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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Trump, Harris Campaigns at Odds Over Debate Rules; Trump on Officials Behind Afghanistan Pullout: You Got to Fire Them, Like on The Apprentice; Gen H.R. McMaster Details his Time in the Trump White House in New Book. Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster's New Book Gives Blistering Account Of His 13 Months As National Security Adviser In Trump White House; Justice Department Seeks To Revive Trump's Classified Documents Case, Defends Role Of Special Counsel; Scheduled SpaceX Launch Delayed By 24 Hours. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired August 26, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANASTASIA STOGNEI RUSSIA CORRESPONDENT, FINANCIAL TIMES: ...popular there. She invests in cryptocurrency and she uses cryptocurrency and she advocates for cryptocurrency, but this is basically aid.

So, also some Russian journalists, even propaganda journalists tried to reach out to her family and they said that she left Russia just two years ago and they maintain no connection with her. So, she's Russian national, but that's about it.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: It's unbelievable how little we know about something that could have such amazingly important strategic implications for Russia and the world.

Thanks so much, appreciate your time, Anastasia.

And thanks so much all of you for joining us. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:41]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360: His campaign calls it Trump on steroids and says it's all hands on deck as the former president kicks off a new blitz through battleground states starting today in Michigan.

Also tonight, my conversation with former Trump National Security adviser, H.R. McMaster about his new book, the complex portrait he paints of his old boss and whether he would ever worked in the Trump White House again.

Plus, special counsel, Jack Smith points a finger at the judge who dismissed the classified documents case as he asks a higher court to revive it.

Good evening, thanks for joining us.

We begin tonight with what might be described as the first day of the rest of Donald Trump's campaign. It follows a week largely dominated by the Democratic Convention and several weeks abuzz surrounding his new opponents.

Now, we're told to expect him to hold multiple events a week and visit two states a day.

Today began in Arlington National Cemetery where he honored the 13 American troops killed in a suicide bombing three years ago during the chaotic pull-out from Afghanistan.

Speaking later in a social media posting and then at Detroit he incorporated today's anniversary into his campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R) FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As vice president, Kamala bragged that she was the last person in the room. She was the tough one. She was the last person in the room during that disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan decision.

Caused by Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, the humiliation in Afghanistan set off the collapse of American credibility and respect all around the world

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: The former president also said he thinks the country is closer now to World War III than ever. He called for the establishment of a Space National Guard to complement the Space Force he launched as president and repeated past exaggerations about the military being in his words, out of ammunition.

He also secured the endorsement as expected to former Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, who is helping him prepare for his first debate with Vice President Harris, if in fact that comes to pass because the two sides seem to be debating the rules of it at the moment.

CNN's Kristen Thomas is traveling with Trump campaign. Oh, excuse me, Kristen Holmes, she joins us now from Detroit with new reporting on the debate and more.

Kristen, I'm sorry, it's been a long couple of weeks.

So, there's been a lot of back and forth regarding the mics for the September debate. Where does this now stand?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the two sides appear to be at an impasse. So here's what we know, when the original debate was between President Joe Biden and Donald Trump, they agreed to the same rules they agreed to with the CNN debate, which was that the mics would be muted when the other candidate was speaking.

Now, Donald Trump's team thought that that debate went well, that first debate with CNN, and they want to mimic those results.

Kamala Harris' team is saying, well, new candidate and new debate rules, we don't want those mics muted. I do want to stress here that a lot of this is posturing, as well as

them trying to position their candidate on both sides in the best light.

Now, Donald Trump seems to a little bit step on the argument that his campaign was trying to make about keeping those rules same. Take a listen to what he said when he was in Virginia earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't know, it doesn't matter to me. I'd rather have it probably on, but the agreement was that it would be the same as it was last time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: One thing to be clear here about, Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, three weeks ago, when Kamala Harris was moved to the top of the ticket and Donald Trump's seem to back away from the debate overall, Kamala Harris was saying, wait, you can't do that. You already agreed to this debate in these terms, it doesn't matter who the candidate is and Donald Trump's team was saying no, everything has changed.

Now, the two of them have swapped roles. Kamala Harris is saying everything has changed, there are new rules and Donald Trump's team is saying, we want it to be the same to what we agreed to with President Joe Biden.

Again, a lot of this is posturing. We will obviously see how this plays out. The big question is, what this means for September 10th and will they both actually be on the stage?

COOPER: Yes. He's also obviously been bashing ABC News, which is the site for the debate, we'll see. What are you hearing from the Trump team regarding the former president's campaign schedule for the weeks ahead?

HOLMES: So, I want to be very clear about one thing. Yes. Donald Trump's team is saying that they are going to ramp up their campaign. That it is going to be Donald Trump on steroids, that it's going to be multiple stops in a day.

But we have to include the caveat, that we have heard this before and multiple times during this campaign, that he was going to ramp it up, that he was going to change his posture and yet, we haven't really seen that.

Now, this week has been a little bit different. He still does have two down days, Tuesday and Wednesday, he is going to be in Florida, but he is not visiting many battleground states. Of course, he was in Michigan today. He is going to be back in Michigan next week. He is also going to be holding this town hall in Wisconsin. They actually just sent out a notification saying Tulsi Gabbard was going to be the moderator.

I think that event is one to watch and here is why. We know that Donald Trump has had a hard time getting his footing now that Kamala Harris is at the top of the ticket. So they are trying different kinds of events.

You saw last week, it was a series of what they called messaging events which meant smaller crowds, smaller venues, one topic, Donald Trump often doesn't stay on that one topic, but it was shorter speeches, not this kind of all over the place, ranting type of rally speech.

Now, they're trying this town hall. It is not being mediated overall by a news network the way they normally are. CNN, Fox News is doing another one with him, another day. It is just being done by Tulsi Gabbard. We'll see if that is a way for him to get his messaging to voters and then he'll be in Pennsylvania on Friday.

We'll see what happens the week after that. I always have to caveat it, Anderson, because again, we've heard this before that he's going to ramp it up and then it kind of goes back to the slower pace. We'll see what happens in the coming weeks.

COOPER: All right, Kristen Holmes, thanks so much.

Joining us is Ashley Etienne, former communications director for the vice president, also Trump 2016 deputy communications director, Bryan Lanza and CNN political commentator, Alyssa Farah Griffin.

So, Alyssa, the Harris campaign, obviously thinks keeping the mics hot at the debate would be to their benefit. Do you agree?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and it shows how much the Joe Biden calculations are different from Kamala Harris'. Kamala Harris is a confident debater. She's a former prosecutor and I think their calculation is they want to see Donald Trump get a little unhinged.

They want the American public to hear if there's crosstalk, if there's name-calling, if there's some kind of, you know, goading her into something, while she has the floor.

This is a change from the rules that were agreed to, but I also think that Donald Trump's message on Truth Social about this is kind of laying a pretext to back out of the debate if he wants to.

He's been going after the moderators. He's been going after the rules because he knows this is a very different candidate than he has ever had to debate before.

She's the younger candidate. She's got the momentum. It's not we expected to be against. They can easily resolve this. The easy thing would be either keep the rules as they are and have a press pool in so that the American public knows what is said off air.

I don't see any reason the Harris campaign backs out, but I think Donald Trump is keeping that door open.

COOPER: Bryan, do you think he might back out? BRYAN LANZA, FORMER DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, TRUMP 2016

CAMPAIGN: No. They're doing debates. I'm not worried about that. I think it's important to remember that Donald Trump debated Hillary Clinton in 2016 and everybody felt she had momentum and they felt she was a dimensional candidate and he -- the viewers, at least the voters ultimately thought he won those debates.

So, I think he's looking forward to it. I think from his standpoint, it is like listen, a deal, is a deal, is a deal. You made the deal, you wanted the CNN rules, we are doing the CNN rules on ABC. Fine. The Harris debate said fine, if that's the final state, now they're coming back and wanting to change the rules and Trump being like a businessman and his campaign been like a business is looking for an opportunity to try to leverage a second debate.

How important is it that you want these mics muted? If you want them really muted or if you want them unmuted, well, let's get a second debate on NBC. I think this is all just a strategy to try to get more debates and that's a good thing.

COOPER: Ashley, do you think the Trump campaign actually wants more debates and why do you think the Harris campaign wants to change the rules around the microphone and said their mics will be on?

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, BIDEN -HARRIS 2020 CAMPAIGN: I mean, absolutely not. He doesn't want it with Kamala Harris. He doesn't want more than one debate with her. That's why to Alyssa's point, he is trying to you get out of this one. He definitely doesn't want a second.

Here's the thing. The one thing, you know, his ego could not take is to be beaten by a woman.

And what I do know about Kamala Harris is a couple of things. One, she suffers absolutely no fools. Two: She's not making the same mistakes that Democrats have historically made. She's not going to pull any punches about but his record and she's going to lean into her own.

And the third thing, is this split-screen will really say the entire story, will tell the entire story. You'll have one guy who look old, angry, and small up against the woman who looks like the very promise of America.

So, I don't think Donald Trump really wants it with Kamala Harris, that's why he keeps trying in a back out of this thing and making excuse after excuse after excuse. And based on what I know about her, I wouldn't want to debate her either.

COOPER: Alyssa, the Harris campaign put out this video today in response to the former president apparently waffling on the debate. I just want to play this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS CHANNEL ANCHOR: Why not debate her? TRUMP: We will wait, but because they already know everything. They're

saying, Oh Trump is not doing the debate, that's the same thing they say now. I mean, right now, I say, why should I do a debate, I'm leading in the polls and everybody knows me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And yes, so they put a chicken sound over this. I bring this up just because its notable how quicker the Harris campaign is to put out videos like this. I don't think the Biden campaign probably would have put out a thought to put out a video like this. But how quickly they put out something like this. I don't know its effective or not, but videos, memes, this is a campaign that seems for more nimble, even though a lot of the same people are involved with it.

GRIFFIN: Yes, and Donald Trump's never run against a campaign like this. In fact, his team was always the one that was a lot quicker on social media. They would kind of play into the meme wars and have fast responses. He's kind of met his match in this.

Now to be fair to Trump in these debates, listen, in 2016, he won against a very formidable foe with Hillary Clinton, and he performed well in those debates and obviously won. But this is different, keep in mind this election, he is running against an effective communicator; as a former president post-January 6th, who is now a felon.

There are things he's going to have to answer for in this debate that are so fundamentally different than 2016 where he had no record and he could just give a vision and an idea of what he wanted. And I think he's afraid of that.

We never really saw that moment in the Biden-Trump debate where he was called out on his history of sexual abuse or the fact that he had these felony convictions and I think that's something that he's really dreading having to face.

COOPER: Bryan, I want to play some of what the former president said today when asked if he was preparing for a debate with Harris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm not spending a lot of time on it. I think my whole life I've been preparing for a debate. Yes, you can go in and you can have all sorts of sessions and I watched Mitt Romney go in and he worked so hard. Four weeks, he locked himself into a log cabin and then he developed lock jaw, he couldn't speak.

You have to be real, you can't cram knowledge into your head for 30 years of knowledge in one week. So, you know, there's a little debate prep, but I've always done it more or less the same way and you have to know your subject. And I think I know my subject. I think I know it better than anybody

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: I mean, it is interesting his approach to debates. I mean,

there have been some who have said, well, look, he prepares more than he says and that may be the case. But he definitely -- I mean, if you look at his debates over the years, he says you have to be yourself and he, whether you like it or not, he is that in these debates, he shows himself, he shows who he is again, whether that's a good thing or not.

LANZA: Yes. Listen with respect to debates, I mean, you have to remember Donald Trump is very comfortable with his skin. He's very comfortable taking risks because he's been in the camera for a heck of a long time.

So this is a very safe space for him. I mean, he is an effective communicator, at least he's always felt he has been and he is campaign's best communicator.

He over performs in debates from a traditional Republican operative standpoint. I am always, always nervous when he does these debates. I always felt that he didn't do as well as he should have done. And then you sort of look at the polling a couple of days later after it stabilizes it would turnout, he did okay.

He's just different at debates. I mean, he decimated Hillary, he didn't do so well against Biden. Hillary is exponentially stronger and more a debater than Kamala Harris. To hear the Kamala Harris is an excellent communicator, I think that's a joke at this point. She's literally avoiding every possible press opportunity in existence, so she doesn't have to communicate her message to the people.

So, I mean, I think we're ready for debates, we want more.

COOPER: Well, for someone who is a joke. I mean, she certainly seems to have the Trump campaign freaked out and trying to sweat it out or sweating it out right now.

But again, I hear your point about not doing interviews. She has not done a sit down -- formal sit-down interview, and obviously, I think she said that they will do that by the end of this month. We'll see about that.

LANZA: Which nothing is scheduled by the way and it's in a couple of days.

COOPER: Yes. Well, we shall see. Everyone stick around. We're going to have more.

Coming up next, my conversation with former Trump National Security adviser, H.R. McMaster, including about today's solemn anniversary and how a shift in the former president's Afghanistan strategy in the words of McMaster in his book set the stage for the humiliating pullout that the Biden administration executed in Afghanistan.

Later, what to make of Jack Smith's chances for reviving the classified documents case and the case he's making for it with the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:18:00]

COOPER: As we noted at the top of the broadcast, today marks the third year anniversary since the suicide bombing at Abbey Gate in Afghanistan. These 13 American service members were killed on that day.

The former president talks about it on the campaign trail in Michigan. Speaking to a meeting of the National Guard Association in Detroit, he promised to fire every senior official responsible. He did not however, invoke President Truman firing General MacArthur or President Lincoln relieving General McClellan and said he invoked himself and his old reality show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The voters are going to fire Kamala and Joe on November 5th, we hope, and when I take office we'll ask for the resignations of every single official.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: We'll get the resignations of every single senior official who touched the Afghanistan calamity to be on my desk at noon on Inauguration Day.

You know, you have to fire people. You have to fire people when they do a bad job. We never fire anybody. We have to fire them like on "The Apprentice." You're fired, you did a lousy job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And joining us now is retired Army Lieutenant General, H.R. McMaster who served as the former president's national security adviser from 2017 through 2018. His new book on his time in the White House is "At War with Ourselves: My Tour of Duty in Trump White House".

General McMaster thanks for being with us.

I am in the midst of the book and I'm really enjoying it. You write -- he says you've got to fire everybody who touched this policy.

As you write in the book, he touched this policy. He had a lot of hands on it. You write in the book, "Trump established the first sound long-term low-cost strategy for Afghanistan and South Asia but then, abandoned that strategy and replicated the Obama policy of negotiating withdrawal timeline with a terrorist organization, setting the stage for the Biden administration's humiliating retreat from Kabul in August 2021."

[20:20:17]

You were out of the White House at the time that this was done. You write that you "watched with incredulity and revulsion as he directed an envoy to negotiate withdrawal with the Taliban." You would not have advised him to do that

GEN. H.R. MCMASTER, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Absolutely and I advised him to do quite the opposite of that in the run up to what was his decision in August of 2017, and I tell that story in detail in the book about how it really Trump made the tough decision and made, I think what was the best available decision and put into place in 2017, the first sustainable reasoned approach to Afghanistan.

The war by that point had not been a sixteen-year war. It had been a one-year war, fought 16 times over. But you know, Anderson, he couldn't stick with the decision. He didn't stick with the decision. And I think people were in his ear and manipulated him into with these mantras of end the endless wars and Afghanistan is a graveyard of empires and so forth.

COOPER: So when he is critical of the Biden administration's withdrawal which I guess, the Biden administration could have not gone along with the deal that was made Biden did push back the -- Trump had set a guarantee withdrawal date May 1st. Biden pushed it back to August. Trump had cut troop levels down drastically, even though the Taliban was still attacking, the Taliban had allowed terrorist organizations again to have a home in their government, in their country, but Trump had his hand on -- I mean, does Trump bear part of the responsibility for what happened?

MCMASTER: Oh, yes. I mean, so the whole premise of talking to the Taliban before you leave Afghanistan, why the heck were even doing that?

COOPER: He was going to invite them to Camp David.

MCMASTER: Right, even the Obama administration, when they made the mistake of pulling all of our troops out of Iraq in 2010, which really set conditions for the rise of ISIS and so forth by 2014.

The Obama administration didn't negotiate with Al-Qaeda in Iraq on the way out. And so, if we were going to leave, why not just leave.

What happened in these series of negotiations and concessions to the Taliban is we got through the Afghans under the bus on the way out.

COOPER: They cut the Afghan government out of those negotiations, right?

MCMASTER: Absolutely, so that was mistake one, then forced them to release 5,000 of some of the most heinous people on Earth. And then began -- which is under who's call?

COOPER: The Trump administration forced the Afghan government to release 5,000 Taliban.

MCMASTER: Correct, and it also stopped the active targeting of the Taliban, which President Trump again to his credit in 2017, had restored because he was convinced like how the heck does this make any sense to give your enemy a timeline for your withdrawal and then say now I'm going to negotiate a for a favorable settlement.

COOPER: I mean, so it raises the question about the atmosphere within the White House, which you write a lot about. The portrait you paint of dysfunction in the White House from sort of management perspective, is pretty alarming.

You say Trump pitted people against each other instead of building collaborative teams, you say it was administration at war with itself. Do you have any reason to believe that if there's another Trump administration, that it would be any different because doesn't -- I mean doesn't that tone get set by the commander-in-chief?

MCMASTER As a historian too, Anderson, I realized that that was not unprecedented, right. So, one of the things that gave me solace as always in that position was that, I think about the first Reagan administration, how tumultuous that was.

And so, I knew that this was really nothing new. It happens in all administrations, but in the Trump administration, I think everything was magnified.

COOPER: One of the things you said that has gotten a lot of pickup. You told your wife, "After over a year in the job. I cannot understand Putin's hold on Trump." But in the book towards the end of the book you actually provide some insight may be on why the former president does seem to seek the praise and approval of strongmen.

You're write: "I came to see Trump's embrace of Duterte," who has that point was the kind of strongman leading the Philippines, "and his berating of me as connected to his struggle for self-worth."

"If he was accepted by strongmen like Duterte, Putin, and Xi, he might convince others and especially himself that he was strong." That's really interesting.

MCMASTER: Well, I think, I had some time to reflect on it and I'm trying to explain really the strength in some of the aspects of the president's character, but also the vulnerabilities and of course, at times I was reluctant to write some of this stuff.

I don't want to give if he is reelected, kind of a playbook of how you can maybe manipulate Donald Trump.

COOPER: Every leader knows, every reporter who interviews Trump knows. I mean, I learned this early on back in the first go round. He is most susceptible to flattery of any public figure I've ever interviewed. And I think every world leader knows this.

MCMASTER: Right.

COOPER: I mean, you compliment Trump in an interview. You can then ask several questions which are aggressive, that he won't get as annoyed by because you've complimented the size of his crowd or whatever

MCMASTER: Right. Yes. So, what I what I hope is the president will learn from his first experience, understand Vladimir Putin, for example, will never be his friend. He has real friends among our allies who he ought to value higher and value those relationships higher.

And to recognize once again, as he did and I tell the story in the book about how President Trump came to the conclusion that we needed to punish Russia, to inflict cost on Russia beyond the cost that they consider when they act aggressively against us and our allies.

And so, in that first year of the Trump administration, he puts more sanctions on Russian entities and individuals than the previous eight years of the Obama administration. He closes two consulates, he expels scores of Russian undeclared agents.

COOPER: Although, at the same time, he is upset that you weren't -- that the US wasn't expelling as many people as Russia was expelling.

MCMASTER: Right, and as the Europeans were expelling that made him angry because what he would often say is, I like the word reciprocal, right? He wants others to do at the same level anything that we are doing.

COOPER: You write that -- you said that you hope he has changed and learned. Do you know a lot of 78-year-old like billionaires or alleged billionaires who have really have big evolutions at age 78?

MCMASTER Well, he will probably not, but I did see him learn and adapting and really evolve his understanding of situations, right? People would often say, does he listen, does he -- yes, he does.

But oftentimes when he does come to, what I think is a really solid conclusion based on talking to a wide range of people, getting a wide range of views, oftentimes he can't hang on to that decision and then policy becomes unmoored.

COOPER: Well, that's the knock on him. And what has been well- documented is that he listens to the last person who's in the room. So you can convince him of something and he'll back something you say, and then you say he talks to a wide range of a cast of characters who have access to him, certainly, these days in Mar-a-Lago or elsewhere and he comes around to a different understanding.

That's got to be, as somebody who is a National Security adviser, that's got to be I don't know if terrifying is the right word or frustrating at the very least.

MCMASTER: Well, the key for me was I saw myself and this is one of the titles, one of the chapters, as a guardian of his independence of judgment, right? I wasn't there to manipulate him into decisions or to feed him the information that I think might lead him to a particular course of action.

I was there to give him best analysis and multiple options. And that's one of the lessons I had learned from studying Vietnam.

COOPER: I want to play some of what other high-ranking military officials have said about the former president after working with him. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK MILLEY, FORMER UNITED STATES CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We don't take an oath to a king or a queen, or a tyrant, or a dictator, and we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. We don't take an oath to an individual. We take an oath to the Constitution.

MARK ESPER FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I think he's unfit for office. Look, he puts himself before country. His actions are all about him and not about the country.

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: I think he's dangerous enough. He shouldn't get a second term.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Bolton succeeded you as a National Security adviser --

MCMASTER: One of the many, one of them.

COOPER: Yes. But General Kelly, I mean, has painted a really brutal -- I mean, very damaging descriptions of things that he says the president -- then president has said to him about wounded troops, troops who have -- service members who have laid down their life for this country, calling them losers and suckers.

Do you believe General Kelly that Trump said those things?

MCMASTER: Well, I wasn't there, Anderson. I was gone by that time. It sounded out of character to me. I never heard the person say anything like that, that bad.

COOPER: Well, you did hear him criticize John McCain, who was very good to you.

MCMASTER: Of course yes. He was a dear friend of mine.

COOPER: He denigrated people who were prisoners of war.

MCMASTER: Absolutely -- the president, is quite often very offensive, brash, says things that are outlandish. I relate a lot of those in the book. But he's an extremely disruptive person. I saw it as my job not to try to constrain him, but to help him disrupt what needed to be disrupted --

COOPER: Would you work in a Trump White House again?

MCMASTER: No, I think, Anderson, I will work in any administration where I feel like I can make a difference, but I'm kind of used up with Donald Trump.

COOPER: Would you work in a Harris administration?

MCMASTER: Well, I think I don't know if I would be effective there either based on probably by different points of view and what is a sensible policy toward the Middle East or really fill in the blank, but anywhere I could make a difference, it's such a privilege to serve. One of the themes in "At War with Ourselves" is heck, yeah, we are at war with ourselves.

That's not only bad for our psyche, it's bad for governance, it is bad for our country. And I hope that young people, if they read this book, will feel a call to serve because the tone in the book is not one of, you know, wow, that was such a hard -- I mean, it was a privilege to serve in that job.

COOPER: It's a complex portrayal and there's a lot of stuff you liked about what went on in the administration and you're also very honest about the things that you saw there.

MCMASTER: They were disappointing. Yes, absolutely.

COOPER: Yes. General McMaster, I really appreciate your time.

MCMASTER: Thanks, Anderson, great to be with you.

COOPER: The book again, "At War with Ourselves: My Tour of Duty in the Trump White House" is going to be available tomorrow. It's a great read.

Up next, Vice President Harris said she would do an interview by the end of the month, still nothing confirmed as of yet. I'll get the panel's take on that strategy. It is getting a lot of criticism by the former president and a lot of members of the media as well.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Just before the break, we're from Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, who's discussing his new book, an insider's account, of his 13 months as National Security Adviser early on in the Trump White House. He details what he sees as Trump's foreign policy successes, in his words, administering, quote, "long overdue correctives to a number of unwise policies," but at the same time reveals a -- or gives a portrait of a deeply flawed man.

[20:35:12]

McMaster says Trump struggled to find what McMaster termed self-worth by embracing dictators and strongmen and wanted yes men around him, whom McMaster says he pitted against each other instead of building collaborative teams.

Back now with our panel. Alyssa, does the White House that McMaster described correspond to the White House you worked in?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, I have tremendous respect for Lieutenant General McMaster. We barely overlapped in the White House, but there was a level of, perhaps it was different much earlier on, where I wish I had the optimism he does of what a second Trump term would be like. He mentioned, you know, he takes a wide array of advice from national security advisers around him. That often wasn't my experience. And I worry about a second term. It also matters who is in the administration, who's staffing the west wing, who's the Department of Defense.

Listen, there are certainly policies that I agree with Donald Trump on. I think H.R. McMaster would agree how he handled Iran. That's something I can agree with. But the commitments to not supporting Ukraine, to letting Russia invade NATO, there is a reason that myself, Mark Milley, Mark Esper, John Bolton, have all warned that he is a danger and that his approach to national security completely understand -- undermines America's standing in the world.

COOPER: Bryan, what do you make of McMaster saying Trump wants yes men around him, he talks about how susceptible he is to flattery and, you know, I don't know if idealizes strong men or sort of -- kind of, you know, wants strong men to like him because of his self-esteem.

BRYAN LANZA, FMR. DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, TRUMP 2016 CAMPAIGN: Yes, listen, I'm not a shrink, I don't think McMaster's is, even though he's tried to play one in his book. And I always comment, it's funny how these people sell a book and then they try to give a positive comment and a negative comment in this Trump space.

Listen --

COOPER: Well, actually, by the way, throughout his book is both positive and negative. He's probably, of all the people, he's not -- this is not like, you know, Molotov cocktails at the Trump White House, just so you know.

LANZA: Yes, he punches and he covers. You know, he does it really well. You know, but I would say this. You know, Trump very much likes having -- I wouldn't say yes people around him, but people who are affirming his position, right? You know, he wants people who are going to sort of offer some criticism, but say ultimately land where he lands.

COOPER: It's kind of what a yes man is, isn't it?

LANZA: No, listen, my experience with Trump is I've gone in the room and during the campaign, certainly not when he's been in office, I'm not going to imply that. But when I've gone in the room and I said, sir, you know, here's the mistake I see it's taking place. Here are going to be the consequences. This is why I would recommend not going down this route.

And he was very accepting of changing positions. I think we can count many of times in his administration where he's changed positions.

COOPER: Yes.

LANZA: And that goes to the sort of point of McMaster's is, you know, whether we like it or not, he's open minded, almost too open minded. Some, you know, our good friend Anthony Scaramucci would call it transactional. But, yes, it is easy to move the president's position from time to time.

It's -- you can't move his position related to China because he very much feels that the trade, the trading --

GRIFFIN: TikTok.

LANZA: -- parameters are uneven there.

COOPER: Yes, well, TikTok. Anyway --

LANZA: Well, you know, that's his owner.

COOPER: Ashley, I want to play you something that the Vice President Harris said a couple weeks ago and get your thoughts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's been a lot of questions about when you're going to sit down for your first interview since being the nominee. Do you have any update on that?

KAMALA HARRIS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've talked to my team. I want us to get an interview scheduled before the end of the month.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: It's now the last week of August, not scheduled yet as far as we know. Do you think it's going to happen and do you think she needs to?

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR VP HARRIS: Yes, I mean, I definitely think it's going to happen, but I really honestly believe that this is much ado about nothing. I don't think the average American really cares about whether or not she sits down with a, you know, with an anchor to do a big interview.

You know, this is just sort of beltway chatter and it's more than anything else. It's a deflection. I mean, here's the -- here's what really matters 75 days out from an election. It's the money, the infrastructure in the message. And that's where Donald Trump is losing on all three. So this is like a desperate attempt for him to turn a page.

She's raised three times the amount of money that he has. You know, he -- the Republican Party, state parties are broke, they can't get volunteers. She's, in a matter of weeks, got 200,000 volunteers on the books. In addition to that, she's winning on each one of the message fronts. Crime is down. Inflation is down. Border crossing is down. So really that's what he's trying to do is deflect from that, you know, what really matters at this point in the election and he's losing on all of those fronts.

COOPER: Alyssa, let me ask you this. This is kind of a big picture question. Has Trump changed the game for presidential races forever? I mean, because it seems to me the Harris campaign probably wisely from a political sense is taking a lot of like the tricks from the Trump campaign and using it to their advantage.

I mean, you know, not immediately doing a sit down interview. You know, Trump does plenty of sit down interviews, but by and large, you know, he barrels his way through them and lies repeatedly through them and they're, you know, they're kind of -- they end up being not really much of anything other than a performative piece for him.

[20:40:06]

A lot of the kind of things that Trump has done, it seems like the Harris campaign is -- they're not repeating exactly, but they've learned from, and I'm -- and I wonder if it's, you know, she's getting some criticism for not doing a sit down, but I understand the strategy behind it.

GRIFFIN: Yes, listen, he's completely rewritten the rules of running a campaign. I think it's a direct result of Trump that you had someone like Bob Menendez, who was under criminal indictment and refused to resign for a period of time because we just -- we don't operate the way that we used to.

But more specifically to Harris, I think that there is so much built up around the idea of doing a mainstream, you know, network sit down interview, which Trump does very rarely calling into Fox News is very different than that hosting, you know, a press conference at one of his country clubs where he decides what reporters he's going to call on is very different than standing at the White House podium and taking any open question from anyone.

What I do think she's making a mistake of is allowing the build up to be there so there'll be such scrutiny over an interview. She's got to do it ahead of the debate. She should be gaggling on the campaign trail, which it sounds like she is a bit but she should be talking to her press bull.

COOPER: Yes.

GRIFFIN: She should be talking to national press daily.

COOPER: Ashley Etienne, Bryan Lanza, Alyssa Farah Griffin, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Just ahead, Florida judge appointed by Trump tossed the classified documents case out last month. But today, the Justice Department urged the Federal Appeals Court to bring it back. Details on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:50]

COOPER: New developments tonight in Trump's classified documents case that was dismissed last month. In the first formal filing since the case was tossed, Special Counsel Jack Smith urged the Federal Appeals Court to bring it back and argued that Judge Cannon's decision to throw it out based on the argument that the prosecutors lacked constitutional authority was, quote, "novel and lacked merit." With me now is CNN Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider. So, Jessica, please walk us through what the Special Counsel Jack Smith is now arguing in this new court filing.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, pretty simply, Anderson. He's saying Judge Cannon got the decision wrong last month when she dismissed this classified documents case against Donald Trump and his co-defendants. And what Jack Smith is now urging the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals to do is he wants them to overturn her decision, which would then allow the criminal case to move forward.

And specifically, what he's pointing to is really years of court decisions, including the 1974 case from the Supreme Court, U.S. v. Nixon, where the Supreme Court did say that attorneys general do have the power to appoint a special counsel. That is exactly the opposite of what Judge Cannon ruled in mid-July.

At the time, she said Smith's appointment was unconstitutional, that his office was unlawfully funded. But DOJ is now arguing, they're saying, look, there's nothing wrong based on past precedent, but they're also warning that if this decision is allowed to stand, it would effectively bar the attorney general from really appointing any deputy positions or other positions at DOJ. Or even other heads of other agencies being able to appoint other officials.

So, you know, Smith's argument has a lot of precedent behind it. And now we'll see how the 11th Circuit handles this. Anderson.

COOPER: So what happens next? Yes. So the special counsel in the brief is asking for in person arguments in the case. Before then we'll likely hear from Trump's team arguing that Cannon did the right thing. What's unclear is how quickly the 11th Circuit might actually act or schedule anything.

Of course, we're just about what, eight plus weeks away from the election. And then there's that, you know, if Trump wins, he could ultimately get rid of this case. I will note, you know, the 11th Circuit, it does have a conservative tilt. However, they previously overruled Judge Cannon just about two years ago when she decided to name a special master to review documents in this case.

So this will be a case to watch, Anderson. You know, we'll see when the 11th Circuit hears it, and then it could ultimately be appealed to the Supreme Court.

COOPER: Yes. Jessica Schneider, thanks very much.

More perspective now from CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig. Does special counsel make a good case here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think Jack Smith's going to win this, Anderson. I don't like to do predictions, but I just read the brief and I'm convinced he's going to win. And here's why. The argument that Donald Trump made is Congress has to pass a specific law saying, we hereby create the position of special counsel in order for there to be a special counsel. But what Jack Smith argues, I think quite persuasively in his brief is there are four different laws where Congress says, well, the attorney general has very broad powers to delegate his authority to enlist other prosecutors and FBI agents to do the work that he needs done. And I think that's a powerful argument.

And, by the way, this same argument has been made to various other district court judges and appeals, including in the Mueller case and the Hunter Biden case, and it has not succeeded. Judge Cannon's the only one who's found this way.

COOPER: If this is reversed, could Smith try to get Cannon removed?

HONIG: So he could have asked in the brief that he filed today to have Judge Cannon removed, but he did not. It's very rare for DOJ to do that. We really -- we -- I still say we, DOJ, but we only do that in the rarest of circumstances. That said, sometimes courts of appeals will remove a district court judge on their own.

It's extraordinarily rare, but if they reverse Judge Cannon here, that'll be twice. Jessica mentioned the other one. That is a whole new playground there. That is something that very rarely happens. So if they reverse her again, it's possible, in my mind, they remove her as well.

COOPER: That, what, the appeals court would remove her?

HONIG: Yes, yes.

COOPER: That Jack Smith wouldn't have to sort of petition to have her removed?

HONIG: Exactly. A lot of times when this does happen, the appeals court will do it on its own without even any of the parties asking.

COOPER: That would be, I imagine, not great for her career.

HONIG: Oh my gosh. It would be humiliating for her. When it happens, it is a mark that stays with that judge for a long time.

[20:50:02]

The federal appeals courts are extremely reluctant to remove a district judge. They only do it where they feel like that judge cannot fairly continue on the case.

COOPER: And if the special counsel is allowed to proceed, I mean, to Jessica's point, this is not going to happen before the election.

HONIG: Yes, the timeline is blown up here. I mean, I don't think we're going to even get a ruling from the 11th Circuit before November. That said, I do -- as I said in the beginning, I do think Jack Smith's going to win here and then it's all going to depend on who wins the election.

Because if Trump wins, the federal cases, including this one, they're out the door. If Kamala Harris wins, I assume she would let it go forward. And that I think underscores the stakes here in this election for Donald Trump. I mean, if he wins these two cases and probably all four of them go away. If he loses, he is going to trial in all likelihood on one or two or both of the federal cases.

COOPER: In just -- in the Trump's attorneys in Georgia, in the Fani Willis case, had petition again to get her removed. What's going on?

HONIG: Yes, that brief just came in about an hour ago. I just read through it. I actually think they have a very good chance of Donald Trump's team of winning that case. And now we're in Georgia and the state case and --

COOPER: Winning the case in terms of getting her removed or just winning the case --

HONIG: Winning the case outright and getting it thrown out. And here's why. A lot of the focus has been on this conflict of interest. Fani Willis has this relationship with another attorney on the case and they intermingled their finances. I'm sure I've said to you, I never thought that was the issue. I think the issue is what Trump's team hit on today, which is Fani Willis has made wildly inappropriate public out of court statements.

And what Trump's team focuses on in this brief is Fani Willis at one point went in front of a church with national TV cameras and said, the reason these defendants made this motion is racism. You are polluting the jury pool when you do that. And Trump's team argues, and I think they have a good chance of winning, that that's misconduct and that requires dismissal of the indictment because it undermines the rights of the accused.

They have the right to be presumed innocent. And if you're tainting the jury pool, it's a big problem.

COOPER: All right. Elie Honig, thanks so much.

HONIG: Thanks, Anderson.

COOPER: Coming up, tomorrow morning's scheduled SpaceX launch not only mark a major step for private spaceflight, but signal how NASA hopes to bring home two astronauts stranded right now aboard the International Space Station. We have details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:46]

COOPER: Sometime early tomorrow morning, Elon Musk's SpaceX is scheduled to launch a new four person mission. It'll be special for two reasons. One, the crew of the privately funded Polaris Dawn mission will consist of astronauts who hope to conduct their first ever commercial spacewalk. They're also going to attempt to reach the highest ever orbit for a crewed mission.

The second reason is that tomorrow's launch now comes with the knowledge that over the weekend, NASA selected SpaceX to help bring home two astronauts who can't return from the International Space Station due to safety issues with their Boeing Starliner spacecraft.

CNN Space and Defense Correspondent Kristin Fisher joins us now. So, NASA's announced the astronauts who've been stuck up at the International Space Station are not going to get back until February 2025. How are they going to get back safely?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, it's not on the spacecraft that got them in this space. Boeing Starliner, the first crewed test flight for this mission, it ran into so many issues, helium leaks, problems with the thrusters. And so, Anderson, over the weekend, after weeks of testing, NASA officials said, hey, we've learned our lesson from the Challenger accident, from the Columbia accident, we're going to put the astronaut safety first.

And so, rather than take any risks, they decided to keep those astronauts up at the space station until February 2025 and hitch a ride back on a SpaceX Crew Dragon. So that means what was supposed to be an eight-day mission is going to turn into about eight months up there for them.

COOPER: Is it true that some of the astronauts' personal luggage, including their toiletries, didn't make it into space? How could that have happened?

FISHER: I know. Yes, so it turned out to be not the right thing to take off the spacecraft. They had too much weight, too much mass on the spacecraft when it launched and they needed to get a critical piece up to the International Space Station. The urine recycling pump wasn't working and so literally bags of astronaut urine were piling up, up at the International Space Station.

And so in order to get this replacement pump up there, they put that inside the Starliner spacecraft and took out two of the astronaut suitcases inside all of their toiletries. I'd kind of want them if I were up there for --

COOPER: Wow. Well, I mean --

FISHER: -- eight days much less eight months.

COOPER: I, you know, look I get it not wanting the bags of urine where I am, so I'm going to give maybe give them a break on that.

FISHER: Yes.

COOPER: Although I do think given that I travel a lot, I do think you should always just carry your toiletries in your carry-on bag in case they lose your luggage. Little pro-travel tip. So SpaceX has separate unrelated mission schedule to launch. What do we know about that flight?

FISHER: Well, it was actually just moments ago delayed about 24 hours due to some issue with fueling on the ground that just took place. But when it does launch, Anderson, this is going to be one of the most daring human spaceflight missions in modern history. The world's first commercial spacewalk.

And what's really cool here is, SpaceX designed new spacesuits just for this mission. NASA's been trying to develop new spacesuits like this for about 40 years. SpaceX did it in about two and a half years. And I'll let the mission's commander, Jared Isaacman, explain what they eventually hope that these spacesuits will be used for.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JARED ISAACMAN, MISSION COMMANDER, POLARIS DAWN: I think we are all really confident, having observed all this for the last couple of years, that, you know, some iteration of it, you know, fifth or sixth, is going to be worn by somebody walking on Mars someday. And that just makes it even more of a privilege to be part of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: And so in addition to this spacewalk, Anderson, one of the other things that this mission is going to be doing is these astronauts are going to be flying into the radiation belt. This is the first time that any humans have done this since the Apollo astronauts back in the 1970s.

So it's a really risky mission. But all these astronauts say, you know, they've been training for two years. They think they're ready.

COOPER: Yes. Amazing.

Kristin Fisher, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

The news continues. The Source starts now. See you tomorrow.