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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Two Dead, Six Injured in Wisconsin School Shooting; Interview with Rep. Mark Pocan (R-WI); Judge Rules Trump Does Not Have Immunity in Hush Money Conviction; Judge Rules Trump Does Not Have Immunity In Hush Money Conviction; FBI Pleads With Public Not To Shoot Down Drones; Trump Meets With TikTok CEO At Mar-a-Lago As Company Asks Supreme Court To Intervene In Fight Over Federal Ban; Stowaway On Delta Flight To Paris Busted Trying To Get Into Canada. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 16, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: ... and the policies behind food safety standards are resonating with Democrats.
CORY BOOKER (D-NJ) SENATOR: Is RFK right about a lot of the challenges? Yes, I've heard him say a lot of things that are absolutely right.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: Donald Trump said during the campaign that he would let Kennedy go wild on health care policy, and that's not helping him now with senators who are afraid, Erin, that he might do just that.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Yes, absolutely. All right, Tom Foreman, thank you so very much and of course, thanks so much to all of you for joining us. See you tomorrow, AC360 starts now.
[20:00:32]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: All right, tonight on 360. A school called Abundant Life sees gunfire and death. How the country's latest school shooting happened, and how this one differs from most.
Also tonight, breaking news in the case that made Donald Trump a convicted, but not yet sentenced felon. A new ruling from the judge and a blow to the defense.
Plus, the military takes new steps against drones as the president- elect weighs in by fueling conspiracy concerns. And later, Kara Swisher is here with her take on the billionaires and heads of trillion dollar companies lining up to pay tribute to what critics say, just simply pay off Donald J. Trump.
All right, John Berman here, in for Anderson and we do begin tonight with a place in our hearts for the students, staff and parents of the Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin. They are right now going through what people at 82 other schools and college campuses have gone through just this year. And yes, you heard that correctly. According to a CNN analysis of the data from the Gun Violence Archive, Education Week and the organization, Every Town For Gun Safety.
As of today, there have been 83 school and college shootings in 2024, which have taken 38 lives, injured at least 115 others, and traumatized so many more.
Tonight, the White House is expressing deep condolences to the families of the teacher and teenage student who were killed and six others hurt, two of them badly by a student with a pistol, who was also dead.
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ADM. JOHN KIRBY (RET), COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Just horrific news and news that no family, no parent, no sibling, no son or daughter ever wants to hear, so, just, just terrible.
We will continue to stay focused on the community there in Madison, and we'll obviously offer whatever help may be required or needed of local and state authorities.
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BERMAN: A law enforcement source tells CNN the 17-year-old student who opened fire was a young woman, which is relatively uncommon in school shootings. But as much as the rest may fit a familiar pattern, each story of each life lost in each school, in every city, is unique, and so is every moment in Madison, every heartbeat, every tear ever since shots rang out this morning.
Tonight, Madison's chief of police said all surviving students have been reunited with their families, and the first students have begun talking publicly about what they experienced.
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MALE STUDENT: I was in English and then they said it was a lockdown drill, so we went to the side of the building and then we went to the church. After they got us, and then we just waited. They gave us some food and then waited for them to transport us to the hospital and get our moms and dads.
REPORTER: Did you hear gunshots?
MALE STUDENT: Yes, I heard.
REPORTER: Tell me what happened.
MALE STUDENT: We heard them and then some people started crying. And then we just waited till the police came. And then they escorted us out to the church.
REPORTER: How many gunshots did you hear? MALE STUDENT: I heard two.
REPORTER: And what were you thinking? What are you thinking now?
MALE STUDENT: I was scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Understandably so. A lot to get to tonight. CNN's Veronica Miracle starts us off.
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JOHN DIAZ DE LEON, LIVES NEARBY AND ATTENDS ADJACENT CHURCH: I would have never thought it would have happened in Madison, let alone at our school here, ALCS. So, it's shocking, it's a strange world we live in.
VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): At a small Christian school in Madison, Wisconsin, just before Christmas break, a horrific tragedy.
BETHANY HIGHMAN, PARENT OF STUDENT AT ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: Something that you pray. I mean, I pray with my kids every morning that this won't happen.
MIRACLE (voice over): It was just before lunchtime when, according to law enforcement sources, a 17-year-old female student opened fire at Abundant Life Christian School. It's a K-through-12 program with just a few hundred children and about 50 staff. Police, fire and medics were dispatched to the school at 10:57 AM, local time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got a call coming in at Abundant Life Christian Church, 4901 for engine five and medic five for a shooter, just advising someone was shot.
MIRACLE (voice over): Police say that call came from someone inside the school and officers entered the school three minutes later at 11:00 AM.
CHIEF SHON BARNES, MADISON WISCONSIN POLICE: The shooter was dead, upon our arrival, Police department arrival, and no officers fired their weapons.
MIRACLE (voice over): Less than ten minutes from when police responded to the scene, radio traffic the Madison Fire Department said the shooter was down and called for medics to enter the scene.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: PD is saying everybody can come in, all EMS can come in, shooter is down.
MIRACLE (voice over): Medics were at the facility just three miles from the school at the time of the shooting, when officials say a training day turned into a real life scenario. CHIEF CHRIS CARBON, MADISON FIRE: Within a course of 15 minutes from the first transport, all the patients were on their way to the hospital.
MIRACLE (voice over): The injuries were contained to one area of the school. That's according to the Madison Police chief. Sources tell CNN the shooter used a nine-millimeter pistol.
BARNES: When officers arrived on the on the scene, they immediately go in, which we did in this case, stop the threat, stop the killing find the killer. That's how we train them. That's exactly what we did today.
MIRACLE (voice over): Police have been in contact with the shooter's family, and they are cooperating.
BARNES: It's difficult, as today is. That's still someone's child that's gone. That's still someone that has to deal with what happened today. And so, we want to make sure that we can ensure as much cooperation as we can.
MIRACLE (voice over): The shooting at Abundant Life Christian School marks the 83rd school shooting of 2024, the most of any year since CNN began tracking school shootings. It's the third recent shooting at a Christian school.
BARNES: I think we can all agree that enough is enough and we have to come together to do everything we can to support our students, to prevent press conferences like these from happening again and again and again.
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BERMAN: And that was Veronica Miracle reporting.
CNN's Whitney Wild is in Madison for us tonight. Whitney, what more are you learning from law enforcement officials about the shooting and the shooter?
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, this is breaking news we have from CNN's Shimon Prokupecz. What he is learning from a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation is that the shooter at the Abundant Life Christian School planned this attack in advance. This is information that was gathered by investigators, and it suggests that the shooter had been dealing with problems and expressed some of those issues in writing that is now being reviewed by law enforcement.
As you mentioned, the parents of the shooter are cooperating. That is absolutely critical, John, as they try to work through the motive here. At this point, just to reiterate what you said at the beginning of the show, this was a 17-year-old student, a female, but the police chief declining to identify that shooter at this point -- John.
BERMAN: Any update on the injured victims and their condition? WILD: Yes, we do have good news to share. Two people who were injured have since been released. There are, sadly, two students who remain in critical condition. In total, there were at least six people injured in this shooting, John. That includes teachers and students as well. And sadly, as we know, one teacher and one student died -- John.
BERMAN: All right, Whitney Wild, we'll let you get back to reporting. Please keep us posted on any updates.
Perspective now, from the aforementioned CNN senior crime and justice correspondent Shimon Prokupecz, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller, and Christopher Vanghele, chief of police in Plainville, Connecticut, and Sandy Hook first responder during his time with the Newtown, Connecticut Police Department.
Shimon, since Whitney brought up your reporting, which you just broke you just sat down. Bring us up to speed on what you just learned.
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So, the law enforcement officials there, the detectives have been going through as much information as they possibly could, gathering, social media, gathering other information. And they have some information now, in part, that this was planned some time in advance, but they have also come across writings that they are now trying to link to the shooter that could spell motive, that could give some information to investigators. They're going through all of that.
One of the things that is happening and what is delaying some of this information from coming out, is that the parents of the alleged shooter are being interviewed by detectives, and so they're still in the process, literally 30, 40 minutes ago, when police last held a press conference, the parents were still being interviewed by investigators. They're cooperating. But obviously for investigators, they want to know what more do the parents know? And the other thing I want to note is that during the press conference, the Wisconsin DOJ official who spoke indicated that there was some information that people knew perhaps what was going on in this person's life and that they never reported it.
And so they stressed, if you hear of any information, if you know of something that's going on in someone's life that could potentially lead to a school shooting, please report it.
BERMAN: We will get to that in a second, because I do think that is interesting. That was an interesting breadcrumb they left right there. John Miller, a female shooter. How unusual is that?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: That's pretty unusual. I mean, if you take not just the school shootings, but the mass shootings out of 141, you have six female shooters. But, you know, we do remember the Audrey Hale case at the Nashville Christian School in 2023, which was, you know, another unusual marker, but also another Christian school.
[20:10:04] BERMAN: And to Shimon's point, if you see any signs of these things, you should speak up. There's the discussion about guns, which is an important discussion to have but beyond that, law enforcement isn't waiting for these discussions, right? They're also trying to figure out ways to maybe prevent school shootings before they happen. What have they come up with after so many examples?
MILLER: So, the FBI's behavioral analysis unit has been working on this, studying it first and then from the studies, gleaning, okay, what comes out of all of this data that would be helpful. And the main point here is and were seeing signs of it again today is, we have this narrative that the that a child or a person was having problems at school or at work and they just snapped and they came in and shot everybody that day.
Not how it works, not how it works. People don't snap. These things build and they plan, they prepare, they arm, they go through many steps, and they also have many tells, if you will.
And one of the things the FBI has been working on is literally a campaign to get this out. And they say some of the indicators that you'll see in people and this will be detectable by friends, classmates, a guidance counselor, a boyfriend or girlfriend, a brother or sister, parents significantly reduced ability to cope with stress or setbacks, expressions of hopelessness, helplessness, lack of nonviolent options for solving problems, persistent fantasies about violence.
Now, that's a core group. But there's 15 categories that they say, and you may not see all of them. You may see a cluster of them. And what they're saying is, this is the time when you go, you go to someone you trust, and all of this is available, by the way, on wwwfbi.gov/prevent. And there is tools and brochures and lists. But this is going to be how we're going to prevent it.
BERMAN: And it's a worthy time to spend. If they're going to train kids in school for how to react to this, we should all take the time to look at this type of thing so we can all do our part.
Chief Vanghele, you know, you were a first responder at sandy hook, which I'm reminded was 12 years ago, almost exactly two days, two days past that at this point. So, what's going through your mind tonight? And what do you make so far of what we know about this shooting in Madison?
CHIEF CHRISTOPHE VANGHELE, PLAINVILLE, CONNECTICUT POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes, thanks for having me. Well you and I know it's going to be a very long road for them. I know they're going to lean on each other very heavily, and I know that we're going to get through it with the love of their families and with the people in that community. It was two days ago, the anniversary of Sandy Hook. And, you know, I spent it at home just quietly. And of course, I thought about it.
And to have this happen, you know, two days after that, it really brings back all of those memories, you know, when you watch the coverage on the news and you see the police cars and the ambulances coming and, you know, this poor officers, what they went through, the poor families, what they're going through, it brings it all back.
And I want to give credit to the Madison Police chief. He's doing a fantastic job in terms of putting out information. The Madison Police Department did a very fantastic job. The fact that they trained, they got in there quickly. That's step one.
As far as the motive they're investigating, the motive is important. Of course, people want to know what would cause a person to do this. In my estimation, though, the motive doesn't really do much to justify anything. How do you justify what you did? It doesn't mean much to the parents. You know, if every kid that had a bad time at school or had a breakup or had an issue was the school shooter, we'd have a school shooting every single day, and that's just not the case.
And so, what they have to do right now are two things. One, they have to see if this person had an accomplice. Was there anything else that they were going to do or anybody that helped them? The second thing they need to see if there was any, precipitating news or events. Was there a tell, as somebody had mentioned before, did anybody know that this was going to happen? Did this person post anything on social media indicating that they might take this action? How did they get the gun? Those are the types of questions that need to be answered.
BERMAN: Yes. I mean, in your case, 12 years ago, there were multiple crime scenes. And of course, the evidence spanned an entire town and an entire region.
Shimon, you covered Uvalde, another school shooting, another tragedy where the police response has been heavily criticized and just was not good. How did this differ from that?
PROKUPECZ: Oh, much different. In fact, the chief talked about it. Someone had asked him at the press conference. You go towards the dying, you go towards the killing. You go towards the sound of gunfire. And that's exactly what they did here. And I -- for the chief, I know this chief, and I've done some stories with him. You know, this is something that they take very seriously, and they've done a lot of training on, just recently, two weeks ago, they've had training.
[20:15:11]
The tactical medics were just in training today when this happened. And they had to respond to this real life. He was saying that while they were in training, they have to respond to this.
And many of the people in the law enforcement community looked at what happened in Uvalde and said, never on my watch. And you can hear that in the chief's voice today, said, we got there. We got in as quickly as we could. They were on scene within three minutes, and the chief of the fire department there said they had everyone transported to the hospital within 15 minutes.
BERMAN: It really was a remarkable response. And the school had just undergone training as well. Everyone was trained for this. John, a lot of these mass shootings involve assault rifles, you know, AR-15s or the like. This one was a handgun. How does that have an impact on the casualties, but also the investigation?
MILLER: You know, handguns are very common in these as well. If you look at the most deadly, you know, mass school shooting was Virginia Tech, and that was an individual who had two Glock pistols and multiple magazines. Because the dynamic here is this is close quarters battle, except it's a one sided battle. Only the shooter has the gun.
And when you look at your typical nine millimeters semi-automatic, that's between 10 and 14 rounds in a magazine, you drop one magazine and you can get 10 or 14 more. And when you look at the numbers here, except for the round that the shooter saved for herself, nine people shot three dead or injured. It looks like she expended a lot of those rounds before turning the gun away.
BERMAN: All right, John Miller, Shimon Prokupecz, Chief Vanghele, thank you all so much for contributing to this discussion that I regret that we have to have.
Joining us now is Wisconsin Congressman Mark Pocan, who represents Madison.
Congressman, thank you so much for being with us. I am so sorry for what your community is going through. What went through your mind when you heard about the tragedy for your constituents?
REP. MARK POCAN (R-WI): Well, thank you for that. And, you know, 12 years ago, the officer from Sandy Hook, I was in freshman training when that shooting happened and one of my fellow freshmen, Elizabeth Esty, was in the training and had to leave and start dealing with some of the problems even before she was elected to Congress.
Look, we just have too many of these. This is a uniquely United States problem, other countries don't have this type of mass shootings. I think it's been 480 mass shootings this year alone, over 80 in schools. That's completely unacceptable. And until we start saying that is completely unacceptable, were not going to deal with the root problem.
So, you know, this has happened over and over in Congress. We have moments of silence. We have no moments of action. The catch phrase is, in prayers. And I know that's comforting to family and community, but it doesn't stop what's happening over and over as a uniquely United States' problem. We need to deal with guns. We need to stand up to gun manufacturers and the Washington gun lobby. And until we do that, we're going to continue to have video showing just like this.
BERMAN: What more can you tell us about the Abundant Life Christian School community and how students, faculty and families are doing tonight?
POCAN: Yes, So I've been in Washington all day and my staff have been in contact with authorities. They have about 400 students, a little under 400 students K-12. And this is not something you expect, right? And when it happens, obviously for the entire community, this is something pretty devastating. And its unique, right. A female shooter. Right. That doesn't happen all the time either.
But the fact that its yet another school shooting, whether it's in Madison in my district or someone else's district, we have to start saying that this is not usual, that we shouldn't be number one in the category of mass shootings or school shootings on the entire planet.
And, you know, it's really sad. And I'm going to call a few folks out, maybe not directly by name, but we had some media that tomorrow wanted to talk to us about this, and they canceled because they said, oh, it got downgraded from five deaths to two. It doesn't matter. Seven more people were injured, three people were dead with the shooter counted.
This shouldn't happen in a school. You drop your kid off, you should know that they're safe and sound, and you shouldn't have to worry about this. And until we as a society, not just government, state and federal government as a society, decide it's a problem, we're going to keep having things like this happen that don't have to happen.
BERMAN: What questions do you still have to be answered about this case? I know you've been dealing with your staff and on the phone all day here.
POCAN: Well I think you're often were wondering why did it happen, you know, how did someone get access to a gun and there's plenty of legislation out there that, you know, I think we can do that has 85 and 90 percent support to make it tighter for people to get access to guns.
But at the end of the day, we've got to care about this as a problem. You can't just again be number one on the planet for school shootings, for mass shootings, and not see that as a problem. No other country gets close to us when it comes to this.
And, you know, for me, I just want to know why we don't care more, why media calls and says, oh, it's only two dead. We've got a real problem in this country, and we're not even close to accepting it.
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BERMAN: Congressman Pocan, it's an important reminder, the most important, the biggest number in the world is one, when it's one person that you know and love.
Congressman Pocan, again, we are sorry for the loss in your community. Thanks so much for being with us tonight.
POCAN: Thank you.
BERMAN: All right. We have breaking news in the one remaining case that could earn the president-elect prison time. Eventually, he was claiming presidential immunity, what the judge just said to that, and later, what the president-elect says about all the recent drone sightings lately with the current president's National Security spokesman says. And what the facts as we know it suggest about what's really out there.
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BERMAN: All right, to those who said Donald Trump won not just the presidency again last month, but also immunity from three criminal trials and sentencing for a conviction in the fourth, a New York judge has some breaking news. Juan Merchan tonight, ruling that the president-elect does not have immunity in the so-called hush money case or the 34-count conviction that resulted from it.
So what does that mean? With us now, two former federal prosecutors, bestselling author Jeffrey Toobin and CNN legal analyst Jennifer Rodgers. Also, CNN's Kara Scannell, who covered this case from beginning to end and now into overtime. So, tell us specifically about this ruling.
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So the issue in this case was the Supreme Court's decision on presidential immunity. And that said that evidence of official conduct could not be used in a criminal case, even if there was nothing wrong with it.
So the judge looked at this and he said that this hush money case, which involved the payment to the porn star and the cover up, was all unofficial conduct, had nothing to do with the presidency. He said it was logical, therefore, to think that any of the testimony that Trump's team was challenging, like Hope Hicks, Madeleine Westerhout, two White House aides, was also not official, writing, "This court further finds that the evidence related to the preserved claims relate entirely to unofficial conduct and thus receive no immunity protections."
And he said that if there were any mistakes in this case, it was harmless because the evidence presented by the prosecution, he said, was overwhelming. I mean, remember, this is just one of Trump's legal challenges. They have some others that they have working through the court system to try to get this conviction overturned. But this is a big decision here on presidential immunity.
BERMAN: And the impact of it. Jeffrey Toobin is what?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, this is the first case that really analyzes what the Supreme Court decision means. And what does it mean -- what is unofficial conduct and what is official conduct? The Supreme Court was pretty vague about that distinction. And at least in this one case, and of course, it's not binding outside of New York State is they say these conversations, even though they were in the Oval Office and even though two of them involved conversations with White House employees, because the subject matter was these payoffs and their implications from before he was president, that's unofficial conduct and that can be admitted in the evidence in this case.
So, Jennifer, what Jeffrey is talking about, his conversations and testimony from Hope Hicks, who was a key communications adviser to President Trump when he was president and a campaign before that, and Madeleine Westerhout, who actually was the doorkeeper and helped with the checks and whatnot. So if Juan Merchan says that they were not official acts, is that it?
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, he can appeal, of course. I mean, what happens next is this was a Motion to Dismiss and to throw out the verdict that Judge Merchan says, no, that's not happening.
So, now Judge Merchan has to move to sentencing or not. But that would be the next step. Then, of course, Trump does have an appeal of all of it, of the conviction, any errors at trial that he wants to allege the sentence, all of it.
So it will go up the New York State route to the appeals court there up to the New York court of appeals, which is the highest court in New York State. And then if he wants on the federal side on this, on this issue as well.
BERMAN: How much subjectivity do you think there will be on this issue of official acts? Because, as Jeffrey said, the Supreme Court was specific on a few things. Right? If it's from the Department of Justice, it's kind of an official act. But Hope Hicks and Madeleine Westerhout seems like more of a gray area, at least for now.
RODGERS: Well, they really looked at what the statements were, what the communications were, what they were about. It's one thing to talk about to DOJ about investigations, right? Federal investigations. You should investigate this or you shouldn't. They were talking he was talking to Hope Hicks about this again, this pre-presidential conduct clearly private in nature. And the Supreme Court said in one of the quotes taken from the presidential immunity case that you do have to look not just to who the communication is with, but what it's about.
TOOBIN: It's important to remember just what a new world we are in before the decision in Trump v United States, this Supreme Court case, everyone assumed that if you committed a crime when you were president, after you were no longer president, you could be prosecuted no matter what kind of crime it was. Now, there is this whole new area of immunity where if you're -- if its involving official conduct, no matter what the official conduct is, no matter if its ordering an assassination of your political enemies, you are immune according to the Supreme Court.
So now we have to decide or the courts have to decide what presidents can do that is actually admissible evidence of criminal guilt.
BERMAN: So, Kara, not surprisingly, Donald Trump and his team, they don't think this is the last word.
SCANNELL: No, I mean, they're saying that this is in direct contradiction of what the Supreme Court said, saying, "Today's decision by deeply conflicted acting Justice Merchan and the Manhattan DA witch hunt is a direct violation of the Supreme Court's decision on immunity and other long-standing jurisprudence. President Trump must be allowed to continue the presidential transition process and execute the vital duties of the presidency, unobstructed by the remains of this or any other witch hunt."
Now, we do expect them to appeal this, but they do have these other avenues that they're pursuing. They're saying that the same judge should throw out the conviction and the indictment based on the fact that Trump is president-elect and certain constitutional provisions that they think apply, such as the Transition Act, supremacy, and that's something that the District Attorney's Office has opposed.
It's interesting in their filings over that the D.A.'s office has said, you know, we are willing to say that you could put off the sentencing until after he's out of office and leaving this kind of open for the judge to decide. So, I mean, that's the next big decision in this case.
BERMAN: Jennifer, talk to me about how the appeals will work and whether they may be successful. And, ultimately, does this end up back at the Supreme Court one way or the other?
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, probably. I mean, you know, Jeff is right. It's a whole new world. You know, this is what the Supreme Court does. They give us these pronouncements, and they may give us some guidance about how they apply in the facts of the cases before them, and then they leave it to all these judges around the country to say, well, how does that impact my case?
What's official and not official on the facts that I have to decide? So that's what Judge Juan Merchan had to do. That's what every judge would have to do in these circumstances. Admittedly, we don't have --
TOOBIN: Right.
RODGERS: -- a lot of circumstances like this, right?
TOOBIN: It is worth keeping in mind. There are not a lot of criminal prosecutions of presidents of the United States.
RODGERS: Against presidents of the United States.
TOOBIN: There were -- there used to be four, now there's sort of one and a half. I guess the Georgia case is technically still alive. But I don't know if the Supreme Court will want to wade into this again. But it also is important, you know, for historical purposes, what this case decides is whether the president of the United States is a convicted felon.
There's not going to be a prison sentence. There may or may not be a fine --
BERMAN: So you don't think there'll ever be a prison sentence?
TOOBIN: No, not a chance.
BERMAN: Even after he's out of office?
TOOBIN: Zero, zero, zero of chance. SCANNELL: Agreed. The D.A.s in their recent filing to the judge in these motions even suggested that maybe there is an incarceration. It seems like they just want to move the ball to the finish line and maybe get the convictions laid out (ph).
RODGERS: Fine, done, no supervision, no jail, I think that's the cleanest way.
BERMAN: An interesting discussion, though, more than an academic discussion about what a president is or is not immune from. Maybe we'll get some more concrete answers over the next, I don't know, five, 10, 15 years.
Jeffrey Toobin, Jennifer Rodgers, Kara Scannell, thank you all very much.
Coming up, the mystery around drones spotted flying over New Jersey only deepened over the weekend. The federal government is urging calm, but state lawmakers and the general public have questions. President- elect Trump is now weighing in.
And later, the woman caught stowing away on a Delta flight to Paris last month was just apprehended again. We're going to have details on where she was heading this time and on what.
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[20:37:36]
BERMAN: All right, tonight, the FBI is warning the public not to shoot down unidentified aircraft as questions continue about the mysterious drones people say they have spotted flying over New Jersey. Pentagon officials stress there is no evidence the alleged drones have been sent by a foreign adversary.
But New York State lawmakers are calling on the federal government to release more information to the public as fear and uncertainty grows. Drone activity also forced officials to close the airspace over a critical military base in Ohio Friday night.
Today, we learned it was almost four hours. President-elect Trump floated his own drone theory during a press conference today.
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DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: The government knows what is happening. And for some reason, they don't want to comment. And I think they'd be better off saying what it is our military knows and our president knows. And for some reason, they want to keep people in suspense. I can't imagine it's the enemy because it was the enemy that blasted out.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: All right. He declined to comment when asked whether he received an intelligence briefing on the aircraft. For more on the federal government's response to all this, I spoke just before air with National Security Council Spokesperson John Kirby.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: Admiral Kirby, can you give the American people a solid yes or no at this point? Did these suspected drones or whatever they are pose any sort of threat?
JOHN KIRBY, NSC COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: As we speak today, John, the answer to that is no. We don't propose to see any national security or a public safety risk by these drones and these aircraft that are flying. And I would remind people that there are millions of drones that fly over the skies of the United States routinely, thousands and thousands that have registered with the FAA.
And a lot of them do really good work for public safety and for the public good, such as law enforcement drones, commercial drones. To date, no sense and no indication that there's a national security or public safety risk posed by any of this activity.
BERMAN: So we mentioned before that President-elect Trump today said that both the U.S. military and President Biden know more than they are saying about the drones. I want to play a bit more again of what Trump said. Listen.
TRUMP: The government knows what is happening. And for some reason, they don't want to comment. And I think they'd be better off saying what it is. Our military knows and our president knows.
BERMAN: So what's your response to that?
KIRBY: Well, we do have -- we have made an assessment today, John, after days and days now of forensics work, analysis, detection work and looking at the tips that came in. And our assessment is that these drones represent lawful, legal, commercial, hobbyist drones, even law enforcement drones.
[20:40:12]
BERMAN: So when former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson said today that he believes, quote, "our federal government is still struggling to figure this out," end quote, at this point, you don't think that's true any longer? You have, for lack of better words, figured it out?
KIRBY: I would go -- I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I would say that to date of all the leads and the analysis we've done, we believe that these are commercial, lawful drones or law enforcement drones, hobbyist drones, that we see nothing anomalous. No criminal activity, no national security threat post.
BERMAN: You won't go as far as you have it all figured out. What haven't you figured out yet? KIRBY: Well, we still got probably, I don't know, 100 or so tips that we're still trying to triangulate. Of the 5,000 or so tips and sightings that the FBI looked at, they've really narrowed it down to about 100 that they still have to kind of check out, that we haven't been able to rule out.
But right now, we still got about 100 or so that we believe we still need to kind of follow up on. And as more tips come in, I think that number could go up. So we'll just kind of see where we are.
BERMAN: So 100 still out there. Possible there's illegal activity going on with those 100?
KIRBY: I can't rule out the fact that we might find some sort of illegal or criminal activity, some nefarious activity. All I can do is tell you that right now we see none of that.
BERMAN: And finally, what kind of resources are being deployed tonight to follow up on the leads maybe of those 100 or to address this issue going forward if this is going to be a permanent reality?
KIRBY: I think, well, we've already flown in additional manpower, including visual observers to stand on the ground and do exactly what the mayor's doing, taking a look at the skies and seeing what's up there. We've also added detection capabilities, various counter UAS detection and analysis capabilities to technology to help us do the triangulation.
And then the third thing is, you know, we've flown additional personnel just in general to liaise and coordinate with local and state authorities. And that's the FBI who's doing the bulk of the investigating. That's DHS, who's also doing the bulk of the coordination between us and state officials. So there's been a lot of effort.
U.S. Coast Guard has added additional resources off the coast there to make sure there wasn't anything coming from the sea. And so we'll just -- we'll keep doing that as appropriate, of course.
BERMAN: All right, John Kirby. Nice to see you tonight. Happy holidays.
KIRBY: Thanks, you too.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: All right. Coming up, President-elect Trump is talking up the meetings he has been having with leaders of major tech companies. Tech journalist Kara Swisher joins me next with her take on why these CEOs are warming up to the incoming administration.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:18]
BERMAN: So leaders from the world of big tech are rushing to make inroads with President-elect Trump. The latest was the CEO of TikTok. The meeting came as the popular social media app faces a potential ban in the United States if it's not sold to a new non-Chinese owner.
The president-elect drew attention to his newfound popularity among tech leaders at today's news conference.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
TRUMP: I have a dinner with Tim Cook. I had dinner with sort of almost all of them and the rest are coming. And this is one of the big differences, I think, between we were talking about it before. One of the big differences between the first term. In the first term, everybody was fighting me. In this term, everybody wants to be my friend. I don't know. My personality changed or something.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos is set to meet with Trump this week. Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg made the trip down to Mar-a-Lago to dine with the president-elect the day before Thanksgiving. Both of their companies have committed to million dollar donations to the Trump inaugural fund.
Perspective now from longtime tech journalist Kara Swisher. She also co-hosts the Pivot podcast. Kara, great to see you. I'm not quite so sure the explanation is President-elect Trump's personality changed.
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, no, no, no. They just want to make some money. They're interested in shareholders. They don't have to spend that much to get him to make them richer. Look at Elon Musk, who is now worth $200 billion more for his $250 million dollar investment, probably one of the greatest investments in tech right now without any tech involved, which is interesting.
So they're all like giving small amounts of money. A million dollars is nothing to these people. They gave more to previous inaugurals, I believe. But, you know, it doesn't cost them anything and it gets them out of his way.
And right now, the social implications of doing it is low and the financial implications are high. So that's how they do it.
BERMAN: It's as simple as that, just money?
SWISHER: Money. They just want to be richer. They're already rich and they don't want them to get in the way. Each of them has a different reason. Google's facing enormous federal scrutiny with the Justice Department and everything else.
Amazon, Jeff Bezos would like some of those sweet space contracts that Elon Musk has. Everybody has a different reason for meeting. Obviously, TikTok is trying desperately not to have to be banned or sold in some fashion. So everybody's got a different story, the things they want.
And Trump is a very transactional president and it's very obvious. So they'll have dinner down at Mar-a-Lago. They'll do whatever it takes. We'll smile. They'll send them happy tweets and it works for him. So he likes to be liked and they will do that for him.
BERMAN: How much do you think they're affected by the example of Elon Musk?
[12:50:01]
SWISHER: A little bit, a little jealous, I think, probably. He went all the way in, you know, he went all in is they like -- they all like -- some of them like to play poker. And so, and it worked for him. If it hadn't, it would have been a much different story. But he did take that risk.
He has a very strong risk profile. And now what's -- there's no risk in doing this now and following in his wake, you know, and he could have a fact. That's why OpenAI's CEO, Sam Altman, gave a million dollars.
They are in very ugly litigation. Elon Musk and he is -- so he can do some damage to OpenAI by being right next to the president is, I guess, his best friend, I suppose, I guess. That -- sure.
BERMAN: Current maybe best friend, best billionaire friend --
SWISHER: Whatever.
BERMAN: -- it seems right now.
SWISHER: Sure. Why not? I love -- you know, we love love, don't we?
BERMAN: Always. I stand up for love every chance I get.
These billionaire tech CEOs, do they have politics per se that somehow they're adjusting to meet the moment, or is that not even a factor here?
SWISHER: I've never thought they did. You know, I think they just are mostly interested in the bottom line. I think they were -- they don't -- a lot of them, for example, Marc Andreessen doesn't like being any negative feedback from anybody, criticism. And so now he can, you know, lord it over people.
He's very interested in crypto, for example. Or he was somehow terrified by a meeting with the Biden administration. I can't imagine. I mean, I just don't believe it. But, you know, he gets a better deal out of the Trump administration. And they do not like regulation because they've lived without regulation for so long.
They don't want any. And so they're trying to protect that. And in that way, you know, they want it for the next age, for the AIH. They want nobody in their way, no guardrails. And, you know, that didn't turn out so great for everybody, but it turned out great for them.
They're the richest, the most powerful people on earth, and they want to stay that way. BERMAN: I want to play a little bit more of what President-elect Trump --
SWISHER: Sure.
BERMAN: -- said today. He was talking about TikTok. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
TRUMP: We'll take a look at TikTok. You know, I have a warm spot in my heart for TikTok because I won youth by 34 points. And there are those that say that TikTok has something to do with that.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: All right. I mean, we do need to say --
SWISHER: There were does.
BERMAN: -- we do need to say that, according to the exit polls, that Harris was beating Trump by, you know --
SWISHER: Yes.
BERMAN: -- by 11 points in the polls there.
SWISHER: Yes.
BERMAN: But President-elect Trump did have this meeting with the CEO of TikTok at Mar-a-Lago.
SWISHER: Sure.
BERMAN: There's other news with TikTok. They want the Supreme Court to jump in here and block this. What do you think is going to happen here?
SWISHER: Well, January 19th, if the Supreme Court doesn't act by January 19th, it's going to have to be banned or sold. That's it's the day before the inauguration. Obviously, Trump's going to have a play here, but they did pass a law. And so he doesn't have to enforce it necessarily, I guess.
It's really confusing. I think -- we'll wait to see what the Supreme Court does. I'm assuming they'll weigh in in some way because it's a big constitutional issue. But so far, TikTok keeps losing in court.
And the Chinese government is not in the best position right now from an economic point of view. They may have to make a deal here. The other part that people don't realize is that many of the owners of TikTok are not, in fact, Chinese. They're American billionaires, including Jeff Yass, who is close to Trump and gave him a lot of money.
Trump was the first person to be against TikTok before he was for TikTok. It's very John Kerry of him. But he -- and now because they love him and they're giving the warm digital hug, he likes them, I guess. I don't know.
BERMAN: In some ways --
SWISHER: I don't get my love from TikTok, but I'm glad that he's feeling better because of it.
BERMAN: Maybe he is in some ways a traditional politician, as they say.
Kara Swisher --
SWISHER: I guess so.
BERMAN: -- thank you so much for being with us. And I really appreciate your time.
SWISHER: Thank you. Thanks a lot.
BERMAN: All right. The Thanksgiving weekend stowaway who made it to Paris on a Delta flight is at it again. Details next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:29]
BERMAN: We have an update on the woman who managed to get past every level of security at JFK Airport in New York and stowaway aboard a Delta flight to Paris. That was the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. Now she is in trouble again for her travels.
Randi Kaye has the details.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Busted again. This time, Svetlana Dali was traveling by bus. Just last month, she had stowed away on a Delta flight from JFK Airport in New York to Paris.
A law enforcement source tells CNN, Dali had managed to cut off her ankle monitor on Sunday and was taken into custody today while on a Greyhound bus bound for Canada, multiple law enforcement told CNN.
SVETLANA DALI, RUSSIAN NATIONAL: I don't want to go to the United States.
KAYE (voice-over): That was Dali last month, the first time authorities tried to return the 57-year-old Russian national and a U.S. permanent resident to the United States from Paris. She created such a disturbance, Delta kicked her off the New York bound flight.
GARY TREICHLER, DELTA PASSENGER: What I saw was basically this lady that was progressively getting more and more irate and raising her voice louder and louder.
KAYE (voice-over): Earlier this month, another attempt to bring her back to the United States was successful. Dali sat in the back of the aircraft and was flanked by two French security officials the entire flight to JFK.
A week and a half ago, Dali was charged in federal court with one count of being a stowaway on a vessel or aircraft without consent. Among other things, the judge ordered Dali to wear an ankle bracelet with a GPS monitor, surrender any travel documents and told her she cannot go to airports or leave the area where she is staying.
That includes, of course, jumping on a Greyhound bus to Canada. Daly had been staying with a roommate. A law enforcement source told CNN her roommate reported her missing after he saw her GPS ankle bracelet on the floor.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Palm Beach County, Florida.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BERMAN: Unbelievable.
All right, the news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts right now.
