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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
FBI Now At Suspect's Home: "Come Out With Your Hands Up"; Maine State Police: We Aren't Positive The Suspect Is In His Home; Now: FBI Activity At Maine Shooting Suspect's Home. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 26, 2023 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00]
TIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI SWAT TEAM: If there's a possibility he's in there, they want to control him. They're giving him the opportunity to come out. He didn't take advantage of that opportunity.
And so now rather than breaching and entering the building, they will breach the building most likely and inject CS gas into the building, forcing him to come out. If he's in there, he'll come out one way or another, or he will die inside there. But I think that's what their next move is.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: That is incredible to watch as you point at that vehicle to the right of your screen, the one that Tim is referring to with that battering ram on the front.
All right. Well, our coverage here continues, our breaking news coverage with my partner Anderson Cooper. Let me hand it off to you, Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: For viewers who are just tuning in, these are live pictures from Bowdoin, Maine, the home of a man authorities say murdered 18 people in two locations in the nearby city of Lewiston yesterday evening, the country's deadliest mass shooting this year.
Police and FBI agents went to this home earlier today, returned there in force a short time ago.
In the last 45 minutes or so, if you've been watching, they have been heard asking at least one person to, quote, "Come out with your hands up."
CNN's Brian Todd is on the scene for us, as is Shimon Prokupecz. Let's go to Brian. Let's start off with you.
Explain what you have been seeing for those who are just joining us, and what assets that you can say are on the ground?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, for the past -- more than past hour, we have been here while kind of this influx of law enforcement just kind of poured into this area right in front of the house, right in front. They had been here earlier, then they had left. And about an hour ago, they poured several vehicles and personnel and air assets back here, and basically set up camp in front of the house with a loudspeaker and with a spotlight. And you can see the spotlight now kind of still shifting around, you know, either at, right on the house or just around it.
They could also be using the spotlight, we believe, to maybe just check areas on the sides of the house, because that seems to be what they have done.
And then at various times, actually, there was some very continuous dialogue. It was a one-way dialogue, but it was a law enforcement officer on a bullhorn while the spotlight was trained on the front of the house saying commands like "come out with your hands up, you're under arrest, come out with nothing in your hands, we don't want anyone else to get hurt. We know you -- we know this could be intimidating for you, but we need you to come out and follow our instructions, follow our commands to walk to the front of the truck."
I'm not sure exactly which truck they were referring to, but they repeatedly asked whoever might be inside to walk to the front of a truck in the driveway.
But I have to tell you, Anderson, for the last -- I'm kind of calculating now 35 to 40 minutes, that dialogue has gone completely silent. We have heard no commands. We have seen these assets on the ground shifting around, vehicles shifting, air assets like drones, helicopters just kind of shifting all around. That spotlight continues to shift.
And, you know, they seem to be very methodical in the way they're going about this. There is not a -- you can see the spotlight there kind of -- just kind of probing around a tree at the front of the property.
COOPER: Brian, let me -- let's point out what we do not know. It's almost as important as what we do know in this time.
You talk about a dialogue. If there is a dialogue, as far as we know, it has been one way. Is there any -- they don't know for sure there is somebody in this house, correct?
TODD: That is correct, Anderson. From every indication that myself and my colleagues who have working sources have gotten, they do not or at least -- if they know, they don't want to reveal that. It has not been revealed that they know he is there is what I can say.
And they -- I have to say that -- you know, that there has been no, you know, I guess rapid or jerky movement of anything here. They've been very methodical in moving assets around, moving vehicles around, repositioning the spotlight, you know, moving drones and other things.
And they seemed -- and I can also tell you, by the way, that the lights are no longer flashing. We can see police lights, but they're not flashing anymore. So yes, and to reiterate, the dialogue has been one-way. There has been no indication that anyone on the other side has been talking to them.
COOPER: Also, I just want to remind our viewers we are not discussing any tactical moves that any of our reporters may witness over the course of this. Law enforcement asked reporters on the scene to turn off their lights. We have done that, obviously, as well.
So the dark -- what you are seeing is what our people on the ground are seeing as well. But we're not going to go into details about any movements that we may witness in any level of detail.
[20:05:05]
Shimon Prokupecz is also on the scene. That's why we're having -- we have two different angles on this from two different teams on the ground.
Shimon, just talk a little bit about what we know about this suspect and what we know about this location that they are at.
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. So this is believed to be one of the residences of the home of the suspect.
And at this point, based on the way law enforcement is behaving, the way they're conducting this, they don't feel that there is any kind of imminent danger, right? They don't believe that there are any hostages inside. They don't believe that anyone inside.
At least at this point, just based on the way their posture and what they're doing, they're not even 100% certain that there is anyone inside. And they're certainly not certain that it is the suspect.
But everything that we're seeing here is to a, you know, high degree just precautions, because they know if this is the suspect, they're dealing with a potentially very dangerous situation, someone who's trained, someone who perhaps will put up a fight.
And right now, for them, it's about also protecting themselves. And so we're seeing all of these heavy vehicles here that -- where they can protect themselves. They're heavily armed as well, and they're wearing, you know, heavy body armor.
We've seen some other equipment, drones in the air, helicopters. So they're able to monitor a lot of what's going on around the home from the air.
And it seems they're really operating right now kind of in the dark, right? Everything is very dark.
We've seen some lights, red lights where they're working. And they're sort of, you know, kind of staying back and just waiting it appears from this angle for this to develop. And the state police issued a statement saying they're not certain that the suspect is inside, that they were doing a search warrant here. And all of this is just part of these measures that they take, precautionary measures that they take in this when they execute search warrants.
The other thing what our colleague Evan Perez was told was that something -- law enforcement picked up something inside this area, inside one of these homes which prompted all of this response.
Remember, law enforcement was here earlier. They were doing the search warrant. They sort of left and then they came back.
But right now, what we're seeing is really it's just intense high drama of the law enforcement officials here standing back, allowing this to play out, being very careful, obviously, being very concerned over their safety.
The media, just so our viewers know, we are fairly back and we are far back from the home. We are far back from the law enforcement that is all around us. We have officers standing around as well that we can see here in the street monitoring the situation.
And right now, we're just sort of in a wait-and-see situation and we're going to see how this develops.
There's a helicopter over us. We're seeing now some law enforcement officials walking. It's unclear if they're getting to their vehicles, Anderson.
But we're seeing drones in the air. So different equipment that they're using to keep an eye on things as they develop here.
COOPER: Andrew McCabe, just with your experience with the FBI, they certainly have time on their side here. I mean, if this is the location that they feel that they have control of the perimeter of, there's -- I mean, is there a clock for them?
ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Not really, Anderson. It's -- you know, if they were confident that there was someone inside and maybe that there was a danger of hostages or others getting hurt, you know, you might want to take advantage of the element of surprise in your approach to the residence.
And in a situation like that, there is more of an urgency, but that's clearly not the case here. There is -- they have forsaken any element of surprise. They've been yelling at the house for quite some time.
So what you're seeing here is a very slow and steady escalation of technique. They start with the safest, cleanest, lowest risk thing to do, and that is to pull up, stand behind your armored vehicles, and announce your presence, and demand some sort of compliance.
Whether you are confident there is someone in the building or not, you would always do that first. It seems that that technique has exhausted its relevance here, and they seem to be repositioning now to step on to take next steps, which could involve things like sending drones up. We've seen some drones in the air already, sending drones up to get a look in the windows, to try to develop more intelligence about who or what may be going on inside.
[20:10:20]
You could send a -- you could breach an entrance and then send in a robot to increase that intelligence collection with video capability.
The robots can climb stairs. They can open doors. They can do all sorts of things.
You can escalate further into sending a dog in. Typically, that's not done until you are very confident that there is a barricaded subject, and you know where they are in the residence. And then, of course, the last step is a dynamic entry of SWAT operators who are prepared to go in there and take someone out.
Now we have really no reason at this point. We can't confidently say that there is someone in this location.
And it's very possible that the team doesn't know the answer to that question either. They're going to go through this process to try to figure that out in the safest way possible.
COOPER: It is interesting, Andrew, that there were obviously officers at this location previously and presumably did not find anything, and yet returned.
MCCABE: Yes, that's really confounding. You know, there's a number of possibilities here. It could be that they received information from a neighbor, a passerby, some sort of tip that alerted them to the -- to movement on the property or something that looked like somebody had been inside.
It's always possible when you leave a property if you don't continue to secure it, the subject could have returned to the property after they left.
It's also possible -- it's not common, but it does happen, Anderson, that we'll have a tactical team search a location, and the perpetrator hides themselves inside.
Remember in 2017, there was a manhunt for an individual in a national park area. We had SWAT teams from Springfield and Chicago division helping out. They approached what they thought was an abandoned hunting cabin in the middle of the woods.
The Chicago SWAT team searched the entire structure, found nothing. And then as a last step, looked into a crawl space in the attic. And as they removed the panel exposing the crawl space, they took incoming fire from the subject. We had a few folks who were severely injured.
So sometimes perpetrator subjects will hide in a residence as it's being searched, and it's possible to overlook them. So it could have happened here. We don't know, but you have to kind of keep all these possibilities in your head at this point.
COOPER: Mary Ellen O'Toole, profiler, given what we know about the suspect, what points in this person's history stand out to you?
MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER PROFILER FOR THE FBI: Well, there are a number of things about his personality, and I think the first thing that strikes me is that it's very likely that if he's inside the house, he views this as a no-win situation.
And based on what he's done over the last 24, 36 hours, his life, as he knows it, is 100% completely over. And so his outlook on whether this turns out well or doesn't turn out well doesn't really make any difference.
Then you compound that with mental health issues. You compound that with stress. You compound that with whether or not he may be -- he could be using alcohol or drugs, all of that can really make a big difference.
But the outlook right now and how he views this situation is going to be in a very nihilistic way.
COOPER: Brian Todd, what have you been witnessing as we've been talking?
TODD: Well, Anderson, what I can tell you is that the spotlight, as you can probably see, has shifted back to the front of the house. But we have also seen law enforcement vehicles, several of them really, depart the scene.
Now there are law enforcement vehicles still there, and there are still assets being moved around on the ground. But in the meantime, we have just gotten an email from the public information officer for the Maine Department of Public Safety describing what is happening here. And I'll read to it you in part.
Regarding those announcements that were -- you know, on the loudspeaker that we heard, those commands of, you know, "come out with your hands up", this person says -- this is from the Public Information Department of the Maine Department of Public Safety.
They say, "The announcements that are being heard over a loudspeaker are standard search warrant announcements when executing a warrant to ensure the safety of all involved. It is unknown whether Robert Card is in any of the homes law enforcement will search. Law enforcement officials are simply doing their due diligence by tracking down every lead in an effort to locate and apprehend Card."
[20:15:18]
So that does confirm, Anderson, some of what we had been reporting on earlier, that -- and our colleagues, you know, working their sources have said that it is not clear at all whether he is there.
And she has just confirmed -- this public information officer has just confirmed that it is unknown whether he is there or any other residence connected to him.
It's been a very methodical operation here this evening, we can tell you, for last hour and a half or so.
We are in the dark. Just to reiterate, you know, we reported this last hour, but we're in the dark now because when they poured back in here at roughly 7 o'clock, maybe a little bit before 7 o'clock Eastern Time, with all these assets and kind of started to flood the area here, they gave us very strict instructions, turn your lights off because having the lights on is endangering the safety of law enforcement. So that's why we're in the dark here.
And then over the next 30 minutes or so, we witnessed and heard, you know, commands and appeals from a law enforcement officer on a loudspeaker to whoever might have been inside to come out with their hands up. They understood that this could be intimidate intimidating. They don't want anyone else to get hurt, but they wanted them to come out with their hands up and nothing in their hands, and to walk to the front of the truck in the driveway and follow instructions.
But then the dialogue simply stopped, Anderson, probably a good 40 minutes ago. And there has been no dialogue since then. And they've been methodically moving assets kind of on the ground, in the air around that house.
COOPER: And, Brian, is it just one structure on this property? And does the suspect to the -- does the suspect have access to other properties somewhere or family properties, relatives, the like?
TODD: We can tell you that this is one -- appears from our angle to be one structure on this property. We did see law enforcement personnel kind of fanning out to the left of the property when we -- when they first kind of poured their assets back in for the second time tonight.
To the left of the property, it seems to be some kind of a farm field. But, you know, again, when we saw those personnel doing that fanning out, that could be standard procedure just to kind of secure the area or move around.
We don't know what, if any, other properties he has access to. We do know that he owned -- he owns a small powerboat and that the Coast Guard is joining in the search for any suspicious vessels, because they found his vehicle. Of course, we've been reporting that, almost for 24 hours now that they found his vehicle or a vehicle connected to him at a boat landing dock.
So those are the properties that we know he owns. We know he owns a boat, and we know he owns this house.
COOPER: And, Brian, just in terms of what the image that we are showing on the left, that is the house illuminated. On the right, that is, I assume, the vehicle law enforcement truck has the light that's casting the illumination on the house? Is that correct?
TODD: Yes. The object illuminated on the left is the house. The object on the right is a law enforcement vehicle. It looks like a large tactical armored vehicle.
Now, the way the spotlight has been shifting around -- I just heard some kind of a thud, but that may not be anything. The way the spotlight has been shifting around, I don't -- I can't say for sure whether the spotlight has always been operated from that vehicle because the spotlight has really been kind of shifting one way and another and another at very odd angles. So how much flexibility that vehicle would have to do that, I don't know.
COOPER: And, Josh Campbell, just in terms of the larger manhunt, this is said to be the largest manhunt certainly in recent Maine history. Talk a little bit about what other -- what this day has been like, not just the last hour or so that we've been watching this scene.
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we are seeing for ourselves -- and Andy McCabe knows this as well -- you know, working in the FBI, when you these manhunts, you have teams that are constantly moving from location to location based on the flow of information that law enforcement is getting. We happen to be seeing this right now for ourselves on our camera.
And I'll point out, Anderson, I know you mentioned at the top that we are obviously not describing the individual tactical movements of officers for officer safety purposes. It's important for viewers to also know that we are not -- or that state police are also aware of our shot. So, obviously, you know, this is important to make sure that we're not putting them in danger.
But what we're seeing for ourselves on the screen is something that happens time and again where there are no cameras. And that is you have these teams. They get assigned., often multiagency efforts that are working together. Obviously, we know about the -- you know, the host of resources being barred from all these agencies. And they'll get farmed out tips.
[20:20:11]
You know, we're getting something at this location. Let's go check this out. Someone called in they saw something here.
And so this is a process that they go through -- that they've been going through since this occurred now over 24 hours ago, this mass shooting there in Maine.
And so the tips come in. They get the personnel out there.
It is important to note, as Brian was just mentioning, law enforcement has gone out of their way, and our sources that we have been talking to as well have been pointing out that what we're seeing here is standard operating procedure for approaching a residence where someone could be.
There is no indication, they don't have 100% confidence that this person is there, but they're still going to go through the same steps. Unless they get an indication that there is some threat to innocent life inside that building, there is no need in the view of law enforcement to rush into that building, to try to put officers in harm's way. And so they will do exactly what we're seeing now.
There's a lot going on behind the scenes. There is a command post that is operational.
You'll have an on-scene commander who is calling the shots. You know, here is the step we're going take now. Here is the team that is going to do X. Here is the team that is going to do Y.
We know it's not just ground resources, they've also launched drones. We've heard the helicopters that have been overhead.
I was reporting this morning, you know, all these agencies sending resources. The FBI has launched this massive deployment of personnel to include surveillance aircraft. And so they're able to get a good fixed view on what is happening in that residence to include, you know, sophisticated technology that helps them understand what may be happening inside that residence as well.
But unless there's any type of emergent threat, there is no rush on their part. They're going try to clear this residence.
And quite frankly, Anderson, if he is not there, this will be happening time and again throughout the night. These teams will be going and trying to cover every tip that they get in order to try to find this individual.
COOPER: And, Chris Swecker, given your vast experience, what stands out to you about this manhunt thus far?
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Well, yeah, let me step back a step or two here and tell you what's been going on since he was identified.
As soon as that happened, within minutes, a surveillance team was on those houses in that compound. So since that time, it's been closely watched.
You know, they may have come and did the flashbangs in preparation for an entry, but they didn't really leave. I mean, the tactical team may have left for a while, but these houses have always been under surveillance. So it would've been -- they would -- he would have had to have slipped in very quickly after the shooting incidents or he slipped in under their noses, which I doubt happened.
So secondly, law enforcement came to those locations to do two things. One, arrest him if he is there, but I think primarily to execute search warrants.
They had been watching the house. Nothing was happening. It was time to execute the search warrants.
And then somebody must have heard something rustling or maybe some doors were locked that spooked them. Maybe there's a dog in there. Whatever it is, they back out rightfully so. As a former SWATer in Miami for eight years, I know you don't go in and do dynamic entries unless you have to, unless there's a hostage or some other exigent circumstance.
There's no reason to put the tactical people at risk like that. They have shields and vests. But still, this guy has killed 20 -- or 18 people and wounded 13. He is trained. So you don't want to -- you know, there's no need to take the risk.
The other thing that sticks out, Anderson, is you really have the most lethal combination you can have. You know, a firearms instructor who's, I think, severely mentally ill and has been digressing for the last four months. And so he is not going to act rationally. I mean, he planned this well, but he is not going to act rationally.
So I think, you know, that all mitigates towards exactly what law enforcement is doing. Right now, they're being deliberate and methodical. They're going to do this right.
Maybe he's in there, maybe he isn't. If not, they're in it for the long haul.
COOPER: Yes, Chris, this is not a 17-year-old person who ...
SWECKER: No.
COOPER: ... you know, steals their parents' rifle. This is somebody doesn't -- apparently, according to the Army, does not have combat experience. The Army says he was not an instructor -- a weapons instructor in the Army. But clearly, this is somebody who has experience around weapons, and clearly, a mental health history as well.
SWECKER: He does. And, you know, some history of domestic abuse, restraining orders. Again, the lifestyle, he had some trouble with the military on his last training exercise. He was hospitalized for two weeks.
It's just hard to believe that the military doctors -- I hate to say this, but didn't do a better job of diagnosing whatever it is he has, because he was practically screaming for help. I mean, he -- you know, he's acting out and doing the things that he was doing, red -- flashing red, as I like to say.
[20:25:05]
So, you know, this will be postmortem and there'll be after-action studies on this one.
COOPER: We're going take a short break and we'll return to the scene in the story next. I'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We're looking at the scene right now in Bowdoin, Maine, the home of mass shooting suspect Robert Card. Authorities, including the FBI, turning up there early in the 7 o'clock hour, the second time that they had been at the property today. But less than 90 minutes ago, we heard the command "come out with your hands up." We have heard nothing since, and it is not clear whether there is anybody in this home.
Back with our correspondents and law enforcement personnel. Also joining us the Mayor of Auburn, Maine, where this is a shelter -- where there's a shelter-in-place order tonight.
Mayor Levesque, thank you for being with us. I'm sorry we are talking in these circumstances. Are you learning anything new, any new information about the investigation or the ongoing manhunt?
JASON LEVESQUE, MAYOR OF AUBURN, MAINE: Anderson, thanks for having me on. We're learning as we're watching CNN right now. It's that fluid and dynamic of a situation. So things are happening in real-time.
So we're on this. We're aware of everything, and we're all in this together.
COOPER: Can you talk about the effect this has had on the community?
LEVESQUE: It's sobering. It's surreal. Obviously, we're still under a shelter-in-place order.
Right now, our focus is on the victims, their families and making sure that they have the mental health need and the physical needs in order to get through this time.
And, you know, I've been talking to a lot of constituents, both in Auburn and in Lewiston, and it's just shocking. And that is going to wear off. And part of that is getting closure on this first chapter of our recovery, if you would, and that's finding the suspect, bringing him to justice, and then we can focus on closure.
COOPER: In terms of the shelter in place order, how long has that been in place for you?
LEVESQUE: We're looking at -- actually, right around 24 hours now.
COOPER: And I know you were at the Family Reunification Center this morning. I cannot imagine the ripple effects of this among families in this community.
LEVESQUE: This community is tight. Auburn and Lewiston are twin cities. We're separated by a river about 100 yards. The bowling alley that we all go to is in Lewiston. The restaurant that we love to go to is there as well. We all are touched. We all know someone.
And last night, early this morning at the reunification center, I saw old friends that were coming in. Either as family looking for other family, or as witnesses coming in to be reunified with their loved ones. And it was something I'll carry with me. I think anybody that was present will carry it with them for the rest of their lives.
COOPER: What's your message to the folks in your town tonight?
LEVESQUE: Persevere. We are Mainers. Stay vigilant. Practice good situational awareness at this point. Call the state police, tip one.
If you see anything out of the ordinary, you know, we're focusing on voting right now and your coverage, everybody else's coverage, but that's not just, that's not to say he is absolutely there. Just stay vigilant and it's going to take all of us coming together, especially -- and I have to get my hats off.
We haven't talked enough about our first responders. I talked to a lot of our officers and paramedics last night. They all came in on duty, off duty. They rushed to that scene. They were transporting people. We saved lives. They saved lives last night. So trust in them to get this chapter closed and so we can move forward.
COOPER: Mayor Jason Levesque, thank you. And the mayor makes a really important point that we do not know if the suspect is in this property. And anybody in this community watching this or following this should be aware that it's not clear the suspect has been isolated in this property. He may be elsewhere. And obviously, their shelter in place orders those should be heeded.
Brian Todd, what's the situation now?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, I can tell you that a large law enforcement vehicle has repositioned, and we have to be careful not to give away too much tactical information here for safety reasons. A large law enforcement vehicle has repositioned.
The spotlight, and you can now see it, this kind of shifting around in the front of the house. Again, they're making some adjustments here. There's a spotlight. There you go. You can see it going right. There's another kind of -- there's a brighter spotlight than we've seen.
But now has kind of gone back and forth to that front window and it's on the window now. And then sometimes they will pull it away. But there is a large law enforcement vehicle that has repositioned and we did see personnel on the ground near it. And that's pretty much all I can give as far as specifics, but they are repositioning things.
And again, this has all been, I have to emphasize, this has all been very methodical. So it's -- and we don't want to give a sense of urgency that's not there. But they have been, you know, very methodical in the way they've moved around, the way they've moved the spotlight around and repositioned law enforcement vehicles, which they have just done.
And you can see the spotlight probing at the front of the house. It'll probe a little bit, then it'll cut off.
COOPER: And Brian Todd, it's important to point out, this person, we don't know the level of planning this person put into the murders that, that he is accused of being committing. We don't know how long he has been planning this. His family has talked about this acute mental health episode not being a kind of a long term mental health history.
[20:35:00] This is something that, according to a number of people, occurred just within the last couple of months. But this person may have -- we know he has weapons training, certainly. We know there are eyewitnesses who know him have said he's comfortable out in the wilderness as well. There's certainly a lot of woods, I mean, there's a lot of places, given the geography that he could be hiding.
TODD: That's absolutely right. And the lay of the land here is that it's very rural. There are forests and fields all around here. He does own a property with hundreds of acres around it. We are not sure if this is that property or if this is another one. But we do know that. We do know that he's very familiar with the area.
And we do know that law enforcement has been here at least twice today to take a look at this place. And the first time they came, they used flashbangs when they approached the house and possibly went inside. You mentioned his training. One of his former colleagues in the U.S. Army Reserves has told CNN that he was and is a very skilled marksman and outdoorsman, that he was the best shooter in their unit.
So that also reflects, you know, what law enforcement has to deal with if they are going to approach him in any way, shape or form, or if they ever pin him down. You mentioned Anderson, the planning. I think what we -- you're right, we do not know specifically whether he planned this in detail or what he planned.
But what we can tell viewers is again about the timeline of the shootings, the first 911 calls from the bowling alley of an active shooter came at 6:56 p.m. Eastern time. The second set of 911 calls came only 12 minutes later from that bar. And so what does that indicate? It indicates that he very likely moved with some speed from one location to another.
And as our John Miller has reported, that he has broken up with a long-time girlfriend recently. That those are two places that they were known to frequent. This is according to law enforcement sources who spoke to John.
So what you can put together from that is that he knew both of these places. And that again, if you put, you know, you piece together the timeline of the 911 calls, it wasn't very long between sets of shootings last night. And we are told that it's only about a 10-minute drive from one of those places to the other.
And when the 911 calls came, just 12 minutes apart from each location. That tells you that he moved with some haste and some speed. Does that indicate that he had real purpose there and he knew exactly, you know, where he was going to go and how fast he was going to get there? Possibly. Possibly.
But that's what we can tell you about kind of how this unfolded and what we can piece together about any possible planning here.
COOPER: Chris Swecker, given your experience with the FBI and the hunt for Eric Rudolph in the woods, the fact that this person is said to be a good marksman. The fact that this person is comfortable out in the wilderness and given again the geography and even having a property of more than 100 acres that he has access to, he could be anywhere.
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: He could be. I mean, there are some similarities with Eric Rudolph. I mean, he had about the same amount of lead time when his car was discovered. He probably had a few hours and he had a plan. I still think -- I'm very skeptical that he's in that house. I still think he's out in the woods somewhere in a preposition, pre-supplied area, maybe several.
There may be a hunting -- small hunting cabin somewhere because it's getting cold. It's going to be even colder coming up. So, you know, his planning was very precise in the execution of what he did. He hit two locations. That creates mass confusion for law enforcement.
Information's coming in every direction. It takes hours to get a command post and an intelligence operation set up. So he took advantage of that confusion that he created and he escaped. He always -- to me, he had a plan. I don't know how far out that plan extended, but I believe it extended as far out as escaping and getting into a area where he knew more about the terrain than law enforcement.
And I think the best assets, if he isn't in that house, the best assets are going to be wildlife officers and game wardens who know that area very well. And know the cabins, know all the little nooks and crannies where he could hide. That's exactly what Eric Rudolph did. He had pre-positioned everything.
He was prepared and he had hunted and fished in that area, grew marijuana. So, I see some eerie similarities here. Outdoorsman, hunter, trained in the military. Both of them very similar.
COOPER: And also, Chris, I mean, that -- it would be critical then for information, his friends, his family might be able to provide of favorite cabin, favorite fishing spot, you know, trails he --
SWECKER: Right.
COOPER: -- frequented areas he likes to go.
[20:40:17]
SWECKER: That's absolutely true. I mean, they've done a full profile on him by now. You know, his social network has brought whoever he hunted with, family members, friends, going back to the military, buddies in the military, you know, dissecting his entire life.
It doesn't take that long with the technology we have now and the resources they have on the scene. So, you know, all of that will be helpful. And, you know, there's a thing called a geographical profile. We did that with Eric Rudolph. And we combined it with -- the geographical profiler said, he's here. This is his personality.
He's going to be somewhere he's familiar, doesn't want to go meander around the country. And so there is also the combination of that and no credible sightings elsewhere. So, part of this is a suppression operation as much as it is a manhunt. I mean, they're both at the same time. They don't want him to hurt anyone else. Obviously, he's dangerous. If they can keep him in the woods and suppress him, that's part -- they've achieved part of their goal.
COOPER: Brian Todd, let's go to you. What's happening?
TODD: Anderson, we have a -- the line of -- I'm counting seven law enforcement vehicles, some of them trucks, some of them just sedans moving past us. They came from the other side of where the house is on the road and are moving past us away from the house. It does not -- I'm not sure if they're completely extracting, but they are moving away from it.
But we do still see at least one, I'm sorry, at least two law enforcement vehicles at the house. One vehicle is in the driveway and there are other vehicles up the street. That spotlight that you -- we've been talking about for now, the last two hours is still there. So they are not completely extracting, but several law enforcement vehicles slowly methodically moving past us and away from the house.
And just to point out again for our viewers that when we first encountered the situation at roughly 7:00 Eastern Time and the influx of these law enforcement vehicles and personnel kind of approach the house. They came right up to us. The law enforcement people did and said they demanded that we shut all of our camera lights off.
We've been in the dark since then, saying that our camera lights were creating a danger for law enforcement. So we've been filming as you've seen in the dark since then. And we're about 250, 300 yards away from the house of the suspect. Again, more vehicles moving out of this area now. More law enforcement vehicles moving out of this area, but a couple of them we can see still in position.
COOPER: Chris Swecker, you said you doubt he is inside. We've been saying we don't know all along whether he's inside. The fact that assets are moving away would certainly indicate they don't believe the situation is as acute as they did earlier.
SWECKER: Yes, and they may be waiting for daylight. It may not make much sense. They got to go in the house at some point and search the house. There may be evidence in there that they desperately need. So they're not abandoning the residents or the compound. They may just be pulling out for the night and deciding if they're going to make an entry, they'll make it in the morning.
But I -- you know, the reason I don't think he's in there, and I could be wrong, is that I think he was too elaborate in his planning throughout this whole operation or I shouldn't call it an operation. This savage slaughter that he -- that took place, that for him to go just wandering back to his house -- and again, it's been under surveillance since they identified him as the suspect -- is I don't know how he would have slipped in there.
I know they're being very cautious and as they well should be. And I think they're, you know, it's prudent to step back here and maybe just wait for daylight. COOPER: Mary Ellen O'Toole, you know, we -- there's the reports of him self-reporting that he was hearing voices over the summer. He was watched for about a two-week period or so at a facility. Taken there after reporting hearing voices. What does that tell you about what may be going on with him?
MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT-PROFILER: Well, that would certainly suggest that he could have some mental health issues. I'm always somewhat skeptical of self-reported information because I can -- basically, I can tell you anything and it may or may not be true. Unfortunately, that's what mental health professionals oftentimes have to work with.
So, you know, a full understanding of what -- how they diagnosed him, how they treated him, all of those things become really important. So they do have a much better understanding of what's going on with him.
[20:45:15]
And even right now, what they really have to be doing, and this would be, you know, people from my old unit and the hostage negotiators, they have to be doing some kind of real time assessment if he is in there to be able to monitor how is all this impacting on him.
What are the possibilities that he's destabilizing, and when that happens, when you deteriorate, if it's compounded by mental health issues, your ability to think critically and to make good decisions can go right out the door.
And so, while we're looking at all the trucks and all the activity, I believe that they have people behind the scenes who are in touch with people that know him well and can monitor and discuss all the changes and how all of this activity could be impacting him, whether he's there or he could be watching it from afar. But that becomes really important to get that real time assessment of him.
COOPER: And Shimon Prokupecz, thank you very much. Brian Todd, Josh Campbell, Chris Swecker, thank you. Mary Ellen O'Toole, we're obviously going to continue to monitor this situation.
Just ahead, we remember the victims, one being held for trying to save lives, another member of the local deaf community. Randi Kaye joins us with more on those who have been identified so far. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:05]
COOPER: Looking in the home of mass shooting suspect Robert Card in Bowdoin, Maine, as Brian Todd reported just a few moments ago, a number of law enforcement vehicles have begun leaving the property. A number, though, do remain on the scene and unclear where the Card was there.
We do not want to end the hour, though, without telling you what we know about some of the 18 lives he is now charged with taking last night. Randi Kaye joins us with some of their stories. Randi?
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, as of now, we've been able to confirm the names of three of the victims killed in the shooting. One of them is Joseph Walker. This video from his Facebook page shows him in happier times.
His father says Joseph was the manager at Schemengees Bar and Grill in Lewiston. His dad says he waited more than 14 hours for word about his son. Here's what his father told our affiliate WGME.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEROY WALKER, CITY COUNCILOR IN AUBURN, MAINE: My son actually -- because he's manager of the bar and everything else -- picked up a butcher knife and went after the gunman to try to stop him from killing other people. And that's when he shot my son to death, trying to save some more lives that he ended up losing his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: His father says Joseph Walker was married with two stepchildren and described him as a great father and a great husband. He also said Joseph was the kind of guy who was loved by everyone and always helped other people. His father wasn't at all surprised that his son put himself in danger to try and save others.
As mentioned, eight people were killed at Schemengees Bar and Grill. Forty-year-old Bryan MacFarlane was one of them as well. His sister told CNN that MacFarlane was participating in a cornhole tournament at the bar when he was shot and killed.
And it's worth noting, Anderson, that MacFarlane wouldn't have been able to hear the shots fired. He was deaf and usually went to hang out at Schemengees on Wednesdays. His sister said people from the deaf community would gather there to play cornhole on Wednesday nights.
And according to his sister, MacFarlane was one of the first deaf people in the state of Vermont to get his commercial trucking license. She said he worked as a truck driver for several years, and that he also loved riding his motorcycle and hanging out with his dog. MacFarlane leaves behind his mother and his sister.
And 53-year-old Tricia Asselin also died in the shooting, Anderson. She worked part time at Just-In-Time Recreation in Lewiston. That is where seven victims died. She wasn't working last night, but she was there bowling.
And according to her family, Asselin ran to call 911 when the gunfire started, and that's when she was shot and killed. Her sister was there with her, but survived the shooting. And that sister, Anderson, told CNN that her sister did things for everyone, including raising money for people that she didn't even know.
She played golf. She worked three jobs, according to her sister, and she also leaves behind a 25-year-old son. Tricia Asselin's brother, DJ Johnson, also talked with CNN, Anderson, describing his sister as the rock of the family. Anderson?
COOPER: Our thoughts are with those families and all the others affected right now. He's been charged with eight counts of murder. Likely, that will be increased but a search warrant obviously has been has been put out.
Randi, thanks. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:56:56]
COOPER: As we look at the home of mass shooting suspect Robert Card, I want to quickly go back to CNN's Brian Todd who's there. Brian?
TODD: Right, Anderson. We have seen more repositioning of law enforcement vehicles in the last few minutes. We also see personnel on the ground moving around again very methodically.
The spotlight has not really shifted, but there is a vehicle, a law enforcement vehicle and a large one, I should say, that is in the driveway there that you can see in our camera shot. So what we can tell you is that a short time ago, a stream of seven law enforcement vehicles left the area. They left a couple of law enforcement vehicles here.
We have just seen personnel on the ground carrying flashlights, but they were moving away from the house and then into vehicles. So not quite indicating maybe that they're packing up, but they could be getting ready to extract from the area. And you see another vehicle there that is on the move. But we'll see where they go.
You know, again, this has been an ongoing fluid situation now for close to the last two hours where they -- in the early part of that sequence, they were, on a loud speaker, trying to appeal to whoever was in the house, possibly to come out with their hands up, with nothing in their hands, to follow their instructions.
They were almost making a personal appeal to whoever might be in there saying, we know this could be intimidating for you. We don't want anyone else to get hurt. You know, in kind of almost appealing on a personal level to whoever might have been there.
So that's kind of how it's played out. No indication that anyone has been in there and law enforcement now kind of methodically moving around some personnel seeming to be leaving now.
COOPER: And Chris Swecker, just in the final moments, assuming he is not in the house, obviously, they're going to stay there through the night and assess things in the morning. Where does the manhunt now stand?
SWECKER: Well, I think in the morning, they'll breach that house and conduct their search. And they'll do it very deliberately and tactically. But if he's not in there, they've got a large perimeter they've got to deal with. If he's in that woodsy area, which is vast, they've got their work cut out for them. It's going to be a long, cold night for law enforcement.
COOPER: And Josh Campbell, your thoughts?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. We haven't heard any all clear sign from law enforcement here, but I've been talking with FBI SWAT operators who don't have knowledge about this case, but they've been describing the tactics.
It tracks exactly what my friend Chris Swecker was saying earlier. They're likely to keep some presence there until they get the light of day to finally give that all clear. But finally, it's important to note that all those assets that we saw move out, their work isn't done.
They will now be used to go after additional tips time and time again, following those leads throughout the evening, through the shift change with all of these various agencies. They're working, bringing all the resale sources that they have to bear. And so they get that one tip that actually leads them --
COOPER: Yes.
SWECKER: -- them to the suspect, Anderson.
COOPER: Josh Campbell, Brian Todd. Chris Swecker, thank you very much.
Just moments ago, we identified another victim, bowling alley manager, Tommy Conrad. He was 34 years old. He survived by his nine-year-old daughter. His family confirming the sad news to CNN affiliate WMTW.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
