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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Trump Sees "Long-Term Ownership Position" For U.S. in Gaza; Trump: Palestinians Should Leave Gaza Permanently, Not Rebuild; RFK Jr. HHS Secretary Nomination Approved By Senate Finance Committee; Full Senate Vote Expected Next Week; FBI Turns Over Details Of 5,000 Employees Who Worked On Jan. 6 Cases To Trump Justice Dept. As Agents Sue; FBI Agents Sue DOJ Over "Unlawful And Retaliatory" Jan. 6 Scrutiny; Source: First Military Flight Carrying Migrants Headed To Guantanamo Bay; Trump Immigration Agenda Stirs Passion, And Fear In Nebraska. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired February 04, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TY COBB, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: A lot of agents touched this, and you take 5,000 agents out of 13,000, you know, you're decimating our National Security by attacking these people.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Yes, people with, obviously, long careers and experience, the gravitas and credibility that is required. Thank you very much, Ty.

COBB: And people who risk their lives for us.

BURNETT: Ty, thank you and thanks so much to all of you. "AC360" begins now.

[20:00:39]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, President Trump says the United States will take over Gaza and says, "Everybody I've spoken to loves the idea." Nearly two million people who live there might beg to differ.

Also tonight, the FBI purge continues and now DOJ officials are eyeing firing perhaps thousands more now being investigated for simply doing their jobs.

Also, CNN's John King, "All Over The Map" in Nebraska, where the immigrant workforce is living in fear and their employers are worried about filling jobs, most Americans will not take.

Good evening. John Berman here in for Anderson.

We have a flood of news, our top story is almost Biblical in proportion. Tonight, at a press conference with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, the president of the United States declared the US will take over Gaza. Own it, he said, and he would not rule out US troops to do it.

As for the men, women and children displaced by the fighting in Gaza, he said they need to leave, 1.9 million people, that's according to the UN, 1.8 million people, according to the president.

In his view, the war, which Hamas launched with their unprovoked October 7th attack should end with all those people living elsewhere and the United States in control of a large, almost beach resort.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: The US will take over the Gaza Strip, and we will do a job with it, too. We'll own it and be responsible for dismantling all of the dangerous unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site. Level the site and get rid of the destroyed buildings. Level it out.

Create an economic development that will supply unlimited numbers of jobs and housing for the people of the area, do a real job, do something different.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Again, he did not rule out American troops on the ground. He said he envisions this country, the US taking a, "long-term ownership position in Gaza." Needless to say, this is no off handed statement. It is also not normal, and it is also counter to what US presidents have been saying for generations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My vision is two states living side-by-side in peace and security.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security as part of a comprehensive peace between Israel and all of its neighbors.

JOE BIDEN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Two states for two people, both of whom have deep and ancient roots in this land, living side-by-side in peace and security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: More now on all of this from CNN's Kaitlan Collins in Washington, who was at the press conference. Kaitlan, you questioned the president. Was the White House, where officials, aware that he was going to make this sweeping announcement tonight? And where does he say he has the authority?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN, ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, he had been seeming to build to it really all day. We heard from him on Gaza and talking about moving Palestinians out of Gaza while it was being rebuilt before the prime minister of Israel even arrived here at the White House this afternoon.

And then again, President Trump repeated that sentiment when he was sitting next to him in the Oval Office talking about this idea that it is going to take 10 to 15 years to rebuild Gaza. And he was framing it through a humanitarian perspective, initially saying that essentially, it's not livable in Gaza because of all of the Israeli strikes and how destroyed the area has been, which we already know, given how displaced the millions of people who do live there already have been over the last 16 months, as this war has been going on since Hamas attacked on October 7th.

But the question is, what that looks like? And people were also raising the question of what an explosive sentiment this would be, certainly in the Middle East. To one, say that people should move out of their homeland, which Gaza is for the Palestinians.

But two, also the suggestion that neighboring countries should take them. That is already something that Egypt and Jordan have outright rejected this idea that they would be housing Palestinians inside their countries. We've seen some Israeli officials suggesting that previously, and they have said absolutely not, that that is not happening.

The president, though, does not seem to think that is off the table. And my key question to him tonight was where the Palestinians will go. This is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: To follow up on what you were saying about the Gazans leaving Gaza and going to other countries. One, where exactly are you suggesting that they should go? And two, are you saying they should return after its rebuilt? And if not, do you envision living there?

[20:05:10]

TRUMP: I envision a world, people living there, the world's people. I think you'll make that into an international unbelievable place.

I think the potential in the Gaza Strip is unbelievable, and I think the entire world, representatives from all over the world, will be there and they'll live there -- Palestinians also, Palestinians will live there. Many people will live there.

But they've tried the other -- and they've tried it for decades and decades and decades. It's not going to work. It didn't work. It will never work. And you have to learn from history.

History has, you know, you just can't let it keep repeating itself. We have an opportunity to do something that could be phenomenal, and I don't want to be cute. I don't want to be a wise guy. But the Riviera of the Middle East, this could be something that could be so bad -- this could be so magnificent. But more importantly than that is the people that have been absolutely destroyed that live there now can live in peace in a much better situation because they're living in hell. And those people will now be able to live in peace.

We'll make sure that it's done world class. It will be wonderful for the people, Palestinians, mostly we're talking about. And I have a feeling that despite them saying no, I have a feeling that the king in Jordan and that the general president, but that the general in Egypt will open their hearts and will give us the kind of land that we need to get this done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: He said he believes that the leaders of Egypt and Jordan will open their hearts there. John, I mean, that's a real question of what this means. And if he tries to essentially force Egypt and Jordan into this deal. The king is coming here next week. So, that will be certainly at the forefront of that discussion.

But before you even get to what that would look like and where the Palestinians would go, the president saying that the United States should take over the Gaza Strip is one of the most remarkable statements that I have ever heard, certainly at a press conference. And where he is saying this should happen. Keep in mind, there is a very, very delicate ceasefire deal that's in place right now.

The question going into this was whether phase two could even happen, because that calls for a permanent ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza. It wasn't even clear that they can get to that. And Trump was saying he hopes it will hold.

But remember, there are Hamas fighters living in Gaza right now. Obviously, there are Palestinian civilians living in Gaza right now, and there are Israeli hostages who are being held still by Hamas in Gaza right now.

And the question of what happens to all three of that, John, is just -- there aren't really a lot of details in this. But certainly one thing was clear, as the president was being very serious about what this would look like, he cited conversations with other leaders in the region. He did not name any of them individually, John, but I was just texting with one Israeli official this evening that I know from being on the ground in Israel and was saying this idea of having the US be in control of the Gaza Strip would be, to say the least, incredibly hard to implement.

BERMAN: A long-term ownership position. All right, Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thank you so much. We'll see you at nine for "The Source."

With us now, CNN's John King, CNN national security analyst Beth Sanner, CNN's senior political commentator David Axelrod, and Republican strategist, Erin Perrine.

David Axelrod, when you hear the president of the United States say that he wants a long-term ownership position for the US in Gaza, what do you hear? And what do you think the world hears?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, it's really hard to know where to start with that. The idea that you're basically -- you're saying we are going to expel 1.8 million people from their homeland. We are going to compel the Egyptians and the Jordanians to take them. Both countries have strongly rejected that. It's kind of an existential position for -- certainly for Jordan and probably the Egyptians feel the same way. They don't want Palestinians living in their countries. They think that destabilizes their countries.

The idea that the US would just seize the land and redevelop it as a real estate project, with the help of the US military. I mean, all of it is kind of mind boggling.

But, John, I think there's a bigger thing. Given everything that's going on in Washington in these first two weeks. I've said for eight years, the thing that concerns me is beyond policy. Donald Trump doesn't believe in rules and laws and norms or institutions. He doesn't believe them domestically. He doesn't believe in them internationally and he has defied them to get to this point and back to the presidency. And I think he feels indomitable and his attitude is, we will take what we want to take.

You know, we'll take Gaza, well take Greenland, we'll make Canada a state. We'll take the Panama Canal. This is really a dangerous, dangerous attitude. Just as its dangerous to say we're going to walk in and take over agencies and dissolve agencies and decide how money is going to be spent, regardless of what the Constitution says. There are implications to all of this that are very, very large, large for peace in the world and large for a functioning democracy here at home.

[20:10:37]

BERMAN: Beth, is there any actual mechanism for the United States to do this? And how would this region look upon? Basically, a US American island, on this territory, which is some of the most contentious on Earth?

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, you know, I always -- when people ask me what it was like to brief President Trump, one of the things I always say is that, you know, well, you have to adjust because he doesn't think like a typical foreign policy establishment person. And I think we just witnessed just a stunningly understatement to say outside the box thinking.

So, nobody -- this isn't on anybody's bingo card. I think that any region is probably, if they haven't heard it before from Trump is like literally their jaw is on the ground. There is no mechanism for this. There is no precedent for this. But, you know, as David was just saying, it runs counter to the Muslim Street in the region.

That's sometimes different than what leaders think. But the leaders in the region are afraid of the Muslim Street, and they're afraid that if they somehow support any of this, even Saudi Arabia, that's an autocracy. It could be a problem for them at home. They worried about assassination. They worry about protests. So, Jordan, Egypt, but even Saudi Arabia, these kinds of places.

And then on the flip side, even the settlers probably aren't excited about this in Israel because that's their land, not America's. So, I think that this will not actually materialize as presented today, somehow.

BERMAN: John King, what about the Dearborn Street? I mean, where do you see US domestic politics at play here?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are a lot of Democrats saying, I told you so, to their Muslim friends in Dearborn and in Hamtramck who couldn't vote for President Biden and many of them, some of them voted for President Trump, some of them stayed home.

So, there will be a domestic political fallout here. But, John, I think this is just much bigger than that. You have a president of the United States saying he will forcibly resettle people who live on land. The international community says is theirs. It's a violation of international law. It's a favor to his friend, Benjamin Netanyahu, but it runs counter to American policy.

You showed George W. Bush and Joe Biden and Barack Obama. It goes back before that as well.

For an American president who's supposed to be the beacon of democracy to the world, saying, look, it hasn't worked so, I don't think it's your land anymore, sorry. You've got to go, and I'm going to take it over. I have a few already from some European ambassadors saying, what?

They don't think this is going to happen. They're trying to figure out what the end game is. Trump often throws up these incredibly big, blustery things because he has a goal somewhere down here beneath them, and they're trying to sort that out.

But if you put it in the context of what you were talking about at the start of the program, we are two weeks and one day in, and they're dismantling federal agencies. They're firing federal employees. They're trying to do away with things that if the Congress would stand up to him and say, sir, we could talk about this, but actually the Constitution says that's our job.

This is a presidential power grab and a view of presidential power and now a view of American power. To David's point about Greenland, the Panama Canal, what's next? What's next? If he doesn't like the management of some country in Africa? If a red state doesn't like the blue state next door, there are rules and norms and laws for a reason. You can challenge them. But for a president of United States to unilaterally say, we can take land that belongs to somebody else is beyond astounding.

BERMAN: The issues at play are so big here. I realize it feels like were moving quickly, but there's just so many different aspects of this going on.

Erin, I want to play something else from this news conference. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Given what you've said about Gaza, did the US send troops to help secure the security vacuum?

TRUMP: As far as Gaza is concerned, we'll do what is necessary. If it's necessary, we'll do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So that's not using ruling out, Erin, using US troops in Gaza. This is a president who for many years opposed US intervention in Iraq and wanted to pull troops out of Afghanistan. Now, he wants to deploy potentially to Gaza?

ERIN PERRINE, FORMER DIRECTOR OF PRESS COMMUNICATIONS, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN: I wouldn't necessarily say that he wants to deploy, but this is a very typical tactic of President Trump, which is to say I'm not taking anything off the table with whatever the topic is. And certainly when it comes to geopolitics.

[20:15:14]

Yes, it's very clear that Hamas is running Gaza as of this point, and that remains a threat to the sovereignty of Israel. And with Bibi Netanyahu standing there, Donald Trump was doing everything to show our greatest ally in the Middle East that he wants to have their back and provide security. This is something I hadn't heard of before.

The idea of the United States unilaterally taking over Gaza. I think we are very far from any actual movement on any of this. But the main part of this being, Israeli sovereignty, I think, is one of the biggest keys here for Donald Trump and with Hamas in Gaza, that is a very close terrorist organization that can launch attacks into Israel at any moment. And we have seen how deadly Hamas can be to the Israeli population.

BERMAN: All right, stick around everyone. A lot more to discuss on this. We have a live report from Israel as the country and the region react to tonight's sweeping announcement from the president of the United States, who again, says he wants the United States to take a long-term ownership position in Gaza. And later, what a top Democratic senator makes of all of this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:17]

BERMAN: We're talking tonight about President Trump's stunning plan, which he rolled out at the White House about an hour ago to take over with US troops if necessary, Gaza, to take it over, to bulldoze it and tell the people who live there now, they have to go someplace else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Everybody I've spoken to loves the idea of the United States owning that piece of land, developing and creating thousands of jobs with something that will be magnificent in a really magnificent area that nobody would know. Nobody can look because all they see is death and destruction and rubble and demolished buildings falling all over. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in Israel for us and joins us tonight.

Jeremy, is it at all clear what would happen to the Palestinians who live in Gaza? What would happen to them? Where would they go? And would this plan have support among Israelis?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well. John, what President Trump is talking about here is forcibly displacing two million people from the land on which they live and moving them from their homes. There's no question that Palestinian people in Gaza want to see Gaza rebuilt, that they want peace and that they want security, but they also have a deep connection to their land, which has been evident over the course of the last couple of weeks as hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have moved back to Northern Gaza, returning to their homes even though they were very aware of the level of enormous destruction in Northern Gaza.

And so, when President Trump says that this is an idea that's been favorably received by everyone he's talked to, he clearly hasn't talked to any Palestinians actually living in Gaza.

You know, beyond that, of course, we know that, the president's idea here has been rejected by both Jordan and by Egypt, not just because it could be potentially destabilizing for them to receive so many refugees at the same time, but also because the people in those countries very much support the Palestinian cause.

And what President Trump is suggesting is essentially saying to one side of this conflict, you have to leave your land and just give it up for the United States to turn it into a real estate development.

BERMAN: Jeremy Diamond, for us in Israel tonight, great to have you there. Back with our panel now.

David Axelrod, the president of the United States, has now talked about occupying Gaza, ownership of Gaza, expanding into Greenland, taking over the Panama Canal. I don't know if I'm leaving anything else out here, but just explain to me, again, how the world do you think sees this?

AXELROD: Badly, John, is a one word answer. Listen, I think it was telling when Vladimir Putin rolled into Ukraine and President Trump's first reaction to it, then former President Trump was a "genius." And why did he say genius? Because if you can, if you can take another -- if you can roll in and take another country, why wouldn't you do it?

And the reason you wouldn't do it is because if everybody plays by those rules, you quickly devolve into global conflicts. Imagine how the Chinese interpret that as they as they eye Taiwan. If the new rule is that you can take anything you want, if you have the force to take it, we are in for a very, very tough time in a very near future.

BERMAN: Beth, I want to replay a little bit of what Kaitlan talked to the president about. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Where exactly are you suggesting that they should go? And two, are you saying they should return after it's rebuilt? And if not, who do you envision living there?

TRUMP: I envision a world, people living there, the world's people. I think you'll make that into an international, unbelievable place.

They are living in hell. And those people will now be able to live in peace. We'll make sure that it's done world class. It'll be wonderful for the people.

Palestinians, mostly we're talking about. And I have a feeling that despite them saying no, I have a feeling that the king in Jordan and that the general president that the general in Egypt will open their hearts and will give us the kind of land that we need to get this done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Beth, so much of US foreign policy in the first Trump administration and even the Biden administration has been kind of this wink to Saudi Arabia over time being like, we know that you want to reach some kind of a deal with Israel, and will make it happen when the time is right.

But the Saudis -- can the Saudis countenance this? Can they countenance two million people in Gaza being moved out?

[20:25:15]

SANNER: Well, let's imagine that, as Jeremy just pointed out that many Palestinians will not go willingly. So, that means that somebody, maybe the United States, because no Arab army is going to be carting people against their will out of their homeland. Those images will make it impossible for Saudi Arabia to sign on to the Abraham Accords.

It's just hard for me to think about this policy not being contradictory to other goals. First, it makes it very difficult for Hamas to stick to this deal to release the hostages. Why would they sign on to a deal that at the end of it, they lose their homeland?

Then you've got the problem of the Abraham Accords, which was a main feature of this. And I think it complicates that.

It could destabilize the entire region, which is also counter to the goals, because if you force Jordan by threatening to take away all of their aid and Egypt to get them to take Palestinians, you're going to destabilize those regimes, so less peace.

And what about the pivot to Asia? We've just now committed to just by National Security adviser Waltz's account today, a 15-year reconstruction project at a minimum.

So, we're in the Middle East instead of Asia. So, all these things kind of undermine the overall goals, I thought.

BERMAN: John, I think you correctly pointed out just the huge scope of this and the impact on humanity and human beings here, and also just the immense amount of power that President Trump is trying to take around the world and domestically.

Who, what, or how can anyone stand up to that?

KING: Well, you're going to watch and Trump actually likes this. Every member of Congress tomorrow is going to be asked, what do you think about this? Every world leader who shows up in a public setting is going to be asked about this.

Trust me, as I told you, two of European ambassadors in the last segment on my phone, I'm up to three now and plus the members of Congress, but no Republican will say it publicly yet.

It'll be interesting to watch the Republicans publicly, remember George W. Bush had that humble foreign policy. Can the United States say, I want the Panama Canal back, I want Greenland now, I want Gaza.

And beyond that, John, think about what you were just this conversation, how undemocratic, what the president of United States just said.

Democracy is based on the idea of self-determination, one person, one vote. He essentially just said the Palestinians don't count, right? He said he can remove them from their land in Gaza because they've had it for a while and it's not working out. So see, you get out. We're going to take it over.

And he also criticized the Palestinian Authority, saying they can't govern, which is a green light for Bibi to do what he wants to do, Prime Minister Netanyahu to do what he wants to do up in the West Bank and all that.

He praises the general. He doesn't like to call him the president of Egypt, because he likes to call him the general. And he called MBS, Mohammed Bin Salman, the leader of Saudi Arabia, a wonderful guy.

He's a murderous thug. He praised Qatar. Women have no rights. Individuals have no rights. These are places without democracies. And the president of the United States, the leader of the world's beacon democracy, on paper anyway, is praising autocrats and sounding like an autocrat and dismissing democracy and people's right to self- determination on land the world says is theirs.

BERMAN: Erin, any response to that?

PERRINE: I think it's hard to say that there's a lot of self- determination in Gaza with Hamas at the helm there. I think that that's just categorically false, especially if you're a woman --

KING: You don't take it away -- Hamas does not belong governing in Gaza. Two things can be true at once. I agree with the prime minister and the president. You can't have a terrorist group running land. However, does that mean all those Palestinian --

PERRINE: That's the biggest concern of President Trump.

KING: But do all the Palestinian people then forever lose their right to self-determination on their land because they have a terrorist problem? Fix the terrorist problem.

PERRINE: Well, it's fixing the terrorist problem, and it's beginning as a world to try and rebuild Gaza. That's also part of this. And really that I think is the biggest crux of this for Donald Trump. It's the rebuilding process. He's also been talking about the United States not pretty much being the sole person who -- the sole country who is out there trying to rebuild all these other nations.

We need coalitions, that's a bit more of what he's trying to lean into. I think here, when he's talking about who will help, who will take people in, I don't think you displace everybody from their country forever. That's not how this works. But making sure Israel maintains their sovereignty and that Hamas is eliminated are two things that are critical for world peace.

BERMAN: He did talk about a long-term --

KING: He on several occasions, John, had an opportunity to talk about a two-state solution or to talk about the Palestinians coming home. He didn't do that.

BERMAN: No, he was nowhere near the two-state solution.

AXELROD: Guys -- John, we ought to -- before you go, I know you got to run. Before you go, we ought to point out that he left open the question of Samaria about whether the West Bank then also can be taken by Israel. And he said he'd comment on that in the next four months. So, that would be the second piece expelling Palestinian from that area --

BERMAN: So, questions, clearly --

AXELROD: There is a lot that was said today that is going to inflame a lot of discussions in the Middle East and all over the world.

BERMAN: David Axelrod, John King, Beth Sanner, Erin Perrine, thank you all very much.

Next, were going to talk to Democratic Senator Tina Smith. Ask her to weigh in on the news.

And later, new developments in the FBI purge, which could soon possibly encompass 5,000 people or a third of the entire workforce all over work they may have done investigating the January 6th attack.

[20:30:44]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: So Donald Trump tonight may have undone decades of Middle East diplomacy by reverting to his real estate developer roots. In a stunning announcement at the White House, he said the United States should own Gaza, which is home to nearly 2 million Palestinians.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

[20:35:06]

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I do see a long-term ownership position, and I see it bringing great stability to that part of the Middle East and maybe the entire Middle East.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BERMAN: Let's get perspective now from Senator Tina Smith, a Democrat from Minnesota. Senator Smith, a long-term ownership position in Gaza for the United States. What do you think about that?

SEN. TINA SMITH (D), MINNESOTA: Well, this is horrifying, but it's hard to say we could be shocked by anything that comes out of President Trump's mouth. He seems to be completely ignoring the sovereignty and the self-determination of the Palestinian people who have lived in this place for generations, and he's got his eye on some real estate deal because he thinks that the coastline of Gaza is going to be great for some new hotel.

It is really incredible when you think about the people that have been there, who've been through so much, who've been victimized by Hamas and have been so devastated by this terrible war, are now confronted with the President of the United States seeming to say that the United States would move in and forcibly remove them to some other place.

It is just -- I mean, it's just ridiculous, right? It's just ridiculous.

BERMAN: Do you think he's serious?

SMITH: Well, I mean, you got to take this guy seriously. And, of course, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about what's happening at the U.S. Treasury tonight, and it doesn't -- seems to me completely possible that he's also trying to distract us all from the ransacking of the Treasury Department's federal payment system that is going on right now under the thumb of Elon Musk.

So I, of course, take him seriously. And I think this kind of lawlessness is just, we cannot stand for it.

BERMAN: You say you can't stand for it, what can you do about it?

SMITH: Well, that's exactly right. I mean, I will use all of the powers that I have, including my communications power, my legislative power, to try to stop this. I'm thinking about these -- you know, the stories that we're hearing coming out of Treasury with these 18 and 24-year-olds that have got their hands on the code for the payment system.

The ways that, you know, my dad gets his Social Security check and that my neighbors are getting their health insurance payments. And that is, we cannot stand for that. But as you point out, who has the power right now in the United States Senate? It is the Republicans.

And I'm wondering what are they thinking about this and what are they going to do about that? And honestly, it looks to me right now like the United States Senate, the Republicans in the United States Senate, it's Donald Trump's Senate.

BERMAN: Well, you say that. And today, Tulsi Gabbard and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. just took --

SMITH: Right.

BERMAN: -- key steps forward in their confirmation. I think you had a vote in the Kennedy situation in committee, not Tulsi Gabbard.

SMITH: Yes.

BERMAN: But what does it tell you that President Trump is getting what he wants, even over some murmurs earlier on of Republican opposition?

SMITH: Yes, I know. I mean, to see, as I serve on the Finance Committee and I saw every single one of the Republicans on the committee vote to move Robert F. Kennedy forward, a person who clearly cannot be trusted with the health of Americans and clearly doesn't have the experience or the background to run one of the largest and most complicated federal agencies.

He couldn't even really describe the difference between Medicare and Medicaid. And yet every single one of those Republicans voted for him. And this, I think, what we're seeing is the impact of the kind of hardball, intimidation-based tactics that the administration is using to cow these folks.

But, I mean, I can tell you this is going to come home to roost. And I hope I'm wrong, but I am very fearful that bad things will happen as a result of these people being put in these really important jobs. And I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

BERMAN: How long do you think President Trump can keep up the pace of things that he's been doing, whether it be at the domestic front in the agencies, whether it be announcing an ownership position in Gaza?

SMITH: I mean, I'm laughing, but it is just so tragic to think that a United States president would seem to suggest that we could go in and, you know, buy Gaza. Who knows? I mean, I think that this is part of his strategy, right?

He is, you know, as they say, they want to flood the zone. They want to just distract us so much by what's happening that we don't even know, you know, what's up and what's down. But we're not going to get distracted by this. We're going to stay focused on what he is doing.

And I just cannot believe. In fact, I see this in my home state of Minnesota. Thousands of people have been calling our office over the last several days, and they are outraged by what they see, particularly with Elon Musk and his interns in the Department of Treasury.

And, I mean, there is a consequence to this that I think he will feel. And I'm going to do -- I'm going to make damn sure that that's the case.

BERMAN: Senator Tina Smith from Minnesota, thanks for being with us tonight. Appreciate your time.

SMITH: Thank you.

BERMAN: Next, the growing pressure on FBI agents who investigated January 6th related crimes and the growing pushback in court.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:44:02]

BERMAN: Earlier today, FBI leaders turned over details on roughly 5,000 employees who worked on the January 6th investigations. This information was requested by Acting Attorney General Emil Bove on Friday. Today, Acting FBI Director Brian Driscoll handed over the information but did not include the employees' names.

This comes the same day a group of FBI agents filed a lawsuit against the Justice Department over a survey. Many were required to fill out about their roles in the investigation.

With us now, former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe and John Miller, a former FBI Assistant Director of Public Affairs, two people who know the ins and outs of this. John, what more can you tell us about the FBI agents suing the Justice Department?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So the FBI agents -- and John, this gets to the core of the two big questions within the FBI today and tonight is -- OK, so they turned over this list, I'm on it. What's going to happen next? And then there's the other question about what could happen next.

And by filing this lawsuit, among two that were filed today by the FBI agents, what they're saying is, let's get the courts to intervene to make sure, before they tell 5,000 people or 500 people that you're fired, not for cause, there's a process to go through. And they want to understand what that process is.

[20:45:17]

Now, when they file that suit, there's a very interesting quote buried in the middle of it, which I think we can go to. But it's the agent saying, clearly, the Trump administration believes that persons who were involved in the investigation and prosecution of the January 6th and Mar-a-Lago cases are insufficiently politically affiliated with Donald Trump to be entitled to retain their employment.

In other words, they're saying, outside of having been handed a lead by a supervisor and said, run this down and it's for this case, they had no connection otherwise. And that's why in the questions, they want to know, were you the case agent?

Did you make an arrest? Did you run leads? Did you do intelligence analysis connected with the case? You can't fire somebody for doing the job they're assigned to do, especially if they're doing it by the book.

BERMAN: You know, Andy, John ask a great question. Where is this headed now? I mean, the FBI has turned over all this information. But then there's the legal action against the DOJ by FBI agents who object to it all. So now what?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, those are two really important, excuse me, developments today, John. And on the one hand, you know, Brian Driscoll is in a very tough spot. He was asked to provide information about employees to DOJ in any other context outside this threat of political retribution.

It's not the kind of thing that you can really push back on. What makes it controversial is what we all believe DOJ intends to do with that information. So Driscoll really threaded the needle here by providing what they asked for, but in a way that the individual underlying employees can't be identified.

Now he's playing a dangerous game because when they determine that he's not being compliant enough, the next head they come for will likely be his. And the person who goes in behind him will probably not make the same mistake. So he's literally putting himself on the firing line to hold off this possibility of turning over the identity of all the employees.

On the other hand, the employees have done the right thing by getting the judiciary involved here. It is crucial that they get a neutral judicial opinion protecting them from things like the exposure of their identities, which once you ring that bell, it cannot be unrung on the internet, and possibly to forestall any sort of unlawful terminations.

This is the first step to protecting their rights. I'm very glad that they've taken it.

BERMAN: John, I suppose people should not be surprised by this.

MILLER: No, they shouldn't. And I think if you kind of look at where the clues lie, when they demand these names, you're like, OK, but what do you want them for? And the answer isn't, well, we're going to do a mass firing. They're like, just give the names.

But listen to what Stephen Miller, the policy adviser and deputy chief of staff, told reporters on the White House lawn last Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, WH DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: Well, with respect to the FBI, and I would just say to the law enforcement intelligence community in general, it's clear that there has been vast weaponization of the law enforcement apparatus against President Trump. This was probably the most discussed and litigated issue.

And the American people read there an overwhelming verdict on the question of whether or not we need to clean ranks in our law enforcement intelligence communities and ensure that the partisan weaponization of our justice system ends.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

MILLER: So clean ranks. There's no other way to really interpret what that means.

BERMAN: You know, Andy, you said something very interesting about the identities of the agents involved, that bell can't be unrung when their names get out. What do you mean by that? What are the risks there?

MCCABE: The risks are that someone makes the decision of identifying this group of 5,000 employees, 1,000 employees, whatever it is, and publishing that list on the internet and thus subjecting these loyal government workers who have never done anything.

There's not even a credible allegation that any of them have violated the law in any way, much less acted with -- in some sort of misconduct by doing their jobs, but subjecting them to the retribution, the targeting, the harassment, and possibly the violence that comes from handing them up to the crowd, right?

Handing them up to supporters of the President who would be willing to do who knows what to exact revenge upon these people. Handing them up to maybe the recently pardoned January 6th defendants. I mean, you know, there's -- you've really got to let -- you got to consider the safety and the security of these people.

[20:50:04]

BERMAN: Andrew McCabe, John Miller, thank you both very much.

Up next, President Trump's immigration agenda stirs passion and fear in deep red Nebraska. Our John King is back for the latest in his "All Over the Map" series.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: During an interview today, the White House press secretary confirmed the Trump administration has flown its first plane load of deported migrants to Guantanamo Bay. That follows other hardline immigration tactics, which include sending more U.S. troops to the southern border and high-profile ICE raids in major cities.

As part of his "All Over the Map" series, our John King went to Nebraska, which depends on immigrant workers, to see how this is playing out for voters and the immigrants themselves. Here's John.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Nebraska prairie, it's calm and quiet as the rolling farmlands wait out winter.

CROWD: This is what community looks like.

KING (voice-over): But even here, the new Trump agenda stirs passion and fear.

CROWD: Love over hate.

[20:55:12]

KING (voice-over): Immigrant workers are critical in a state where cattle outnumber people by more than three to one. Nebraska is second to Texas in U.S. beef production, sixth in pork, and its Cornhusker State nickname celebrates its role as an agriculture giant.

JOHN HANSEN, PRESIDENT, NEBRASKA FARMERS UNION: If we have a hitch in the get-along in Nebraska, it's a big enough processing state, it's going to be felt in the food chain.

KING (voice-over): By hitch in the get-along, Nebraska Farmers Union President John Hansen means a Trump immigration crackdown that rounds up undocumented workers.

HANSEN: Do we need better enforcement? I think we do. There's a constructive way to do it, and there's a less constructive way to do it. And so it remains to be seen how we proceed.

KING (voice-over): This is a red state, and its Republican governor is offering support if the Trump White House puts Nebraska on its immigration crackdown list. Fear is the word you hear most from immigrants, even those with legal status.

"GIN", NEBRASKA RESIDENT: This first term was more of like, let's see if this can happen. This year is more, I'm going to do it.

They go to school of --

KING (voice-over): Gin has a green card now, and is working toward citizenship, but he has family and friends who are undocumented, and he asks that we not use his full name.

"GIN": It's a scary time for my community, for people I care for, are basically, are not lucky enough like I am.

KING (voice-over): Rumors of ICE activity spread fast, as did word that agents can now enter schools and churches.

"GIN": It starts off people getting scared. Basically, it starts off like, have you seen immigration? Have you seen this? And you see the fear in people's eyes, just the fact that they can't go out to the store, they can't go get groceries, or even hospitals. It's just a hard time.

KING (voice-over): Immigrant advocates like Mary Choate say clients are worried now, about sending their children to school, or showing up for English classes and other services. MARY CHOATE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION ASSISTANCE: We really want to keep immigrants and refugees involved in the community, because they're so integral to our community. But it's been very difficult for them to be able to do that, because they fear going outside of their homes.

"G", ASYLUM SEEKER: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

KING (voice-over): G is seeking asylum. She was a journalist back home in Honduras, targeted by the government, she says, after reports detailing corruption.

"G" (through translation): If I go back to Honduras, they will kill me.

KING (voice-over): She entered the states a year ago, using a Biden administration phone app that Trump eliminated on day one.

KING: Your lawyers tell you, you're in the asylum process, and you should be OK. But with Trump as president, are you worried?

"G" (through translation): Of course, for sure.

KING: Why?

"G" (through translation): Because he tries to implement quite strict policies with immigrants in general, and I think even more with people who have just entered the country. At least with the program I entered with, there is some instability, so to speak. So, of course, that increases anxiety and concern.

With Trump's arrival, I have felt very unstable. I have a lot of anxiety, I suffer from insomnia, and I cannot stop thinking about the possibility of being deported. I cannot go back.

KING (voice-over): Nebraska State Senator Kathleen Kauth is pushing a new E-Verify law that requires employers to certify their workers are legal. Simple and common sense, she says. But Kauth concedes the polarized national debate might make it harder to win over Democrats.

KATHLEEN KAUTH (R), NEBRASKA STATE SENATOR: I'm really more worried about Nebraska and focusing on, what do we need in Nebraska to understand the problem? How do we make sure that we are keeping people who are not here legally from taking jobs from people who are here?

KING (voice-over): Kauth believes the state can handle any workforce disruption caused by stronger enforcement, and she is a state example of the Trump effect on the Republican Party. Any path to status or citizenship for those already here illegally must start with going home.

KAUTH: I kind of view it as a poison apple from the poison tree, whatever the legal definition is. If your first act is to break the law, you have become a criminal. And so therefore, everything after, even if it's well-intentioned, even if it's wonderful, please go back and go through the process, because we do want you here, but we need you to do it the right way. And I don't think that that should ever change.

KING (voice-over): Go back is the driving theme of the new Republican immigration push, and a big reason more immigrants think it's best to stay in the shadows.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BERMAN: And John King is with us now. John, I was always good at geography, and I know that Nebraska's not a border state. So why did you choose to go there to focus on immigration?

KING (on-camera): A couple of reasons. As we expand the project now to look at the midterms and how the Trump policy impacts the country, not just in blue states or swing states, but also in red states, remember, yes, Nebraska is red, but it has that Don Bacon district near Omaha, a Republican who won the district that Kamala Harris carried in the race for president. That's number one.

Number two, it is a red state, right? Is Donald Trump willing to disrupt his farmer friends? Is he willing to disrupt the meatpacking industry by doing this? So we want to test Trump policies as we look forward, yes, mostly in swing states, but also in places that will have competitive elections that have fascinating stories.

BERMAN: I look forward to hearing so many more of them. John King, you've been so helpful tonight. Thanks so much for being with us. There is a lot going on.

The news continues. "The Source" with Kaitlan Collins starts right now.