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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
NYPD Believes Suspect In CEO Shooting Left NYC By Bus; NYPD Believes Suspect In CEO Shooting Left NYC By Bus; Judge Tosses Manslaughter Charge In Subway Chokehold Case. Aired: 8-9p ET
Aired December 06, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ABU MOHAMMED AL-GOLANI, HAYAT TAHRIR AL-SHAM LEADER (through translator): I didn't want to bring what happened in Iraq into Syria. That's why there were disagreements between us and ISIS.
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Al-Golani is already preparing for a post regime Syria, the revolution rises from the ashes and this time it seems its flames are consuming the house of Assad.
Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Aleppo, Syria.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: It's absolutely incredible that she was able to get that interview. Sit down with someone, at the US it's a $10 million bounty on his head and have that incredibly important interview. Jomana Karadsheh there.
Thanks so much for joining us, AC360 starts now.
[20:00:39]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, police say they have found a backpack in New York Central Park and a law enforcement source tells us investigators believe it belonged to the suspected CEO assassin, a man they now think has fled the city and that is a photo of it.
Also, clues to the killer's motives, the evidence so far, what the suspect did before and after the killing, and the picture it now paints for two expert profilers.
Plus, how amateur sleuths across the internet are trying to analyze this photo. Trying to do what the professionals still haven't and put a name to the face.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. There is a lot to get to, on day three of the manhunt for the execution style killer of UnitedHealthcare executive, Brian Thompson. The day ends with this key discovery, as well as a stunning admission from New York Police, they think their suspect is gone. A discovery first, take a look at the image obtained by ABC News. What investigators believe to be the suspect's backpack.
They are now doing forensic testing on it, including for DNA. It was found in a southern part of Central Park, which means closer to the crime scene where the killing took place than where the gunman actually exited the park. Not far from where the suspect entered, in fact, on an e-bike fleeing north.
Now, a law enforcement official telling us it was removed, the backpack was by an excavator along with the surrounding material dirt and other things that may have been around it and the no officers picked it up to try to preserve any possible clues, any possible DNA.
Now again, word of the discovery was preceded by the NYPD's admission that the man they first referred to as a person of interest, this man, who lowered his mask just long enough on this surveillance video to flirt with a woman at the hostel where he was staying, is now elsewhere.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT COMMISSIONER: We do have a person of interest in the case and we have released the photo yesterday. We would appreciate you getting that photo out to your audience because we also have reason to believe that the person in question has left New York City. So we want a wider audience to see the picture outside of New York City.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's New York Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch talking with CNN's Shimon Prokupecz. He joins us shortly with more from that conversation. Commissioner Tisch and chief of detectives Joseph Kenny was also part of that.
Now, again, this is who they now want people outside of New York to look out for, the man who they said came here by bus ten days before the killing and who they now say, also left by bus, not from the busy port authority terminal in midtown but one more than six miles farther uptown, next to the George Washington bridge. It's a much smaller bus depot known mostly to New Yorkers in that area in Upper Manhattan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH KENNY, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: We have video of him entering the Port Authority Bus Terminal. We don't have any video of him exiting, so we believe he may have gotten on a bus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Some investigators say that his journey there began on foot at the crime scene in Midtown Manhattan, then on e-bike into Central Park after his execution style slaying. He exited the park around 77th Street, which is 23 blocks a mile or so from where the murder took place.
He then made his way to 85th street, where police have this video of him on the e-bike, which you've probably seen before. Then officials say he walked up to 86th Street and grabbed a cab to the George Washington Bridge bus station, 90 blocks away in New York's Washington Heights and they believe left the city.
Now, we learned tonight now, that this is a potentially nationwide manhunt. The FBI is involved, as well as police in Atlanta, where the bus the suspect first arrived on originated. Don't know if he got on the bus in Atlanta or if it was at some later stop. On top of that, we also learned just moments ago that it was not two words written on two bullets, "delay" and "depose," that a third shell bore the word "deny."
A senior law enforcement official telling CNN that a medical examiner is testing some of those items for any DNA left on them and just before air time, we got this the Chief of Detectives Or Chief of Detectives Kenny, telling "The New York Times" that investigators are looking to the possibility that those shells may have used been used in what is known as a veterinary gun. This is a photo of it, a larger firearm used on farms and ranches.
Chief Kenny saying, "if an animal has to get put down the animal can be shot without the weapon causing a large noise that there's a suppressor on it. Again, New York's two top police officials spoke today with CNN's Shimon Prokupecz, who joins us now from the Upper West Side of Manhattan, where authorities believe the suspect caught that cab uptown to the bus station.
So the backpack that the NYPD found believed to be belonged to the gunman. What more do we know about how they found it? Where exactly was it? And what happens now?
[20:05:15]
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was during our interview with the police commissioner that we learned that they were actually back in Central Park doing a secondary search and it was during that secondary search at around 5:00 PM or so, that they found the backpack.
And then what they did as you said, Anderson, is once they located, the officers, located it, they brought in teams. They used an excavator so as to not disturb any of the contents, not to mess with anything that could be on there like DNA or other evidence and so then they removed it not to disturb anything inside.
They even took dirt from the ground with it, and now it's all being processed by lab technicians at the NYPD.
COOPER: So the -- I mean, not only would the contents inside perhaps hold some DNA, if the gun is actually inside the bag itself, there could even be DNA, I guess, on the shoulder straps, if he sweated onto the bag, he was carrying that around a lot.
PROKUPECZ: Right, there could be any kind of DNA perhaps on there, you know and also given the proximity of him to the victim, you know, you never know, Anderson. There could be blood on there. There could be other things. It's just very hard to know right now what other items could possibly be on the bag. And so, this is why they want to be so careful in removing it.
You know, they had spent some time searching for it days ago after this shooting. And now today, finally, the NYPD decided, let's go back.
And in our interview today with the NYPD, you know, we spoke at length about this investigation where it's at and what they are doing to try and locate the suspect. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PROKUPECZ: Where are we in the investigation? Where is this guy? Who is this guy?
TISCH: So, I'll start by saying we have every reason to believe that this was a targeted attack on an individual rather than a random act of violence on New York City streets. We do have a person of interest in the case, and we have released the photo yesterday.
We would appreciate you getting that photo out to your audience because we also have reason to believe that the person in question has left New York City. So, we want a wider audience to see the picture outside of New York City.
PROKUPECZ: Okay, so that's new information. What is that based on? Why do you believe that this person has left New York City?
KENNY: So, we have our perpetrator leaves the Hilton Hotel after the incident takes place. We have him getting on a bicycle and riding into Central Park. We then later pick him up on 77th Street exiting the park on Central Park West, still with the bicycle.
Eventually we have him on 86th Street and Columbus Avenue walking. He loses the bikes and then from there we have him in a taxi cab, and the taxi cab takes him up to 178th Street on Broadway, which, as we know, is a Port Authority Bus Center. Those buses are interstate buses. That's why we believe he left. He may have left New York City.
PROKUPECZ: Do you know what bus he got on? Where that bus was going?
KENNY: We're looking into that and were looking into that now. It's a very busy bus terminal. We want to make sure we have the right bus, but we're working through that right now it's all new information.
PROKUPECZ: I want to get back quickly a bit, because this is new information, I think it's important for New York City residents certainly to know that this individual is no longer -- you believe he is no longer here.
TISCH: We said we have reason to believe he is no longer in New York City.
PROKUPECZ: Right, and that, I assume, is based on video of --
KENNY: We have we have video of him entering the Port Authority Bus Terminal. We don't have any video of him exiting, so we believe he may have gotten on a bus.
PROKUPECZ: Okay, and we don't know what bus.
KENNY: No, as far as this time.
PROKUPECZ: I want to ask the photo from the hostel, you do believe that is the alleged suspect, correct?
KENNY: Yes.
PROKUPECZ: At the desk you do believe. Do you believe he's wearing different clothing than from what he wore during the commission of the murder?
KENNY: The appearance from when he's checking into the hostel at the desk, obviously, it's only a headshot. It appears that he's wearing the same hooded jacket that he was wearing the day of the incident.
PROKUPECZ: You've been at this a long time, how planned was this? The resources that were involved in this? What's your sense of this?
KENNY: My sense of this is that he definitely planned this out. He arrived in New York City, obviously, before the incident took place we have him on video prior to the incident for almost a half an hour, walking and wandering around the hotel area before he committed this act.
So, you know, do I think it was planned, yes I do, just in the mere fact that he knew what time the victim was going to be walking by, he knew what hotel this conference was going to be in.
TISCH: And he's been traveling and walking around the streets of New York City, largely in a mask with his face covered. We had to go through lots of video evidence to get that one money shot of him with the mask down.
[20:10:05]
PROKUPECZ: There's been a lot of speculation about the type of gun how he fired. Did it jam? Did it not jam? What's your sense on that now and what kind of a gun do you believe was used here?
KENNY: We really won't be able to confirm that so we seized that gun. But you know, from talking to people that are familiar with firearms, it appears that either there was a malfunction in the gun that he was clearing or it's a specific type of gun, that's a bolt action gun, that he was ejecting rounds as it was as he was reloading the gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PROKUPECZ: And, Anderson, one of the things that they told me that a lot of the investigators are doing, they're sitting in rooms watching video sometimes for hours and hours, just looking for the smallest of clip to try and locate where he may have been. Now, obviously, that they believe that he's out of New York City, the manhunt continues and it is going to take a lot more resources now to try and find him.
They're going through video at the bus depot in Upper Manhattan here to try and figure out what bus he got on. That's the big question. Now what bus did he get on there? Get on to get out of here. And where did he go?
COOPER: Shimon Prokupecz, appreciate it.
Thanks joining us now is former FBI agent Scott Curtis. Also, CNN national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem and CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst, John Miller.
John, obviously, a lot of new developments today. The idea, first of all, on this gun is interesting. The idea that it could be a veterinary or a gun that veterinarians use.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Yes, what Chief Kenny is talking about is after this assassination, you know the NYPD went to its firearms experts and said, what is this gun with this enormous silencer? And they examined it closely. It's a blurry shot, but they also looked at the way he was manipulating the weapon. And they said, you know, that looks like the B&T VP9.
Now, as you see it has this large extended silencer that that is screwed onto a threaded rather short barrel. But the way the gun works is you fire it with that trigger and then it doesn't automatically load the next round, you have to pull back on the rear of that slide and then let it go to eject one round and feed the next in.
If we look at that videotape taken during the actual shooting, you see him fire the gun, he's pulling back, firing the gun.
COOPER: So, it's not necessarily that it jammed per se?
MILLER: Right. So, that's the question. And here's the investigative conundrum, which is he's manipulating that gun that appears to be this, you know, kind of assassin's weapon. But they also found shell casings on the ground. But they also found live rounds.
So, the question is, was he familiar enough with the working of the weapon? Did he --
COOPER: It does look like in the second. I mean, there's if we rack it, he fires, he does it, he fires. I mean, he like there -- and then he fires and then he seems to like tap it two or three times.
MILLER: Right, so either he's undergoing a malfunction because he doesn't know how that weapon works or I mean, it's a blurry shot. It may be another weapon, even a ghost gun with a large suppressor or silencer.
COOPER: Scott, what do you make of it?
SCOTT CURTIS, FORMER FBI AGENT: Like you mentioned, either there was a malfunction where he was doing the drill, tap, rack, ready to cycle another round in there, or he got overzealous and he cycled two rounds there instead of just pulling it back and letting one round cycle into the chamber.
MILLER: But there's a weird cultural thing here. I mean, you wouldn't be committing a professional murder with a veterinary's gun, but this gun is based on the design of something called the Welrod.
And even going back to the British and the allied forces in World War Two in the 1940s, the Welrod was the assassin's weapon. When you fire it with that suppressor, you get a sound like a book hitting a table in a library.
COOPER: And the idea of why a vet would have that is so that it doesn't disturb, I guess, other animals.
MILLER: Exactly. It's practically silent. It's a significant round. It's a nine millimeter round. And it's meant for close up killing. It's meant for vets to kill an animal by shooting it in the head or somewhere, you know, that's going to be fatal. But it would work the exact same way on humans very effectively and extraordinarily quietly.
COOPER: Juliette, if he's going -- I mean, if he commits this murder, gets on the bike, goes through Central Park, gets up to, you know, into the 80s on the west side, hops in a cab, goes to the bus station, I assume those are all things he, if he came to this city, there's not a lot of people who aren't from this city would even know about that bus station up by the George Washington Bridge and I don't know if that's one of the things in the 10 days of reconnaissance that while he was in the city that he learned about.
But there can have been at that time in the morning that many busses going to places from that bus terminal by the George Washington Bridge. I don't know how busy that that terminal is, but it's got to be less busy than Port Authority.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right. And it is, but what we do know from this activity is he planned his exit and probably his exit from the city, almost as carefully as he planned the assassination. So, this is someone who's thinking of the full circle.
This is not a mass shooting. It's not a suicide, it is someone who wanted to get out and got thought through it and all those actions that you just said, not once has he stopped not once has he surfaced, not once do we see his face.
[20:15:32]
So, I have been writing and saying, you know, whatever we think this is, this is someone -- the police are doing one thing and they are bumping up against the anticipation he had that they would do exactly that. And he is he is playing-- it's sort of like a cat and mouse now, the surveillance has not been as fruitful as we wish. Even the face that we see is not, is apparently not showing a match. He kind of knows how to cover himself and so in some ways, the surveillance state which exists in this city, it's a dense city. It's got lots of cameras in some ways he was surveying it and knew how to get around it.
COOPER: Scott. I mean, how much does him leaving the city, if in fact, that's what he did? We know he got into the bus station. We don't know no video of him leaving. How much does that complicate the law enforcement manhunt? CURTIS: Well, now it's completely expanded tenfold here in where he could be and he's had how many days now advance on law enforcement there to, you know, work himself out of the New York City area.
Obviously, it was it would be easier to try to corral him within the city because there are all these choke points, right, with bridges and tunnels and the way out there through bus, train, plane. And, you know, I figured he was going to come in and go out by bus because there's less scrutiny there with not having to provide identification. No screening of bags there.
MILLER: If he is travelling with a weapon.
CURTIS: Right, if he's bringing the weapon in here, then he can do that. Obviously, a lot easier on bus and potentially on a train, but not on a plane, obviously.
COOPER: The -- you know, John we've been talking about how -- why wasn't the bag found in the last couple of days, Central Park, you know, if he was only in that park for 15 minutes, we know generally where he entered and where he exited there's a limited route you can travel.
Would -- I know they're being very careful and Shimon is reporting that you're using an excavator and they got the surrounding materials as well in case he spit or there's any DNA on the ground. But would somebody have immediately looked inside the bag? I mean, with a Tyvek suit and, you know, just to see is the gun there?
MILLER: Their instructions were, if you find it, freeze the location. Do not touch it. Wait for the detectives wait for the Crime Scene Unit and let them package this up. Because this is one of these things where even touching it or going through it with rubber gloves, you can smudge prints move DNA, contaminate it with your own material. When they go to trial, they want to be able to testify this was all done with perfect procedure in terms of trying to preserve that evidence and then extract that evidence.
COOPER: Yes, we know it's interesting, -- he wanted to escape, but he also wanted to leave behind bullets that have these words written on them.
KAYYEM: That's exactly right. He is the master of sort of wanting to be seen, but not wanting to be found. And this gets to, what we've all been talking about this sort of the creation of a cult around him, of him becoming a sort of folk hero for people who don't like their health insurance companies, I think it's disgusting.
But nonetheless, the fact that he seems to come from nowhere and go nowhere the NYPD is now at day three, almost day four, you know, and nowhere closer is part of what he's able to manipulate.
So, I think he is using technology, media these hints of the bullets, the coy smile while flirting, but not enough to know who he is. All of that is show someone who I think is sophisticated at least in in media and creating this aura around him. CURTIS: And something similar to Kaczynski and Rudolph there where they were trying to send a message for every act that they were doing.
COOPER: Scott Curtis, thank you. Juliette Kayyem, as well. John Miller is going to join again shortly, along with continuing CNN coverage throughout the evening.
Be sure to tune in at 11:00 for a special edition of "Laura Coates Live" "Manhunt: The Search For The CEO Killer". Again, that's 11:00 Eastern right here.
Next for us tonight, with Two specialists in criminal behavior and criminal profiling make of the evidence so far. And what a network of amateurs think they can do to identify and locate the suspect.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:23:38]
COOPER: A lot of breaking news in the search for the New York CEO assassin, including this. The discovery in Central Park, not far from the crime scene of what police believe is the suspect's backpack now undergoing extensive testing at a police lab.
Also, new tonight, NYPD Chief of Detective Joseph Kenny telling reporters the words "delay," "deny" and "depose" were scrawled on each of three bullets discovered at the scene.
Joining us now is Bryanna Fox. She is a professor of criminology at the University of South Florida and a former FBI special agent, also a forensic psychologist, Kris Mohandie.
Professor Fox, you said last night you think this person might be banking on the prospect he's going to get caught. It seems like he wants to escape. I mean, we were talking about this just in the last ten minutes or so. He wanted to escape the city. Clearly, he wanted a message to be sent with those bullets.
BRYANNA FOX, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA, PROFESSOR OF CRIMINOLOGY: Absolutely and I think that while there's certainly an urge to get away with the crime, I think he's banking on the fact that he probably won't forever. But at the same time, building up as much publicity as possible, the more eyes on this he can get, the better to him.
At least if he's going to get caught, there's something to be gained throughout all of this. Having more people know of his cause, more people aware of why he engaged in this shooting. I think all of that's going to start coming out as we start getting more information on his motive.
COOPER: Kris, with respect to the writing on the shell casings, what does that tell you? I mean, when a killer leaves any sort of message or indicator at a crime scene that might speak to their motive.
[20:25:13] KRIS MOHANDIE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I think it speaks exactly to his motive that he has a deep seated grievance may be very well be personal, as it relates to insurance company perhaps even this one. The fact that he said "delay," "deny" that you know, obviously relates to how many people experienced insurance companies when it comes to serious claims. And then the fact that he mentioned "depose" suggests that he may have been involved in litigation as he sought to pursue, you know, his rights in that system.
So, we're talking about a man with a grievance, and I believe it's a personal grievance. I believe he's going to have a connection by virtue of a family member or a loved one who may have been in his perception, is ground up in that system, maybe even died or experienced harm.
So, it's very important for this man to get his message out there in this dramatic fashion and to punish the person he's affixed blame to, which is the CEO of this company who he sees as a symbol of these oppressive practices that have resulted in harm to somebody that he loves.
So, I think that what we're going to find out about him is that that there is a connection, or at least an identification with that connection. But I think it actually is a personal connection that there was litigation. There's a lot of litigation that goes on with people in these companies and for many people, it's an option of last resort and then they're left with now what do I do when they've lost everything or they perceive that they've lost everything.
So, this is a man with an agenda, with a grievance and it was important to get that out there and to leave this behind. And my concern is, is he done? And is there anybody else that he may be wanting to continue this mission with?
And all I can say is I'm sure he's out there watching the news, that his best chances of being heard at this point is for himself to turn himself in so that, you know whatever it is that he needs to communicate can be communicated in a more pro-social way rather than this method.
COOPER: Professor Fox, do you believe, I mean, if he's seeking to build up publicity that he's monitoring coverage of this?
FOX: I do, and I think he's probably monitoring a lot of the social media coverage as well, where there's been a lot of discussion of things like motive, what the words that he put on the bullets may relate to even people. I hate to say it, but essentially cheering his perceived motivation on.
There is no good reason to ever engage in an act of violence like this, but I think there are a lot of people that see insurance companies as being unfair or denying their coverage without cause and I think that that's probably what he's trying to build up the support and get people to identify with him on.
I think that if he had just done this, let's say in Minnesota where the victim is from and it was left as an unsolved murder, his message would never get across to people.
So I think that even though it was so much more risky to do it in Midtown Manhattan, that to him was the best way to get this message out there and it is being talked about a lot. So I think in his mind, he's being successful and he really relishes in watching this.
COOPER: Yes. Kris Mohandie, Bryanna Fox, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.
Coming up, the race to identify the UnitedHealthcare CEO shooter, hardly the first time a manhunt has captivated the nation's attention. What can high profile investigations into the Boston marathon bombing, for instance, or the DC sniper, tell us about how this current search might end.
We will have that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:33:02]
COOPER: We're bringing you the latest developments at the search to identify the gunman who fatally shot the CEO of United Healthcare Wednesday morning in New York. A law enforcement official telling CNN tonight that the NYPD found what could be the shooter's backpack in Central Park. Investigators have reason to believe the suspect has left the city. He was last spotted entering a Port Authority bus station in Upper Manhattan.
It's a massive manhunt, obviously, one former top cop on the program last night estimated as many as a thousand police personnel could be working on a case like this. It's also not the first time a manhunt has captured the nation's attention. Brian Todd has that. g (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An intense manhunt consuming the public's attention, putting increasing pressure on the police. A script with many similar dramatic chapters in American history.
JEFFERY IAN ROSS, CRIMINOLOGIST AT THE UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE: These kinds of investigations have a kind of a snowball effect in terms of people being interested in it.
TODD (voice-over): April 15th, 2013, two pressure cooker bombs explode near the finish line of the Boston Marathon, killing three people and injuring hundreds. A terrified city is placed on lockdown. The perpetrators slip away, but --
ROSS: The perpetrators were identified very early on due to lots of cameras that were present.
TODD (voice-over): A relentless manhunt was underway for two brothers, Tamerlan and Jahar Tsarnaev. Later that week, after they killed an MIT police officer and committed a carjacking, Tamerlan Tsarnaev was killed in a violent confrontation with police. His younger brother remained on the loose.
COL. TIMOTHY ALBEN, MASSACHUSETTS STATE POLICE SPOKESMAN: My message to the suspect is to give himself up, to stop any further violence towards anyone.
TODD (voice-over): A day after his brother was killed, a wounded Jahar Tsarnaev was captured, hiding inside a boat in a backyard in Watertown, Massachusetts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a clear view of a boat that seems to be shrink wrapped in some plastic, where they are focusing their lights on it. We can hear officers yelling.
TODD (voice-over): October 2002, the D.C., Maryland and Virginia area is paralyzed by a series of random sniper attacks. Over three weeks, 10 people are killed in places like gas stations, shopping centers, and even a 13-year-old boy was shot and wounded as he was dropped off at his middle school. The shooters left a taunting note on a tarot card.
[20:35:15]
NEIL FRANKLIN, FORMER MD STATE POLICE COMMANDER: People were getting shot at gas stations. They were just anywhere you would go out in public, everyone was on edge, because, am I the next victim?
TODD (voice-over): In late October, John Allen Muhammad and his 17- year-old criminal protege, Lee Boyd Malvo, were apprehended at a rest stop in Maryland. Muhammad was later executed. Malvo remains in prison.
Last year, after he vertically crab walked to a roof and then got away, prison escapee Danilo Cavalcante eluded police for nearly two weeks before his capture in rural Pennsylvania. Two other manhunts for two notorious killers each played out over a period of years.
After he planted a deadly bomb in Atlanta's Centennial Park during the 1996 Olympics, and after police initially suspected the wrong man, Eric Rudolph planted bombs at abortion clinics in Georgia and Alabama. He wasn't captured until 2003.
Over the course of 17 years, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, mailed or hand-delivered bombs across the U.S. that killed three people. He was captured in 1996, after his brother tipped off law enforcement. Both Rudolph and Kaczynski had eluded capture by hiding and surviving in the wilderness.
FRANKLIN: They can find ways to live off of the land, especially if they're experienced, right? Rudolph was experienced.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (on camera): Some notorious manhunts have been resolved when the relatives of suspects came forward to give law enforcement crucial information that led to their capture, as what occurred in the Unabomber case. Analysts say that could happen with this current New York manhunt, but that could depend on whether this suspect might have been trying to avenge a relative who may have had a bad experience with UnitedHealthcare. Anderson.
COOPER: Brian Todd, thanks so much.
John Miller is back with us. You know, when you look at the photo, you know, the one photo where he's smiling in that flirtatious moment apparently he had with the person in the hostel, you do feel like anybody who really knows this person would look at that and be able to say, oh, yes, that's, you know, the person I know.
MILLER: Yes, that's Bob or --
COOPER: Right, yeah.
MILLER: -- you know, whoever. So that's what they're counting on. And that's worked before. But let's take a look at two quick examples. One Brian Todd just gave us, the Tsarnaev brothers, the Boston Marathon bombers.
You know, he was in a college dorm with some friends. He was getting high. This was after the bomber. After the bombing, he left. They saw him on T.V. saying, who knows this person?
And instead of picking up the phone and calling police and saying, that guy just left here, they started destroying evidence and getting rid of his computers and things like that because they were going to protect their friend. So, some people will call in. Some people won't.
Remember the guy, Frank James, who shot 10 people on the New York City subway two and a half years ago? People didn't call in from Milwaukee or Philadelphia saying, that's Frank James. People called in and tweeted on social media pictures of him walking around the street saying, I don't know who he is, but he just walked by me. So, people react in different ways.
I was in the police department and from Shimon Prokupecz got the tweet saying, are you guys seeing this? And we sent units into Canal Street and within a couple of hours had him at the McDonald's. But, you know, what they're counting on is solid citizens saying, I know this guy and I'm going to call the number.
COOPER: For the fact that he -- whether -- I mean, it seems like he's left the city. He went to the Port Authority in Upper New York. Don't know if he actually did leave or went on what bus. I mean, at this point, any sign that he may have had help or assistance or somebody waiting for him somewhere else that would help him kind of escape further? He was talking on the phone shortly before the shooting.
MILLER: Great question. You know, how did he get an e-bike? You know, it's not a rented city bike. You know, where did he get the resources? But they are literally building a movie, an end to end movie, you know, in chronological order with these video recovery teams that are, that are flooding the streets to see his every move.
And so far, they haven't seen him interact with anyone else. At least when I last checked with how that was going. They see him in a taxi, he goes to McDonald's, he's at the Hilton Hotel doing reconnaissance, but he's not talking to anybody else.
Now think about this. The one piece of video we keep playing is him walking down the street with that phone to his ear just before the murder. Who's he talking to there? Someone here or someone far away?
COOPER: And when a suspect leaves the city, I mean, we had a guest on, a former chief at the NYPD who said, you know, could be as like a thousand officers working on this. Does that suddenly number drop because he's left the city?
MILLER: No, because they're still doing the other stuff. I mean, the largest number of officers, every cop in New York has a smartphone in his picture they're looking from while they're doing everything else. The largest number of those officers are the people running down the tips that are coming into the command center and doing those video canvases, which is creating that literal, that literal image timeline of his time here. But what they are doing is, the NYPD has something called the Sentry Program. It enlists police departments in all the other cities as part of a cooperative where they exchange intelligence and information on cases.
[20:40:29]
They are probably going back through what they think those bus routes may be, and having those departments go to those locations and times and with those videos.
COOPER: Because there can't be that many buses that left --
MILLER: Right.
COOPER: in a reasonable amount of time that morning.
MILLER: It's a limited universe.
COOPER: Yes. John Miller, thank you.
Coming up next, more on the social media aspect we mentioned a moment ago. Internet sleuths, amateurs certainly, are working to piece together clues ahead of the police. The question is whether amateur detectives might produce a helpful lead or create more online noise for investigators to sift through. We'll take a look.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:07]
COOPER: The brazen murder of United -- CEO Brian Thompson has spawned countless theories on social media where amateur detectives are attempting to piece together clues and possibly identify the gunman before police do. While well-intentioned, tips from internet sleuths can sometimes complicate an investigation. Randi Kaye takes a look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RILEY WALZ, AMATEUR SLEUTH: I checked the docks around the hotel where the shooting happened.
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Riley Walz is an engineer and an amateur sleuth who lit up the internet when he posted online that he thought the assassin who killed the UnitedHealthcare CEO in New York City escaped the crime scene on a city bike.
WALZ: That was the only bike that left the area around the hotel and headed northbound.
KAYE (voice-over): Walz shared the results of his sleuthing on social media and with the New York Police Department. On X, he posted that the bike left the dock near the scene at 6:44 a.m. He also posted his data, writing, can't believe my little data nerd experiment actually amounted to something in the real world. Turns out Walz had it wrong.
Police later confirmed the assassin escaped on an e-bike, not a city bike. Then came the backlash.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So apparently some little snitch street journalists tracked the assassin's city bike and posted it on the internet.
WALZ: Lots of people online are calling me some kind of snitch, even though I ended up the information I gave wasn't even correct.
KAYE (voice-over): Amateur sleuthing is a way of crowdsourcing detective work without the professionals. And in the shooting of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, like so many others, theories are plentiful online.
In one post in the subreddit about guns, users speculated about the gun Brian Thompson's assassin fired, writing the shape, size and hand position are all consistent with a B&T VP9 pistol. Other amateur detectives suggested the shooter's bag was a peak design everyday backpack 30 L camera bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to give you my theory on Brian Thompson's murder based on the information that we have.
KAYE (voice-over): On TikTok, endless theories on the case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, theory number one is that, OK, so the bullets left behind had like a message on them.
KAYE (voice-over): Some sleuthers even casting doubt on the NYPD's investigation. This one noting the images of the alleged assassins.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you paid close attention to these pictures, it's two different people that they put out.
DANIEL BRUNNER, RETIRED FBI AGENT: That's the good and the bad of the internet these days.
KAYE (voice-over): Dan Brunner is a retired FBI agent.
BRUNNER: The swell of what the people think, the swell with the people say they see that can definitely influence how it's portrayed in the media and send law enforcement entities in the wrong direction. Like after the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing, when online sleuthers on Reddit and 4chan combed through photos and videos of the aftermath and wrongly identified a bunch of people as the bombers. Some media published their photos, leaving those innocent people fearing for their lives. Still, Brunner says internet sleuthing can do a lot of good.
BRUNNER: People using the crowdsource resources from using their computers to figure out, look at the clues and maybe find something that law enforcement hasn't considered or isn't looking at. All these people, we multiply law enforcement's capabilities by millions.
KAYE (voice-over): That may be true, but some are simply fed up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I want to say right now is that this is not the time for internet sleuths to do their thing. You all can take a break.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE (on camera): And Anderson, with all these sleuthers and all their tips coming in, what it does is just create a lot of noise for the investigators. And then they have to break through that noise. And I'm told by the experts who we spoke with today that what happens is because these people are just amateurs, they bring to them a lot of false tips, a lot of low quality, poor quality tips. And then the good tips, the quality tips could get pushed aside. So what this does is it really just gums up the system.
And then the good tips do get pushed aside or possibly buried. But Anderson, I will say that even though these amateur sleuthers do get a bad rap, we know what happened in the Gabby Petito case when she disappeared three years ago with her fiance, Brian Laundrie. In that case, the amateur sleuthers helped investigators pinpoint that national forest in Wyoming where her body ended up being discovered. So in that case, they really did some pretty good detective work, even though they were amateurs, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. Randi Kaye, thanks so much.
Coming up next, more breaking news on the suspect's identity. Also a surprising decision by the judge in the high profile trial of a Marine veteran charged in the chokehold death of another man on a New York City subway.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:53:59]
COOPER: More breaking news just in. Investigators looking for the New York CEO assassin are homing in on his identity. I want to go back to CNN's Shimon Prokupecz for the latest. What are you hearing? PROKUPECZ: Yes, that's right, Anderson. So, what we're learning is it's both my colleague, our justice correspondent, Evan Perez and myself, is that investigators have been homing in on an individual, someone they believe they are trying to identify in connection with this investigation.
Now, they don't have enough information certainly to publicly identify this individual, but it's certainly there's enough information and there is things that they have found where they are very curious about this person and they want to learn more about this person. And so, without publicly identifying him at this point, they are continuing to try and gather more information on this individual. But it certainly suggests that they are progressing in this investigation as they continue to both look for this individual and try to identify him, Anderson.
[20:55:00]
COOPER: All right, Shimon, thanks very much.
We'll bring back -- we'll cover this in a moment, anything develops. We do want to quickly turn though to a trial that's been going on in New York, the already polarizing trial of a former Marine in charge in the chokehold death of a subway performer, Jordan Neely, last year.
After defendant Daniel Penny's jury told the judge they had deadlocked twice on the more serious of the two charges, manslaughter and the second degree, the judge state granted prosecutor's request to dismiss it, which leaves a lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide. That means jurors starting Monday can deliberate over a charge with a maximum penalty of four years versus 15 years.
Joined now by retired judge George Grasso, who was at the trial today and all this week and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson.
Judge Grasso, I know you feel strongly about this case, that this is a miscarriage of justice going on.
GEORGE GRASSO, RETIRED NYC CRIMINAL COURT, JUDGE: I do.
COOPER: That this was a Marine veteran who stood up and was trying to help people on this train. What's it been like at the trial? What do you think is going to happen?
GRASSO: Well, it's been quite a week and I do believe that. I mean, what's very unusual about this case and in terms of cases I'm aware from my 30 years with the police department and almost 13 years as a judge is both sides. The defense, obviously, and the district attorney agree that Daniel Penny was a good man acting selflessly for the right reasons to protect others in that subway car.
COOPER: The man who died was, you know, violent or threatening people, was scaring people.
GRASSO: Well, there's evidence that that he was basically I'm ready to die today and I'm ready to kill today. Now, Daniel Penny, we can say he would not have been the one who would have been directly threatened. There were older people, there were one woman -- young woman who testified was basically crying and had her head down and never experienced anything remotely like that. So he put himself in between Jordan Neely and innocent people on the subway and he may very well have had a knife or a gun or something like that. The problem that Penny had is once he decided to involve himself, it's kind of like in for a penny in for a pound.
Once he grabbed the guy, then he doesn't know if the guy's going to pull out a gun or a knife or something like that. So it's like when you look at the video that was entered in evidence, you know, one minute, good guy. Neely is still violently struggling. Second minute, good guy. Third minute, fourth minute, well, maybe not so good.
By fifth minute, we're going to prosecute this guy for manslaughter in the second degree and maybe take his life away, maybe send him to jail for 10 to 15, five to 15 years. So I think that's the type of thing the jury is really struggling with right now and they should be struggling with right now. And that's why we ended up today with the jury not being able to reach the verdict for manslaughter in the second degree. And then the D.A. wanted to keep the case alive. So then they agreed to dismiss manslaughter so they could get to criminally negligent homicide, which is going to pick up on Monday.
COOPER: I know you think these charges should never have been brought by the D.A. Joey, what do you think of the case so far?
JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL ATTORNEY: So I'm not surprised at all, Anderson, with respect to the jury not being able to reach a conclusion. And in my view, I think there's two issues that they really hung up on. The first thing is I think there's one or more or a faction who say this is self-defense and he was completely justified, that is the defendant in this case, engaging in the action that he engaged in to protect others. And I don't care what you tell me. If you charge with murder, he was justified.
If it's manslaughter, justified. Criminally negligent homicide, justified.
I think the second issue is there was a lot said in terms of the expert testimony. One of the things you have to prove, as a judge will tell you, is causation. What caused the death? And there was the medical expert from the city who indicated it was a chokehold. And then, of course, the defense said, no, it wasn't.
It was the K2, synthetic marijuana, in addition to schizophrenia, in addition to other issues, sickle cell, right, the struggle itself. And as a result of that, there's no causation. So I think there's two built-in problems.
And then the second thing I'll say quickly is that, listen, even though they're now deliberating on the criminally negligent homicide, lesser standard because it involves negligence, carelessness, right? The bottom line is I think you're going to still have that faction. And I think we're going to see a similar result to what we saw today, just with respect to a jury being very trouble in making a decision. COOPER: You know, Judge Grasso, as a New Yorker, it is, you know, you're on the subway and you're on one of those cars. And if there's somebody on the car who is, you know, screaming and threatening, it's a scary thing. And as a New Yorker, you know, you want citizens to stand up and help other New Yorkers. This obviously, no matter what happens, has already sent kind of a chilling message.
GRASSO: I was on the subway on the six train about a week after the Penny incident. And I was on -- there was a guy who kind of fit the description of Penny, but not Penny, Neely, about 10 years older, 15 years older, who's talking about stabbing people's effing eyes out. and I -- he came --
COOPER: He was talking about that on the train?
GRASSO: On the train. And I stayed on the car when I could have gotten off because there were all the women that was around about noon or something like that. And I was watching the guy out of the side of my eye and having to think, if he acted and I was going to act, that I would have been in his situation, but I didn't. He followed me on the escalator and got into my face and threatened to do that to me, but ran off. But that's what we're all dealing with.
And that was my personal experience a week after this case.
COOPER: Judge Grasso, great to have you here.
GRASSO: Thank you.
COOPER: Joey Jackson as well.
Just a reminder, be sure to tune in to Laura Coates at 11:00 for "Manhunt, The Search for the CEO Killer." News continues. "The Source With Kaitlan Collins" starts right now.
