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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Pentagon Press Secretary: DoD "Pleased by the Rapid Compliance" in Removing DEI Content from Websites; Michael Lewis Discusses New Book on Federal Workforce; Disturbing Attacks on Teslas in Las Vegas; Several Teslas Torched in Las Vegas as Attacks on Carmaker Owned by Elon Musk Continue Across U.S.; Tesla Removed From Major International Auto Show Over Safety Concerns; NY Times Reports DOGE Reverses Move That Made Its Claims Nearly Impossible to Check; March Madness Begins Tomorrow. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired March 19, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ... optimism about this peace process? And he said to return all the prisoners of war.

Clarissa Ward, CNN, Chernihiv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Just incredible to see and imagine. Thanks for joining us.

AC360 with Anderson begins right now.

[20:00:20]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, the Pentagon purge of references to Black service members, gay service members rolls on and now CNN has found it includes removing articles about the Holocaust, sexual assault, and even suicide prevention.

Also, as one agency sues to stop Elon Musk's DOGE from dismantling it, acclaimed writer, Michael Lewis joins us to talk about DOGE and what Lewis found researching some of the people working for the federal government whose jobs may be eliminated.

And more disturbing attacks on Teslas, the latest in Las Vegas and other locations.

Good evening, a lot to get to tonight. We begin with breaking news in a story we've been covering for weeks now, the purging by the Pentagon of mentions or photographs or videos that appear to, in their words, promote diversity, equity and inclusion.

It's tied to that executive order from President Trump signed on day one of his second term, banning DEI and a subsequent order by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. A database obtained by CNN shows that more than 24,000 articles could be, or already have been purged, dozens of which have no connection to DEI programs.

But they do mention Black veterans or female soldiers, or Holocaust remembrance, sexual assault and as I said, suicide prevention.

This article, for instance, was removed from the Air Force website. It's about a holocaust survivor named Katie Sachs, who was born in Vienna, Austria, 27 members of her family were killed in the Holocaust.

In the article, she is quoted as saying, "It is easier to hate people than to love people when you don't understand people, then it creates hatred. So, I survived hatred." She also said, "I think the Holocaust should never be forgotten." Well, that article is now gone. We can only see it through an archive of deleted pages. This is what it looks like now when you try to find it on the Air Force website. It says "Page Not Found."

Then there's this article. It's about an Air Force Academy cadet who visited several concentration camps and said, "To prevent another holocaust, we all need to stand up against hate." That article is also deleted. About a half dozen, in fact Holocaust related articles are gone.

Several articles about sexual assault as well deleted, like this one highlighting April as Sexual Assault Awareness Month and includes best practices for Air Force personnel. "Airmen beginning with commanders and senior leadership must understand their duties to safely intervene and prevent sexual assault."

According to a Pentagon report, 7,266 service members reported sexual assaults and roughly 29,061 service members experienced unwanted sexual contact in 2023, the latest year those figures are available. But now, talking about it apparently is something that gets eliminated.

Another major issue facing the military is mental health and suicide prevention, but a number of articles related to that have also been scrubbed, like this one on suicide prevention resources that can help. Now, why would that be banned? Well, we can't say for sure, but if you scroll down in the article, there is a specific section about LGBTQ+ community saying, "It's been shown that the LGBTQ+ community can feel a greater sense of isolation than other colleagues and family members, and may have increased risk of suicidal thoughts."

When contacted by CNN about these deleted articles, the Pentagon said in a statement that the Defense Department was, "Pleased by the rapid compliance of removing DEI content from all platforms" and went on to say, "In the rare cases that content is removed either deliberately or by mistake, that is out of the clearly outlined scope of the directive, we instruct the components and they correct the content so it recognizes our heroes for their dedicated service alongside their fellow Americans."

Now, this latest CNN reporting comes after weeks of CNN and other media organizations finding extreme examples of this so-called rapid compliance, like the website for Arlington National Cemetery, removing a section honoring Black Americans who fought in the nation's wars and are buried there, like Civil Rights icon, Medgar Evers, who enlisted in the army in World War Two, was later assassinated by a White supremacist in 1963.

Some web pages about the Tuskegee Airmen, the first group of Black aviators in the U.S. Armed Forces who fought racism and segregation within the military while also fighting the axis powers to win World War II, gone from the DoD website are articles like this about the famed Navajo and other Native American code talkers who helped win both the Second World War and the First, all apparently removed to satisfy someone's definition of this anti-DEI mandate from the Trump administration.

For more on what the administration is saying about all this, I want to bring in CNN Pentagon correspondent Oren Liebermann. So what more do we know about this, this latest purge? Are they actually correcting these things?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: So, at least the websites we have looked at have not been corrected or restored, at least not yet. Certainly based on their statement, it is possible they do that, although it's worth noting the statement talks about restoring and recognizing the pages of heroes. And for what we were looking at that doesn't quite fall into that category. So, we'll see how they handle this.

[20:05:17]

Now, we went through parts of perhaps a lot of the more than 24,000 links across more than a thousand different sites within the Defense Department searching for keywords. For example, we found pages that were either removed or set to be removed about 9/11 survivors, about the Holocaust, as you pointed out, many of these, in removing them, had had the letters DEI added to their URL. And then all you found was that "404 Page Not Found" that you showed just a moment ago, and then you'd have to go to something like an internet archive to look at the actual website.

And in a lot of cases, of course, the question was, why on Earth was this removed? For example, on one of the Holocaust remembrance sites that we had found, it said that the Holocaust was, "The state sponsored systemic persecution and annihilation of European jury." Why that was removed, why that was slated for deletion. That, of course, is an open question. We'll keep an eye on this to see if at some point they bring this back.

It is worth noting this was an automated process to try to go through all of the Defense Department websites as quickly as possible.

It was effectively, one official told us, the only possible way to do this, given the rapid deadline that the military had been given and it caught up a tremendous amount of content that simply has nothing to do with DEI. And though it might have been easy, Anderson, to remove all of that. Now, going through it and putting it back is a much harder process. And I do want to credit my colleague, Natasha Bertrand, with some of the excellent reporting that we found here. COOPER: I mean, a remarkable reporting, it's a lot of a lot of work to

do this. I mean, what are you hearing? Is this like just somebody putting in the keyword Black or gay or -- I don't know why holocaust would be suddenly labeled DEI?

LIEBERMANN: It might be some other word that was in the article, but in scanning it, it was simply about a Holocaust survivor. Yet, there may have been some word, as you point out, Black, pride, gay, Hispanic that was flagged somewhere in the article that --

COOPER: So, is Black history month -- Black History Month is that -- I mean, Trump had a Black History Month event in the White House, but at the Pentagon is that now, that's forbidden?

LIEBERMANN: Absolutely, and we queried the Pentagon. The White House is recognizing Black History Month. Does that still remain forbidden by the Pentagon? And the Pentagon's answer was, effectively, the White House can answer their questions. We're sticking by our guidance, which was the end of any sort of remembrance month, including Black History Month.

So, at least as of the guidance we've been given from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, that is still forbidden. At least some defense officials are recognizing the damage here, even as the Pentagon officially says we are pleased with the rate at which this is going and will correct any of the any mistakes made effectively.

One Defense official told us there's a high level of irresponsible collateral damage, and there is an effort to try to sort of figure out how to do this in a better way.

COOPER: I mean, are they going to start just referring to the Tuskegee Airmen as the Tuskegee Airmen and not like, say, they're Black? Or is that -- is it clear how they're going to handle the acknowledgment of, you know, segregation in the military, the racism Black service members faced and yet served anyway, honorably.

LIEBERMANN: It is -- look, it's very possible that they do that. And I'll give you a specific example. Colin Powell's page at Arlington National Cemetery, the first Black Secretary of State, the first Black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He is now no longer under Black service members buried at Arlington National Cemetery. That categorization is gone. He is now just under people buried at Arlington National Cemetery who played roles in politics and government. There is no reference at all to him being Black.

COOPER: So, it used to be if you wanted to go to Arlington and visit the graves of Black service members or high profile Black Americans who served, there was a part of a website that would help you do that, that no longer exists?

LIEBERMANN: Yes, those walking tours where you could where you could look up Black history at Arlington National Cemetery, women's history, or other sort of categories of history that that touch on or are minority history, those websites, those walking tours are at least from what we can see, no longer there. In terms of recognizing each individual service member, Arlington is

quick to point out that that they are recognized. But how they are recognized strips them, frankly, of their ethnicity if they're a minority.

COOPER: Oren Liebermann, thank you very much. Joining me now is veteran and former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, also a former Democratic Congressman Mondaire Jones.

Congressman Kinzinger, I mean, does this make any sense to you?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I mean, look, when you talk about somebody specifically being Black in the military, all we have to do is look at history, the things these people had to overcome when Black people weren't welcomed or they were segregated, or we talk about gay and lesbian people.

It's important to show people that have overcome things that other people haven't had to overcome. I mean, look, DEI in the military -- let me be very clear about something, if you're White and you want to join the military, you're welcome to join the military. They're not saying that White people can't join. Yes, to an extent. Some things needed to be rightsized.

[20:10:19]

You know, every time there was a national news story about something, a new computer based training would pop up for service members, and you know that -- some of that got out of control. That's different than whitewashing history and they're spending all this time whitewashing history, Anderson. And meanwhile, Russia has struck two hospitals since the so-called ceasefire. There's been a deletion of tracking of kidnapped Ukrainian children by Russia and they've also stopped countering Russia in places like Africa.

I mean, get your priorities right. It's not whitewashing history. It's actually fighting America's enemies. And they seem to have their priorities all wrong.

COOPER: Congressman Jones, what do you think the goal here is with all this purging?

MONDAIRE JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, so, it turns out that when you erase the history of discrimination or oppression of a people, it makes it easier to repeat that same history. That is what happens in other societies, as we've seen, the rise of autocracies elsewhere. This is really scary stuff, and I'm grateful that people are realizing that this assault on so-called DEI is really a very, very thinly veiled effort to unravel the Civil Rights achievements of the past several generations in this country.

I mean, it's why you see this President repealing executive orders from the 1960s, which were intended to advance Civil Rights. I mean, DEI itself was only something that was invented a couple of years ago. And so, clearly it's not about DEI, it's about Civil Rights, civil liberties and erasing uncomfortable truths about our Nation's history so as to lay the foundation to repeat some of those same mistakes, sadly.

COOPER: It is remarkable. I mean, Congressman Kinzinger, to think that, you know, a kid who's interested in joining the military is going to find it harder to look up on a DoD website remarkable achievements by Black Americans or whatever group somebody is from or, you know, female service members. I mean, it's the strength of this country about -- that we right wrongs and that we correct injustices or try to at least and those aren't, you know, the horrible things that have happened to Americans from other Americans in the past, recognizing them is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength acknowledging it and correcting it.

KINZINGER: And if we want to be a colorblind society, or we want to be a society that looks beyond who you love, then it's important to look back at the challenges people have had to overcome.

I mean, in school, we teach stories of people that have overcome challenges to do good things. I would say joining the military is a good thing. You think of the Tuskegee Airmen, personal heroes of mine as pilots. They basically were told that they couldn't even fly airplanes -- Black men could not fly airplanes. They went and showed not just that they could fly them. They were one of the best performing fighter wings in the in the whole of World War II.

It is important for a young Black male, particularly or female, in the in a challenging circumstance today that may think that they don't have any hope to see that story and say I too could go fly for the United States Air Force, or I could fly for United Airlines. And, you know, they've been attacking some of these airlines' DEI programs. This is about showing people that may think they don't have an opportunity or may think they don't qualify. And saying, look, people have overcome some of the same challenges you have and you can, too.

We should be celebrating that, Anderson, not spending staff time looking through and trying to hunt down the word Black or gay or woman or whatever.

COOPER: Well, also, Congressman Jones, if you suddenly label the Tuskegee Airmen, you know, something like DEI, its implying that somehow they were given, you know, planes to fly and were incompetent and but they were Black and so, they were just given planes. I mean, I use the word insane last night, it's ludicrous. I mean, it's offensive, it's very disturbing.

JONES: Yes, it is all of those things and so much more that I can't say on television.

Look, this is to some extent what we warn the country would happen if these people returned to the White House and that is exactly what we are seeing.

And so, you know, I'm grateful that were being vigilant. And I think it's just so important that as this administration offers, you know, pretext and gaslights as to why things are the way they are, you know, in this case, saying that, oh, they were mistaken when they removed all of this stuff that we push back on that because this was obviously intentional.

[20:15:21]

The alternative is that people are just awfully incompetent at the Department of Defense. It's probably a little bit of that, too, but I think it's more about making sure that anything that this administration identifies as woke is utterly removed from the pages of history so that we trend more in the direction of what Stephen Miller and other folks want us to be as a society and that's a really scary place.

COOPER: I appreciate both of you being with us. Thank you.

Coming up next, the legal action being taken by an organization called the U.S. Institute of Peace after DOGE personnel gained access to their headquarters.

I'll talk with writer Michael Lewis.

Also tonight, more attacks targeting Tesla vehicles and charging stations, and protests of Elon Musk and his efforts to shrink the government. These are really disturbing attacks. We're seeing Attorney General, Pam Bondi calling the attacks domestic terrorism, the warning she has for those who are convicted, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:40]

COOPER: A nonpartisan, independent agency called the U.S. Institute of Peace that promotes conflict resolution around the world is suing the Trump administration after a sudden takeover by Elon Musk's DOGE team. The institute is not a federal agency. It was created by Congress and is funded by Congress, and it owns and manages its own headquarters. But DOGE personnel gained access to the Institute after being turned away once on Monday, then returning with D.C. Police officers. It's all part of the effort, the administration claims to root out waste, fraud and abuse.

Author and journalist Michael Lewis, who's written bestsellers like "Liar's Poker," "Moneyball," and "The Big Short," has a new book out profiling people who work in the federal government. He began the book long before President Trump took office. It's very timely. It counters some of the stereotypes were hearing about federal workers. It's called "Who is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service."

Michael, every book you write seems to be incredibly, impeccably timed. There's no way you could have known about DOGE and the what's going on with the efforts of Elon Musk. But you write in the book, you say there's a kind of bigotry about civil servants. And you went on to say there's the stereotype of the government worker we all have in our heads, this intractable picture of the nine to five are living off the taxpayer, who adds no value and has no energy, and somehow still subverts the public will. That's not what you found when you looked into the civil service. MICHAEL LEWIS, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST: No, in fact, it was -- and this

is why it first struck me as just this huge literary opportunity. Because when I started wandering around the departments no one pays attention to. In the first place, it was like Commerce and Energy and Agriculture. I was just shocked, not just by the caliber of the person, but by the quality of the character. Like people who were extremely mission driven, very knowledgeable, you know, devoted to public service, didn't think, you know, it was kind of great about them is they don't think of themselves as characters. They're horrible at telling their story.

And then they're also surrounded by a phalanx of, you know, political operatives who don't want them to tell their stories. But it was just like, I mean, it was character after character that you could write what felt like short stories about them. And so, it was -- there's just a disconnect. I mean, and I do think it's true that when people throw around insults about the federal bureaucrats, they're really revealing they don't know what goes on in the federal government.

It's just it is a mind-bendingly complicated place. It's doing lots of different things, some of them very well and some of them less well.

When you go in, one of the things you notice is how hard fraud would be to perpetrate. Waste is different. Waste is a little complicated, and there are all sorts of inefficiencies that are not really the fault of the workers, it is more the fault of the structure of the system. But like you can't take a federal worker to lunch and buy him a turkey sandwich. They just won't take the money. They are -- they are watched every which way. And they're just conditioned to be very, very careful about what they do financially.

And, you know, like if you said to me, Michael, you've got to go write a story about fraud, I would much rather go look for it in a private company. Much more likely to find it. --

COOPER: Do you think it's easier to find it in a private company than in the civil service?

LEWIS: Oh, yes. I mean, I worked on Wall Street and, you know, a million things happen every day in a Wall Street firm that if it happened in the civil service, it would be a scandal. The people there permanently are constantly sort of kind of jerry rigging, whatever they're doing in response to, I'll say, effectively a lack of an under-provision of resources.

You know, they're not getting new technology when they should get new technology. It's hard to hire new people. I mean, right now, I mean, it's really interesting. It's hard to get young people and the DOGE team, the first thing they did was basically fire all the young people, all the people who had just been hired.

COOPER: Probationary employees, who were also employees who have gotten promotions. It's not just the newest employees. It's also people who got promotions and they're probationary in their new jobs.

LEWIS: That's right, and it's people, if you think about it, who's hired in the last year, its either young people or it is people who've been hired very specifically for a job of the moment that needs to be done now. So in some ways, it's maybe some of the more critical people.

The bigger point is like, I don't think anybody in the private sector would walk into a big institution and think that -- and behave the way DOGE is behaving and think that was a smart way to run any institution, like vilifying the employees and making them feel terrified and scorned. Not actually bothering to figure out what the enterprise is doing, you know, firing people only to have to rehire them because you realize you made a mistake insulting them every day.

I mean, it's just like, I don't think any, like, corporate CEO would think that was wise. And the only example I can think of it in the private sector is when Elon Musk went into Twitter, and that hasn't worked out so great.

[20:25:40]

COOPER: Given the amount of time you kind of spent poking around in the federal bureaucracy in different departments, Commerce Department and elsewhere, is there any way that Elon Musk and the team from DOGE in the time that they had, could actually root out, like what -- and figure out what employees were doing a good job, what employees were doing -- I mean, do you think any of these firings is really based on the actions of these employees?

LEWIS: No, I think they're saying they're doing one thing, but they're actually doing another. And there are all kinds of tells, like when you say you're going in to find fraud, the last thing you do is fire the inspector general of whatever agency there is. They're the cops on the beat who report to Congress. They're the ones who know the most about where fraud might be.

They're doing exactly the sort of thing you would do if you were trying to introduce fraud.

COOPER: You wrote two of the pieces in the book. There's a number of other writers who profiled other public employees, federal workers. You profiled a former coal worker whose work prevented roof falls and coal mines, also an FDA worker who helped create Cure I.D., which is a database based database that lets doctors report novel uses of existing drugs to treat rare infectious diseases.

The people profiled in your book, many of whom will work for the federal government for a long time and doing really extraordinary things. Have they been or have any of them been fired yet, or they expect to be?

LEWIS: So, two have left, -- there are eight characters or teams that were profiled by me and six other writers? Two have left. The one I know that has just inexplicable damage done to the operation was there's a group inside the IRS that pursues cybercrime, and they return, you know, thousands of dollars for every dollar you spend on them. They've brought in billions of dollars from finding stashes of Bitcoin in the possession of criminals. They've broken up child sex trafficking rings. And that group has been gutted. The actual character in the book is still in the job, but his unit has been gutted. And it's just like, why? You know, it's actually -- its' a profit center.

COOPER: Why would you go after and fire people who are actually bringing in money to the federal government?

LEWIS: Well, the IRS, I think it's true that like every dollar you spend, you get $10.00 back and they're clearly very hostile towards the IRS.

COOPER: Yes, Michael, I wanted to ask you, and I hope it's okay. In 2021, you suffered a terrible loss. Your daughter, Dixie was killed in a car crash. How has grief been for you and for your wife, Tabitha?

LEWIS: You and I share this now as a subject. Were in a, you know, we're in a club that nobody wants to belong to, right? It's affected me in a lot of ways. I mean, not all negatively, you know, that it has made me, far more sort of attuned to what other people might be going through.

You know, you never know what's happened to someone. I feel like I've been given a kind of, a hall pass into the kingdom of grief, and I can wander around it.

I miss Dixie, I miss her every day. I think about her every day. And, you know, I write, I try to create things that give people pleasure first. And I'm going to try to do something about her soon. I think I've kind of started to process it to the point I can put some words to it that that might be useful.

COOPER: Well, Michael, thank you for talking to us. I really appreciate it. The new book is "Who is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service." Thanks so much for your time.

LEWIS: Good talking to you, Anderson.

COOPER: Well, coming up, more vandalism against Elon Musk's electric vehicle company, Tesla. The Attorney General calling it domestic terrorism.

Also tonight, a new report on the reversal being made by Musk's DOGE after it got called out for questionable receipts about what they said were savings ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:34:20]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST OF "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Several Teslas were deliberately torched outside a repair shop in Las Vegas this week. It's the latest in a string of attacks that have targeted Tesla showrooms, charging stations, and vehicles across the U.S. The Trump administration, Elon Musk have strongly condemned the attacks. Our Josh Campbell has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New Tesla safety concerns after another violent act of vandalism against the company.

DORI KOREN, ASSISTANT SHERIFF, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: This was a targeted attack against a Tesla facility.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): The most recent happening Tuesday in Las Vegas. Police say a person dressed in black shot and set fire to several Tesla vehicles at a repair facility. The word 'resist' was spray painted on the building.

[20:35:00]

The FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force is now conducting an investigation in order to identify the suspect and a motive.

SPENCER EVANS, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FBI LAS VEGAS: Violent acts like this are unacceptable regardless of where they occur. And specifically to those who might think that something like this is justifiable or potentially even admirable, we want to let you know it's a federal crime. We will come after you, we will find you and prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): Attorney General Pam Bondi saying in a statement that the recent attacks on Tesla property are "domestic terrorism" and said the government will continue investigations that impose severe consequences on those involved. The Las Vegas incident comes after several other vandalism incidents in the recent months involving Tesla vehicles, facilities, and charging stations.

Justice Department officials announced just days ago that 24-year-old Daniel Clarke-Pounder has been arrested in connection with a Molotov cocktail attack on a Tesla charging station in South Carolina. CNN has reached out to his attorney for comment. If convicted, he faces up to 20 years in federal prison.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sell your car, don't buy Tesla.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): Protests in several U.S. cities against Musk and his growing influence in the Trump administration erupted over the weekend. Many calling for an end to the Department of Government Efficiency or DOGE, which is cutting tens of thousands of federal jobs.

MARK NAY, PROTESTING TESLA: Elon Musk is destroying our government. Nobody elected him. The Senate never confirmed him.

CAMPBELL (voice-over): Along with working for President Trump, Musk has aligned himself in far-right wing political movements, policies and administrations across the globe, most notably supporting Germany's far-right party, the Alternative for Germany or AfD. The tech billionaire saying on Fox, he's shocked Tesla is being targeted.

ELON MUSK, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER OF TESLA: Tesla a peaceful company. We've never done anything harmful. I've never done anything awful. There's some kind of mental illness thing going on here because this doesn't make any sense.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMPBELL (on camera): Now, Anderson, in addition to damage to individual vehicles, we're learning of a possible threat to the Tesla brand itself. For example, this major international auto show in Vancouver just announced today that they have removed the Tesla display there. After all of these events, incidents surrounding Tesla, they say that the safety of their attendees is paramount. Anderson?

COOPER: Yeah, Josh Campbell, thanks very much. Meanwhile, The New York Times is continuing their extensive reporting on the claims made by Elon Musk's DOGE team. Last week, The Times notice the DOGE team was suddenly making it nearly impossible to fact-check some of their claims about cuts they've made. They changed the way they list those claims of -- the claims of savings. This came after DOGE was called out over a series of major errors or false claims they posted about savings they achieved from canceling federal grants.

Now, The Times reports they have stopped hiding it the way they were. With me now is New York Times Investigative Reporter, David Fahrenthold, who shares a byline of the story and has led the charge on calling out those errors. So, how has DOGE now reversed course on what they post on the so-called wall of receipts?

DAVID FAHRENTHOLD, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: Well, as you've said, this wall of receipts is basically the only place where DOGE is showing its work, where it says, look, this is what we've cut and here's how much we've saved by cutting it. And after we and other people -- other folks pointed out major errors in those -- in those claims, they started posting new ones about the federal grants they had cut.

But this time, they didn't give you any information that would allow you or any -- me or anybody else to fact-check what they'd said. It was just here's the number we saved, here's the department we saved it from, no other details. We wrote about that last week. A week later, this week, they've reversed course and I think this is a good move. Started posting all the details about these grants. When they say they've cut something and they've saved this much, they're going to give you the information that allows somebody else to fact-check it.

COOPER: So, have you seen -- are they being accurate now with the new information they're putting up?

FAHRENTHOLD: No.

(LAUGH)

FAHRENTHOLD: The number one largest grant on that list, and we can see this for sure now, now that they've put the details back in, is wrong. They say that they cut a particular grant to a vaccine non-profit and in doing so, they saved $1.75 billion, which is a large number. When we talked to that non-profit, they said that was wrong twice over. Number one, the contract hasn't been canceled. And number two, even if it was, all the money has already even paid. So, canceling it right now would not save $1.75 billion. It would save nothing.

COOPER: You reported that the White House backed DOGE's initial move to make claims nearly impossible to fact-check, saying it was done for security purposes. How would posting the data on their cuts, whether it's factual or not, be a security risk? And if it was for security purposes, why backtrack now?

FAHRENTHOLD: That's really unclear. There was -- the data they'd be posting is data that's available elsewhere already in federal contracting databases. The details of who gets a federal contract or a federal grant is already public. And you're right, if it was unsafe to post it last week, why post it now this week? We've asked them that question and haven't gotten a response.

COOPER: You also make the point that that whether or not people support DOGE's, you know, mission to root out waste in the government, nobody benefits since DOGE is using bad data. How is the error-filled data actually making it harder to find real waste or fraud?

[20:40:00]

FAHRENTHOLD: I think it's a really important point, Anderson. I get this from readers a lot. They say, well, you know, why are you writing about the mistakes DOGE is making? Do you want them to fail? Don't you want them to cut waste and fraud? And what I always say to them is, nobody benefits. Whether you like DOGE or don't like DOGE, nobody benefits if they don't have the right numbers. Nobody benefits if they don't know what they're looking for.

The things they're trying to find, waste and fraud are hard to find. Michael Lewis was talking about this. They're hard to find on purpose. If they were easy to find, somebody who would've found them a long time ago. So if what DOGE is doing now and the errors they're making show us that they're not catching the obvious things, they're not -- they're not noticing obvious things about federal data, what kind of confidence does that give us that they're going to go out and find this waste and fraud that nobody has found before?

COOPER: Yeah. David Fahrenthold, again, I appreciate all your reporting and your colleagues there at the Times. Thank you.

Coming up next, CNN's Kyung Lah speaks for the widow of a U.S. veteran who died by suicide. The way she sees it, there's no doubt her husband's suicide was linked to his time in the army. The VA, however, has denied the death benefits she believes she and her kids are entitled to and she's not alone. A CNN Investigation ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:45]

COOPER: A CNN Investigation has found the Department of Veterans Affair has denied crucial benefits to hundreds of families of veterans who died by suicide after being discharged from active duty. Families left to pick up the pieces without the financial assistance they think the VA owes them for what they say are service-related deaths. Now, the VA requires that families prove the death of their loved one stemmed from their time in the military. But as CNN's Kyung Lah discovered, even with evidence, some families have their claims denied.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EMILY EVANS, SURVIVING SPOUSE: I feel stuck. We're stuck and the VA is keeping us there.

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Emily Evans can't move forward.

LAH: And your kids?

E. EVANS: Stuck. Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes it feel like he's almost still here but just in a different way.

LAH (voice-over): Four children and their mother suspended in time, trapped in loss and bureaucratic battles with the very Agency dedicated to care for the soldier's family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love Daddy so much that if I don't have his baby blanket, I'll get nightmares.

SGT. MICHAEL EVANS, DECEASED ARMY VETERAN: Morning love, got me some coffee?

LAH (voice-over): Her father was Army Sergeant Michael Evans, an infantryman who deployed to Iraq twice, surviving more than two years of some of the war's worst combat, suffering traumatic brain injury from multiple IEDs.

(LAUGH)

E. EVANS: It's not bad.

M. EVANS: It's not bad?

LAH (voice-over): Once home, a full life appeared to resume, but the war never left him.

E. EVANS: He came in the house one day, he stood -- he stood right here. He just wanted to be held. And it was like his demons were standing right here in the room and I was trying to pull him back, and that was probably three days before he just snapped.

LAH (voice-over): Evans says her husband descended into a months-long depressive crisis, straining their marriage and family.

LAH: That began five months of his decline?

E. EVANS: Horror. LAH: Horror?

E. EVANS: Yeah.

LAH: When you describe it as horror, like could you --

E. EVANS: A complete shift. He stopped taking care of himself. He was paranoid, he was hyper alert, stressed, panicky, stopped laughing, stopped being silly. He almost stopped being a dad. I mean, he was just gone. He just got worse every day and he couldn't take it anymore.

LAH (voice-over): Two years ago, Michael Evans died by suicide.

LAH: After Michael passed, did you reach out to the VA? Did you file a benefits claim?

E. EVANS: They eventually sent a letter and they decided that Michael's PTSD was not significant and that the reason he died by suicide was because he was having increased stress at work and going through a divorce, which was just all part of this crisis.

LAH (voice-over): The VA denied her request for death benefits, a monthly payment to family members after a service-related death.

LAH: Positive for PTSD, positive for depression. These are the VA's --

E. EVANS: These are the VA's --

LAH: Own tests. Own doctors.

E. EVANS: Own documents. It's all PTSD. It's all his service. It's all from combat.

LAH (voice-over): A CNN Investigation found the VA denied crucial benefits to hundreds of families of veterans who died by suicide. We counted nearly 500 cases, but that's likely just a fraction of the total number. The VA says it doesn't track how many suicide-related claims it processes. So exactly how many families have been denied remains unknown and many veterans are reluctant to seek help. It's up to survivors to prove their loved ones suffered from PTSD.

LINDA GOULDING, SURVIVING SPOUSE: I would not wish these last nine years on my worst enemy.

[20:50:00]

This is everything that I had given to the VA.

LAH (voice-over): Linda Goulding is a widow who was denied and appealed. Goulding submitted to the VA doctor's reports and a letter from her husband.

GOULDING: And it started out that it had started on this day and it will end on this day.

LAH (voice-over): That day marked 40 years that Goulding's husband James had left Vietnam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want? Do you want a --

LAH (voice-over): Even as a loving grandfather, Goulding carried the weight of his Marine Corps battalion known as 'The Walking Dead.' It suffered one of the highest casualty rates of the war. On that 40-year anniversary, he threatened to end his own life. His wife called police.

GOULDING: They banged on the door. They called out his name, and when they went in, they heard a shot and then a thud.

LAH: When you went to the VA, what did the VA say?

GOULDING: I had to prove that he had PTSD.

LAH (voice-over): Proving it took her nine years. Our investigation found families like the Gouldings spent on average five-and-a-half years trying to win benefits. Many don't ever get them.

GOULDING: I want the VA to help the other people with more empathy, so other women would not have to do this ever, ever.

LAH (voice-over): Emily Evans is in the middle of her battle with the VA, haunted she says by promises not honored.

LAH: What would you like to tell the VA?

E. EVANS: I would like to see VA take responsibility for this. I would like to see them step up. My husband did not die in the war, but his mind did, and he deserves better. He deserved better, and he's not the only one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And Kyung Lah joins us now. Have you had any response from the VA?

LAH (on camera): Well, the VA did decline CNN's request for an on- camera interview, Anderson, but we did get this statement and it starts out, "VA is under new management, nodding at the change in administration, and said that the VA is working across the department to improve survivor programs so families can have the most supportive, convenient, and seamless experience possible in their time of grief."

I should mention, I did speak with Emily Evans today and she says that the VA is admitting that there was some sort of error in her case, so she's got to start all over. She's not sure if her case is going to resolve in months or years. Anderson?

COOPER: All right, we'll follow it. Kyung Lah, thanks very much.

A quick programming note. This weekend, Jake Tapper revisits the 1991 supreme court nomination of Clarence Thomas, which sparked such controversy when his former employee, Anita Hill, accused him of sexual harassment. She shared her allegations before the Senate Judiciary with her testimony capturing the nation's attention. The new episode of "United States of Scandal with Jake Tapper" airs Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, here on CNN. We'll be right back with more news ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:58:05]

COOPER: All right, I don't need to tell you, one of the most popular sporting events in America begins this week, the NCAA's men's and women's basketball tournaments, March Madness. The men's begins tomorrow, the women's Friday. Our Chief Data Analyst is all hopped up about it. Harry Enten joins us now. Let's start with men's basketball. How popular is it?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Well, first off, before we do that --

COOPER: Please.

ENTEN: We were talking beforehand.

COOPER: Thank you.

ENTEN: You know, I want you to feel at home in this segment.

COOPER: Yes, thank you.

ENTEN: So I got you a foam finger --

COOPER: Appreciate it.

ENTEN: -- to put on and you can put it on as I tell you about the men's tournament. Look, it's quite popular. How many people? There you go. Give a weight to the crowd. How many people watched the first round, the early afternoon games or the afternoon games last year? We're talking on average north of 7 million people. COOPER: Wow.

ENTEN: That's more than all but (ph) 15 primetime broadcast shows. How many brackets were filled out? Almost --

COOPER: 30 million people plus filled out a bracket?

ENTEN: At least -- at least 30 million brackets were filled out.

COOPER: Wow.

ENTEN: Some people like me might fill out a couple of brackets.

COOPER: I got an email asking me about my brackets today. I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

ENTEN: Well, we will figure out how to fill you out a little bit of a bracket going on.

COOPER: Why is it called March Madness?

ENTEN: Why is it called March Madness?

COOPER: Yeah.

ENTEN: Great question. Well, it's because of all the upsets happened. It is a great question.

COOPER: It's crazy. Oh, really? There are a lot of upsets.

ENTEN: Because there are a lot of --

COOPER: You can't predict March Madness?

ENTEN: You can't predict it. There are at least on average, at least eight upsets per year where the lower seed --

COOPER: Wow.

ENTEN: -- that's like five below, the upper seed ends up beating that upper seed. And more than that, I was interested to find out it was first coined or at least teamed up with college basketball back in 1982 by Brent Musburger, who of course you might remember as a big broadcaster with CBS.

COOPER: Yeah, of course. I hear you put together final four for me.

ENTEN: Yes. So, you know, we have done --

COOPER: In case I'm ever forced to put together a bracket.

ENTEN: If you're -- you were saying, you know, I heard that you were trying to put together a bracket earlier.

COOPER: No, I'm not trying. I just -- I would be incapable.

ENTEN: So I put one together for you, a final four. Look at these teams.

COOPER: Yeah.

ENTEN: I got Auburn, I got Alabama. I love the state of Alabama.

COOPER: Sure.

ENTEN: I got Houston, number one. I think they're going to go all the way. But I had to have the St. John's Red Storm as well.

COOPER: Yeah.

ENTEN: They are the hometown team. So I'm a big fan of theirs. Rick Pitino has really --

COOPER: (Inaudible) hometown?

ENTEN: It's our hometown, New York baby. COOPER: Sure, of course, I knew that.

ENTEN: Of course, you knew that. Yeah.

COOPER: Yeah, St. John's.

ENTEN: The Red Storm. Rick Pitino has really turned that program around.

COOPER: Totally.

ENTEN: So I think the Johnnies are going to do quite well.

COOPER: They're called the Johnnies?

ENTEN: The Saint -- yeah, St. John's. They are Johnnies.

COOPER: Oh, OK. All right. Cool

ENTEN: Yeah. That's the name --