motive is more than likely, unless it's a domestic related or disgruntled employee or something of that nature. You know, right, now, of course, the most important thing is to make sure if you do have casualties to make sure that families notify no one wants to see anything like that on television.
Obviously, you depending on what they're waiting for, you might have some pretty high-level officials coming into the scene to be part of the press conference. There's a reason why there's delay is as long as it is. But one thing is that we will get a timeline laid out, that's probably one thing that they'll do right at the very beginning, or near the beginning is lay out the timeline when it the first call come in, when did the police arrive?
All that sort of thing. Is the shooter in custody? Is the shooter dead? You know, are there casualties? If so, how many? I mean all of those kinds of things will be part of what this press conference will unveil?
COOPER: You know, Andrew in reading the FBI study of active shooters in this country, it's one of the interesting things that stands out is how in some cases, and again, we don't know what the situation is here. But that in some of the active shooter situations we've seen over time, oftentimes, people not only want attention, but they want -- they learn from previous active shooting situations, they actually study previous active shooting situations.
MCCABE: That's absolutely right. And you know, Columbine is probably the best example of that. Columbine has had this outsized, inspirational effect on many, many people, but certainly to include some folks who have gone on to commit shootings. We also know that other mass shooters like (INAUDIBLE) in the Netherlands has been cited by mass shooters here in the United States, and also the Christ Church. Mosque shootings were a inspiration to the shooter, the Walmart shooter in Texas two years ago.
So they, in this, you know, ever interconnected world where many times mass shooters are able to post manifestos or writings or thoughts about their, you know, views on the world and their grievances and everything else. Those things can oftentimes be very have a lot of significance and an inspirational factor to other troubled extremists who decided to pursue the same sort of violence.
So it's really we've seen a direct line of kind of, I don't want to say causation, but certainly inspiration between many of these events.
COOPER: You know, Juliette, I've talked to many people who have lost loved ones in situations, in active shooting situations, and they talk about the feeling that they get every time there is another one that they hear about. And it instantly brings them back to where the situation when they lost their loved one. And there is this sadly, this family of community of people in this country who have lost people in this way?
KAYYEM: Yes, it's an American story, right? I mean, these mass shootings connect people in a way that other countries don't experiences. I think it's -- if you live here, it is hard to and you're American, it's hard to grasp sometimes how unique our gun culture is. And the consequences of that not getting into any constitutional debates.
But the consequences of that is this through line in American -- in modern American history that links these families and these victims, but also are first responders, police officers, their families across all of these shootings every single one and that is as I said, that's uniquely American and not in a good way.
[20:45:15]
COOPER: There is -- yes.
KAYYEM: Yes.
COOPER: Again, we are waiting this press conference, which again, I'm not going to give any time expectation because it does keep getting moving back.
KAYYEM: Yes.
COOPER: There is the sense clearly that there has been loss of life and we are waiting to hear the details and obviously authorities want to make sure that any family members have been notified of such.
And Chief Ramsey in terms of what needs to be learned -- I mean, what are the questions, you know, as a as a former police chief that you want kind of to hear and have answered at this stage?
RAMSEY: Well, I mean, very basic, obviously questions about the shooter is he and cause easy not do we have on my deed yet. You know, I would like to know the timeline have that laid out, so we have that question answered. And also then about the victims if there are in fact victim and unfortunately, I believe there will be victims.
You may not get names I doubt if you'll get names, but at least numbers and maybe even demographics in terms of sex, and so forth. But I don't really look to get too much in terms of specifics around any victims at this point in time. And that's because again, you have extended family and others that need to be notified. But the shooter was in a car you know, that they if they got anything there. Does he ever have a house or an apartment, you'd be getting search warrants. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that's going to take place as s this progresses right now, but you'll get basic information.
COOPER: Joining us now by phone is Jessica Crumby. Jessica, yes, thank you for being with us. Can you just tell us what you saw her or heard?
JESSICA CRUMBY, WITNESS: Yes. So I was in auspicious tattoo which is, you know, a little bit by King Soopers and laying on the table and all of a sudden we just heard like pop, pop crack, crack. And we all kind of stuff what we were doing and we heard some glass shattering so we went outside of the shop and I saw that this yoga studio to the right of us their window looks like it had been shot in.
And people were kind of, you know, running out of King Soopers everybody's looking that way. And then we hear the sirens coming and like so many police officers pulled into that place and came out with their guns like SWAT came in there. They just started kind of sweeping the place, telling everybody to get back in wherever they were locked the doors stay away from the windows so that's what we did.
COOPER: And I know sometimes it's hard to remember kind of time. But from the time that you heard the shots to seeing the police come in, what sort of timeframe are you talking about?
CRUMBY: Maybe five minutes because right when the shots came I had texted my sister who was at a restaurant downstairs and was telling her to get back to the shop because something weird is going on and then I heard on the phone with her I heard the sirens already. So, it was pretty dang quick.
COOPER: Do you know what time you texted what time it -- where you heard the shots?
CRUMBY: Yes. Let's see. Yes, I texted her at 2:32 p.m. and I was like something wild is happening outside, you know, come in -- come back into the shop now, so.
COOPER: So at 2:32 that's when you've heard the initial shots and about how many shots did you hear in total?
CRUMBY: I think it was four and they both sound one was like a pop, pop and then the other one was like a crack, crack. So, I'm thinking there are two different guns but not sure obviously.
COOPER: And the shots you said the -- I'm sorry I don't know the location well enough. You talked about the tattoo parlor where you were at the yoga studio and the end the store itself. How far is the tattoo parlor? Is yhe tattoo parlor right next to the yoga store?
CRUMBY: Yes, those two are right next to each other and then we're probably like, yes, like 200 yards from King Soopers at that point.
COOPER: OK. But it looked like that the window of the yoga place had been hit.
CRUMBY: Yes, because we heard that. And then we saw like shadows running because the window is opaque, so you can't really see through it. You can just see shadows and stuff. So we saw two shadows run to the left and then to the right. So it looks like they're going behind the building. And we're all kind of like what's going on. So that's when we went outside, saw the window and then the cop started showing up.
COOPER: And there was a glass on the ground from the window. So it was a new break.
CRUMBY: Yes, there was glass on the ground.
COOPER: OK. So, it's unclear to you what it was that caused, the shattered window whether it was an individual who may have been involved in an incident inside the store or something else.
[20:50:07]
CRUMBY: Yes. The other studio is actually closed right now because they had a pipe burst. So, but we're not sure if it was related to the actual shooting. That's just what got our attention.
COOPER: Right. And what's the -- where are you now? Are you still on the scene?
CRUMBY: No, we were able to leave. We were locked in there till about, so let's see the time of it, 6:50. So probably about 5:45 is when they kind of let us go, they came to the door and said, how many people are in there, we'll get you guys out of there. And about an hour later that the cops started leaving. And then we got from like Twitter and stuff, we saw that they were heading to 17th Street to apparently, I don't know if it was related to the shooting or not, but they were sending SWAT there. So.
COOPER: And you said it was about, you know, within a five-minute range that the police -- that you heard sirens after the shots?
CRUMBY: Yes, definitely.
COOPER: Well, Jessica, I really appreciate your time. I'm glad you're OK. And I appreciate you talking to us as we're trying to kind of piece together information on this.
CRUMBY: Yes, no problem at all. Call us if there's anything else.
COOPER: All right, you take care Jessica Crumby, thanks so much.
Andrew, in terms of what else is going on? You know, Chief Ramsey was mentioning the idea of, you know, getting search warrants, things like that, once that's once they have ID anybody who might be involved, then they have to get go through the legal process to get search warrants to visit their place of residence.
MCCABE: That's exactly right. And again, that's something that you're going to do with a great deal of caution. I'll draw your attention --
COOPER: Sorry, Andrew. I'm sorry. Let me just to interrupt. According to sources, what we know is one police officer has been killed in the store shooting. We don't have any details on that. But that is that is the newest information that that we have. Oh, let's go through the press conference right now.
KERRY YAMAGUCHI, COMMANDER, BOULDER POLICE: -- shared, we had a very tragic incident today, here at the King Soopers. There was loss of life. We have multiple people who were killed in this incident. And I am sorry to have to report that one of them was a Boulder police officer. During this trying time, I would ask the media and the public to honor the privacy of the officer's family and his co-workers here at the police department.
I will also share that we got tremendous support from our fellow law enforcement agencies, both in Boulder County, with some of them you see behind me, the FBI, ATF and other Denver Metro agencies. Without that quick response, we don't know if there would have been more loss of life. I can share with the public today or this evening, that there is no ongoing public threat that we do have a person of interest in custody. That person was injured during the incident and is being treated for the injuries.
MICHAEL DOUGHERTY, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, BOULDER COUNTY: Good evening. My name is Michael Dougherty. I'm the district attorney for Boulder County. This is a tragedy and a nightmare for Boulder County. And in response, we have cooperation and assistance from local state and federal authorities.
This will very much be a coordinated effort and will stand united in supporting the victims and their families to ensure that justice is done. It's a very early stage in the investigation as you've heard, and we have a lot of work to do. But we'll be giving out more information as that becomes available.
And as we nail down the facts here as Commander Yamaguchi said there is an individual in custody currently with multiple victims. And we'll be doing everything we can to fight for them and their families to make sure that we reach the right and just outcome. Thank you.
KELLY MCGANNON, SPOKESPERSON, KING SOOPERS: Good evening, I'm Kelly McGannon, spokesperson for King Soopers. Our hearts are broken over this senseless act of violence. The entire King Soopers family offers our thoughts, prayers and support to our associates, our customers and first responders who so bravely responded to these acts of violence. We're working in full cooperation with local law enforcement. And we'll be deferring all questions to them for the integrity of the emphasis litigation. Thank you.
[20:55:04]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We'll take a few questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commander, can you tell us what happened? YAMAGUCHI: So as has already been mentioned -- as has already been mentioned, we're very early in the investigation. As Deon shared that, we responded here, officers are here within minutes of the initial 911 calls and entered the building very quickly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know any possible motive for this?
YAMAGUCHI: Very early in the investigation, we don't have any details that I can share at this point. There will be additional information released as it's gathered, and it's appropriate to release that that will come from the Boulder Police Department.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) 3:00 today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us how many people have died?
YAMAGUCHI: We don't -- we're very early in the investigation. We are still processing the scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know if the shooter said anything as the shooter entered the building?
YAMAGUCHI: That will be part of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened on (INAUDIBLE).
YAMAGUCHI: That was unrelated, we believe to this incident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Only one shooter?
YAMAGUCHI: That's -- we're still investigating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are there injuries in addition to those who were killed?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were there injuries in (INAUDIBLE)?
YAMAGUCHI: So at this point, the only injured party we are aware of significant injury was the suspect. We know of no other serious injuries at this point.
(CROSSTALK)
YAMAGUCHI: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) no relationship between the gunman and the people that were shot?
YAMAGUCHI: That will be part of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you multiple fatalities, can you tell us how many?
YAMAGUCHI: No, we don't know that. That's -- they're still processing the scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there more than five?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't know how many people (INAUDIBLE) the time.
YAMAGUCHI: Don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many are at the hospital? (INAUDIBLE).
YAMAGUCHI: Don't know how many are at the hospital currently. I know for sure there is one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commander was there video of the video cameras that might have to take what happened?
YAMAGUCHI: That's all going to be part of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does this man have any connection at all to King Soopers or any of the workers?
YAMAGUCHI: I'm not aware of that? I don't know. That's part of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was your first call of a man and an active shooter in the parking lot? Then it moved inside.
YAMAGUCHI: So, I haven't had a chance to review any of those calls. And so, I can't tell you what order things were reported to us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this man wearing a military gear?
YAMAGUCHI: I'm sorry. I got two questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Military style. Was he wearing military style gear during this?
YAMAGUCHI: Don't know, that'll be part of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
YAMAGUCHI: I don't have information on that. As I said, our crime scene folks have just very recently entered the crime scene to start processing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the shirtless guy, the person of interest? The shirtless man who was seen taken out on (INAUDIBLE)?
YAMAGUCHI: Since I would be speculating who you're talking about, I can't confirm that. I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commander, not -- don't be critical. But it's been more than three hours since (INAUDIBLE). You can't tell us how many people were dead?
YAMAGUCHI: I don't have that information right now. That'll be part of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the suspect at Boulder community?
DOUGHERTY: So if I could just interject one, one moment, there's a lot of investigation already underway. A lot of things are being realized as the crime scenes being processed, including the number of victims, which is known to police investigators.
But I want to stress that victim's family members are still being notified, we're being really sensitive to the victim's family. So, I appreciate Commander Yamaguchi not giving out more information at this point. But even for the facts of which was certain those conversations are going to happen with the families first is that those conversations are now taking place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we know there are some --
DOUGHERTY: We're going to be talking to the families first and then given out more information.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the connection (INAUDIBLE).
DOUGHERTY: OK, but Boulder Police Department's going to be giving out that information. I recognize the need to get the information out as soon as possible. I do. But I also recognize that we have one suspect in custody, we're going to ensure that justice is done.
And to do that, we're going to make sure we have the facts certain and understood before we start sharing them with the media in that public. That's going to happen. That's going to happen in the next couple hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe the suspect?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the sense and why he did what he did?
DOUGHERTY: I do not have any information as to motive at this point. It's really early in the investigation. But --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)?
DOUGHERTY: I cannot do that at this point. But I could promise you the Boulder Police Department is going to be releasing more information in the next few hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our families who might be impacted by this may be looking for being notified (INAUDIBLE).
DOUGHERTY: So that CU Police Department is held thing with family members that may have questions about loved ones and Chief Jokerst will be out provide more information for family members to contact the CU Police Department for information.
