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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Facebook Whistleblower Testifies on Capitol Hill; Gabby Petito's Family Gives in-Depth Interview; Gabby Petito's Family Gives First In-Depth Interview; Committee Investigating January 6 Riot unable To Serve Fmr. Trump Deputy Chief Of Staff Dan Scavino Just Days Before Subpoena Deadline; Former VP Pence Claims Media Coverage Of Jan. 6 Capitol Riot Is Meant To "Demean" Trump Supporters; Trump's Former Russia Advisor On The Similarities Between Trump And Putin; Tomorrow Night: William Shatner On His Upcoming Rocket Ride. Aired 8- 9p ET
Aired October 05, 2021 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Kristin Fisher, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: And thanks to Kristin and thanks to you. AC 360 starts now.
[20:00:18]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening, Facebook likes to say it was built to bring people together. It literally uses those words in promotional material. Well, today it did bring people together.
For the first time in a long time, Democratic and Republican members of the Senate Commerce Subcommittee were together, united in their praise of whistleblower, Frances Haugen. Now as you know, she is the former Facebook product manager who leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents indicating that Facebook knows the harm that they and Instagram can do, but chooses to put clicks, eyeballs, and ad sales ahead of fixing the problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANCES HAUGEN, FORMER FACEBOOK PRODUCT MANAGER: The company's leadership knows how to make Facebook and Instagram safer, but won't make the necessary changes because they have put their astronomical profits before people.
The documents I have provided to Congress prove that Facebook has repeatedly misled the public about what its own research reveals about the safety of children, the efficacy of its artificial intelligence systems, and its role in spreading divisive and extreme messages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, as you'd imagine, this is not the company's public position. Listen to what CEO Mark Zuckerberg told lawmakers just last March.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK ZUCKERBERG, FOUNDER, FACEBOOK: The research that we've seen is that using social apps to connect with other people can have positive mental health benefits and wellbeing benefits like helping people feel more connected and less lonely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mark Zuckerberg talking about the research that he has seen. Now, Frances Haugen on research we do not know whether he has actually seen, but he was certainly privy to because it was done by the company itself, his company.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAUGEN: Facebook's own research about Instagram contains quotes from kids saying, "I feel bad when I use Instagram. But I also feel like I can't stop." Right? "I know that the more time I spend on this, the worse I feel. But like I just can't --" like they want the next clip, they want the next like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And in general, so Instagram and Facebook, because that increases engagement which in turn helps advertising revenue. That much is a simple fact about the way that social networks operate.
The fundamental question is, does Facebook build their algorithm knowing it harms certain users? Frances Haugen says the answer is very simple. Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Has Facebook ever offered features that it knew had a negative effect on children's and teen mental health?
HAUGEN: Facebook knows that its amplification algorithms, things like engagement based ranking on Instagram can lead children from very innocuous topics like healthy recipes. I think all of us could eat a little more healthy -- all the way from just something innocent like healthy recipes to anorexia promoting content over a very short period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Today's hearing focused heavily on Facebook and Instagram's impact on kids. It also dealt with Facebook's role in amplifying election lies, political violence, and everything else surrounding the 2020 election and attack on the Capitol.
Now, before we play you some of that testimony, though, here's what Facebook's Vice President for content policy said on CNN earlier today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MONIKA BICKERT, VICE PRESIDENT FOR CONTENT POLICY, FACEBOOK: The responsibility for January 6th lies with those who broke the law and those in politics and elsewhere who incited them.
And the work that we did both before the election and all the way through January 6th, partnering with academics and researchers, working closely with law enforcement and electoral authorities to understand what the risks were, and to put safety measures in place that started before the election and well before the election and continued through March. That was work that I'm very proud to have been a part of. I've frankly never seen, you know such an effort to prepare for an election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, the safety measures were aimed at limiting the spread of falsehoods, misinformation, and incitement. And as you heard Miss Haugen say on the program last night, they did not work very well.
In any case, the safeguards were lifted immediately after the election and restrictions on the so-called Stop the Steal movement weren't imposed until after the Capitol attack.
Now today. Miss Haugen had this to say about why in her judgment, the company did not maintain those safeguards longer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAUGEN: The choices that were happening on the platform were really about how reactive and twitchy was the platform, right? Like how viral was the platform. And Facebook changed those safety defaults in the run up to the election because they knew they were dangerous, and because they wanted that growth back, they wanted the celebration of the platform back after the election, they returned to their original defaults.
And the fact that they had to break the glass on January 6th and turned them back on, I think that's deeply problematic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So did the lawmakers questioning Miss Haugen, the company in recent days has pointed to a research project it set up with an outside panel of experts to study the platform's effect on the election.
[20:05:10]
COOPER: However, the company's own press release on it openly suggests it doesn't consider itself bound by any recommendations that should come from it, and as for how the company treats its own internal research, just last week, it published two of the internal studies, which were cited today on the harmful mental health impact Instagram has on teen girls. Notably though, it came with Facebook's own added annotations,
rebutting or reframing some of the negative points. Not the picture of a company ready or willing to take a hard look at itself, at least not in public.
As for inside corporate walls, well, Frances Haugen spoke to that as well today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLUMENTHAL: I think in general, but I'd like you to just confirm for me, this research, and the documents containing that research is not only findings and conclusions, it is also recommendations for changes.
What I hear you saying is that again, and again and again, these recommendations were just rejected or disregarded, correct?
HAUGEN: There is a pattern of behavior that I saw at Facebook, of Facebook choosing to prioritize its profits over people. And anytime that Facebook faced even tiny hits to growth like 0.1 percent of sessions, one percent of views that it shows its profits over safety.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining us now is Yael Eisenstat, former Elections Integrity head at Facebook, former C.I.A. officer and former white house adviser; also Jennifer Grygel, Associate Professor of Communications at Syracuse University who studies the harmful effects of social media on teens.
Yael, you've been speaking out about, what you say are the dangers of Facebook since you left the company. How big of a watershed moment you think was today, given the focus and now on the company's own documents?
YAEL EISENSTAT, FORMER GLOBAL HEAD OF ELECTIONS INTEGRITY OPS FOR POLITICAL ADVERTISING AT FACEBOOK: Well, thanks for having me on Anderson, I think it is a huge watershed moment, but only if we actually do something with the information. You know, everything that is in the documents, especially the documents that were turned over to the S.E.C., which have now been released, I think only today publicly, they just demonstrate the internal knowledge of what Facebook does and doesn't know about exactly what's happening on their platform.
Then it confirms what a lot of researchers, activists, former employees, such as myself have been saying for years. And so again, it's up to lawmakers now. It's not about whether Facebook is good or bad, or does more good than bad. It's about whether or not there are some practices that have harmed democracy, harmed individuals, and potentially broken the law, and what the leadership knew about it.
This should absolutely be a huge watershed moment and should really make the public understand that at this point, we can no longer just rely on Facebook's own self-selected data points and their own talking points when they like to say what they have and haven't done. COOPER: Jennifer, I mean, a lot of people have made the analogy to
Big Tobacco purposely misleading the public about the dangers of smoking, and when that was revealed, do you think this is as bad as that?
JENNIFER GRYGEL, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF COMMUNICATIONS, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: It's very different. However, time, you know, it may take several years for a cancer to manifest, but what we're seeing on Instagram is an imminent threat to teenagers. I am seeing self-harm, and that sounds so abstract when the senators are talking about it, but what does it look like? I'm talking about starvation. How bad the anorexia photos are up there? I'm talking about teenagers cutting themselves.
This context needs to be out there so that parents understand what this looks like. And it's not simply just like smoking a cigarette. Sure, that regulation down the road, you know, maybe we have to manage it that way, but I think we need that context right now.
COOPER: Yael, you know, as a former C.I.A. officer, you said in an interview that Facebook knows you better than the C.I.A. ever will, which is -- I mean, it's a fascinating thing, a fascinating quote.
You said Facebook knows more about you than you know about yourself. That is the remarkable thing, and you know, Yuval Noah Harari has written about this in his book "Homo Deus" that you know, we forget about ourselves. We forget -- I mean, my mind is like a sieve. I forget things I did you know, 10 years ago or last week.
Facebook remembers and it's all there. They know more -- they know about everybody who is a customer of theirs.
EISENSTAT: Yes, I mean, of course, it was a little bit tongue in cheek, but it really is actually true. And this is what I think people need to really understand. It's not about -- again, it's not about Facebook purposely or intentionally saying we want to go harm teenage girls, or we want to radicalize people. I mean, the shocking revelation to me was the whole idea of how algorithms were recommending extremist groups, which is the core of what I used to work on and what I talked about.
[20:10:09]
EISENSTAT: But how do they do that? They do that because they hoover up all of your data around the internet, not just when you're using Facebook, and they segment you into these profiles to sell you -- basically, they're not selling your data, but they're selling a profile of you through targeting tools to advertisers. And in order to do that, they have to keep hoovering up our data.
And so then they start to infer not just exactly who you are or what photo you posted today, but what's going to really kind of play to your vulnerabilities and what message is going to keep you coming back for more, and that's why I say they know more about you than you do yourself, because I might go on to Instagram -- or it's not just Facebook, let's be clear -- on to YouTube or any of these companies looking for something, and they have inferred that if I am looking for certain political content, that the next thing that I might be interested in is actually the slightly more extreme content.
And their own research shows, which is in one of the S.E.C. filings that people who go on to look for political content, especially conservative political content humor, not necessarily anything nefarious, within two days are being recommended conspiracy theories, and within under a week being recommended QAnon content.
So that's what I mean by they know more about you than you do yourself, or they think they do. They are pushing ideas at you.
COOPER: Well, Jennifer, I mean, that's one of the things when you look at QAnon, you know, there have been a lot of, you know, interviews with people who were online -- interviews with moms looking for yoga classes or who are interested in yoga, or you know, caring about kids, obviously, and wanting to protect children. And then very -- through algorithms were ultimately led into, you know, QAnon ideas, which kind of targeted that.
GRYGEL: So, it's pretty easy for these groups to get radicalized and established quickly on Facebook, like QAnon is more political in nature. But I want to bring us back to Instagram because it's different. It's a different platform, culturally.
And when the teens are brought together there, it feels a little bit more like a cult, okay. You have to communicate through symbols, and the way that the recommendations are picking out their friends, you know, again, you could be brought into essentially depressive communities when you weren't depressed before.
And so again, I want to raise this to the attention of parents, because again, there's something different about Instagram, and I think we need to talk about that more.
COOPER: You know, well, Jennifer, and to your point, I mean, I'm on Instagram, and I enjoy it. I look at -- you know, I follow friends and I look at art sites and things like that. But I've got to say, it depresses me.
I mean, I leave feeling worse than when I got on not only because I've just wasted the eternal amounts of time, just you know, scrolling through the images I follow. But I feel worse about my own life. I cannot imagine what a teenager feels. I mean, I'm supposedly an adult -- what some kid feels, looking at other people's lives and how their lives seem much more exciting than their own.
GRYGEL: We need to humanize this experience more and talk about more of what the teens are experiencing. We've seen a lot of data and numbers go by, but like, let me tell you, what they're seeing is just absolutely horrific.
They are imitating each other in these behaviors because they want belonging on there. They want to connect and they're not just experiencing friendship in real life, like we would have when we were kids, you know, but like, they are living a hybrid life. They are living in a digital world, too. And maybe they were happy one day, and then they get recommended into this downward spiral.
And then there's almost like a communal depression amongst them, and that's a problem. And I'm not seeing that happen on other platforms in the same way, especially amongst teens. We need to address this and we need to help improve this community. It's dire.
COOPER: Yael, you know, Frances Haugen testified today that Integrity Teams at Facebook, and I mean, you know, I'm glad there are Integrity Teams at Facebook, but they're under resourced, and that is one of the reasons, you know, these problems are not getting fixed. And it's not -- there is not the economic incentive necessarily for Facebook to really want to fix some of these things. In your experience, how much bigger is the problem than just that?
EISENSTAT: So, yes, that's a key element. But I would take it a step further. I mean, you know, a lot of the documents she showed as well as things that many of us have been saying proves that there are people that work there who fundamentally want to make the platform better, who really want to make it safer for the public and have proposed very real potential solutions, including my team when we proposed solutions for how to ensure that voter suppression wasn't happening in political advertising.
But the two points are, one, they're definitely not viewed. So, the Integrity Teams are a cost center. They're not a revenue generator. They're not the ones contributing to growth. They're the ones saying slow down. They're the ones saying, wait a minute, we need to consider how this is affecting X, Y, or Z.
[20:15:13]
EISENSTAT: And so they are always going to be second tier. They are never going to be prioritized. But I would also argue, in addition to being under resourced, and not nearly enough people hired, you also have to empower the people you hire, because when they like to brag about the 35,000 or 40,000 people they've hired to work on safety, which by the way, many are contractors, they -- I was one of those people, and I was never empowered to take my team's ideas and solutions, many of the same types of things that Miss Haugen talked about today, and actually get those approved by the higher ups.
And so, it's both that they're under resourced and that they are not empowered to make the ultimate decisions that at the end of the day, protect their -- not just their growth and their profit, let's be clear, also their political power.
COOPER: Right.
EISENSTAT: Like a lot of the decisions that I was rebuffed against when I worked there, it was very clear that they didn't want to anger, the incumbent power, the administration at the time and some of the things that my team was proposing might have ended up doing that.
COOPER: Yael Eisenstat, I appreciate it. Jennifer Grygel, thank you so much for that. Fascinating. We should know we invited Facebook to come on the program tonight, they declined. Next breaking news. Both families in the Gabby Petito and Brian
Laundrie stories speaking out, some also lashing out.
Later, the rioters wanted a rope around his neck, but he is turning the other cheek or just ignoring it altogether. What on earth maybe making Mike Pence so eager for us all to forget the violent mob that literally wanted to hang him on the 6th of January? Well, you can guess. David Gergen joins us with his thoughts ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:20:57]
COOPER: There is breaking news tonight in the killing of Gaby Petito and the search for her wanted fiancee, Brian Laundrie.
For the first time, her parents and stepparents have sat down for an interview. In addition, Laundrie's sister is speaking out talking to CNN's Leyla Santiago just a short time ago. She joins us now from North Port, Florida.
So Leyla, I know you spoke with Brian Laundrie's sister, Cassie, what did she say?
LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Anderson, one of the things we talked about was just what is her relationship with her parents like right now? She said she hasn't spoken to them in about two weeks and that the last time she spoke to them, it was a very short conversation.
She says their attorney has made it clear to her that her parents are not to answer any questions regarding Brian and Gabby, even to their own daughter, Cassie Laundrie.
Now, she also said that when they did talk, it was a very short conversation mostly about Cassie's own kids. And after that, they just stopped talking. Not a lot of detail, so a very short conversation and few and far between.
COOPER: And Gabby Petito's parents and stepparents were on Dr. Phil's show today, I understand.
SANTIAGO: Right. The four of them sat down with Dr. Phil, and you know, they spoke to the media last week in a press conference. And in that press conference, they told the world really that they wanted Brian Laundrie to turn himself in. They wouldn't talk about their relationship with the Laundrie family.
But in that interview, we learned that there was at least some attempt, according to the Petito family to reach out to the Laundrie family when they started to get concerned. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The van got there. And whatever happened with his parents after that, I don't know. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jo and Nicole both called Roberta asking not just
--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Called and texted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roberta, I need a phone number I can get for that family. I know there was a couple numbers for them --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police officers called her. Detectives called her.
DR. PHIL, TV SHOW HOST: But you all called?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We called.
DR. PHIL: You called, you called, you called.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't tell you how many times.
DR. PHIL: She called, and you called me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He called.
DR. PHIL: And what was -- what did you get?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Voicemail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Voicemail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing. Voicemails.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then I would send texts on top of that.
DR. PHIL: No response?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the texts -- I mean, I -- we were going to call the police. Right? You know, just letting you know because we have no idea. No response. A normal parent when you text someone that they're going to call the cops because you can't find your child, they would reply.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No response. No, nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANTIAGO: And Anderson, the parents also talked about how initially they thought Gabby and Brian were missing until they realized that Gabby's van was right here in North Port, Florida at the Laundrie family home.
Now, as you might imagine, this was a pretty emotional interview and you could really feel the pain from Gabby's mother when she talked about the moment they were notified that human remains were found in Wyoming.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICHOLE SCHMIDT, MOTHER OF GABBY PETITO: They said that they found remains, and we knew, Gabby -- even though, we were hoping it wasn't. It's hard -- it was the hardest thing I've ever had to listen to and it didn't hit me right away for a few seconds, but I knew she was gone.
DR. PHIL: At what point did your mother's intuition tell you that she was gone?
SCHMIDT: I didn't want to admit it, but I felt the night I found out the van was in Florida, on the 11th. I felt in my heart that she was gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANTIAGO: And you can really feel that pain in her voice. I mean, it was September 11th, so more than three weeks ago was when she was reported missing several days later was when Brian Laundrie according to his parents was last seen.
[20:25:11]
COOPER: And does Gabby Petito's family think that Laundrie is alive and out there somewhere?
SANTIAGO: Well, remember, Anderson, last week they called for him to turn himself in and in a very similar message today with Dr. Phil. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: Do you believe he is hiding somewhere?
JOSEPH PETITO, GABBY PETITO'S FATHER: I do.
DR. PHIL: Why do you believe that?
PETITO: Because he's a coward. Flat out. I can use some other words, but I can't use them on your show. He is a coward.
DR. PHIL: He's too coward to kill himself, too coward to come forward? He's just on the run.
PETITO: Anyone that lived in that house is a coward.
DR. PHIL: Is he living off the land somewhere?
SCHMIDT: Possibly.
DR. PHIL: Does he have that skill set?
SCHMIDT: I believe so.
DR. PHIL: I mean, is he an environmental survivalist type? It means, knows camping, knows --
SCHMIDT: I believe he bragged about that, like that he was good at that stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANTIAGO: And the attorney for the Laundrie parents has said that Brian's parents don't know where he is and in the statement says, they are hoping that the F.B.I. can find their son.
COOPER: Leyla Santiago, I appreciate it. Thank you.
Up next, we're going to dig into the hunt for Brian Laundrie with someone who knows how these things work, the former Commander of the U.S. Marshals.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:08]
COOPER: We're now in our breaking news on the killing Gabby Petito on the search for her missing fiance Brian Laundrie. As Leyla Santiago reported earlier Petito's parents and step parents give their first in-depth interview today on the Dr. Phil Show. Petito's father called Laundrie and his family cowards, her mom believes Laundrie could still be alive living off the land, and they're calling on him to turn himself in. There's also Leyla is reporting she spoke with Brian Laundrie sister and says her parents are keeping her in the dark at the under the guidance of an attorney.
Joining us for his perspective of the manhunt is Lenny DePaul, a former commander of the U.S. Marshals Service Regional Fugitive Task Force for New York and New Jersey.
Lenny, as Leyla noted Gabby's parents and step parents also told Dr. Phil how infuriating it was to reach out to Laundrie's parents, when they first became concerned heard nothing back. Is that I mean, how common is it to have a situation where you have one family reaching out to another?
LENNY DEPAUL, FMR COMMANDER, U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE REGIONAL FUGITIVE TASK FORCE for NY & NJ: Well, good evening, Anderson. And it's a little bizarre. I mean, I think that the Laundrie family was sending the Petito family a strong message, and it kind of went something like this. We don't like what our son just told us. So we're not answering the phone. And our attorney said don't talk to anybody. And again, that's just my opinion.
COOPER: Yes, I mean, one would -- I mean there's no reason for that family not to talk to the Petitos unless they have information which is bad for their son and they don't want to get involved or don't want to help the Petito family.
DEPAUL: You would think so I mean, Gabby lived with them prior to them going across country, I'm sure you know, they got engaged, unfortunately, COVID prevented them from getting married. You would think the families were somewhat close, or at least had conversations in the past. So why, why would they not return their calls. Even after I think Joe Petito threatened to call the police, they still didn't return their calls. And eventually they did call a non-emergency number several times and responded. And then of course, we all know that day that they knocked down the Petito family's door, the police did and said, well, the vans there but unfortunately, Gabby's not, and that was the, you know, the start of the bad news.
COOPER: In all your years, I mean, of tracking people, does everybody talk to somebody? I mean, is it -- are there people who -- and I'm sure some people have just kind of disappeared and broken off all communication with everyone they've ever known. But the vast majority of people do they remain in contact while they're on the run with people?
DEPAUL: You know, a lot of them do. And in this particular situation, I don't think this was a well thought out plan to be honest with you. I think this was a knee jerk reaction. As a sister, Cassie said, he's very familiar with the Appalachian Trail. He's been there before numerous times, he goes off the grid for a couple of weeks by himself.
I think he's hiding somewhere is there. I mean, you know, he's, he's dark, he's obviously off the grid. He's not communicating with anybody. He's going to run out of provisions, he's going to make a mistake or somebody else's. And then hopefully, law enforcement is, you know, connecting the dots, and they're watching and, and they can make this arrest without incident.
COOPER: Do you think he's a threat to other people?
DEPAUL: Possibility. I mean, just knowing a little bit about his background, the way he carries himself, you know, kind of scratching my head. I mean, here's a guy that's all over social media. He was documenting, I mean, every minute of that trip they were taking, and now he's dark. I mean, that's a psychological profile in itself. I mean, he's now not communicating with anybody. He's not on social media. He's not on YouTube. He's gone dark.
So, I'm sure there's some issues going on in his head. And he's certainly sleeping with one eye open.
COOPER: And when people are on the run, I mean, psychologically, what kind of I mean, do they change? What does it -- what does it do to somebody?
DEPAUL: Well, I mean, human instincts turn into animal instincts. And that's certainly the case here. I mean, he's off the grid. He's not used to playing fugitive, I would say he's not a career criminal. And again, I don't think he planned this. He doesn't have the funding to go over, you know, to jump on an airplane. He certainly didn't do that. His picture is coast to coast. I don't think he's on a boat sitting in Cuba. He's local, he's local. He's not, you know, he's not a like (INAUDIBLE) as we spoke about recently.
So he doesn't have that type of communication or funding or, or those resources. So he's local. Is somebody helping them? Possibly. We, you know, I got a pretty good feeling his family, his mom, dad, certainly know, you know, couple weeks ago where he was headed and what he was doing just by their reaction.
COOPER: The homicide investigation continues in Wyoming, the cause of death has not been released. I assume investigators don't want to reveal details like that just to because it's an ongoing investigation. And it might be there might be some details they want to hold back for legal reasons.
DEPAUL: Right they don't want to tip your hand. I mean, the investigation, you know, the homicide investigation is, you know, as ruled a homicide rather, they've collected what they've got, you know, what they've done. The toxicology reports are in everything is done. They're doing their homework. Hopefully they can get enough evidence where they can indict somebody and then yes, the cause of death is going to be important. Was it a gunshot wound or knife stabbing? Was it a blunt instrument?
[20:35:14]
I mean, that's, you know, I think investigators need to know that on the fugitive side, these fugitive investigators, you know, they're out there doing their job. And if they confront this guy, and he gets pinned down, or the new starts tightening, you know, is he carrying a weapon? Is it suicide by cop? I mean, a lot of that goes through your head as you, you know, as you as you tighten that perimeter up and you get a bead on this guy.
COOPER: Lenny DePaul, appreciate it. Thank you.
DEPAUL: Thank you.
COOPER: Up next, we have breaking news involving subpoenas in the investigation to the January 6 riot. Plus, he was a target of the mob on that day, some one to hang him. Now, as you might predict the former vice president is rewriting history saying the media is focusing on one day in January to demean supporters, all the supporters, the former president. Hear his comments and the gaslighting and the whitewashing, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Breaking news on Capitol Hill, CNN has now learned that the committee investigating the January 6 riot has not been able to serve a key subpoena to one of the people they want information from.
CNN's congressional correspondent Ryan Nobles joins us with the latest. So what do we know about this?
RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right Anderson. We're talking here about the former White House Deputy Chief of Staff, Dan Scavino. This is someone that is very close with the former President Donald Trump. And we've learned through multiple sources connected to the January 6 Select Committee that they've been unable to formally serve a Scavino with a subpoena.
[20:40:15]
Now, this is important because the select committee has set as a deadline for the response for the first round of the subpoena request, which is a document request by Thursday at midnight, but yet they've still been unable to formally serve him with the subpoena. Of course, that subpoena also includes an in-person deposition, which is scheduled for next week. This obviously complicates an already complicated process. Anderson, the committee was already bracing for what they expected to be a lengthy legal challenge in the compliance of these subpoenas. But the fact that they haven't been able to even serve Scavino creates a real barrier because they can't even begin that process.
So, this is a setback for the committee right now, as they can't even find Scavino right now to serve him with that subpoena.
COOPER: And has the committee been successful in serving subpoenas to other former Trump officials?
NOBLES: Well, that's not exactly clear tonight. Of course, remember that first round of four subpoenas, those key names Mark Meadows, the former chief of staff, Kash Patel, a former DOD official, and of course, Steve Bannon, a former White House counselor and a close Trump ally. Well, we know that Kash Patel said publicly that he's received the subpoena. And we have no indication that they've had any issues serving subpoenas against Meadows and against Bannon.
And of course, there's another long list of Trump supporters and allies people that helped form the Stop The Steal rally on the day of January 6, we've all been served subpoenas that process is still ongoing, and that deadline is a bit later. So at this point, the only problem that we know of is with Scavino. And it of course it comes is that deadline is just a couple of days away.
COOPER: All right. Ryan Nobles, appreciate the update. Thanks.
More on the January 6 riot, former Vice President Mike Pence, trying to rewrite history and pave the way toward his own presidential run claiming the media coverage is meant to quote, demean supporters of the former president. You may remember that some of those reporters who stormed the Capitol were chanting, Hang Mike Pence.
Mr. Pence. I don't know that he's forgotten that because he had to be evacuated from the Senate chamber along with his family and taken to a secure location because he -- his life was in danger. Instead, he went on Fox News though with a conspiracy theory and trying to do a makeover for his reputation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE (R) FMR VICE PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: I know the media wants to distract from the Biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in January. They want to use that one day to try and demean the character and intentions of 74 million Americans who believe we could be strong again and prosperous again and supported our administration in 2016 and 2020. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He lies in such an erroneous way doesn't he? Steely eyed lies. Pence's comments are just the latest in a dangerous whitewashed campaign by Republicans who seem to be moving the party further and further from reality.
Joining us now to talk about it, CNN senior political analyst, David Gergen, and CNN political commentator, Amanda Carpenter.
So David, the Mike Pence is really sitting there with his phony face, blaming the media, calling insurrection one day in January while protesters chanted to hang him. It was interesting when Sean Hannity actually asked him about his ongoing -- what his relationship is like now with the former president. He got off that topic real quick, and didn't actually have really any details to say because clearly, there isn't much of a relationship.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that's exactly right. Anderson, it has been reported that he has not spoken to Donald Trump by phone or in person since April. That's hardly a close relationship. Now in fairness to, you know, Pence, his team argues, yes, they're having to navigate with Trump on one hand, but what's really going on is they're gearing up for the run for president whether or not Trump gets in, Pence tends to get in. And he's doing what a good candidate does right now. He's testing the waters, trying to straighten himself out with Trump, he's raising, putting together a team and he's also trying to raise tons of money, some $18 million.
But that that may be what they think they're doing. But every time you go and kiss the ring, I don't care who you are, what kind of intention you have. You go kiss Donald Trump's ring. You come across looking like a lackey, you know, a survival manservant, and that's what happened to try to Pence with this. He enlarge Trump and he diminished himself. And you can't get away from that. Yes, this is why it's going to be so hard for candidates who under who are running against the Democrats. They -- what do you do about Trump? How do you deal with this because it always comes up with this kind of sense? If you kiss the ring, there you go, your personal weakness.
COOPER: Yes, Amanda, I mean, it's not even clear the former president will let him in his radius enough to actually kiss his ring. So I guess those closest is, you know, licking Sean Hannity's ring. Is there anything -- I mean it is extraordinary. It's almost an insult to the Secret Service who risk their own lives to kind of rush him and his family out of the Senate chamber. For him to now kind of be pretending like oh, wasn't any big deal.
[20:45:18]
AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, what Mike Pence is trying to do here is distract from his role in January 6. His play to the potential 2024 Republican voter is, hey, if you're like many of the Republicans who voted for Trump because of his policies, but didn't like his personality, I mean, how many times have you heard that. I'm your guy. I'm the guy that kept the ship steady in the Trump White House. You can count on me because, you know, at the end of the day of January 6, I did my duty and you should give me credit for that.
But I think that is a joke, Anderson, because Mike Pence went along with every single bit of it until, you know, the last minute that day. When Mike Pence pitches himself as a steady, reliable constitutional conservative, I think he should be asked, why did you say so quiet about your role in certifying the election until January 6, because his silence gave the insurrectionists hope. He gave them inspiration. They all were depending on the idea that maybe Mike Pence, if he wouldn't stop the certification, he would delay it or maybe send it back from the States. We know all this from the Eastman memo. Mike Pence entertained all of that, until the very last minute. Had he come out maybe like even Bill Barr did in December and said, you know what, there is no widespread fraud, I'm out of here.
January 6 may not have happened. But Mike Pence went along with it. And that is why he wants to minimize and say it was just one, one thing that happened one day. No, no, no. It was there many months in the making. And he was there for every bit of it.
COOPER: Yes. I mean, David, if that mob had been able to catch, you know, Mike Pence, or member of his family, I don't think he'd be calling it just one day in, you know, in January.
GERGEN: Yes, just one day in January, just one day. And just titled to a song maybe. Listen to he, he came according to a good report, he came within 60 seconds of being kicked, grabbed by the mob. And there were people in that mob who wanted to hang him. You know, that is -- if you look at that, how can you just talk about just one day, it's been, you know, just like it wasn't a big deal, we moved on. This is the first time that this capital has been -- had been assaulted like this since the war of 1812. You got to go back to 1812.
Chris has pointed out today at cnn.com, since today, and just in the last days, we've had 600 people who've been charged with crimes across 40 states. We know that there are at least 100 policemen who were injured. We know four or five died. You know, how much you need to know that it wasn't just one day in January?
COOPER: Yes. I mean, yes. Mike Pence long ago, you know, sold his, whatever integrity he may --
GERGEN: Yes.
COOPER: -- have had at one point. David Gergen, Amanda Carpenter, appreciate it. Thank you.
Up next, a woman who saw the former president's propaganda machine up close and wrote about it in a new book. Here with the former White House, says Russia advisor says about the similarities between the former President Vladimir Putin and if she thinks it's dangerous to the former president runs again. Fiona Hill joins us next.
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[20:51:35]
COOPER: Before the break, we told you about the really kind of pathetic whitewashing of January 6 by former Vice President Pence and members of the Republican Party. It's not just about rewriting history, though there was plenty of propaganda coming out the former administration when they were in the White House.
Our next guest saw it firsthand. Fiona Hill is the former White House adviser on Russia. She also testified in the former president's first impeachment hearing. She's the author of a new book out today it's called There Was Nothing For You Here Finding Opportunity In The 21st Century. And Fiona Hill joins us now.
Thank you so much for being with us. So, just first of all, when you hear former Vice President Pence, you know, calling January 6, just one day in January, I wonder how you feel.
FIONA HILL, SR. FELLOW, CENTER ON THE U.S. & EUROPE, BROOKINGS INSTITUTE: Well, look, it's very disappointing, because on January 6, Vice President Pence actually did do something very courageous in the moment. I mean, obviously, there's a lot of pressure on him not to certify the elections, he remembered his constitutional oath and the commitment that he made to the country and to the people of this country. And he did the right thing in the moment.
The fact that he's now reversing course, pretending this was no big deal whatsoever. I mean, you could tell just by the tone of his voice in the moment when we all heard him on television, in the process of certification, all the stories around us that he realized how momentous it was. Again, this is just very disappointing. It's like letting us all down.
COOPER: In your new book, you talk about the events surrounding January 6, you call it a slow motion coup attempt. As someone who has studied authoritarian regimes for decades, can you just explain what went through your mind that day, and in the days and weeks and followed it?
HILL: Well, I've also emotion because it was a really long tail to it. And, you know, you opened with a clip of my testimony at the first impeachment trial. And really, it all began in the incidents that led up to that first impeachment, the efforts to manipulate the Government of Ukraine into declaring some kinds of investigation into Joe Biden and to his son, Hunter Biden, all intended to put Joe Biden out of contention in the presidential campaign. And then from then on President Trump talking down the elections, saying that we're going to be falsified saying that we're going to be stolen. And then when the actual moment of election came, saying that he hadn't lost, he'd won, that everything was a lie.
And so, we're continuing with this. I mean, everything you're talking about in the previous segment, just suggests that we're not out of this situation. We're still having all of the lies about what happens in 2020. And what's going to happen in 2024.
COOPER: In the book, you write a lot about Vladimir Putin, obviously his ability to manipulate people, including Donald Trump. It's I mean, do you think Trump has managed also to tap into some of those same tactics here in the in the U.S., particularly with their members of the Republican party? Or is it? Is it just the fact that he has so much support among the base that he doesn't even need to be particularly clever and manipulative?
HILL: Well, it's a bit of a mixture of both. I mean, there's a well trod playbook that Vladimir Putin and many other authoritarian leaders have laid out. A lot of it is this manipulation of the information space, conspiracy theories, telling lies, and giving them lies veracity, because it's you, the President of the United States, or someone very significant, the Vice President of United States saying it, for instance.
But that's support that's critical, because what President Trump has done just like President Putin is he's got rid of the party. Really, there isn't much of a Republican Party there except the kind of personality cult around Trump himself, and everyone has to appeal to him, to actually still be in the political mix. That's exactly the same with Putin and Russia. And Trump is appealing directly to people themselves without the party without any of the institutions. It's just exactly the same kind of player we see in Russia.
[20:55:12]
COOPER: You also write something fascinating you say you write in the book and it's very worrying, you say Russia is America's ghost of Christmas future, a harbinger of things to come if we can adjust course and healer political polarization, that's terrifying.
HILL: Well, it is terrifying. That's actually why I wrote it. I mean, I think, you know, we're looking now at the kind of scenario we saw in Russia over the last 20 years, where Vladimir Putin came in after a decade of chaos, he said, I'm going to make Russia great again. And what he did instead, is turn the clock back on democratization in Russia. And, you know, of course, we've seen the annexation of Crimea, we've seen all kinds of escapades on the international stage. But the most important thing is the way that he turned the clock back on the developments that are going on in Russian politics.
COOPER: If the former -- I mean, given everything we know, if the former president runs again, what do you think that that means for the -- our future? I mean for the future, the country?
HILL: While we're on a completely different path than we've been on for, you know, the last several 100 years since our independence, we're back on the path to tyranny. And I don't say that lightly. Because once you get someone who has no real respect for the institutions that have been built up over hundreds of years that have been laid down in the constitution and only thinks about themselves, then we've forgotten what this country was about. The preamble to the U.S. Constitution is we the people, it's not anything about any individual, any president. We're not all here to serve one person.
There are 330 million of us. And are we just going to throw away what everybody, you know, all our forebears and you know, all of our family members have done over all of these years to try to build America up in the democracy that we have today. And we're just going to just cast it all the way over one guy and a group of people are in the thrall of one person.
COOPER: Fiona Hill, it's such a pleasure to have you on. Your new book, There's Nothing For You Here Finding Opportunity, The 21st Century, went on sale today. There's nothing for you here, that's from your dad said to you, you have such an incredible personal story of achievement. I look forward to people reading in the book. I look forward to it as well. Thank you so much.
HILL: Thanks, Anderson. Thanks for having me.
COOPER: Coming up next, announcement about a very special guest tomorrow night. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Quick fun announcement William Shatner is going to join us tomorrow night. It's not like he's, you know, any big deal to him or anything because next week he's going to space, he's 90 years old. He'd be riding Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin rocket, a lot to talk to him about this tomorrow night on "360."
[21:00:01]
News continues. Let's hand over Chris for "CUOMO PRIMETIME." Chris.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right, Anderson, thank you very much.
I'm Chris Cuomo and welcome to "PRIMETIME."
