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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Judge Scolds DOJ In Tense Hearing Over Deportation Orders; Interview With Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT); Trump Claims January 6 Committee Pardons Are "Void"; New CNN Poll: Dem Favorables At Record-Low 29 Percent; Gov. Moore: What DOGE Is Doing Has Been Disastrous; How Russia Is Framing Tomorrow's Putin-Trump Conversation; Voice Of America Channels Fall Silent As Trump Admin. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired March 17, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANGELA DINAPOLI, ASTRONAUT SUNI WILLIAMS' FORMER TEACHER: And so, I can see her with this kind of a mission where she's dealing with different crew members. She's been through, probably this is her probably sixth crew group that she's been with. So, she gets along with everybody and everybody gets along with her.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Well, it's just truly incredible and I know we will all be cheering for her and Butch's safe return tomorrow after so long. Thanks so much for sharing some of that with us appreciate it.
DINAPOLI: Well, thank you Erin for having me.
BURNETT: And it is just a few hours now, Suni Williams and Butch Wilmore will leave the International Space Station. Live coverage begins at 1:00 A.M. Eastern and Anderson takes over now.
[20:00:40]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, breaking news, a federal judge scolds the Trump administration and demands answers over an order he issued denying the deportation of migrants to El Salvador.
And as the world waits for a call between President Trump and President Putin on the American proposed Ukraine peace deal, we'll get a report from Moscow on how it's being viewed there.
And President Trump has now gutted the Voice of America, the federally funded media outfit that spoke truth to power to dictatorships around the world.
Late breaking news tonight. Thanks for joining us on our showdown between the White House and the Judiciary. Co-equal branches of government that has yet again raised concerns about the possibility of a constitutional crisis.
Now, that's a phrase that has been used a lot lately. Overused, perhaps, given the conflicts between our three branches of government are inherent in our system. But if one branch of government say the President ignores the legitimate authority of another branch, the Judiciary, then that could end up provoking such a crisis. At issue right now is one judge's order and if and when and how the
Trump administration potentially defied it.
Now, on Saturday, the President invoked a rarely used 18th Century law called the Alien Enemies Act to deport Venezuelan migrants they allege were part of an international gang. In response, a lawsuit was filed and a hearing set for that day by Judge James Boasberg of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.
Now, the timeline is important to the story here, so I do want to spend a moment just kind of diving into the details of it. At 5:00 P.M., the hearing began at 5:22 P.M. the court hearing adjourned for a break. Then four minutes later, 5:26 the first flight carrying non- citizens departed from Texas. At 5:45 P.M. a second flight carrying non-citizens departs from Texas as well.
At 6:00 P.M., the court hearing resumed. Between 6:45 and 6:48 P.M. the judge verbally tells Justice Department attorneys that they need to turn around any planes carrying anyone being deported under this Alien Enemies Act. At 7:26 P.M., the judge's written order is posted and reads in part, "as discussed in today's hearing, the court orders that the government is enjoined from removing from the country any non-citizens in U.S. custody who are covered by Trump's proclamation about the Alien Enemies Act."
Now, the written order did not specifically include language about turning flights around, which is what the judge had said earlier in court verbally. Ten minutes later, at 7:36 P.M., the first flight carrying non-citizens for deportation arrived in Honduras. At 7:37 P.M., a third flight carrying non-citizens for deportation departed from Texas.
Then, at 8:08 P.M., the second flight carrying non-citizens landed in Honduras for a layover and eventually landed in El Salvador later that night, 9:52 P.M., the third flight carrying non-citizens also arrives in El Salvador.
Now, those flights were not turned around. Clearly, many of the deportees ended up in El Salvador, whose President, Nayib Bukele, cultivates a strong man image and is now championed by the conservative movement here in America.
Early Sunday morning, President Bukele posted this on X, a headline that reads "Fed judge orders deportation flights carrying alleged Venezuelan gang bangers to return to U.S. blocks Trump from invoking Alien Enemies Act."
The President added his own take on it. "Oopsie. Too late." The post was then re-shared by White House communications director Stephen Cheung and liked by Secretary of State Marco Rubio.
About 30 minutes later, President Bukele posted this highly produced video deportees from the United States landing in El Salvador, shackled and bussed into the country's infamous terrorism confinement center, which can hold as many as 40,000 inmates in draconian conditions. CNN's David Culver recently got an exclusive look inside, and I just
want to show you some of what he saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Suddenly, you're hit with the intense gaze of dozens locking on to you. These men, described as the worst of the worst, tattooed with reminders of El Salvador's dark past. It's tense and uncomfortable. But here, officials say comfort isn't meant to exist.
CULVER (on camera): We're going to close the door. I just want to get a sense of -- wow.
CULVER (voice over): Solitary confinement awaits.
CULVER (on camera): The only light you get is through this hole, and it can be in here for 15 days, potentially. All right, I'm ready to get out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: As far as President Trump, in the very real question of if his administration violated a federal judge's order, he was asked about it last night on Air Force One.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Did the administration, actually, speaking of orders, violate Judge Boasberg's order in sending back the Venezuelan gang members and not bringing them back?
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know -- you have to speak to the lawyers about that.
REPORTER: Are you planning to do more deportations?
TRUMP: I can tell you this, these were bad people. That was a bad group of, as I say, hombres.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:34]
COOPER: Well, today, White House Press Secretary, Karoline Leavitt was pressed by CNN's Kaitlan Collins about the order and the timeline.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There's actually questions about whether a verbal order carries the same weight as a legal order, as a written order and our lawyers are determined to ask and answer those questions in court.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, there is no difference between a
verbal and written legal order. And even if there was, that third plane departed for El Salvador, even after the written one was filed, that press briefing was early this afternoon, a few hours later. The argument was no longer one of semantics and timing from the White House. It was that this federal judge had no authority to issue the order at all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STUFF: The District Court has no ability to in any way restrain the President's authorities under the Alien Enemies Act, or is the ability to conduct the foreign affairs of the United States. This judge violated the law. He violated the Constitution. He defied the system of government that we have in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, late today, in a tense hearing, Judge Boasberg demanded the Department of Justice to produce answers to a number of questions, including specifics on the timing of the flight's, departures and landings. By tomorrow afternoon.
For more on all of that, I want to bring in Kaitlan Collins, CNN chief White House correspondent and host of "The Source" at the top of the next hour.
So we heard a bit of what the White House Press Secretary said. What more did she say when you pressed her?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: She was really kind of laying the groundwork, Anderson, for what we later we're going to see happen in court, where these Trump Justice Department lawyers, who were not really answering a lot of the questions or the specific questions that Judge Boasberg had during that hearing that he scheduled for 5:00, which I should note right before the administration tried to get it canceled, he said no. And so they were still inside that courtroom.
They were kind of laying the groundwork for what that argument was going to look like. Because the question and as you noticed when Karoline Leavitt was talking about this and saying that they did not defy any orders from the judge. They kept referring to the written order and that timeline that you pointed out on Saturday is important here, because what had happened as this hearing was going on was two of these flights had taken off from Texas. But then Judge Boasberg issued his verbal order from the bench, saying that they needed to turn the planes around. Had they already taken off or not let them take off, had they not.
And then it was about 40 minutes later that his written statement came out, and then it was about 10 minutes after that hit the docket that then that third flight took off. That is why all of this matters here, because they're now making arguments about where they were in the airspace and whether or not he has jurisdiction over that. He was saying a little -- a lot of this is a stretch in terms of whether or not that is the case here.
But on the verbal order versus a written order, Karoline Leavitt continued today and said this to me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You keep talking about the judges written order, which hit the docket Saturday night at about 7:26 P.M., but he issued a verbal order before that at about 6:45 and 6:48 P.M. based on the court hearing, a verbal order from the bench. Does the White House feel the need to comply with a verbal order from this judge?
LEAVITT: Again, as I said, all of the planes subject to the written order of this judge departed U.S. soil, U.S. territory before the judge's written order.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, a distinction between a verbal order and a written order is not really one that is widely accepted inside a courtroom. You saw the judge today calling it a stretch to the Justice Department attorneys.
But, Anderson, really where we are and where he did not get answers is the exact timeline of when the government believes his order went into effect and when these flights took off. And those are the crucial factors that he is trying to determine here and whether or not they flouted his order that came out on Saturday night, as they were very much discussing this.
And so, it's a real question of what happens next and if they are going to get answers from the Justice Department attorneys tomorrow who firmly believe that they were in the right here and that they huddled, they thought about this. They had conversations about this on Saturday night, and they allowed these flights to continue.
COOPER: Is it clear to you if the White House sees this as a one off battle over a particular case, or is this a broader strategy of how they want to deal with the federal courts going forward? Is this trying to kind of set a benchmark?
COLLINS: Well, I think immigration is certainly an issue they'd like to have this battle over. They're not shying away from that. And they're obviously making these arguments based on this law that Trump signed and put into place on Friday to be able to deport these Venezuelan migrants and using that.
So, I mean, it also really depends on the legal mechanisms of what they're looking at here, you know, whether or not they feel like they can end up in a court battle over this on another issue remains to be seen. It seems very specific to flights being used here. The law that Trump invoked on Friday and also these flights being over International Waters at some point as they are making their journey from Texas to Honduras to El Salvador.
[20:10:10] And so, that's really the question here, is whether or not were going
to see this again. But you can't ignore the context here, which is in the last eight weeks since Trump has been in office, the only real resistance he has faced to executive orders that he signed or steps that he's taken, or Elon Musk's mass firings to the federal government has come from the court and courts generally, and judges, and they have complained about judges getting involved here.
So, we'll see, obviously, what that looks like and how that shakes out. But they've had a lot of court order issues and they've complained about this.
Now, some lawyers would say the typical recourse here is to appeal that filing that came from Judge Boasberg on Saturday night, that written order that was issued about 40 minutes after the verbal order. But the administration is clearly saying they're focusing on the written order here. What that looked like.
Now, what his decision is tomorrow on this complex issue remains to be seen.
COOPER: All right, Kaitlan, thank you very much. We'll see you at the top of the hour. Your guest is going to be Maryland Congressman Jamie Raskin.
Joining me right now is Congressman Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut and the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee.
Congressman, do you think America is on the brink of a constitutional crisis here?
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): For a great long last, Anderson, I do. You know, we've been, as you pointed out, throwing that term around pretty sloppily in the last two months or so. But the definition of a constitutional crisis, of course, is when you have no way to resolve two branches of government warring with each other.
And, you know, you see exactly what's happening here. It's a very interesting moment because this is what Donald Trump does in life, right? You see him exploring the threshold of ignoring a court order, knowing because he said so before and because his people know this, that that is very serious business, that that is a constitutional crisis. So, they're throwing every mad legal theory up against the wall. They're dissembling, they're taking their time and everything. And I'll tell you, we've seen this movie a hundred times before.
If these courts don't stand up very quickly and say, we are going to hold individuals in contempt and start doing some of the things that courts can do when they hold individuals in contempt, you can bet that next week the encroachment will be a little bit bigger. And pretty soon this administration will be entirely ignoring court orders.
COOPER: Also, I mean, we should point out this judge isn't saying that those individuals should be immune from deportation, nor is he saying they should be free to roam the streets. They are obviously already in custody. The issue is the law that's being invoked to trigger the deportations. Why do you think the administration is choosing to go to the mat on this case?
HIMES: Well, there's -- that's a separate issue. That's the substance of the case. And, you know, we discover when somebody is willing to push the outer limits of the law, we discover that there are laws out there. This law that I presume almost no American had ever heard of, that the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State alone can decide that a non-U.S. citizen in the country is a danger to our foreign policy and deport them. You know, they are going to keep pushing these laws.
In this case, of course, a law that goes back to shortly after the Revolutionary War to get exactly what they want, but that doesn't -- again, that's entirely separate from the question of whether we push back hard right now on this administration's initial penetrations into the world of defying a court order.
So, regardless of the substance, this judge has to say, under no circumstances can this administration violate any court order. You know, you've already seen it on social media, with them denying the very idea that courts can review the actions of the President.
Now is the time for the courts to push back and say, you better pay attention or we will start, you know, holding people in contempt and garnishing wages and that sort of thing.
COOPER: President Trump gets higher approval ratings for actions on immigration than any other issue, higher than at any point during his first term. Do you think the White House feels it has more freedom to push the envelope on this particular subject?
HIMES: No question. I mean, otherwise, why would they be making these films, these videos, including the one that you've been running in your show today? They're obviously doing that because they --
COOPER: Well, I think that was made by the El Salvadorian authorities when -- but just reposted by them. I'm not --
HIMES: Yes, fair enough. But you know we've seen administration produce videos of people being put on planes and that sort of thing. Now, and that's going to last by the way, this is sort of classic Hollywood. That is going to last right up until the moment that it is discovered that some innocent person is now, you know, being brutalized in El Salvadoran prison. When the blowback that inevitably comes, when you completely ignore due process comes to roost in the form of stories of people being horribly abused, that's when the numbers are going to begin to change a little bit.
COOPER: Right, we don't know who's really on this flight. I mean, we we're told it's the worst of the worst. It's members of this Venezuelan gang. And you know, but we don't know for sure.
HIMES: Well, you'd think that if the administration, if that were true, they might have actually released a list of these people and maybe folders on why they consider them the worst of the worst. But, you know, think back on anything else this administration has done that stop-start tariffs, the lists that Elon Musk posted about DOGE achievements that turned out to be wrong by, you know, billions and billions of dollars.
They don't give you a lot of confidence that, in fact, everybody that was on that plane was the worst of the worst, as they are alleging.
[20:15:22]
COOPER: And just to go over this just again, even -- if these people are the worst of the worst, if they are these worst gang members from this terrible gang from, from Venezuela, which have committed crimes here in the United States, what is wrong, in your opinion, with what's happened?
HIMES: Nothing at all, I certainly have always believed and continue to believe, and I think most Americans believe that if you're in this country, undocumented, illegally, and you commit a crime, you're on the next bus out. No, I don't think anybody argues with that.
But what is critical there, of course, is due process. Right. You know, get them out. But let's at least make sure that were deporting people who we know fall into that category. False arrests are made all the time. All kinds of shenanigans can happen in a court system. So, by all means, toss them out. But do it transparently and with due process so we can tell whether were doing the right thing as a country or deporting innocent people.
COOPER: Congressman Jim Himes, thanks for your time.
Much more now on this legal fight that could redefine the relationship between the federal courts and the presidency. Plus, another highly debatable legal claim by the President about why he says President Biden's pardons for members of the January 6th committee are, "void, vacant and of no further force or effect."
And later, well delve into a new CNN poll that shows Democrats with record low favorability. We'll also talk about what Democratic voters want to see from their leaders with Democratic Governor Wes Moore of Maryland ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:21:11]
COOPER: I want to continue our discussion now about the major legal fight escalating between the federal courts and the Trump administration over this weekend's deportation of alleged Venezuelan gang members? The fight is shaping up to be a potentially precedent setting battle over whether, and to what degree the federal courts can constrain a President's actions.
Joining me now is former federal judge Nancy Gertner; CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig; Liz Oyer, who was the pardon attorney for the Justice Department until she says she was fired earlier this month for refusing to recommend Mel Gibson's gun rights being restored; and our chief data analyst, Harry Enten.
Judge Gertner, when you hear the Trump administration argue that the judges verbal order doesn't carry the same weight as his written order, or that the judge doesn't have jurisdiction over the planes once they've taken off, or that the DOJ isn't willing to share information with the judge because of National Security. What do you say?
NANCY GERTNER, FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE: What I would have say in court -- I mean, it is a its extraordinary. Let me let me first say that any lawyer who's listening to this would know that if you have if there's a challenge to your authority, an injunction, you stop the act to give a hearing, an opportunity to go forward.
In other words, you don't even need an injunction to say that if something is being challenged in court, you don't do it until the court resolves the issue. So, there's no difference between an oral injunction and a written injunction, and the judge, as judges across the country have every right to look at the that the invocation of this 18th Century statute to decide if it is appropriate, if there was an invasion, if in fact, these were you know, agents of a foreign enemy.
In other words, the threshold questions are entirely questions for judges to decide, not Stephen Miller, and certainly not even the President.
COOPER: Elie, you wrote in an op-ed, you said that you're typically wary of the phrase constitutional crisis because, as I said, I do think its overused. But if the President is blowing off the courts, he wrote, then our only options are pale ones indeed. Where are we tonight?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, so we have a little bit more information now because of today's hearing. And there's really only two possibilities here. Option one, and the judge is clearly determined to get to the bottom of this. Option one, is DOJ knowingly and intentionally defied a court order. If that's the scenario, then it's a major problem and there's not really any remedy. All that the court can do is either impose sanctions or give a tongue lashing but is that going to matter to an administration that will defy a court order?
The other option that is emerging is that DOJ was sort of intentionally reckless. What you ordinarily do, especially if you're DOJ, you're held to the highest standard. You say, okay, we have a hearing Saturday. Here it is Saturday morning, we know the judge is going to hear this case Saturday afternoon. Let's wait and see what he does and let's make sure we comply.
Instead, DOJ here, they had the jets loaded and fueled and they almost seemed to want to try to create a situation where they could say to the judge, whoops, too late. What are you going to do? They're both bad options and were going to learn more. Its why the judge is determined to get specific answers.
COOPER: Liz, what would have happened if you if you told a federal judge that you didn't have to comply with a verbal order only, his written order, that you weren't going to give him the information he was asking for?
LIZ OYER, FORMER DOJ PARDON ATTORNEY: Anderson, I've appeared in front of many judges throughout my career, and I can tell you that every single one of them would have lit me up if that were my answer.
COOPER: How do you -- I mean, Harry, how do most Americans view the Trump administration complying with judge's orders?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes, so this is a great question because it's should he and will he. Should, what we're talking about is more than four-fifths of Americans who say he should, in fact, comply with the court's orders, right?
But will he -- significantly less than that. In fact, what we're talking about is just a little bit north of 40 percent of Americans. So, they're not expecting too much of Donald Trump when it comes to this, even if they think he should be doing this. But more than that, we already know that most Americans believe that Trump has exceeded his authority as President.
We had a "Washington Post"/IPSOS poll that came out in the last month, and what it showed was the clear majority of Americans north of 50 percent, believe that he's already exceeded his authority as President. So, I don't think whatever actually comes about what we find out, what Elie was talking about a little bit before. They don't think it will be exactly surprising the American people. They don't expect much from this President, but they are disappointed, perhaps, with what he does.
[20:25:25]
COOPER: Liz, last night the President posted on social media, this is on another whole other story. He said, "The pardons that Sleepy Joe Biden gave to the unselect committee of political thugs and many others are hereby declared void, vacant and of no further force or effect because of the fact that they were done by autopen. In other words, Joe Biden did not sign them, but more importantly, he did not know anything about them."
Now, obviously, the autopen is a device presidents of both parties have used to sign documents when they don't have the time or inclination to sign it by hand. It's not clear if President Biden did that or not. I understand you were not involved in those decisions, but can a President void his predecessor's pardons regardless of the circumstances? Does it work that way?
OYER: Anderson, yes. To be clear, the office of the pardon attorney, where I worked had had no role in the decision making around that pardon, and I think we could have a legitimate debate about whether the President should or should not have the power to issue preemptive pardons like that one. But what is established is that the President does, in fact, have that power. And once the President makes the decision to do that, it is unprecedented. There is no authority for a subsequent President to try to undo the pardon.
I think that tweet is really just a distraction. It's really just one small example of the fact that the President is determined to demolish the rule of law, and he is prepared to steamroll anything or anyone that's standing in his way.
I want to note that one of the most, -- I think, solidifying moments was when he appeared in the Department of Justice on Friday and gave a speech in the Great Hall, in which he declared that he is the chief law enforcement officer in this country.
That is unprecedented. That is the job of the Attorney General. And the Attorney General stood by his side. She introduced him and she essentially endorsed the idea that she's not going to be independent of the President. She does not have an agenda of her own. She's not going to stand up to him. She is there to facilitate the President's agenda.
And I don't think anyone who saw either her remarks or his remarks could have any doubt that the President is the one who is setting the agenda for the Department of Justice. He is also at the same time, kneecapping the defense bar, which plays a crucial role in pushing back against excesses of the Department of Justice by going after attorneys who've represented people who he does not like.
So, he's really going after the rule of law for multiple different directions. And it's a very scary, alarming situation for all Americans and should be to everyone, regardless of their politics.
COOPER: Judge Gertner, I mean, if the President says the pardons are null and void, and the Justice Department and the FBI work for him, what's to stop them from launching investigations into the January 6th Committee members? I mean, would courts in some ways step in on that?
GERTNER: Nothing, well, I mean, that's what one would have to do in this situation is what -- what's doing -- what one is doing with respect to the deportation orders, the various executive orders is they will have to be challenged in court. He would start an investigation. There would be a challenge to the investigation saying we were pardoned, and then you'd have to litigate the legitimacy of the pardon.
But the scary thing about this, scary is not a strong enough word, he is simply testing the limits of our judicial system and testing the limits of our law. And while his minions are claiming that, you know, this is the judge's fault and that they should be impeached, the fact of the matter is that what he is doing and trying to do is lawless from top to bottom, and it would be shocking if judges did not respond. In other words, it's his doing, not their doing that is the problem.
COOPER: Well, Elie, let me just point out a possibility here because Liz brought up this idea. I mean, if, say, he goes after January 6th Committee members, they look to a law firm in Washington, D.C., they want to hire a good law firm to defend them against FBI investigations.
The President is now going after law firms in Washington, specifically to prevent them from taking cases of people who might be run afoul of the Trump administration.
So, he's going after big law firms in Washington to intimidate them, to not take any of these cases.
HONIG: This targeting of law firms is so corrosive on a couple of levels. First of all, it threatens the very existence of these law firms because the question is, if there's a huge client out there, a defense contractor that needs to get contracts with the federal government to survive, why are they going to hire one of these law firms on the blacklist, I should say I worked at Covington & Burling a long time ago, one of the law firms that's been singled out.
COOPER: But any corporation, why would they hire one of these law firms if the President is going to attack that corporation just because they use these lawyers?
HONIG: They're going to be shut out from contracts. But more to the point, it goes to the heart of the right to counsel. Covington's great sin here is they're representing Jack Smith. Whatever one may think of Jack Smith, and I don't think he did anything remotely criminal. He sure as heck is entitled to have counsel and to have counsel of his choosing.
Criminal defendants are entitled to the counsel, and if they can afford it, counsel of their choosing. So, not only is he posing a very serious threat to law firms, and by the way, people at law firms are rightly extremely alarmed about this, but he's really undermining the constitutional right to counsel that applies to everybody.
[20:30:50]
COOPER: Well, also, Liz, I mean, it's -- going after these attorneys, not necessarily for anything they've done, but just for being on this law firm, removing security clearances, stopping them from entering a federal building so they can't even defend a client to meet with government prosecutors.
OYER: Yes, it's very scary. I spent 10 years working as a federal public defender, and I can tell you that defense attorneys play an absolutely vital role in pushing back against some of the prosecutorial powers that the president is asserting.
Without defense attorneys, the prosecutorial power is essentially unchecked. We've heard a lot about weaponization of the Department of Justice from this administration. The fact is that the instruments of the Department of Justice, they are very, very powerful tools, and the effect can be quite damaging if you're on the receiving end of a federal prosecution, but that is by design, and it is a feature of the system that we have all of these safeguards to ensure that those powers cannot be used unchecked.
We have guardrails within the Department of Justice that are being ripped away right now by this administration. We have guardrails outside the department, like the right to counsel, that are being ripped away. And at the end of this, there is going to be nobody left standing who can safeguard against any of the unprecedented uses of the Department of Justice that this administration seems to be embracing.
COOPER: Everyone, thank you. I appreciate it.
A new CNN poll shows Democratic favorability an all-time low. Take a look at what's next for the party. Talk with Maryland Democratic Governor Wes Moore about that.
Also ahead, President Trump and Vladimir Putin are set to speak by phone tomorrow about Ukraine, according to the president dividing up certain assets, in his words. Our Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow tonight with new details.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:23]
COOPER: Republican struggles on tariffs, the economy, and other issues have not benefited Democrats. A new CNN poll shows that while only 36 percent rate Republicans favorably, Democrats are at 29 percent. That's also more than half of American voters. 51 percent now call the Democratic Party's views too extreme.
Tonight, I spoke with Democratic Governor of Maryland Wes Moore about the state of the party.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Governor, I want to talk to you about what's going on in Maryland, specifically regarding federal workers. But, first, I want to talk about the Democratic Party. Is the Democratic Party doing an effective job right now? Because clearly there's a rift within the party, and there's this looming question about whether Democrats are accomplishing much, if anything, whether it's effectively pushing back on Republicans or advocating for your own priorities.
GOV. WES MOORE (D-MD): I think the answer is not about how do you change a message. The answer is about results. And that's why people really want to see results. Look at what's happening in the states. Look what's happening in the state of Maryland, where just earlier today, we just got our jobs numbers back.
And we have added more jobs in two years than the previous governor added in eight years, that we are now watching the most significant drop in violent crime that we have seen in our state's history. The last time the homicide rate was this low in Baltimore City, I was not born yet. So we are actually doing things that's making people's lives better.
We're bringing down prescription drug costs. We're actually focusing on building housing and building more housing inventory that's bringing the cost of housing down. We're actually -- we've raised the minimum wage and making it easier for people to have money in their pockets and keep money inside of their pockets.
So I really think the answer is not necessarily what's our message or what are we saying or what one line we're using, but are you able to deliver results that people see and recognize in their own lives? And that's why I think we've been able to consistently do well within our state.
COOPER: I know, obviously, you're Governor of Maryland, but you look and see what's happening in Congress. Do you think Democrats in Congress are effective in doing what you just said? I mean, Senate Minority Leader Schumer had to cancel, I know, appearances on his book tour because of what he said are security concerns, but, you know, he's aided Republicans in preventing a government shutdown last week.
Should he have done that? Do you think Schumer should remain in his post?
MOORE: I think people needed to be able to articulate why a government shutdown would have been so destructive. And let's be clear, a federal government shutdown would have been destructive to the state of Maryland. It would have definitely pushed us into a national recession.
It would have absolutely threatened the credit, the creditworthiness of the United States, and also then turned around and impacted the -- in the creditworthiness of our individual states. And it would have laid off or furloughed thousands of people.
[20:40:04]
COOPER: How have the actions of the DOGE team and the president's executive order industry shrinking the size of government, how has that affected your state?
MOORE: What DOGE is doing has been disastrous, where there's just been these arbitrary firings of thousands of Marylanders, the attempted shuttering of entire agencies, and by the way, with no transparency and no data to reinforce what they're doing. And the really frustrating thing about it is this, is that if you're saying we believe in efficiency, well, guess what? So do we.
And that's why one of the first people that I hired when I became the governor was the chief performance officer, who's been focusing on things like making sure that we can have consolidation of our fleet management and tech consolidation, and having a real look at our real estate and saying which buildings does the state of Maryland own that we shouldn't necessarily own, or looking at procurement reform.
So we have saved the people of our state tens of millions of dollars by being efficient. The difference is, is that we are being transparent about it, we are being humane about it, and we're being data-driven about it. All things that DOGE has not done in the way they have just wreaked havoc on our federal government, and they've done it in a way that is not actually focusing on making things more efficient, they've done it because it's an ideology. And that is what's so dangerous about this.
The latest CNN poll shows that, like, 57 percent of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents think the party should work to stop the Republican agenda rather than work with Republicans to get Democratic ideas into legislation. It's a big difference from what was on 2017, when only 23 percent said the same.
Does that make sense to you? I mean, that there shouldn't be room for bipartisanship or compromise? Where do you stand?
MOORE: Well, there should always be room to work with people who you believe want to work with you. But, you know, I say, and I believe in deeply, I will work with anybody, but I will bow down to nobody. That I will absolutely work with anybody who has the best interest of the people of my state in mind, people who we are going to work together.
But I will never turn around and kowtow to somebody who is -- who does not have the best interest and is not willing to be a partner inside this work.
COOPER: Governor Wes Moore, appreciate your time. Thank you.
MOORE: Thank you so much, Anderson.
COOPER: Coming up, President Trump and Russia's Vladimir Putin scheduled to speak by phone tomorrow about Ukraine. Our Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow tonight with the latest on that.
And Voice of America and other federally funded news outlets around the world are targeted as the Trump administration continues to shrink agencies. How the move could hinder pro-democracy efforts overseas. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:20]
COOPER: President Trump and Vladimir Putin are set to talk on the phone tomorrow about U.S. efforts to end the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Here's what the president told reporters this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to have a very important call. You know, we've had calls, but we're getting down to a very critical stage. And we want to get the whole Russia- Ukraine thing done. And I think Ukraine wants it. I know they want it. Everybody wants it.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Last night, President Trump said that a lot of work was done over the weekend, those were his words. As you likely know, just last week, Ukraine said it would support a U.S.-proposed 30-day ceasefire. Here's Fred Pleitgen with what's being said in Russia.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Excitement on Russian state TV. The leading talk show previewing President Trump's latest diplomatic advances towards Russian leader Vladimir Putin. The pace of negotiations between Moscow and Washington has accelerated, the anchor says. Tomorrow, there will be a phone conversation between Putin and Trump. The U.S. president announced a new call to the Kremlin.
As the unrelenting battles continue on the ground, the White House claims it's making progress towards a possible ceasefire. With the Ukrainians already on board, President Trump now trying to convince Putin to sign off as well, even as the Russian leader says many issues still need to be sorted out.
TRUMP: We'll be talking about land, we'll be talking about power plants. That's a -- you know, it's a big question. But I think we have a lot of it already discussed very much by both sides --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You'll ask --
TRUMP: -- Ukraine and Russia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're already talking about that. Dividing up certain assets.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Dividing up assets between Ukraine and Russia, while Moscow's forces are seemingly on the brink of ousting Ukrainian troops from their shrinking foothold in Russia's Kursk region, soldiers collecting war trophies after hard-fought battles.
The Russians say they're also pressing on various other front lines, and they don't want to give any of that territory back to Kyiv. Moscow also giving a big nyet to the idea of putting European NATO troops on the ground in Ukraine as peacekeepers. The Kremlin lashing out at the notion.
DMITRY PESKOV, KREMLIN SPOKESMAN (through translation): We are talking about the fact that viable regulation is only possible by taking into account and solving the root causes of the problems associated with Ukraine, and they are going to create additional root causes.
[20:50:05]
PLEITGEN (voice-over): But on Moscow streets, optimism that an end to the war may be in sight brokered by the U.S. president.
PLEITGEN: Do you think that progress is possible in this phone call? To end the war in Ukraine?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think progress will be definitely.
PLEITGEN: Definitely? Why do you think so? You're very optimistic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
PLEITGEN: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I love my life. I love my country, and I think all this will be good for our country. PLEITGEN (voice-over): But the Kremlin has cautions. Diplomacy is still in its early stages, and many hurdles will have to be overcome to silence the guns on the battlefield.
PLEITGEN: And Anderson, tonight the Kremlin saying that the call between Vladimir Putin and President Trump only took a few days to set up because both sides felt it was that important. Also acknowledging that Putin is already diligently preparing for that call, having talking points prepared with Russia's positions on the Ukraine conflict. Anderson?
COOPER: Fred Pleitgen, thanks so much.
Next, the legendary Voice of America is silenced. President Trump dismantling the federally funded media organization and others that give news to people all over the world, news often their leaders don't want them to hear. More on that in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:59]
COOPER: More breaking news now. Israel says it is conducting, quote, "extensive strikes" against Hamas in Gaza. This is efforts to extend the ceasefire and free more hostages who are already stuck. The IDF and Israeli security agencies say they are, quote, "Currently conducting extensive strikes on terror targets belonging to the Hamas terrorist organization in the Gaza Strip".
The civil defense in Gaza says a number of people were trapped under the rubble of homes that were bombed in various areas of the enclave. We'll have more of this throughout the evening.
President Trump has gutted the federally funded media outlet Voice of America and others run by its parent agency, like Radio Free Asia and Radio Free Europe. On Saturday, virtually the entire staff of 1,300 were being put on leave. Now some listeners around the world say they only hear music.
More now on the history of Voice of America and why it was once considered so important. Kayla Tausche joins us.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the Voice first went on the air 45 years ago, the announcer said, the news may be good or bad, we shall tell you the truth.
KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chartered by the U.S. to combat misinformation during World War II, Voice of America first broadcast from New York into Nazi Germany in 1942.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language)
TAUSCHE (voice-over): Long seen as a way to promote America's interests and ideals overseas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Providing reliable, uncensored information is an important part of our country's diplomacy.
TAUSCHE (voice-over): VOA and its affiliates transmit history-making moments to citizens whose governments are limiting their information.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language)
TAUSCHE (voice-over): In 1986, Voice of America broke the news of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster to millions behind the Iron Curtain, despite Soviet efforts to block the news.
OKSANA DRAGAN, CHIEF OF UKRAINIAN BUREAU, VOA: Despite the heavy jamming, we are definitely heard.
TAUSCHE (voice-over): Even today, the U.S. agency for global media says 10 million Ukrainians listen regularly, 10 million in Russia, two-thirds of all Afghans, at least 427 million listeners around the world. And nearly nine out of 10 weekly listeners say they believe the information is trustworthy. Three out of four say it informs their decisions.
JODIE GINSBERG, CEO, COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS: This isn't just a risk to those individuals who will now lose information about their countries, individuals in Russia or Belarus or Cuba. It's a risk to the U.S. national security because it creates an environment in which mis and disinformation, lies and propaganda from autocrats around the world can flourish. And that puts America and American security at risk. So in the long run, America and Americans lose.
TAUSCHE (voice-over): Trump believes that coverage is propaganda, dialing up his distrust in an agency he's attacked for years.
TRUMP: If you heard what's coming out of the Voice of America, it's disgusting. What things they say are disgusting toward our country.
TAUSCHE (voice-over): In his first term, Trump's former chief of the U.S. agency for global media purged division heads and, in 2020, accused the VOA of airing pro-Biden content to sway Muslim voters. The group's senior adviser now is Trump loyalist Kari Lake.
KARI LAKE, POLITICIAN: We are fighting an information war and there's no better weapon than the truth. And I believe VOA can be that weapon.
TAUSCHE (voice-over): Now citing the group's perceived partisanship, Trump has ordered it to be reduced to, quote, "the minimum presence and function required by law". But VOA's broad mandate may complicate what that means.
HADAS GOLD, CNN SENIOR MEDICA CORRESPONDENT: When you look at the original charter of Voice of America, which was written decades ago, it talks about the need to communicate with the rest of the world. Many of these stations have been broadcasting just music. Voice of America hasn't published anything online in several days. So even if you're going on the broad outlines of this original charter, they are not upholding that in the last few days by not publishing or broadcasting anything.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: And Kayla Tausche joins us now. So what's next for the journalists who are stationed in countries around the world?
TAUSCHE (on-camera): Well, Anderson, without staff and more clarity, these outlets have largely gone quiet. Leaders from the National Press Club and the Committee to Protect Journalists are urging lawmakers to restore funding and allow Voice of America and its affiliates to continue their mission. They're reporting in 49 languages across 75 countries, in many cases, areas where free press is not welcome.
Jodie Ginsberg, the CEO of CPJ, tells me there are at least five journalists employed by the U.S. Agency for Global Media who are currently imprisoned for their work, their fates unclear. Anderson?
COOPER: Kayla Tausche, thanks very much.
That's it for us. The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
