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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Harris Courts Black Vote in Radio Town Hall With Charlamagne The God; Trump Wanders Off Topic, Touts "The Weave" During Interview; Bob Woodward's New Book "War" Gives New Insight Into The Behind-The Scenes Conversations Of Biden, Trump, Putin And More; Georgia Judge Rules County Election Officials Cannot Delay Or Decline Certification Of Election Results; Officials Fight Over Conspiracy Theories About WI Ballot Drop Boxes. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 15, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ... sixteen hours in the air all together for that panda pair, Erin. They're going to spend about 30 days in quarantine according to zoo officials, then they're going to debut to the public in January. January 24th is now the official date they just announced that, and I feel like every time you and I have talked about US-China, it does tend to be about something about conflict, about tensions. This shows that it's all of that and the diplomacy 50-plus years strong can push through.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: It really does and it does matter while there is that level of kind of cuteness to it, it matters so much. Well, David Culver, thank you so much, I appreciate it, and thanks to all of you as always for being with us. Anderson starts now.
[20:00:42]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360. With three weeks until election day, Vice President Harris tries to shore up support with Black voters in Detroit on the air with Charlamagne tha God.
Also, the former president's performance last night and today, the questions they raised for some about his mental state and the voters who don't seem to have a problem with anything he says or does.
Plus, Bob Woodward joins me with details on why America's former top general now calls Trump a fascist to the core, and like former Joint Chiefs Chairman General Mark Milley or as Trump may call him back to active duty so he can be court-martialed.
Good evening. Thanks for joining us, 21 days out from election, a lot happening. The former president is in Atlanta tonight expected to speak shortly. We'll have more on him momentarily.
People began early voting today in Georgia, the turnout is huge, double what it was in 2020. I'll get the latest numbers from Georgia's election officials, Gabe Sterling.
First though, Vice President Harris in Detroit tonight fresh from a live radio town hall with Charlamagne tha God. She went into it facing a polling shortfall among Black men compared to President Biden's level of support in 2020.
Former President Obama bluntly addressed those voters recently saying it's, "not acceptable" -- his words -- to sit out this election. Vice president was less direct instead, calling attention to a suite of policy proposals.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS (D) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The work that I continue to do is about increasing access to capital for our small businesses. So, my plan includes making sure that for first-time homebuyers, they have a $25,000.00 down payment assistance to just get their foot in the door because we know folks will work hard.
So, part of my agenda is about what we will do to deal with and highlight what we've got to do to focus on Black men's health.
And then a similar point is this: 40 percent of caregivers are men. Let's have Medicare. And this is -- I've mapped it out and we can make it work.
Medicare cover the cost of home health care for seniors.
The needs of the Black community are not just about criminal justice. My agenda is about tapping into the ambitions and the aspirations, knowing that folks want to have an opportunity, if they want, they should have a meaningful opportunity to build wealth, including intergenerational wealth.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: She also spoke about the stakes of the election in her view and when Charlamagne asked why people can't just say the word fascism to describe those stakes, the vice president replied, yes, we can say that.
Joining us from Atlanta, Astead Herndon, CNN political analyst and national political reporter for "The New York Times;" also former Trump White House communications director Alyssa Farah Griffin who's been speaking out against her old boss out on the trail, but has not endorsed a candidate for president; T.W. Shannon, a former Oklahoma Republican House Speaker, who is now an adviser with Black Men for Trump, And Mo Elleithee, former communications director for the Democratic National Committee.
So, Alyssa, you certainly been saying for a long time, vice president needs to meet voters where they are. What do you make of her latest outrage?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's smart where she's going, the targets are right going on, "Call Her Daddy," going on Joe Rogan, going on Charlamagne tha God, these have huge reach and a lot of them are probably low propensity voters, people who may not necessarily turn out or follow politics day-to-day. It seems late though, I've got to say, this is obviously a result of the Harris campaign realizing that the polls are tightening up. But these are the moves she should've been doing a month ago. To maybe get people off the couch who were thinking of sitting it out or who are undecided.
According to CNN's own polling, we know that the actual number of undecided voters is remarkably small at this point. So she really needs to be tarred were getting people who are just on the fence about even turning out at this point.
COOPER: Mo, I mean, I want to play something else from the radio town hall. This came at the end of an exchange where Vice President Harris was asked by a reverend about how she would partner with Black churches to address the needs of the Black community, it is a brief a moment, but it has got a lot of attention.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HARRIS: Thank you, Reverend.
REV. SOLOMON KINLOCH, JR. God is good.
HARRIS: Every day, all the time.
CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: There you go, make sure you get that right.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Van Jones pointed out that he said earlier, he thought it was important for Harris to do sort of call and response to the Reverend, especially given that Trump has questioned her identity during this campaign, do you agree?
MO ELLEITHEE, FORMER DNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes, look, I think anything she can do to relate to the Black community even more than she already does is a good thing and she needs to be out there doing even more of it.
[20:05:01]
Now, I will say it actually has been heartening to see her out there for the past few weeks talking about economic issues relevant to the Black community and drawing a contrast with Donald Trump. I've heard for way too long that one of the biggest criticisms of the Democratic Party is that we wait until the Sunday before election day, drop into the Black churches and that's the extent of our outreach.
Here she is, more than a month before the election out there talking specifically to the community, not taking it for granted. She needs to keep doing that. She needs to keep drawing a contrast with Donald Trump, not just as she said, on criminal justice issues, Lord knows there's plenty to focus on there, but on the economic issues where she's starting to see some slippage, she can make a very strong case about the economy as it relates to Black families under her leadership versus that of Donald Trump's. COOPER: Speaker Shannon, I want to play another moment from this town hall.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HARRIS: And by voting in this election, you have two choices or you don't vote, but you have two choices if you do, and it's two very different visions for our nation, one mind that is about taking us forward and progress and investing in the American people, investing in their ambitions, dealing with their challenges. And the other, Donald Trump is about taking us backward.
CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: The other is about fascism. Why can't we just say it?
HARRIS: Yes, we can say that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: So, obviously, you're a Trump supporter and obviously, she is very much not a Trump supporter. It's interesting though, Charlamagne bringing up that word, you know, Bob Woodward has now reported that former Joint Chiefs Chairman General Mark Milley, whom Trump appointed to that post, said the same thing to Bob Woodward. Do you think it could resonate with undecided voters in these final weeks?
T.W. SHANNON, ADVISOR, BLACK MEN FOR TRUMP: Yes, I don't at all, the fact that we've got a Democratic nominee for president three weeks out from the election, still trying to shore up the Black vote, that tells you how poorly Kamala's doing. In fact, one in four Black men say they're voting for Donald Trump and 61 percent of African-Americans say this country is going the wrong direction.
I got to tell you, Anderson, I'm glad that you're having me on, but the reality is I'm excited that of the fact that Kamala Harris is fighting for the Black vote for the first time because she's been in office for four years and I'm wondering where has she been the last four years?
The fact that she's rolling out a plan in the 11th hour the campaign to finally appeal to Black voters, it really sounds like a lot of pandering in my opinion. Where has she been the last four years? The reality is she hadn't cared about Black men unless you are a gay man or you're a dead Black man shot by police officer. She really hadn't been cared about Black men up until this point.
COOPER: Astead, former President Obama suggested that Harris' support among Black men is relatively low because they aren't enthused about the idea of a woman president. Do you think that's the case?
ASTEAD HERNDON, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, I mean, bear with me, Anderson, I think there's a lot of nuance to this conversation that risk getting loss. I would say the first thing is that this has been a trend that's been developing for a long time, since the high water mark of 2012. You saw in 2016, certain areas, I'm thinking in Milwaukee, Philadelphia, where Black turnout specifically among Black men wasn't where Democrats needed to be.
It was one of the bleak spots of the 2022 midterm. So, this predates Kamala Harris. The other thing I would say is Black men are overwhelmingly likely to vote for Democrats, even in "The New York Times" polling that sent some of this and to nuclear, you still saw 78 percent of Black men supporting Harris.
And so, there will not be a singular reason. Sometimes I think we risk sounding like Black men might be the reason Donald Trump wins. Now, don't think that's a good place for us to be.
But the third thing is --
SHANNON: It was Obama who said that.
COOPER: We like people to finish their conversations here. So, Astead, go ahead -- when you're finished.
HERNDON: Yes, I think it's also important to see this in a larger context of the educational sorting that's happening among the parties. Democrats have become a more college of slew and party, a wider party or a more, I think elite party under kind of a post Obama era and that's drawing them to issues like college affordability the kind of cultural fights that dominate Twitter and academia, even things like representation, which are about elite Black folks in elite rooms aren't really the issues that are most core to the type of Black men they're losing their focus about the fact that those elite rooms are increasingly inaccessible.
And so, I think those are the issues that are really pulling Democrats away from where these folks talk. But to the answer the question about Obama itself, that is a matter of tone. When I talked to Governor Wes Moore about this issue on our podcast, a couple of months ago, he said that Democrats need to work from the place of acknowledging the frustration of Black men.
And then also, acknowledging that Democrats have played a part of it that does not sound like what Barack Obama is doing last week. And I frankly think that type of lecturing tone, is not something he would do in other communities and it is part of the reason some of this backlash is happening.
So yes, is there misogyny present? Sure. Yes, is there kind of -- it has her White, I think, spouse come up as I talked to some Black men, sure, but I don't think that's true across, I think that's true across men broadly, and we somewhat risk acting like this as a Black man specific problem when it's not.
COOPER: Mo, I'm wondering what you think?
SHANNON: I agree with that, it's not a Black man specific problem.
[20:10:09]
COOPER: Mo, what do you think of Speaker Shannon's characterization that Kamala Harris hasn't really done anything as vice president to reach out to Black men.
ELLEITHEE: Look, there can be a very easy contrast between the record of this administration versus the record of the last one. Under Donald Trump, unemployment in the Black community was higher than it's been under this administration. Wages were lower than they were under this administration. Let's account for inflation, they were still lower under Donald Trump than they were under this administration. The number of Black-owned businesses was smaller under Donald Trump than it was under this administration.
On metric after metric, there's a record to point to, but, and this is where I always caution my fellow Democrats, throwing out the data isn't enough if people don't always feel it. There's a record to point to but she needs to be even more aggressive in these final weeks, laying out how her plan, which is a very good plan, that she rolled out recently, how that impacts people there every day lives. That's not something Donald Trump is doing, she is.
COOPER: I've got to get a break in -- everyone stick around. Coming up next, the foreign president's meandering performance during an interview today in his behavior on stage last night.
Also, author Bob Woodward on how Trump compares with any president he's known, or if he even compares it all. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:16:02]
COOPER: The former president's event tonight in Atlanta follows two- campaign appearances which stand out even for him during an interview today with the editor-in-chief of Bloomberg News, he had difficulty staying on the topic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MICKLETHWAIT, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF BLOOMBERG NEWS: Should Google be broken up?
DONALD TRUMP (R) FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I just haven't gotten over something that Justice Department did yesterday, where Virginia cleaned up its voter rolls and get rid of thousands and thousands of bad votes and the Justice Department sued them, that they should be allowed to put those bad votes and illegal votes back in and let the people vote, so, I haven't, I haven't gotten, I haven't gotten over that. A lot of people have seen that they can't even believe it.
MICKLETHWAIT: The question is about Google, President Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: But as he often does lately, he tried to portray his digressions is some kind of display verbal, virtuosity, or as he calls it, the weave. Listen to the questions he's asked and the journey he takes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICKLETHWAIT: Critics say you're tariffs will end up being like a national sales tax.
TRUMP: Nope, no --
MICKLETHWAIT: If you have America at the moment has three trillion dollars' worth of imports, you're going to add tariffs to every single one of them that is going to push up the cost for all those people who want to buy foreign goods.
TRUMP: No, what's going to happen --
MICKLETHWAIT: This is just simple mathematics President Trump.
TRUMP: It's not, yes it is, but not the way you figured, I was always very good at mathematics. Let me tell you, you're saying three trillion, those companies -- and they don't have to pay, when I was in office, I saw a man from a big I saw a man from a big steel company and he was devastated. I knew him for a long time and it's been a tough business.
Certain things you have to have steel, you have to have, if you go to war, you know, there's a possibility you go to war. I kept us out of war. I had no wars in the whole world and I call it the wave. You can call that, it's got a -- you have the wave as long as you end up in the right location at the end. But while we're talking about it, we have never been so close to World War III as we have -- are right now. With what's going on in Ukraine and Russia and the Middle East.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So that was today. Last night at a town hall in Pennsylvania, he took a few questions and after two people needed medical attention, he started calling for music and stood on stage, sort of bobbing and swaying until he left the stage, 45 minutes later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Let's just listen to music, let's make into a music -- who the hell wants to hear questions right?
Let me hear that music, please.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
And those two people that went down are patriots and we love them and because of them we ended up with some good music, right?
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Should we keep going? All right turn that music up.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Back to our panel, and actually while we talked -- we'll just play about from like 30 minutes, just fast forward like 30 minutes into that, we'll just play out in real time.
So Alyssa, I mean, what was that?
GRIFFIN: I mean, I'm more confused than Kristi Noem looks on that stage. This is truly one of the most bizarre things I've seen in American politics. And I have to say --
COOPER: I mean if Joe Biden had done that, either of those things --
GRIFFIN: I was an early person to call for Joe Biden to step aside --
SHANNON: Come on, Alyssa.
GRIFFIN: If Joe Biden had done this and on stage just bobbed and weaved and dance to music for 40 minutes with no purpose saying the voters don't want to hear answers to questions, three weeks out from the election, yes, we would say Joe Biden is unfit and not up for the task of being president for another four years.
COOPER: Speaker Shannon.
SHANNON: Come on, come on, Alyssa, listen, this is a non-story, President Trump was doing the right thing. This was absolutely appropriate. You had two people --
GRIFFIN: In what regard?
[20:20:06]
SHANNON: Because it was so crowded and there was so much heat -- because there were people that were passed out and he was actually entertaining the crowd --
GRIFFIN: So, he couldn't then go back to taking questions?
SHANNON: He didn't go back and take a break, excuse me, don't interrupt, let me let me finish, Alyssa, I didn't interrupt you.
What he did do was stand there and allowed the people to be serviced, to allow them to get out safely so that they could get -- and to remind you, this is a man who was recently just shot and a person was killed at one of his rallies.
Sitting there, allowing the music to play was absolutely appropriate thing to do and anybody trying to make a story out of this, is trying to make a mount not a mole hill, this is a non-story, I'm at a Trump rally right now, there's a reason people are lined up around the building waiting to see this man speak, probably for an hour and an hour-and-a-half non-stop.
If you think Joe Biden could do that, if you think Kamala Harris could get through it without laughing her head off, then you tell me when that came down before because it haven't happen yet. GRIFFIN: So, sorry, did you truly think voters did not show up to a town hall which is by definition asking questions to hear answers to questions they showed up to hear him, DJ and sway on stage?
SHANNON: Alyssa, there were people that actually got injured. They were being carried out on stretchers, ma'am.
GRIFFIN: We understand this went on for 40 minutes.
SHANNON: You can't expect him to ask questions over that. He was actually doing the gentlemanly thing --
COOPER: Are you saying that there are like emergency workers couldn't bring --
SHANNON: -- emergency taking out safely. It was the right thing to do.
COOPER: You're saying emergency workers couldn't bring two people out in 40 minutes, 45 minutes that he stood on stage playing music, and by the way, is really playing music really loudly great for emergency workers trying to access people. I mean, if you're really concerned, I would imagine you'd actually want the music to stop. People, maybe to give room. Maybe he would be giving instructions from stage.
Astead, do you think any -- I mean, none of this seems to matter to Trump supporters. They seem to be fine with it, obviously, could, I mean, at this stage does any of this matter?
HERNDON: Look, I was just in the line of the --
COOPER: Actually, I was talking to Astead. Just go ahead, Astead.
HERNDON: Yes, I was saying, I was just in line at the Trump event in Georgia and the thing is, I think to Alyssa's point, in a normal political event with a normal political candidate, I would expect people to be there answering -- looking for answers to their questions.
At the Trump event, they are there for a show. It's kind of half concert anyway, so I don't think this necessarily moment matters. But I do think it's important to note out that Donald Trump is an increasingly ad hoc candidate.
He does not stay on topic. He frequently is a meandering kind of rambling speeches and even the issues that his advisers and team want him to stay on, he is not doing it. That's the reason Harris is focusing more on just the reasons she's reached challenged him to debate.
Even some of the folks I've talked to in line today where acknowledging that he wasn't at his best in that debate and it looked kind of bad for him to not be able to want to do a second one. So if we're talking about that broader issue, I think that matters in the election and is part of the reason, a lot of Republicans think they would be in a better position if a different candidate was making the same argument mean on the issues. But I don't think this individual moment is going to be the tipping point on that front because frankly, the fans are there for a show no matter what he brings.
COOPER: It is interesting, Mo, I mean, if again, if Joe Biden or Vice President Harris had done either of those things, had that word salad answer, it would be much disgust obviously, on the right, I mean, people see through the lens that they want to see thing and we've certainly covered when she's given word salad answers and -- but this just seems like such again, we're watching this in real time. It just goes on for 45 minutes.
ELLEITHEE: Yes, look, the thing at the rally was --
COOPER: I'm sorry sir, I've asked you the same number of questions I've asked each of our guests, so I haven't asked Mo, the second question. I've asked you two questions and I solicit your questions, I'm asking Mo, if there's more time, I'll get to you next, okay -- Mo.
ELLEITHEE: Yes, I mean, this rally was weird. It was goofy. I have been to many presidential candidate events where people have fainted because of heat and no candidate stands there for 45 minutes swaying to "Ave Maria" and other songs.
But what actually concerned me more was not that event. It was today's event at the Economic Club in Chicago, that what we witnessed there is why he doesn't want to debate again, it is, and if he were to deliver an answer like that in a debate, I think people would be drawn even more for clear comparisons to what they said about Joe Biden after the first debate.
The one moment where he really had any clarity during that entire event was when he doubled and tripled down on one policy issue, which was his trade wars, his tariffs, which the last time he did cost 250,000 American workers their jobs.
So the only time he had any clarity was pushing an economic policy that hurt American voters. The rest of the time he was kind of meandering all over the place. If people see more of that, then I think he's going to struggle with those undecided voters and that's why he doesn't want them to see more of that but on the debate stage.
[20:25:00]
COOPER: Speaker Shannon, it does seem like in terms of that interview question, we do live in an age now where I mean, certainly, the former president has kind of reset the bar on what's acceptable. And I think Kamala Harris has sort of followed in those footsteps of sometimes not answering the question that's been asked and just I mean, he was asked about Google and then he went off and just gave an answer that -- a question he wished he had been asked, it's certainly a skill and there's no real repercussions for it.
SHANNON: Well, I mean, here's the reality, Anderson, Donald Trump is an over-communicator, if there's an issue that you want to know where he stands on, just asked him. If he hasn't told you already, he will tell you there's not a question that I can think of that Donald Trump hasn't answered.
COOPER: But he was just asked about the Google thing and he doesn't talk about that, so --
SHANNON: I think he went on to answer that question later on. Now, he does mentioned as he before, he does take a while to get to an answer, he'll go to that topic, go to other topics because he's absolutely in control. But what he has been clear on is that Kamala Harris allowed 21 million illegals to enter our country and he's been very clear that that has caused a devastating effect on Americas economy in America's safety and that needs to be addressed. That's what he's clear on.
COOPER: Okay. Is he as he fully in control?
GRIFFIN: Well, I'm still waiting for the concepts of a plan to materialize into an actual plan. Listen, respectfully, Donald Trump is not even as sharp as he was in 2020, and I don't think anyone would have argued he was one of our most eloquent presidents back then. I know for a fact that the team around him did not want this to be with the event was last night.
Yes, it was supposed to be a pep rally for his supporters, but there was supposed to be substance, they were supposed to lean into the economic message and to talk about border security and contrasting to Kamala Harris. This was an effective waste of time, but beyond that, it actually raised some legitimate questions. Is this a man who's up to be commander-in-chief of the US military for the next four years and based on that and the answers today, I think it's an open question.
COOPER: Well thanks, everybody appreciate it. Still ahead, legendary journalist Bob Woodward's new book is full of behind the scenes details about Trump's post-presidency conversations with Vladimir Putin and furious Trump's former top general has about his possible return. Bob Woodward joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:31:25]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: With just three weeks until the election, legendary journalist Bob Woodward's new book, "War," is now out. It offers a number of insights into the American presidency, both about President Biden and former President Trump. Bob Woodward joins me tonight.
Bob, we are 21 days away from Election Day, the race obviously neck and neck. You have so many fascinating things in this book. You write about a 2023 conversation you had with retired General Mark Milley when former President Trump appointed to the Joint Chiefs Chairmanship.
You said General Milley told you about Trump, quote, "He's the most dangerous person ever. I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realize he's a total fascist. He is the most dangerous person to this country."
I mean, from any other person, that might just be, you know, something that, you know, comes and goes. But from General Milley, I mean, that's a remarkable statement. What went through your mind when he said that?
BOB WOODWARD, AUTHOR, "WAR": I was astonished because Milley, as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, a very respected person, somebody who really had a record as a military leader, to say that about Trump, not that he's a problem or we can't trust him, but to take it to the point of saying he is a danger to the country. He is the most dangerous person I know. And almost like he's an assignment editor to me as a journalist and a reporter of, you know, we need to do something about this.
COOPER: You also write about conversations that you say Trump had with Vladimir Putin after leaving office. You report as many as seven instances of those. The former president was asked about that today during an event in Chicago. I just want to play what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you say yes or no, whether you have talked to Vladimir Putin since you stopped being president?
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well, I don't comment on that, but I will tell you that if I did, it's a smart thing. If I'm friendly with people, if I have a relationship with people, that's a good thing, not a bad thing in terms of a country.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Obviously not a denial there, certainly. What do you make of that response?
WOODWARD: Well, I make it of a kind of affirmation to say it's a smart thing. How is this a smart thing? Who is Vladimir Putin? Look, Putin is the 20th century's Adolf Hitler. What Putin is doing in Ukraine is not just territorial assault. It is him saying, and if you read what he said and written about this, oh, Russia's entitled to Ukraine.
So we are just going to take it. And that's precisely what he's working on. It's the biggest war that's going on in the world right now. And what's the battlefield status now? That the Ukrainians who have been supported by the United States and other democratic, loving allies, they actually -- last I heard about this, Ukraine occupied 96 -- 93 villages in Russia. So this is not going very well at this moment for Russia.
COOPER: You know, I think back to the only debate between Harris and Trump. When you saw how easily Harris manipulated Trump to get upset and lose -- you know, completely lose it for the rest of the debate by just -- by simply saying that people were bored by his rallies and walked out, I'm wondering, have you ever seen a world leader who is so easily open to manipulation, to flattery, to, you know, praise, to -- I mean, I'm sure in interviews you have probably used this as a tactic to -- you give -- with Trump, I remember in doing interviews, you say, you know, a sort of vaguely positive thing.
[20:35:35]
And then you could ask him other things and he's -- it sort of washes over him and it's OK for a little while.
WOODWARD: OK. But here's one of the things I was able to report in the book. CIA Director Bill Burns, quote, says, "Putin manipulates. He's professionally trained to do that. Putin's got a plan, just as he did when Trump was in office, at playing Trump."
Now, that's not some political opponent saying that about Trump. That's the CIA director who is steeped in the analysis, in this idea. And I know they have very good intelligence on this. What's Putin trying to do? He's trying to play Donald Trump.
So, I think we are in such a dangerous position that Trump might become president again.
COOPER: Bob Woodward, the new book is called, "War." Thanks for your time.
Well, coming up next, breaking news in battleground Georgia and the record that was set today as early voting gets underway. We'll talk with Gabriel Sterling, a key Georgia election official ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:41:15]
COOPER: There's breaking news tonight in the battleground state of Georgia. Election officials report a record turnout on this, the first day of early voting, even with part of the state still recovering from Hurricane Helene.
President Biden won Georgia, as you know, by a little less than 12,000 votes in 2020, which prompted then-President Trump to call and pressure Georgia's top election official to find him enough votes to overturn the results. Well, just yesterday, a Georgia judge ruled county election officials cannot delay or decline to certify the election results if they suspect error or fraud.
Just before airtime, I spoke with Gabe Sterling, the chief operating officer for Georgia's Secretary of State.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Mr. Sterling, first of all, I want to ask you about how early voting, it's already begun in Georgia. How is it going?
GABRIEL STERLING, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE: It's gangbusters, Anderson. We've broken over 300,000 on the first day of early voting. The previous record was from 2020. That was only 136,000. So we're --
COOPER: Wow.
STERLING: The county is doing a great job and Georgia's voters are doing a great job.
COOPER: So certainly there's a lot of, I don't know if it's enthusiasm or certainly interest or passion that people are coming out to do early voting. There's obviously a lot of attention on Georgia this year, given the closeness of the race.
I'm wondering what your reaction is to this court ruling in Fulton County that says county officials in the state cannot delay or decline to certify election results. What does that actually mean in practice?
STERLING: Well, the reality is, and always has been, I'm glad we now have a court of competent jurisdiction coming down and saying this, is a ministerial duty. The county officials have to certify the election because it's not their job. And he said in this order to be the judge and investigator on this. That is a job of courts.
And, in fact, in Georgia, under the law, if you want to challenge the outcome of an election, you have to do certification first. So this is just part of the process that they play.
COOPER: There's been obviously a lot of attention on the state election board, on the -- some of the members on that board. There's separate litigation over some of the moves, which is, you know, the board is controlled by Trump allies.
They've sought to require local officials to conduct a so-called reasonable inquiry into election results before certifying. They also want 2020 election deniers to serve as election monitors in Fulton County. And they voted to require counties to hand count the number of ballots cast at a polling place to make sure it matches the number of ballots tallied by voting machines. Do these make sense to you?
STERLING: Well, some of these things are processes that we already do. I mean, and what I find really interesting about the reasonable inquiry is it's -- it makes a supposition that these, you know, elections officials, these supervisors who come in are there magically on Wednesday morning. They are there now.
They are literally the superintendent of the elections. They work with the employees to decide the polling locations, train the poll workers, look at the processes, look at early voting, watch what they're doing for absentees. They're there and involved all the process. So they're basically certifying their own work.
COOPER: The idea of hand counting, would that slow down the certification process? I mean, and if so, do you have a sense of how long it would add to the timetable?
STERLING: I don't think it would slow down the certification process because one of the other things that we got out of a couple of court rulings over the last couple of weeks is November 12th at 5:00 p.m., all counties shall certify their election. That's state law and that is going to happen.
This hand counting thing may delay results coming in, which is also a bad thing because one of the things we've seen in the studies is that people trust results to get there quickly. And frankly, to me, it's a much more insecure thing to do. We have 2,500 polling locations. The rule that they pass requires three people to be there to hand tally those votes, which means you have 7,500 human beings opening up a secure box, taking out the votes that are in a chain of custody, handling them and putting them back.
In 2,500 locations with 7,500 people, not enough monitors. There wasn't enough processes to put around this. It's just -- it's a bad idea to ever change rules this close to an election, especially on something that can open up the chain of custody like that, which we think is really against the law.
[20:45:12]
COOPER: Well, Gabriel Sterling, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.
STERLING: Thank you, Anderson. Have a good night.
COOPER: So tonight marks the debut of a new segment, Ballot Watch, our look at voting concerns around the country. In this case, Wisconsin, where the debate over whether or not ballot drop boxes are safe has led to some tense moments.
CNN's Sara Murray has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are fed up with politicians using conspiracy theories. No matter which party you support, drop boxes are safe, they are reliable and secure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are securing the box.
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: We're waiting for this city council meeting to start and on one side we've got people who are in favor of the drop box. On the other side, we've got people who are skeptical about the drop box. They want it to go away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm for back for back. You're better stop (INAUDIBLE) or better step away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's wrong with our politics? Like I can't even --
MURRAY: The cops are here to keep the two sides separate.
MURRAY (voice-over): The battle over whether ballot drop boxes are safe is playing out across the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no one monitoring that box.
MURRAY (voice-over): Here in Wausau, Wisconsin, tension is building after Mayor Doug Diny put on a hard hat and wheeled away the city's drop box.
MAYOR DOUG DINY, WAUSAU, WISCONSIN: This is a hot button item. The agenda was changed late last night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not agenda. It's not proper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Point of order.
DINY: What is your point of order?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My point of order is you're out of order.
MURRAY (voice-over): After Diny wheeled the drop box away, the city clerk who administers elections reported it to local authorities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The State Justice Department is now investigating the city's mayor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ballot drop security is an issue on which he campaigned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am very embarrassed for our city.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is just one more example of the deep state right at work in Little Wausau.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arguing about a box is dumb and it's decadent.
MURRAY: Wisconsin has been battling over where you can return your ballot for years. In 2020, they had drop boxes. In 2022, they weren't allowed. In 2024, the makeup of the State Supreme Court changed. It's more liberal and now drop boxes are back.
TRUMP: We want to get rid of fake drop boxes. They're a fake.
MURRAY: I'm Sara Murray with CNN. Can we just --
DINY: Mind if I come around in front. I brought it inside because it was unsecured. For all I know, you know, somebody could have grabbed it, thrown it in the river. Now we would have a real crime on our hands.
MURRAY: Some of those people are saying, I mean, you might have done something illegal in moving the box.
DINY: No, absolutely not. No.
MURRAY: Have you heard anything about all of these, you know, investigations --
DINY: No.
MURRAY: -- that may be related to this? No, you haven't heard anything. Do you regret moving it?
DINY: You know, there's a saying that dogs don't bark at parked cars. I've had to get attention here from time to time to upset the status quo.
MURRAY (voice-over): Now that the drop box is in use, it's secured to the ground, locked and emptied by officials daily.
TRUMP: These drop boxes are fraudulent. Therefore, they get -- they disappear. And then all of a sudden they show up. It's fraudulent.
MURRAY (voice-over): Drop boxes have become a magnet for misinformation. The issue came up again during Trump's rally in Juneau, Wisconsin.
MURRAY: So how did you end up on stage at the Trump rally?
SHERIFF DALE SCHMIDT, DODGE COUNTY, WISCONSIN: It really was just a call up from the president.
I have something very important I think you're going to want to hear. In Dodge County in this 2024 election, there are zero drop boxes for the election.
(APPLAUSE)
MURRAY (voice-over): Sheriff Dale Schmidt successfully discouraged some municipal clerks from using drop boxes. But a handful remain in Dodge County, despite his warnings.
SCHMIDT: If we have an area of the law which is constantly being subverted, we're going to find ways to put roadblocks in the way of individuals that are going to break the law.
MURRAY: You're suggesting that, you know, the ballot boxes are constantly being subverted and there's just -- there is not proof to back that up.
SCHMIDT: There is the appearance that it is occurring and we are making sure that it's not going to happen.
MURRAY: But you are not an election official. So why should your doubts about the election set the tone for how this whole county should vote?
SCHMIDT: Because I have to investigate the crimes that happen if they happen. And my --
MURRAY: If they happen, but they haven't been reported yet.
SCHMIDT: Well, we have election law violation that happens just about every time around. So when election law is violated, I have to investigate that.
MURRAY (voice-over): In a county Trump won by 30 points in 2020, Schmidt says the local community is with him.
SCHMICT: But I'm very well supported by our constituency here. Do I answer to the rest of the country? No, I don't. I answer to my voters here in Dodge County.
MURRAY (voice-over): Sara Murray, CNN, Juneau, Wisconsin.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: Well coming up next, a new episode of my podcast about grief and loss called "All There Is" has just been released. Whoopi Goldberg is my guest for moving conversation about the ripple effects of grief in her life. A preview in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:54:41]
COOPER: The latest episode of my podcast "All There Is" was just released about 10 minutes ago. It's available tonight wherever you get your podcast. You can listen right now by pointing your cell phone camera at the QR code on the screen and then click on the link that pops up.
Whoopi Goldberg, Oscar winning actor, comedian, co-host of "The View" on ABC is my guest on this episode. She speaks very candidly and movingly about her mother, Emma Johnson, who died in 2010, and her brother, Clyde, who died five years later.
[20:55:06]
And she shares some of her grief experiences in a best-selling memoir, "Bits and Pieces: My Mother, Brother, and Me." Here's a preview of the new episode of the podcast. I started by asking Whoopi about a traumatic experience she had as a child when she came home and found her mom having a mental health crisis.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, COMEDIAN: She was standing in front of the open door of the closet, shaking, kind of shaking and muttering. And then I came and said, Ma, you know, Ma, Ma. And then she kind of just turned around, went over to the stove, turned the gas on, and put her head in it.
And I thought, this is bad. So what do I do? What do I do?
COOPER: It must have been terrifying.
GOLDBERG: Well, I think some adult thing in my brain said, you have to speak to her and ask what's happening. You have to ask her clearly. And so this little kid said, Ma. And she pulled her head out and she said, go get Ms. Viola, who was our downstairs neighbor.
COOPER: She pulled her head out of the oven.
GOLDBERG: She pulled her head out of the oven. And I could smell the gas. So I got Ms. Viola, and she called the ambulance. They tied my mother to the gurney, waited for the elevator to come, and off they went. And no one said, oh, and this is what's going on.
COOPER: When she returned from two years being locked up --
GOLDBERG: Yes. COOPER: -- and having electroconvulsive therapy and God knows what else, she had no idea who you were.
GOLDBERG: No. She said, can I tell you a secret? I said, yes. She said, I didn't know who you were when they brought me back. I just knew that whatever they said, if they said the sky was orange and I saw it was blue, I was going to say it was orange.
COOPER: Because she did not want to be sent back there.
GOLDBERG: Never.
COOPER: You wrote something that I -- you said, "I had no clue that things would change so dramatically for me once they were gone. It's not like either one could have done anything about dying. But from time to time, I feel like, why did he all leave me here?"
GOLDBERG: Yes.
COOPER: I asked the eyes (ph).
GOLDBERG: Yes. Yes. But the answer to that is because we have stuff we got to get done. That's why. And we're not supposed to -- this is not our time. It's not our time. We got kids and grandkids and they need to know us. They need to know us. That's why. That's my belief, you know.
COOPER: Yes.
GOLDBERG: Yes. Yes. It happens. It just happens. Yes.
COOPER: Yes. But, yes, that -- I find myself asking that question, like, yes, why did you leave?
GOLDBERG: Yes. Why did you leave me? There were three of us.
COOPER: I also realized when I asked that, that it's very much -- it's the question like the 10-year-old me is asking quite --
GOLDBERG: Yes.
COOPER: It's like the angry question of a hard-hearted child of like, why did you all leave?
GOLDBERG: Yes.
COOPER: Yes.
GOLDBERG: Yes. And, you know, I once flirted, once flirted with thinking about leaving. And then I thought how -- what a terrible thing that would be to do to my kid, to knowingly do to my kid, who actually likes me, you know? You know, she's a really good person and a fine woman and she's raised -- she and her husband have raised three fine, very bizarre children.
And why would you do that to them? Why would you leave them with that? So --
COOPER: Yes.
GOLDBERG: -- decided not to, you know. Yes.
COOPER: I'm glad.
GOLDBERG: Yes, me too, I think.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Well, a reminder, there are resources. If you or someone you know needs help, you can call or text the suicide and crisis lifeline at 988. It's open 24 hours a day.
The full interview with Whoopi Goldberg is available now to listen. You can point your camera at the QR code on the screen, click on the link that pops up. You can also get the podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts.
We've also started something new, an online grief community at cnn.com/allthereisonline. It's a way I hope you can feel a little less lonely in your grief. You can connect with me and others living with grief. You can leave comments and share your own experiences as well.
You can listen to the podcast there. You can watch the entire video version of the interview with Whoopi. You can also watch it on CNN's YouTube channel right now.
Check out the new online grief community at cnn.com/allthereisonline.
That's it for us. The news continues. I'll see you tomorrow. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
