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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Trump Team Raising Questions About Hegseth's Viability For Defense; Johnson: Will "Strongly Request" Ethics CMTE not Issue Gaetz Report; Trump Picks Criminal Defense Attorneys for Key DOJ Posts; Giuliani Turns Over His 1980 Mercedes-Benz Convertible, Luxury Watches And Diamond Ring To Women He Defamed; What Current Research Says About RFK Jr.'s Fluoride Claims; Mike Tyson Vs. Jake Paul In The Ring. Aired: 8-9p ET

Aired November 15, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: They were able to incorporate a lot of lifestyle activities in to this. You lose fat when you take these drugs but you also lose muscle, that's another consideration and a concern. Losing lean muscle mass predispose you to falls and other things.

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And thank you for joining us, AC360 starts now.

[20:00:32]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, breaking news, the Trump transition team caught off-guard about their pick for defense secretary and raising questions about his viability as a sexual assault allegation from his past comes to light.

Also tonight, attorney general pick, Matt Gaetz. And a stunning new development concerning the House Ethics report on his sexual misconduct allegations, but the House speaker now says he'll work to keep secret.

And Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. says hell prioritize removing fluoride from drinking water in a Trump administration. What does the science say about it? Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us to explain.

Good evening.

We begin tonight with new reporting on the president-elect's choice to head the Department of Defense, "Fox & Friends" Weekend host, Pete Hegseth. Now as you may know, a story surfaced late last night that he was accused of sexually assaulting a woman in Monterey, California, in 2017. No charges resulted from the investigation.

Now, two sources tell CNN that this is raising questions within the Trump transition team about whether Hegseth's nomination is still viable. Hegseth received very little internal vetting before the president-elect chose him, and no external vetting at all.

So this 2017 allegation may have come as a surprise. Much more, though, about the former army major and combat veteran is well known, mainly because he's made no secret of it over the years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, US SECRETARY OF DEFENSE NOMINEE: I'm straight up just saying, we should not have women in combat roles. Men in these positions are more capable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, Hegseth like his would-be boss, has also been outspoken about military commanders and efforts to incorporate diversity, equity and inclusion training for US servicemembers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: Any general that was involved, general, admiral, whatever that was involved in any of the DEI woke shit has got to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: He also has weighed in on gay and lesbian service members, which he says have had a negative effect on recruitment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: They, in search of a nontraditional constituency, they offended their core constituency so there aren't enough lesbians in San Francisco to man the 82nd Airborne and in trying to cater to that, they lost the boys from Tennessee and Kentucky and Oklahoma. The traditional dudes who did it because they wanted -- they loved their country, or they wanted the adventure, or they wanted to try tough things, or they need an up and out of their community.

Whatever it is, they're like, if I wanted to do the woke crap, I could go to the local community college or local college. I don't need it here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So that's Pete Hegseth just last week, he put out a book this year dedicated to views like that titled "War on Warriors." In it, he writes: "The problem is that a more empathetic and effeminate military isn't a more efficient one. It's a more inefficient one that puts everyone at risk." He added, "Dads push us to take risks. Mom put the training wheels on our bikes."

Hegseth has also advocated, on behalf of Eddie Gallagher, the Navy SEAL convicted of and demoted for posing with a dead ISIS casualty in Iraq. A number of people Gallagher actually served with testified against him, then President Trump ultimately restored Gallagher's rank. A little more than a year later, Hegseth would go on to cast doubt on the 2020 election and take a sympathetic view toward the people who stormed the Capitol. Here, he is on January 7th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: I'm actually not surprised. I wasn't surprised by what happened yesterday. I'm not saying it's okay, but I wasn't shocked. I recognized that people feel like the entire system is rigged against them, and then they look at what Antifa and Black Lives Matter have gotten away with.

And no, no, no, I'm sorry, you can't go to church, but I can riot during COVID. And I'm told that that's okay. But if we gather as a group, we're condemned for being a bunch of conspiracy theorists who are not patriotic. I don't buy it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Pete Hegseth is also what some would call a family values advocate. He's written a social conservative should work to prevent in his words, wanton divorce. Hegseth is on his third marriage. His first two ended in divorce after he had affairs with co-workers and not that this really has much to do with anything, but it is kind of interesting. He apparently doesn't wash his hands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: I don't think I've washed my hands for ten years. Really, I don't really wash my hands.

FEMALE CO-HOST: Someone help me.

HEGSETH: I inoculate myself. Germs are not a real thing, I can't see them, therefore they're not real.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Eh, germs are not a real. For more on this, we're joined by CNN's Kaitlan Collins and John Miller. Kaitlan, what are you hearing about the transition team and the viability of this nomination?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: So this all went down where essentially it was a very short time period from where Pete Hegseth's name was suggested, and then he was brought to Mar-a-Lago and was offered the job of the largest federal agency obviously one of --

COOPER: Do you know, if it was -- was that something he was pushing for? Do you know?

[20:05:08]

COLLINS: I think -- he's a veteran, so, he's been associated with the military. Trump once considered him actually for Veterans Affairs back during his first term. I actually talked to people who worked for Trump in the first term today about this who were surprised because they all knew that there were rumors out there, nothing substantiated, but he didn't go far the last time he was considered for VA, because there were questions about whether or not he could get confirmed, what this process looks like. It's really ugly obviously.

And so, you know, but these are all people who were there in the first term. And that doesn't seem to have been something that was brought up when he went to Mar-a-Lago for this interview this time around.

So it only had been about 48 hours after Trump announced Pete Hegseth as his choice for Defense Secretary when this allegation was brought to Trump's transition team, mainly Susie Wiles, who, of course is the incoming chief-of-staff. And it led to this moment where she had to question Pete Hegseth over this and whether or not there was any more damaging information out there.

Now, his attorney, Tim Parlatore has noted that no charges were filed in this --

COOPER: We noted that as well.

COLLINS: --and has denied all wrongdoing. But I think the question that were hearing tonight inside the Trump team is, is there more to come, is there going to be another shoe to drop? Is this going to be a bigger issue? And there are real questions about his viability as a nominee.

COOPER: And, is it clear how much from what you're hearing from sources, how much vetting was actually done on him?

COLLINS: So there was internal vetting, but there's -- it's being done at times by a private investigator. And this is not someone who's like a member of Congress where, you know, their records are usually pretty exposed by the time they're a lawmaker.

He's a television host, obviously, now a former veteran or a veteran. And in that situation, I should note, you know, when someone wins the presidency, you sign these memorandums of understanding with the current administration, these ethics agreements. That's how you start the FBI background check process.

Trump's team has still not signed any of those. I just confirmed that a few hours ago. So no one has gotten an FBI background check yet from my understanding.

COOPER: And John, what more do we know about these allegations?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, as far as the case, the police department in Monterey acknowledges they received the report on a date between a specific time, which is about eight hours, at a hotel but they also point out that they won't release the investigative file or the investigators' notes or analysis.

But what we know is, if police went there and they conducted a standard investigation for a similar allegation, you would go to the place where they met and talked to witnesses there.

If you could find one, you'd get receipts from the bar and see who had what. You would exploit whatever video there is in that hotel to see if you could trace them back to a room where this happened.

They're not commenting that those steps were made. Those would be normal. But I think the problem they're facing in this case is what prosecutors always face in, he said, she said cases that happened behind closed doors, which is they have two distinct, different versions of what occurred and what was consent.

And the prosecutor's office, probably came to the conclusion that they didn't have enough to sustain a conviction at trial to go forward. So that file is basically closed right now.

COOPER: And, Kaitlan, is there a chance he would pull his own nomination?

COLLINS: It's not clear what I had heard from his side of people that I spoke to him, that are close to him. There was no intention as of yesterday, these things can sometimes happen quickly though, and we have seen nominees do this in the past where they've taken themselves out of the running for something like this.

So I wouldn't say no. There's no indication so far that he plans to do so. And I also would say you know, I talked to people today and I asked you, is this something that the president elect is worried about? Is he paying attention to this?

Because he always tracks negative coverage of people around him. His views of something are often shaped by whether coverage is good or bad. They said so far that he had not raised any issues or any concerns with what's being reported.

COOPER: And there's this other incident at the time he was at the National Guard in Biden's inauguration, which he has spoken publicly about. What are the details, John?

MILLER: I think that what you're talking about there is a symptom of this background investigation problem, which is private investigations even done rapidly by private firms will give you a dive into their internet background, a dive into maybe the deep web, a dive into their social media. You can sit them down and interview them and ask them, what's embarrassing that we need to know about in your background.

But what it's not going to touch on is things like, what are the Defense Department's records about a National Guard incident? What are the classified holdings where somebody may have been picked up or recorded or referenced in a meeting with intelligence officers overseas? That's going to become a big blind spot.

COOPER: All right. John Miller, thanks very much. Kaitlan Collins, as well. Kaitlan is going to be back at the top of the hour, of course, with the program, "The Source".

Perspective now from Matt Mowers, who served in the first Trump administration, CNN contributor and "New York Times" journalist and podcast host Lulu Garcia-Navarro and also CNN senior political commentator, David Axelrod.

So, David, what do you make of Kaitlan's reporting about Hegseth, and do you think this nomination will go forward?

[20:10:13]

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know what's interesting is like 24 hours ago, he seemed like, of a bunch of very, very stunning nominations, he seemed like the most likely to get through without a problem. And now, he's leading the broadcast and I think, and you know, others may have a comment on this, Trump is a guy who has found liable of sexual assault.

So, I'm not sure that it would -- that would disqualify him as a Trump nominee. I don't think that's something that would disturb the president. The real question is, how do the people who are supposed to provide advice and consent react to all of the stories not just about Hegseth, but about Bobby Kennedy, Jr., about the other nominations, obviously, Matt Gaetz.

So, you know, are they going to execute their responsibilities or are they going to -- are they going to accept no FBI background check, are they going to accept not receiving the report about Matt Gaetz from the House Ethics Committee? Are they going to simply, if they can't pass these nominees, are they going to step aside and let there be a recess vote essentially, the uncourageous way of bowing to Trumps will.

But he seems intent on just blowing up the process here. And maybe he will with Hegseth as well.

COOPER: Matt, is this something the Trump transition team should have caught while vetting Hegseth?

MATT MOWERS, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well, you know, usually what would happen in this case is you would ask questions about this, right? You get the full vetting documents, you ask questions of the potential nominees. I mean, these are certainly questions that will also be raised during a background investigation that will at some point have to be done. And whether it's done as part of the confirmation process or whether it's done to get a security clearance to go in, those are questions that are going to have to be asked.

And really, right now it comes down to how does he answer these questions? I mean, what is his true side of the story and how effectively can he target his audience of essentially 50 people? I mean, he has to get 50 individuals to agree that he's qualified to go serve as Secretary of Defense and look, based on what those who know him well have spoken to him and the things he's written. He certainly is smart and intelligent and capable. He's thought about military preparedness. He's thought about Pentagon reforms in depth. So he has a lot to offer but then they're going to have to ask questions about this in a way. And he's got to give an answer in a way that actually gives them some real comfort.

COOPER: Yes. Lulu, I mean, as I've said before, you know, President- elect Trump was found liable for sexual abuse in E. Jean Carroll case, been accused by multiple women of sexual assault. Do you think something like this would ever prompt Trump to abandon his nominee?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, how many sexual assault allegations can one Cabinet have? I mean, we have a series of people basically having similar issues and frankly, the issue with Hegseth in particular, obviously, this is an allegation, there hasn't been any proof that this happened, but he is going to be running the largest agency which has a lot of females in its ranks. A lot of you know, with a large history of problems dealing with sexual assault within the military and so how is this going to play for the men and women that he would be leading?

You know, all of this is just a bigger problem than, can he get the nomination. It is also about if he did get the nomination, what would that mean? How then would some of these things be investigated? How would he be respected? I mean, it is a much larger issue than simply the audience of 50. It is actually the audience of the hundreds of thousands of people that work for the DoD.

COOPER: David, I mean, can you just explain how the vetting process traditionally works in a transition? I mean, is it something that Hegseth should have told the Trump team about, even if it didn't get flagged? I mean, would he be able to pass -- get a security clearance?

AXELROD: Well, all I can tell you is certainly at that level, even at the level that I was at, as a senior adviser to the president, you know, we were investigated and interviewed by the FBI and we were asked all kinds of questions and our past records would be examined and it would be a very thorough review as it should be for the Secretary of Defense.

But as I said earlier, the president elect seems to, you know like, like he sunders other norms, he is sundering this one and it really could come back and bite him if other things arise and if these people get nominated.

[20:15:15]

I just want to make one point, Anderson. You know, people say I'm one who believes that presidents should get picks within reason but there is an advice and consent for a reason. Donald Trump did not have a mandate to appoint people simply on the basis of loyalty.

There is broad consensus that Matt Gaetz isn't qualified by anything that he's done, and maybe not by character. He's qualified because he is a stalwart Trump supporter. Now he wants to install his whole legal defense team as the other senior officers of the Justice Department. These decisions -- Tulsi Gabbard no real experience in intelligence, just a lot of experience in spreading propaganda about Vladimir Putin has circulated.

This is all about loyalty to Donald Trump and he thinks all of these agencies should respond to him and not bear responsibility to the public. And I think there could be a real -- a really, really big liability here. This is a president who said he's running to make people safe and whether its Bobby Kennedy at the Health Department, Gaetz in the Justice Department, Tulsi Gabbard who has, you know, in intelligence.

This jeopardizes the American people. And not having any screening of these candidates in a real way is pretty alarming to everyone.

COOPER: We're going to take a quick break. We're going to have more and new details that broke just moments ago about Matt Gaetz, the president-elect's pick for attorney general, the House Ethics Committee was investigating allegations about him. Now new reports, a woman told that committee that she saw Gaetz have sex with a minor.

Plus, it might not be the fight of the century, but it is one for the ages, former heavyweight champ Mike Tyson, age 58, against Jake Paul, who is 31 years older, or excuse me younger. The big hype and the big money both men will earn ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:21:35]

COOPER: Well, there's more breaking news tonight, potentially serious, involving the president-elect's choice for attorney general. Former Congressman Matt Gaetz, who just resigned his House seat days ahead of an Ethics Committee report involving sexual misconduct allegations against him.

Tonight, the attorney who represents two women who were witnesses in the probe, confirmed that one of his clients says she saw Gaetz having sex with a minor. CNN has reached out to Gaetz for comment. The attorney said that both his clients sat for closed door testimony before the committee.

He's now calling on the committee to release the report, telling CNN, "democracy demands transparency." Just one catch. House Speaker Mike Johnson wants to keep it under wraps, even though just yesterday he said off camera that he would not be playing a part in the matter. But that was yesterday. This was today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I'm going to strongly request the Ethics Committee not to issue the report because that is not the way we do things in the House, and I think that would be a terrible precedent to set.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So he's saying it would be a terrible precedent to release this report. He's warning against it after a member steps down but keeping them honest, the House Ethics Committee has done this before, most notably in a financial impropriety case for former Tennessee Congressman Bill Boner, who left the House to become mayor of Nashville and former Ohio Congressman Donald Buzz Lukens, who was convicted of having sex with a minor.

Now, in the former's case, the committee decided that the general policy of not releasing reports on former members was, "outweighed by the responsibility of the committee to fully inform the public." And that was for a would be city mayor, not the highest ranking law enforcement official in the land.

Back now with our panel. David, how much do you think or do you think this witnesses' testimony to the House Ethics Committee according to her attorney, that she saw gates have sex with a minor complicates what was already expected to be an uphill battle for Gaetz.

AXELROD: Well, look, I think that the senate is going to demand to see that report. Senator Cornyn, a senior Republican, has said he wants to see the report. He said that today. I think others will join him. And it's going to be really hard to explain to the American people why the senators who are trying to judge whether this guy should be the top law enforcement official in the United States of America, why information that was gathered under by a bipartisan probe in the House should not be available to them.

It doesn't have an FBI evaluation. This report is being withheld from them, can you sneak him into the attorney general's office simply because he's willing to do whatever Donald Trump wants? I mean, this is really a test for the Senate in my view.

The Article I of the Constitution is very clear. They have a responsibility to play here and the question is whether their loyalty is to the Constitution or whether it's to Donald Trump.

COOPER: Lulu. I mean, it is odd that Speaker Johnson is claiming that this would break precedent releasing this report on Matt Gaetz, considering, I mean it's been done before.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: That's not why he changed his tune. He's obviously changed his tune because Donald Trump wants him to change his tune. And the fact of the matter is, is that Speaker Johnson actually doesn't have the final say on this. The committee does. They can choose to release the report if they so want to.

You know, this is again, one body of Congress having to inform another body of Congress. So, this isn't like to release it to the general public even or to release it to the media to satisfy them. It's actually because it will help the Senate do their jobs.

[20:25:22]

Now, here we are at a moment when it is Republican senators who are actually the only firewall for Donald Trump. And I think what he's up to here is that he wants to really break Congress early, as early as possible. We are ten days out of this election, and we are already in a sort of standoff with Congress.

You can only imagine what's going to happen when he gets into power. This is him trying to break it early so that when he gets there, there really won't be anything to stop him.

COOPER: Matt, if an attorney is coming forward and saying he has these two clients who have testified and this is what one client saw. I mean, do you think this changes things? MOWERS: Yes, I mean, I don't know if it changes anything because I think Matt Gaetz was going to have trouble getting confirmed even before these new revelations. I mean, we were just talking about Pete Hegseth. And, you know best, to my knowledge, no one has ever accused him of any of those things prior to this. And so, he's going to be given a little bit of the benefit of the doubt to explain himself.

Compare that to Matt Gaetz, who it is well documented what the ethics committee has been investigating and every single Senator has been following this for a number of years. And I would expect that that report, whether it gets leaked to "The New York Times" or whether it gets sent to the Senate in a formal request eventually is going to get to the senators here.

I'm not sure that he was even in a place anyway, that he'd be able to get to at least 50 votes given how senators personally feel about Matt Gaetz because of his personality and antics in the House, let alone with all these allegations, there.

You know, the thing that's going to likely even cement this form is just the drip, drip, drip nature of the way that this information is coming out. The longer that this nomination sits out there the more likely it is that more of these scandalous details go out, the more we hear about -- likely a lot of other eyewitnesses who are interviewed and it's just going to be problematic for him and problematic for the president.

And so, we'll have to see exactly how this goes down. But my hunch is that it does at some point.

COOPER: David, we mentioned CNN's reporting that Trump allies are pushing for Kash Patel to be the FBI director.

AXELROD: Yes.

COOPER: Every president, as you said, I mean, you think most presidents should be able to get all the people around them who they want. So, many of these nominees have previously expressed obviously open hostility for the very same departments that they would end up overseeing.

AXELROD: Yes, not to mention the fact that he has been in the forefront of saying he wants to weaponize the FBI to go after the president's political enemies, to go after reporters who displease the president. You know, what is very, very clear, and we've heard Donald Trump baying about the criminal justice system, about the Justice Department, about the FBI now for four years or five years, and he is going to put -- he wants to put loyalists in there who will do what he wants.

He thinks those agencies actually work for him. You know, I'm old enough to remember Watergate and after Watergate, President Ford called in a new Attorney General, Edward Levy, to restore the public faith in that institution because it had been used for political purposes and now, in one fell swoop, this president wants to reverse 50 years of history and norms and return this these agencies to a very, very political footing.

You know, we'll see if he appoints Kash Patel. But one thing on the on the Gaetz issue, apparently this nomination was cooked up on a flight from Florida to Washington. That is the way he was nominated, that he was on the plane. They all thought, well, this is a good idea. No background check, no thought to what this ethics evaluation or ethics report would mean.

It's a crazy dangerous way to appoint one of the most important figures in the United States government.

COOPER: Lulu, members of President-elect Trump's criminal defense team have also been tapped for top roles in the Department of Justice. I mean, in any other administration, this would be unusual. Do you think they will fly under the radar with everyone? Everyone is discussing, you know, Matt Gaetz, Tulsi Gabbard, or Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, I mean, this is the thing, right? You're flooding the zone and so the scrutiny that something like that would get if a different president were doing that -- a president-elect would doing that. Now, it's sort of like eh, you know, where are you going to actually target your ire? And this is the thing, you might put up a Matt Gaetz to deflect from some of the other, more problematic, that would be otherwise problematic in a different administration.

So, this is the thing, flooding the zone, making sure that there's just this constant chaos, constant feeling of displacement so that ultimately, he's going to get the Cabinet that he wants.

[20:30:25]

COOPER: Matt Mowers, Lulu Garcia-Navarro, David Axelrod, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, time is money for Rudy Giuliani, who had to turn over luxury items like his watch collection today to comply with a nearly $150 million defamation case that he lost. We'll check in with our Kara Scannell to see if he met his court order deadline.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:35:01]

COOPER: Well, today was the deadline for the president-elect's one- time lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, to turn over basically his possessions, luxury items that he owns to comply with a nearly $150 million judgment that he lost last year to two Georgia election workers who he cruelly defamed.

He was told last week by a judge that if he missed the deadline to turn over dozens of items, he could be held in contempt. His lawyers had argued that Giuliani wanted to turn over the items, he just didn't know how.

I'm joined now by our Kara Scannell and by former Federal Prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin. What did Giuliani need to turn over and what did he do, did he?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So today, he -- there was a list, a definitive list of things that he had to turn over. Among them, and these are the items he did turn over, his 1980 Mercedes that was once owned by Lauren Bacall, about two dozen watches, he had FedExed to the women, and he also turned over some bank accounts.

Now, he has been in the process of transferring his Manhattan apartment, that penthouse apartment, to the women. But today, he has new lawyers and they're saying they want the refrigerator that was in that apartment back. So he's already looking for some kinds of loopholes to try to get some assets back.

COOPER: What's so great about the refrigerator?

SCANNELL: Well, under the law, you're allowed to have certain assets that are personal items and you can have a refrigerator, so he's saying he needs that refrigerator that was in that apartment.

COOPER: OK.

SCANNELL: Also, he was supposed to turn over a number of items that were in a personal storage unit in Long Island, including sports memorabilia. Using that same logic, he's saying that since he's allowed to keep apparel, he should be able to keep a signed Joe DiMaggio shirt.

COOPER: OK.

SCANNELL: So, we'll see what the judge thinks of all of this.

COOPER: Wow.

SCANNELL: So he's turned over some things, but he didn't turn over everything.

COOPER: And, I mean, is there any chance that Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman, who are the two women who, you know, were working, just doing their jobs, who he made incredibly defamatory statements about making all sorts of allegations, I mean, very unfairly, will they ever receive all the money that was awarded to them?

SCANNELL: I mean, it's -- they're looking at the assets that he has, so --

COOPER: I mean, it's --

SCANNELL: -- he doesn't have --

COOPER: -- thin rule. It's like, it's not exactly -- I mean, if he's arguing over a refrigerator, it's not like -- yes.

SCANNELL: Right, I mean, these assets are not that much. So to get to $150 million --

COOPER: Yes. SCANNELL: -- seems impossible.

COOPER: Jeff, I mean, do you think he's -- there's no way they're going to get this money. I mean, he doesn't have that money, does he?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Not even close. But, you know, it's worth remembering a little of the history here. You know, we have a system in this country for people who can't pay their debts, and it's called bankruptcy.

And it allows you to, you know, save some personal items and pay off what you can and just reorganize your finances and get back on your feet. And Giuliani originally declared bankruptcy. But what he did was he tried to game the system.

He wasn't fully candid with the bankruptcy judge. So the bankruptcy judge threw him out and said, you're not going to -- you can't declare bankruptcy if this is how you're going to behave. So this is why Judge Liman, who's in the federal district court, is saying, look, you know, I'm just taking everything you have.

And that's why we are where you are.

COOPER: It's incredible to me, Jeff. I mean, he used to be the system, and now, according to this judge, he's trying to game the system?

TOOBIN: I know you're shocked, Anderson.

COOPER: I mean, it's just pathetic is what it is.

TOOBIN: Well, I mean, the fall from grace of Rudy Giuliani is one of the amazing stories of the past two decades. I mean, you know, I don't have to remind people, this was America's mayor after 9/11. You know, this was a very serious candidate for president in 2008, leading in the polls.

And the collapse of his life as a result of his association with Donald Trump is so epic that it really dwarfs fiction.

COOPER: This is like a 10-part Max series. It's like Gamora, but the English version, and Rudy Giuliani is the lead.

TOOBIN: And -- it is.

COOPER: Yes. What kind of -- Kara, what kind of penalties did Giuliani face if, I mean, if he doesn't pony up?

SCANNELL: Well, I mean, the judge said he wouldn't hold him in contempt unless he showed like a real effort to try to get assets that he couldn't turn over. So for the man that was once the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and put many people in jail, he himself could end up in jail if he's found to be in contempt.

COOPER: I mean, Jeff, do you think that is actually possible?

TOOBIN: Oh, definitely. If you listen to what Judge Liman has been saying, you know, Liman has had it with Rudy. I mean, he has had delay after delay, these ridiculous arguments about, you know, I couldn't get into his own storage locker and he delayed turning over the apartment. I mean, I think he is this close from being locked up.

Now, he did turn stuff over today, as Kara said. So he did start to cooperate. But if he continues playing games with this judge, he's going to be locked up absolutely (INAUDIBLE).

[20:40:01]

COOPER: And Kara, lawyers who had been working with Giuliani, did they just quit?

SCANNELL: Yes. Earlier this week, just two days ago before this deadline, they said they wanted to withdraw from the case. And a lot of the reasons were blacked out in the document for the public to see, but they did reveal that it was under these professional ethics rules.

And among one of those things is disagreement with the client and the client not doing what they want them to do and actually, you know, being in disagreement, wanting to do something that might not be compliant with the law. So earlier today, just a few hours ago, Giuliani said he has a new lawyer and now his new lawyer weighed in with the judge.

COOPER: All right. Kara Scannell, thanks very much. Jeff Toobin as well.

Up next, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the president-elect's pick for Health and Human Services. His position on fluoride and tap water, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us to discuss the science.

Also tonight's much hyped, Mike Tyson-Jake Paul fight featuring a one- time heavyweight champ versus social media starless and a half his age. What we know about both of them and how much money they're going to make for the fight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:23]

COOPER: Opposition to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s Health and Human Services secretary appears to be building for Republicans like former Vice President Mike Pence, who denounced Kennedy today in his position on abortion. For Democrats, it's about Kennedy's conspiracy theories about vaccines.

There's also public debate about something he stated days before the election about what would happen if the president-elect won. Quote, "On January 20th, the Trump White House will advise all U.S. water systems to remove fluoride from public water. Fluoride is an industrial waste associated with arthritis, bone fractures, bone cancer, IQ loss, neurodevelopmental disorders, and thyroid disease. President Trump and First Lady Melania Trump want to make America healthy again." Now, fluoride, which local governments began adding to water supplies in 1945, is added in small quantities to help prevent cavities. The American Academy of Pediatrics and American Dental Association and CDC continue to support it, but recent studies have raised questions about the potential health risks and the degree to which fluoride is helpful.

In September, a federal judge decided there is sufficient evidence to warrant the EPA investigating. Now, it's that court decision and the research Kennedy cited in an interview after Trump's win last week.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., TRUMP'S PICK FOR HHS SECRETARY: I think fluoride is on the way out because of that court decision. I think the faster that it goes out, the better. I'm not going to compel anybody to take it out, but I'm going to advise the water districts about their legal liability, their legal obligation to their service zones and to their constituents. And I'm going to -- and I give them good information about the science. And I think that fluoride will disappear.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: I'm joined now by our Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. So what does the science say about fluoride in tap water?

GUPTA: Well, I think this may surprise some people because unlike vaccines and autism, for example, which is settled science, this is still emerging, and I think that court case that you just referenced, asking the EPA to sort of re-evaluate that has put a new spotlight on it. That's what RFK Jr. is sort of alluding to there.

So what is interesting is that when you think about the two sides of this issue, the CDC on one hand saying, hey, look, this is one of the greatest public health achievements of the 20th century. That's what they put on their website, and the reason they say so is because their data suggests that it has reduced cavities by about 25 percent. So a pretty significant reduction.

But on the other side of the argument is this idea that at certain doses, it could be a neurotoxin, fluoride. So I want you to take a look at this full screen here, and as you look at this, keep in mind something that we say in medicine all the time that the dose makes the poison. OK, the dose makes the poison.

So when you look at that, what they're saying is with moderate confidence, fluoride exposure of more than 1.5 milligrams per liter is associated with lower IQ in children with moderate confidence. There is very low confidence, there is low confidence, there is moderate, there is high. So, you know, the significant amount of confidence.

In the United States, because of the United States Public Health Service, they recommend 0.7, so about half of that. World Health Organization, incidentally, says right around 1.5 is the safety limit for them. So you can sort of see the concern here. On one hand, you know, there's the evidence that it's reduced cavities. On the other side is this evidence that at certain doses, it can be, with moderate confidence, a neurotoxin. In some places around the country, Anderson, the levels are higher than this because fluoride is occurring naturally as well in the water in addition to it sometimes being added into the water. So in some places, it can exceed those values, and I think that's the issue that he's really raising.

COOPER: And what are concerns if fluoride is removed from the water supply?

GUPTA: Well, the big concern, again, from the CDC is going to be --

COOPER: And, by the way, how hard would that also be?

GUPTA: OK, so with regard to the first question, what you'll hear from CDC, ADA, American Dental Association and others would be that could this signal a return of cavities, essentially, reduced cavities by 25 percent. You take it out, cavities are going to come back.

Now, I will say that there's been a few places where they've done this. A study that people often point to is one that came out of Calgary in 2011. They removed fluoride for a lot of the same issues that we're talking about. This has been discussed for some time now.

They decided to put it back in in 2021, 10 years later, because they saw an increase in cavities. When we review the data, and Cochrane has reviewed the data as well, what you find is that a lot of the studies done before 1975. The benefit is clear in terms of the benefit of water on -- the fluoridated water on cavities.

[20:50:05]

But after 1975, it's not as clear, and I think in large part, it's because you started to have fluoride in the toothpaste. And that started to make a significant impact overall on cavities. So, you know, I think it's still a little bit hard to say exactly what the impact would be of taking it out.

By the way, taking it out often means, in communities across the country, not putting it in. As I mentioned, in some places it occurs naturally, but what they're really talking about is not putting that fluoride in. Portland, Oregon, Anderson, you may know, does not fluoridate their water.

So there's already municipalities in this country that don't do it. It is a municipality issue, not a federal issue. So, you know, various communities decide for themselves.

COOPER: I also want to talk to you about your latest investigations, the weight loss and diabetes drugs. They're known as GLP-1s. You've spent the past year investigating them for your newest documentary. What surprised you?

GUPTA: Yes. Man, this was fascinating, I got to tell you. I mean, one thing that surprised me was just how popular they have become. I mean, these medications, you know, Ozempic, for example, comes from Novo Nordisk out of Denmark, outside of Copenhagen. That company now has a larger value than the entire country of Denmark.

I mean, that just gives you some sense of just how quickly these medications took off. But one of the things that was really interesting to me, Anderson, is when you think about obesity, thinking about it as a disease of the brain, the idea that for some people, when they eat, the hormones don't go to a part of the brain that tells them that they are full.

And as a result, even when they're eating, they're already thinking about their next meal. They get anxious if they think that there's not enough food around. So the idea of thinking of obesity increasingly as a brain disease, much in the way that we thought about depression, you know, several decades ago, we now -- it's clear that it's a brain disease.

We're sort of at that same stage now, I think, with obesity. And it's pretty fascinating how you treat it if you sort of approach it that way.

COOPER: Thanks so much, Sanjay. I look forward to the special, "Is Ozempic Right For You?" That's the name of the special. It airs Sunday, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, Pacific, right here on CNN.

Up next, former heavyweight champ Mike Tyson steps back into the boxing ring tonight at age 58. Details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:25]

COOPER: Tonight in Texas, the highly anticipated return of former world heavyweight champion Iron Mike Tyson to the boxing ring to take on Jake Paul. Mike Tyson is back fighting as a pro for the first time in almost two decades. This time, his opponent is a social media star turned boxer who's 31 years younger.

More now on the two men who are going to face off from Randi Kaye.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JAKE PAUL, AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL BOXER AND ACTOR: Ah, it's so cold. Oh, it's so cold. Oh, it's so cold.

RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That's Jake Paul bathing in a bowl of cereal, all part of what he calls the giant cereal bath. Just one of the many stunts he recorded on his way to becoming an internet sensation.

Paul started on the now defunct social platform known as Vine, then moved to YouTube.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on. Yoh, this is working.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's working. KAYE (voice-over): His antics caught on and he became one of the highest paid YouTube stars in the world. Today, he has more than 20 million followers on YouTube and 27.5 million on Instagram. Followers he affectionately calls Jay Paulers.

PAUL: Good morning, Jake Paulers.

Sweet.

KAYE (voice-over): By 2015, when he was a teenager, Paul had caught the attention of the Disney Channel, which hired Paul for a role in the series Bizaardvark, about a couple of 12-year-old best friends. Paul was one of the main characters, but that didn't stop him from continuing to make his YouTube videos.

Disney and Paul parted ways in 2017 after neighbors complained about his stunts and fires he'd set at his house. One neighbor told a CNN affiliate that living next to Paul was a living hell and a circus. After Disney, Paul continued his YouTube skits.

In this one, he pranked the TSA by trying to get a massive teddy bear through security.

PAUL: No one going to stop me.

KAYE (voice-over): Eventually, boxing caught his attention. In 2018, he had his first amateur fight. Then in 2020, he turned professional, defeating a fellow YouTuber in the first round. That same year, Paul beat retired professional basketball player Nate Robinson in the ring with a second round knockout.

PAUL: Hey, this is my house, like what?

KAYE (voice-over): In 2020, at the height of the coronavirus pandemic, Paul hosted a huge party at his home in Calabasas, California. The city's mayor said partygoers didn't follow social distancing guidelines. Paul had claimed that the pandemic was a hoax.

That same year, the FBI raided Paul's home after he'd been charged with criminal trespassing and unlawful assembly at an Arizona mall. Video showed him at the mall as it was being looted. Paul denied any involvement and the Scottsdale Arizona Police Department dismissed the charges against him.

Now 27, Paul has established himself as a boxer with a solid record. He's 10 and 1 with seven career knockouts. He lives in Puerto Rico, where he also trains. His fight against Mike Tyson, another chapter in the Jake Paul phenomenon.

PAUL: I'm here to make $40 million and knock out a legend.

KAYE (voice-over): Yes, you heard that right. Paul will be paid $40 million for his part. Tyson, who retired in 2005, will make half that. At their pre-fight weigh-in, a preview of what's to come.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, ladies and gentlemen. (END VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: Randi Kaye joins us now. Who's favorite to win?

KAYE (on-camera): Well, Anderson, Vegas is certainly betting on Jake Paul to win this. He has a 67 percent chance of beating Mike Tyson, but Mike Tyson has the advantage of experience. If you look at this stat that we found today, when Jake Paul was born in January, 1997, Mike Tyson was already a 30-year-old boxing champion. His record at the time was 45-2, and he had 39 knockouts by the time Jake Paul was even born, Anderson.

COOPER: Wow. I think I'm going to be watching.

Randi Kaye, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

The News Continues, The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.