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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Facing An Ouster From House Leadership, Cheney Says GOP At Turning Point In New Op-Ed; Facebook Oversight Board Upholds Former President Trump's Suspension; Trump And His Legal Team Approached About Giuliani's Mounting Legal Bills; GOP-Driven Audit Of 2020 Ballots In One Arizona County; The Rise Of Rep. Elise Stefanik; Police: Asian-American Sisters Attacked With Piece Of Cinder Block At Liquor Store. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired May 05, 2021 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But when you think about the turmoil that was here, just think about an eight-year-old girl who was also shot during the protests, a lot of people asking questions about what's next? They want to know what's going to happen in this case moving forward. Still a lot of questions -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Ryan, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
And thanks to all of you. Anderson starts now.
[20:00:21]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. There is breaking news in the battle between Congressman Liz Cheney and just about everyone else in what is currently called the Republican Party.
In a new op-ed in "The Washington Post," Cheney, who may soon be removed from her Republican leadership position for speaking out against the former President's lies and violent rhetoric, writes that her party is at a turning point, quote: "The question before us now is whether we will join Trump's crusade to de-legitimize and undo the legal outcome of the 2020 election, with all the consequences that might have."
Later she writes, " ... while embracing or ignoring Trump's statements might seem attractive to some for fundraising and political purposes that approach will do profound long-term damage to our party and our country."
Cheney pulls no punches, not against the former President, not against the leader of her party in the House, Kevin McCarthy, who according to two sources, who spoke to CNN has been in contact with the former President about her removal.
In the op-ed, she mentions this comment that McCarthy made a week after the riot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): The President bears responsibility for
Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Cheney cites that line, and immediately afterwards, she remarks, "Now McCarthy has changed his story." And that is absolutely true, he has.
In one week in January, he went from saying the President bears responsibility to quote, "I don't believe he provoked," much like he is now supporting Cheney's ouster, after one saying of her quote, "This Republican Party is a very big tent, everyone is invited in."
Cheney ends the op-ed this way saying, "History is watching. Our children are watching. We must be brave enough to defend the basic principles that underpin and protect our freedom and our democratic process. I'm committed to doing that no matter what the short-term political consequences might be."
Now, the op-ed comes the same day that Facebook's Oversight Board issued highly anticipated guidance about whether the former President can use his Facebook and Instagram accounts again.
And we're going to have an in-depth discussion of that decision by Facebook later in the broadcast, but we want to mention one item in their decision that relates directly to what Congressman Cheney wrote about how the former President's language provoked the violence, something McCarthy and many other Republicans choose to ignore or explain away.
The Facebook Board repeatedly refers to the January 6th riot and writes the former President, quote: " ... created an environment where serious risk of violence was possible." And that Facebook's decision to suspend the former President's accounts was justified, quote, "given the seriousness of the violations and the ongoing risk of violence."
And no surprise, the President was not happy -- former President was not happy saying that Facebook and other social media companies are a total disgrace, and while you think about that, look what the former President wrote about Liz Cheney and the election not long after writing that about Facebook, and before we show it to you, just remember that Facebook cited the quote, "ongoing risks of violence" in their rationale.
Here's what the former President wrote. "Warmonger Liz Cheney continues to unknowingly and foolishly say that there was no election fraud in the 2020 presidential election. Had Mike Pence referred the information on six states back to state legislatures and had gutless and clueless Minority Leader Mitch McConnell fought to expose all the corruption that was presented at the time with more found since, we would have had a far different presidential result."
Of course, the Congresswoman is correct, and the former President marinating in Mar-a-Lago continues to lie.
Mike Pence could not have changed events. He could not have referred the information on six states back to state legislatures. There was no legitimate information to refer, no massive corruption discovered then or since.
The Facebook Oversight Board referred today to quote, "An unfounded narrative of electoral fraud and persistent calls to action by the former President." It is exactly that kind of language that got him suspended from Facebook in the first place and is exactly what he continues to spout.
Perhaps you might want to read a letter addressed to Congress today written by a D.C. police officer who was there in January 6th. The police officer who was brutalized by the crowd.
The police officer writes, quote, "I struggle daily with the emotional anxiety of having survived such a traumatic event, but I also struggle with the anxiety of hearing those who continue to downplay the events of that day, and those who would ignore them altogether with their lack of acknowledgement. The indifference shown to my colleagues and I is disgraceful."
Perspective now former chief political analyst Gloria Borger and former Republican Congresswoman and CNN political commentator, Mia Love.
So Gloria, Liz Cheney, you say she is making this a matter of conservatism versus cultism. Does that actually resonate, though? I mean, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of people in the Republican Party right now who care?
[20:05:00]
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: No, I think she is on the short end here as far as congressional Republicans, particularly in the House are concerned and the base of the Republican Party.
This is going to cost her politically tremendously. She won by a wide margin when she ran last time. If she decides to run again, she is going to have a serious primary and you can be sure that Donald Trump will be campaigning against her.
So she does this at great personal political risk, but as you point out in this op-ed, she did not pull her punches. I mean, she referred to -- and let me say this, the dangerous anti-democratic Trump cult of personality.
That's not going to win her any friends among those Republicans who support Donald Trump.
COOPER: Congresswoman Love, what do you make of what's become of your former colleagues in the House?
MIA LOVE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's absolutely crazy and here is the funny thing, they're not even seeing what she actually does for the Republican Party.
What she is pretty much saying is Republicans out here who disagree with what the former President was saying, who are absolutely, just really upset, and very -- they can't believe what happened on January 6th, it's okay to be a Republican, and be -- and not be okay with this.
So I just don't understand why they are not -- why Republicans aren't embracing that she has this view, which is actually the correct view that this President incited violence and there is something wrong with that.
And by the way, let me mention, he is the former President. I don't understand what the allegiance is. Their conference allegiance should be to Liz Cheney, who is still there, and they should be focused on policy issues, because they've got a lot of material to go with.
COOPER: Yes, I mean, Gloria, that's the thing. They are really not talking about policy, because now the Republican Party has no platform, because they chose not to, because they decided whatever Trump decides to talk about is the platform.
BORGER: Right, and so -- but they're blaming Liz Cheney for this. They are saying that she is taking them off message. I mean, I've spoken to republicans this week, who say to me, oh, it's not about what she is saying about the insurrection. She is allowed to believe that. But the real problem is, why she is annoying us in the Republican conference, is that she is taking us off our anti-Biden message.
But as you point out, they haven't spent an awful lot of time talking about policy. They've been talking about culture war, and they've been talking about Liz Cheney and kicking her out of the leadership.
So I don't see them talking about policy a lot, either, but they'd like to blame Liz Cheney for getting them off message.
COOPER: So Congresswoman Love, I mean, what happens to the Republican Party? Is there -- you know, is there I mean, there was once talk about a big tent, there's been talk about course correction for years, but I mean, Elise Stefanik, as G.O.P. Caucus Chair, if she indeed gets Cheney's post that certainly only ratchets up the cult of Trump.
LOVE: Okay, so this is really interesting, right? We're talking about Elise Stefanik who is a great friend, who I absolutely support, because she has done a great job in getting more Republican women in the House of Representatives.
So she -- I mean, they are pitting these two women up against each other. And let me just say that if you look at the American Conservative Union, if you look at Heritage Action, Liz Cheney has a much more conservative record than Elise Stefanik has.
You're talking about 78 to 44 percent, and then 80 percent to 48 percent. I mean, there's a wide margin there. And so I think it's really interesting because the Republican Party is one, going to have to figure out whether they're going to define themselves by their conservative policies, or by whether they support Trump or not.
And I'm telling you, they're not going to make any headway, especially with the bourbon women, if they continue to pin these women up against each other. It's actually pretty offensive to me.
COOPER: Gloria, Liz Cheney wants a 9/11-style commission focused solely on the insurrection. Kevin McCarthy does not. Our Jamie Gangel reported last night that he may not want to be called to testify about his phone calls with President Trumpet before such a commission.
You know, they are talking about having it be about you know, Antifa and Black Lives Matter, A wider focus other than what happened on the 6th. Beyond that though, what's the resistance among Republicans to this commission?
BORGER: Well, again, they don't want to talk about what happened on January 6th. They don't want to get subpoenaed to talk about what happened on January 6th. McCarthy doesn't want to get subpoenaed to talk about it.
They would rather talk about democratic socialism and they feel that, as they call it, and they feel that this will get them kind of off message. If they could broaden it, and Cheney says in her piece, don't broaden it, you've got to keep it to what happened on that day.
If they could broaden it and talk about Antifa and Black Lives Matter, then they could be a little bit more on message.
But if you narrow it to January 6th, they can't. So they're opposed to what she proposes.
[20:10:11]
BORGER: Look what she did tonight in this op-ed was basically say to Republicans, I know you're going to kick me out of the leadership. I know you don't like what I have to say, but I'm a true conservative who stands for the Constitution, so I'm going to do what I have to do, and you're just going to have to live with yourself.
COOPER: Gloria Borger and Congresswoman Mia Love, appreciate it. Thank you.
I'm joined now by "Washington Post" columnist, Michael Gerson, who spent a decade on Capitol Hill as a congressional staffer for Republicans and also worked in the White House and were on three Republican presidential campaigns.
Michael, thanks for being with us. I want to read another portion of Congresswoman Cheney's new op-ed in "The Washington Post," she writes about the former President's election lies in part saying, "Trump repeats these words now with full knowledge of exactly this type of language provoked violence on January 6th, and its Justice Department and multiple Federal Judges have suggested there's good reason to believe that Trump's language can provoke violence again.
Trump is seeking to unravel critical elements of our constitutional structure that make democracy work, confidence and the result of elections and the rule of law. No other American President has ever done this."
I mean, you served in the Bush-Cheney administration, did you ever think your part of your country would be at this juncture?
MICHAEL GERSON, COLUMNIST, "THE WASHINGTON POST": No, it's a very important op-ed for a very specific reason. The Minority Leader is saying that this is a political matter and Cheney is saying that this is a constitutional matter, a matter of the rule of law and that can't be papered over, it can't be ignored, it can't be forgotten.
We do have one party that refuses to accept results it doesn't like from national elections. That is a recipe for Democratic disorder and that is the point she is making. She is making a substantive point. While all the other -- all of her colleagues seem to be making political points.
COOPER: You wrote a recent op-ed in "The Washington Post" saying, knowingly repeating a lie, an act of immorality is now the evidence of Republican fidelity. That is extraordinary. I mean, it's absolutely true and it is extraordinary that we're in this situation now.
I mean, anybody who cares about a functioning democracy should want there to be two functioning parties that are fact based and can argue all they want over big ideas, but they have to agree on certain basic concepts of what is true and what is not.
GERSON: Yes, and it's not just a disagreement within the Republican Party. There is there's a purge going on, a purge of rationality, a purge of responsibility, a purge of moral seriousness that is taking place across the party in many states.
So I think that -- I think Cheney has said in this op-ed, I'm going to be leaving the opposition to that purge, whether I'm in this office or not and I think she is going to play that role. They're not going to silence her. But ultimately, it's going to be up to Republican voters to not reward this kind of, you know, behavior by the majority of the Republicans in silencing opposition.
COOPER: You know, difficultly though is, you know, there was a poll, I think it was in April for CNN, 70 percent of Republican voters said they agreed, believed, you know, the election lie.
GERSON: No, that's absolutely true, and I think there were on January 6, a lot of sincere people in that crowd who believed the election lie. The real responsibility here is people like McCarthy, you know, he had a glimmer of recognition of the truth in the immediate aftermath of January 6th, and then he quickly, you know, lost that.
He obviously knows what the truth is and he is choosing to suppress it for what he thinks are important political reasons, but it is, it's an act of irrationality. You know, basing a party on a lie, a founding lie and that I think, is trouble for the party in the future.
COOPER: President Biden weighed in today in the Republican schism, I just want to play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It seems as though the Republican Party is trying to identify what it stands for. And they're in the midst of a significant, sort of mini revolution.
I don't understand the Republicans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I mean, that is one of the things that it's hard to know what Republicans stand for today. You know, it's not just that they don't have a party platform. You know, it used to be a party which called itself the party of, you know, big ideas and really stood for certain principles. It's hard to see that now.
GERSON: No, I agree with you. I think the scariest thing about the whole situation is that this party, this party of cowardice and deception right now, under its current leaders, is on the verge of gaming the House of Representatives.
[20:15:13]
GERSON: There are a lot of people in this country that vote party because of extreme polarization that support Republicans no matter what they're saying. And I think that that's the issue we're going to face.
I mean, this is a party that does not think -- it does not think it is losing. It thinks that it has momentum for this set of absurd ideas and right now, you know, that's true among the activist base of the Republican Party.
COOPER: Michael Gerson. I really appreciate you being with us. Thank you.
GERSON: Sure. Great to be with you.
COOPER: Just ahead, the news we mentioned at the top of the broadcast about Facebook and the former President, what the social media giant's Oversight Board decided today about the former President's account, and why it means so much to him.
And later, Rudy Giuliani's allies reach out to the former President, his legal team, the dollar and cents of it when we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:20:05]
COOPER: Breaking news this evening, Congresswoman Liz Cheney warning her fellow Republicans in a new op-ed about a strategy of trying to appease or ignore statements made by the former President about the election on January 6th, and that doing so, she says, " ... could cause profound long term damage to our party and our country." That's a quote.
As we mentioned earlier, her op-ed came the same day that Facebook's Oversight Board issued a highly anticipated judgment regarding the former President's social media accounts. The Board had some criticism for Facebook that allowed this suspension to remain for the time being.
It also said this, the former President, quote, " ... created an environment where a serious risk of violence was possible. At the time of his posts, there was a clear immediate risk of harm, in his words of support for those involved in the riots legitimized their violent actions."
I am joined now by Brian Stelter, our chief media correspondent and anchor of "Reliable Sources." He's also the author of "Hoax: Donald Trump, FOX News and the Dangerous Distortion of Truth." Also with Jim Acosta, CNN anchor and chief domestic correspondent and covered the White House during the former President's four years there.
So Brian, the Oversight Board upheld the suspension, also said Facebook was, quote, "seeking to avoid his responsibilities," and that they will have to make a permanent decision on what to do within the next six months. What else did the Board recommend?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: That's right. This was something of a surprise that's kicking it right back to Mark Zuckerberg, who now has six months to come up with answers.
This Board is recommending that Facebook be much more clear about its rules and its regulations, what it takes to get banned from the platform. They say, a permanent ban is inappropriate. They also -- and this is important -- they want Facebook to have a real examination of how its platform was used and weaponized by the rioters, how its platform was used to spread the big lie?
So far, Facebook has not been very forthcoming about how its tools were used to spread these lies.
COOPER: And Jim, I am not surprised that the former President lashed out after the decision, accused social media companies of destroying, decimating the electoral process apparently with zero irony there. After covering him so long, you know, it's kind of exactly what we thought was going to be happening. I mean, he is still, you know, talking to anybody who will listen down in Mar-a-Lago repeating these same lies over and over and over again.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. He is sort of like a snake in search of a sewer these days, and he just can't find one. I will tell you, I talked to a Trump adviser, a longtime Trump advisor earlier today who still loves the guy, even though he feels that Trump lied about the election. And this adviser said, listen, this is the right decision that the Facebook Oversight Board made.
Obviously, Trump keeps lying about the election and it has already led to violence once; it could lead to violence, again. In terms of how it is impacting them, this adviser said this is actually worse than losing re-election.
This adviser said it was similar to having half of his tongue cut out.
You know, just yesterday, they unveiled this new website, this blog that Donald Trump is going to be using. They called it a platform, something -- you know, they're trying to make it sound like it's like Facebook or Instagram or Twitter, when that's just not the case. It's a blog.
And you know, in the words of this adviser, you know, this is something that a sixth grader could have come up with. So they are scrambling, and he is struggling to deal with this. No question about it.
COOPER: Brian, the former President remains suspended from Facebook. Trumpism certainly isn't, Kevin Roose, a technology columnist at "The New York Times" tracks the sources of the top 10 performing links posted by U.S. Facebook pages, and the list is dominated by right-wing Trump supporters. Has his grip on the party been at all weakened by these suspensions? To me, it doesn't seem like it.
STELTER: So this list is important. This is important, the idea that some of the most popular ideas that spread on Facebook, they are coming from Ben Shapiro and other right-wing commentators who are aligned with Trump.
Trump's grip on the party has not been weakened due to these suspensions, but his virality has, right. Trump's own messages are not going as viral. They're not spreading as widely. They might not be bringing in new fans. However, right-wing narratives, anti-Democrat narratives, pro-Trump narratives do find a lot of support on Facebook and that's critical to understand.
Whenever you hear folks complaining about censorship, the allegations on FOX every hour about conservative censorship. Well, that's belied by the fact that these right-wing commentators are among the most popular figures on the platform.
COOPER: And Jim, Jonathan Swan at AXIOS is reporting that the former President and his inner circle felt that being reinstated on Facebook was critical to a possible comeback. How much do you think this will hurt his fundraising ability?
ACOSTA: I mean, I think it hurts it tremendously. I mean, I was talking to, you know, sources close to the former President, and they are saying, you know, he is basically becoming background noise in the Republican Party right now.
It's kind of incredible, Anderson, that he has this grip over people like Kevin McCarthy and other leaders in the Republican Party, when he can't even get on social media. How is he going to raise money for this party long term if he is not going to let back on Twitter and Facebook? I mean, it sort of boggles the mind as to why the Republican Party is still hooked on him.
You know, but I will tell you, Anderson, at this point, the Republican Party seems to have no other alternative. They seem to have adopted this viewpoint and they are, you know, booting Liz Cheney out of the leadership in the House because of it that this is the Donald Trump Republican Party and that just doesn't seem to be changing at this point and they are going to try to raise money no matter how it plays out on social media.
[20:25:18]
COOPER: Brian, it is interesting how dependent the former President kind of is for these particular kind of outlets. I mean, there have been other former Presidents or Presidents who didn't use, you know, Facebook and Twitter like this and they seemed perfectly okay getting their message out in other ways.
It's very interesting that these particular venues are so critical, not really for getting ideas out, but more for being able to get his personality out.
STELTER: Right. He wants to get -- he wants to be in that minute by minute conversation in a way that past Presidents never did. The last President to lose re-election, George H.W. Bush went fishing, he relaxed. He had fun, right? But that doesn't seem to be in Trump's wheelhouse.
Trump wants to be in the conversation. He wants to be relevant at all times and that is very hard to do when you're banned from these platforms.
What he relies on now are members of the media and his right-wing media allies to share his messages for him. That's fundamentally what he is doing now by putting out incendiary crazy statements.
But frankly, I think that is diminishing as well, that value, the news value of Trump's statements is diminishing over time and that's a part of the story as well.
COOPER: Yes. Brian Stelter and Jim Acosta, appreciate it.
There's more breaking news tonight. Why allies of Rudy Giuliani, including his attorney are reaching out to the former President and Republicans for help.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:17]
COOPER: There's more breaking news. Rudy Giuliani's allies are pressing the former president and his legal team to help us one time personal lawyer pay his growing legal bills.
According to a source, the former president was recently informed of Giuliani's rising debts and Giuliani's attorney raised the issue in recent days with lawyer for the former president.
Want to bring in our senior legal correspondent Paula Reid. So, what more can you tell us as allies also include Giuliani son Andrew, I understand?
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. Andrew has been among the most vocal calling for his father to be paid for the work he did to challenge the election results so that he can now turn out and pay the legal bills that he is facing, as he faces several lawsuits and his ongoing criminal investigation in New York.
A close associate of Giuliani's tells me it'll cost him a few million dollars, at least to defend himself in that ongoing criminal investigation. As you just mentioned that Giuliani's lawyer has actually approached the Trump legal team, about Giuliani getting paid and I asked him, I said, were they receptive. He said no comment.
Now, Giuliani's lawyers also want the former president to get involved in the legal fight to try to protect some of the materials that were seized in the raids last week. But a source tells CNN that so far, the former president's lawyers, they just haven't made a decision about whether they want to get into that fight over possibly privileged materials.
COOPER: I mean, it is public record that there's a long history of the President, the former president stiffing people who had done work for him when he was in business, usually with smaller contractors who didn't have much recourse. It's not like the former president doesn't have cash on hand to pay legal fees. He raised a ton of money based on the election lie.
REID: That's right. There's a substantial pile of cash that was raised in the weeks following the election. A large portion of that actually ended up in the former president's leadership pack, but none of it's been handed over to the former mayor. A close associate, actually of Giuliani's and I spoke today the former NYPD Commissioner Bernard Kerik, he told me that he actually approached the RNC demanding that Giuliani get paid and so far he has not been paid.
But Anderson, Bernard also gave me some interesting insight into Giuliani's frame of mind following those rates. He told me that the former mayor is doing OK, but that he is increasingly frustrated that he faces all of these lawsuits. And now, this criminal investigation and the bills are mounting.
COOPER: Paula Reid, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
Want to bring in Elie Honig, former assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York? What do you make of all this? I mean we should point out that Giuliani has not been charged with anything but one week ago today, his office and home were raided by the FBI and now this.
ELIE HONIG, FMR ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Hey Anderson. So first of all, we do not know whether Rudy Giuliani will or will not be charged with a crime. And Rudy Giuliani has publicly shown little if any inclination to accept responsibility if anything has been defined.
But I want to say this, based on my experience as a prosecutor at the Southern District of New York, the same office that's handling this investigation, the two most common reasons why people decide to cooperate.
Number one is time, they are not willing or able to serve a certain amount of prison time, they don't want to risk going to trial. Number two is money. And I've seen situations very similar to what this looks like it could be where person A believes that person B has made some sort of guarantee or understanding or implicit arrangement that if you ever get in trouble, I'm going to help you out with your legal fees.
That can be business partners, that can be criminal associates that can be family members. I've seen people flip in that exact situation. There's still a lot we don't know Anderson, but that's been my experience.
COOPER: Paula, I mean the -- in terms of legal bills, who exactly is Giuliani relying on to? I mean, there's his son Andrew or there are other others who've sort of publicly been named?
REID: Yes, there's a few other people that he has out there advocating for him, he has his personal attorney reaching out, he has Bernard Kerik reaching out, but the President really does have an incentive here to perhaps intervene and keep Giuliani happy.
Over the last a personal attorney for former President Trump who is under investigation by federal prosecutors in Manhattan, Michael Cohen eventually flipped on the former president, and he publicly laid out a lot of information that resulted in additional criminal investigations. The former president though has come out and he has defended Giuliani as a great American. But lovely words don't pay the lawyers bills.
COOPER: Elie, I mean, is there any legal reason why the President would use part of that war chest that that he raised?
HONIG: No, this is purely a tactical decision Anderson. He can use part of that if, if the reason for the cost is actual attorney's fees, actual legal fees, right. So, perhaps there's some hesitation to pay the fees and then have to characterize them and justify them as legal fees. If there are some questions.
[20:35:00]
But look, this is primarily a tactical decision that Donald Trump has to make. If he's going to stiff Rudy Giuliani, then he runs the risk of whatever the consequences may be. And there are ambiguous signals as Paula has reported coming from Rudy's camp. So, Donald Trump needs to think long and hard about whether it's worth the savings here.
COOPER: Yes, Paula, I think Elie's referring to something that you reported Giuliani's son Andrew said saying, quote, the nut may crack in the next 36 hours. Who or what is the nut?
REID: We believe he is referring to the cash flow, that money may start to flow, but I asked other sources who may be more than know about actual money changing hands. They weren't really sure exactly what he was talking about, or that timeline.
But the courts have set some deadlines here particularly on this fight over privileged communication. So those billable hours are going to start stacking up and Giuliani and his associates who are pushing for him to get paid will likely be increasing their pressure on the president and his inner circle to free up that money.
COOPER: Paula Reid, Elie Honig, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
(voice-over): Up next. Remember that totally off the wall review of more than 2 million ballots being conducted in Phoenix or so-called review? Despite zero evidence of voter fraud, it has gotten even stranger. An update when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: There's a remarkable development in that so-called audit of the 2 million 2020 ballots being conducted in Phoenix. You'll remember the review was forced by supporters the former president despite official recounts showing no fraud had taken place when Arizona voted for President Biden last year.
[20:40:05]
You'll also remember that our Kyung Lah was removed from the location last week and she was trying to report on the whole thing. And the people who removed her called themselves the Cyber Ninjas.
CNN's Kyung Lah is back with an update. So, you report on the partisan nature of those involved in the audit. Now there's news about one person in particular whose involvement is raising eyebrows. What have you learn?
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the person you're talking about his name is Anthony Kern, and he was spotted at this ballot counting site at least a couple of days. And the reason why his presence is raising eyebrows is because of those ballots, he's touching those very ballots, his name is on those ballots. He ran for office in 2020.
He is a former Republican state senator he lost in 2020. But still his name is on those ballots. And that's not the most problematic thing that people are talking about.
This is the other big problem. He was pictured on January 6, on the steps of the U.S. Capitol that is the day of the insurrection. He even placed himself there with a tweet, he also placed himself at the ballot counting site with a tweet. So, he has been an active stop The Steal Advocate, he has supported Donald Trump's efforts to undermine Arizona's election results.
Now, when we brought this, when reporters brought this to the spokesperson for the Arizona Senate who's running this entire so- called audit. Here's what that spokesperson had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KEN BENNETT, AZ SENATE LIASON: We're not counting his race, so he can count votes on the ballots for the presidential race in the U.S. Senate race, as well as anyone else can and they qualified their paid workers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAH: So he's not worried about it. Also not worried about the partisan nature about all of this but election officials Anderson across the country, both Republican and Democrat, are highly concerned about all of this. Anderson.
COOPER: And what is the latest on the actual so-called audit? I mean, they were scheduled to wrap by next week. Is that still the plan?
LAH: No way. And here's why. There are 2.1 million ballots to be counted in Maricopa County, the Senate has pledged that they're going to count every single one. So far, they've only counted 200,000, that's 10%. There's no way they're going to finish by the deadline, which is May 14.
Now on May 14, there is something scheduled to happen that happens every single year and this year, it's going to happen in Rebus form. In Phoenix, high school graduations, there are nine to 11 high schools scheduled to have their graduations at the Coliseum where this count is happening. And it was scheduled ahead of time.
Now, the State Fairgrounds says if this counting is going to continue, because what we've heard from the spokesperson from the State Senate is, oh, we're just going to pause and then we'll pick it up afterwards. Well, someone needs to tell the State Fairgrounds because they say right now there is no extension.
And Anderson remember, I said 2.1 million ballots, where are they going to go? How are they going to be secured? These are just a number of very big questions about the security of this election and how this count is taking place. Anderson.
COOPER: Kyung Lah, appreciate it. Thanks.
I'm joined now by Katie Hobbs, who no doubt has her hands full keeping an eye on the vote counting now going on in Phoenix and just today sent a letter listing the many issues involved. I appreciate you being with us Secretary Hobbs.
So, you're obviously aware of the situation that Kyung just reported on. You've outlined several security shortfalls in a letter to the State Senate Liaison. Anthony Kern as present being one of them. What does it say to you that someone who has counted ballots in this audit was present at the Capitol attack on January 6?
KATIE HOBBS (D), ARIZONA SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, that's very concerning. And it speaks to the fact that they're not checking people's biases. I mean, we already know that the company running this show that the CEO has come out, stating that Trump won Arizona by 200,000 votes, which we know is baseless, but they have not screened people for their biases that are on this floor counting ballots.
And not only was Anthony Kern on the ballot for a race that's not been counted, but he's a Presidential Elector. So, he is counting a race where his name was on the ballot.
COOPER: And your office has observers who've watched the audit, what is -- what's their sense of its credibility?
HOBBS: Well, they don't have a lot of confidence in the credibility of what's going on. One of the main concerns is that they're seeing procedures being changed midstream.
And so, that's causing confusion among some of the folks that are counting and really speaks to the unreliability of the results if you're changing procedures midstream, but they've also seen glaring, just omissions in terms of basic security measures. In terms of ballots, computer terminals being left on and unattended, just a lot of serious problems that would undermine the credibility of this exercise.
[20:45:10]
COOPER: You've been vocal the past two weeks saying how you think this audit is essentially a fishing expedition in -- I mean, is anybody actually can they just come up with a number on their own? Is there actually some sort of transparent way that you actually see them counting actual? I mean, what, how is this going to play out?
HOBBS: Well, the way that ballots are being tallied, and then those tallies aggregated are some of the concerns that we outlined in the letter to convert it today. And so, it -- there seems to be not a lot of consistency. And so, we really don't know how they're going to come up with a valid result when there's not consistency and how they're putting the accounts together, how they're accounting. We -- our observers saw people tallying after the fact when -- it just it there's a lot of concerns.
COOPER: I mean officials America (INAUDIBLE) including Republicans have stood by the integrity of the actual election results. What kind of support does this audit really have in the state of Arizona, outside of the state legislature, which is obviously, you know, important?
HOBBS: Well, I think that, you know, outside of the legislature, Senate President Karen Fann, this has hurt her credibility in a lot of serious ways. And, you know, the mainstream really understand that the election was fair, that Biden won Arizona, the results we certified, were accurate.
And so, you know, this, obviously, is a fringe element, but it's a good number of the Republican electorate. So, I think, you know, I would be concerned if I was a Republican in Arizona right now.
COOPER: And what is to stop them from these ninjas from just saying, OK, here's the actual number of -- here's the vote and the President won it by 200,000. What is to stop them from doing that? HOBBS: Well, there's nothing to stop them, which is part of what we're concerned about. But they are not following really any kind of best practices in terms of a post-election audit. And that's why it's really important that we were able to get our expert observers in that room to document these kind of concerns.
COOPER: Secretary Katie Hobbs, appreciate it. Thank you very much. We'll keep following this.
HOBBS: Thanks.
COOPER (voice-over): Up next, more in our breaking news the top of the hour would you may not know about New York Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, the likely top contender to replace Wyoming Congresswoman Liz Cheney as the number three GOP House leader.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:51:45]
COOPER: More now on to breaking news from the top of the hour. Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney is firing back Republicans trying to remove her from her leadership pose for defying the former president. As we touched on tonight in "The Washington Post" op-ed, Cheney said the GOP is at a turning point and warns the former president is quote seeking to unravel critical elements of our constitutional structure that make democracy work. Former president is now backing loyalist replace Cheney in the House GOP leadership.
More in the contender now from our Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): It is truly an honor to welcome you to Fort Drum.
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Elise Stefanik at just 36 is making a very public push to become the most powerful woman in the GOP. And now has a presidential stamp of approval from Donald Trump.
STEFANIK: Base from the part of New York upstate, which is pro-Trump. Its pro-Second Amendment. It is pro-life and it is anti-AOC.
KAYE (voice-over): Being in Trump's corner has served Stefanik well. She became the breakout star of the House hearings for Trump's first impeachment off entangling with Democrats.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gentlewoman was suspend.
STEFANIK: What is the interruption for this time? It is our time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gentlewoman will suspend. You're not recognized.
STEFANIK: This is the fifth time you have interrupted members of -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gentlewoman --
STEFANIK: -- newly members of Congress.
KAYE (voice-over): Trump was so impressed at the time he tweeted about her performances. Writing in November 2019, a new Republican Star is born. Great going Elise Stefanik. He even called into Fox & Friends to praise her.
DONALD TRUMP (R) FMR PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: She has become a star. Her mannerism, her way of talking her --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's (INAUDIBLE) right to the point.
TRUMP: No, it's just the whole thing. It just works. She's a tremendous person. She was fantastic during the hearings.
KAYE (voice-over): Stefanik was clearly on Trump's radar, even if he couldn't pronounce her name.
TRUMP: Elise Stefanak.
KAYE (on-camera): But it wasn't always this way, in fact Stefanik was slow to support Donald Trump often disagreeing with him on policy. She didn't pivot towards Trump until that impeachment trial in 2019. Now, some colleagues may find it hard to imagine her old self. After all, this is the same Elise Stefanik, who once worked for George W. Bush, served as an aide to Paul Ryan and was endorsed by Mitt Romney.
(voice-over): Still, as this newly minted version of Stefanik moved ever closer to Trump's orbit. Her fundraising exploded according to The Washington Post, and so did her profile.
Stefanik became a regular on Fox News and her cheerleading for team Trump moved into hyper drive.
STEFANIK: I'm excited. There is so much energy in support of the President.
KAYE (voice-over): It even landed her a spot at last year's Republican National Convention, where she sounded a lot like the candidate himself.
STEFANIK: We understand that this election is a choice between the far-left Democratic socialist agenda versus protecting and preserving the American dream.
KAYE (voice-over): And after Trump lost and started pushing the big lie, Elise Stefanik signed on fighting to overturn the 2020 electoral results in both Pennsylvania and Texas, based on false claims of electoral fraud. Courts rejected it.
Congresswoman Stefanik was born and raised in upstate New York. She was the first person in her immediate family to graduate from college, graduating from Harvard University with honors. She was smart enough to take what once looked like a political gamble. But with her sights set on a GOP leadership seat now seems to be paying off in spades.
[20:55:14]
Randi Kaye, CNN, Orlando, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Up next. Suspect arrested in a new attack targeting Asian- Americans and what a new study is showing about hate crimes in the nation's largest cities and counties. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Police in Baltimore have arrested a 49-year-old man for allegedly beating two elderly Asian-American sisters where they worked at a liquor store. Warning, the video you're about to see is tough to watch. The attack took place Sunday night was captured on surveillance cameras. Police said the attacker beat the sisters with a piece of cinder block. Baltimore authorities had not yet classified the incident as a hate crime.
A new study shows a dramatic rise in the number of incidents classified as hate crimes against Asian-Americans in the largest cities and counties in the nation. According to research done at the University of California San Bernardino, the attacks increased by more than 160% from the first quarter of last year to the same period this year. Researchers identified 95 hate crimes against Asian-Americans as opposed to 36 in the same period a year ago.
New York City saw the largest increase from 13 to 42 over the same period. Researchers said the direct cause in their view was due to the pandemic and quote, an increase in political and online stigmatizing of Asians.
That's it for us. The news continues. Want to hand over Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris.
[21:00:02]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Appreciate you Coop Thank you very much. I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
