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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Pope Leo XIV Celebrates First Mass As Pontiff; Interview With Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA); Pope Leo: Church Must Continue "Missionary Outreach" Where It Is "Desperately Needed"; Trump Administration Fires Librarian Of Congress; Pentagon Orders Military Academies To Review Books For Possible Removal; Victim In Road Rage Shooting "Talks" To His Killer In Court Via AI; Pakistan: India Launches Missiles Targeting Key Military Bases. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 09, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AUXILLARY BISHOP ROY E. CAMPBELL, JR., ARCHDIOCESE OF WASHINGTON D.C.: And if it's necessary to make a point, I don't think he has the shyness not to say what he, what he thinks.

Quite honestly, what I said in direct response to the elimination of diversity, equity, and inclusion and -- you know, that's not what the Bible that many of us called as knowledge of God, His prophecies and fulfillment has to say. It is an exact opposite of what our Lord has called us to do. He's called us to embrace diversity, to embrace equity and truth, and to embrace inclusion of everyone into the life of the church and to each other's life and into the life of God himself.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Bishop, thank you so very much for your time. And thanks to all of you for being with us. Anderson starts now.

[20:01:09]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, the video of her arrest by masked men outside her home drew global attention as a chilling sign of the times. Well, today, a judge freed the Turkish exchange student, saying the government showed no evidence to support its case.

Also, tonight is Pope Leo celebrates his first mass as pontiff, his brother speaks with us. And then, in what seems to be a legal first, a dead man gives testimony through an A.I. recreation at the sentencing of his killer. You'll hear what he said and what kind of brave new world this could usher in.

Good evening, thanks for joining us. All of that is ahead, but we begin with breaking news in the ongoing military clash between India and Pakistan.

A short time ago, Pakistan closed off its airspace after officials there said were Indian missile strikes on several key military bases. According to a military spokesman, most of the missiles were intercepted and it's unclear from the statement exactly what was hit. Just moments ago, Pakistan said its retaliation against Indian aggression, its words "has begun."

CNN's Nic Robertson is in Islamabad for us tonight. So what do we know about the attacks tonight?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, according to the military here, three Pakistani military air bases, including the main airbase in the capital here used by foreign dignitaries flying in and out of the capital, incidentally, used just yesterday on a diplomatic mission by the Saudi Deputy Foreign Minister six miles from here. That has been hit, as well as two other important military bases.

And within a few minutes of that news being announced here, that Pakistan State T.V., PTV, came on air with massive flashing banners, a real urgency in the sound of voice, a real sort of jingoistic language saying Pakistan has retaliated against Indian aggression, saying a full throttle response was underway, further calling on Muslims in India and Bangladesh. A Muslim majority nation once known as East Pakistan in India's East to rise up as well and to join Pakistan.

It does feel, Anderson, as if we have turned a corner. The escalation that so many people have been worrying about does appear to be underway. It's not clear what this full throttle response looks like yet. We don't have details from the military of how they are responding to the attacks in the early hours of this morning by India, they say that they intercepted most of the Indian missiles flying at those air bases.

But just yesterday, Pakistani officials were telling us there was a pause for diplomacy. The Saudi Deputy Foreign Minister flying out late last night. A few hours later, the airbase he flew out of being hit. It does appear as if that diplomacy has fallen flat -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes, Nic Robertson we'll continue to check in with you throughout the hour in the evening.

Now, keeping them honest with the federal judge's ruling ordering the immediate release of a woman who spent the last six weeks in an ICE detention center in Louisiana. Rumeysa Ozturk is now out on her own recognizance. That's her, tonight. In a video taken moments after her release. Miss Ozturk is a 30-year-old Turkish doctoral candidate at tufts university.

You see her on the left? She was grabbed off the street outside her home near Boston on the 25th of March. She was arrested by a number of plainclothes federal agents, most of them wearing masks.

Now, they took Miss Ozturk to Louisiana in preparation to deport her. Now, it's important to point out she has not been charged with any crime. The Trump administration said her visa had been revoked because of her participation in activities in support of Hamas, something her friends have said they've seen no evidence of.

She had, however, co-authored with three other graduate students, an op-ed in the school newspaper a year before, which was critical of the university's response to a vote by a student group which called for the university to divest from Israel over its prosecution of the war in Gaza. Today, citing that op-ed as the only evidence the administration had presented as to why she should be detained until a deportation hearing, Vermont Federal Judge William Sessions III ordered her immediate release, which quickly drew this reaction from the White House.

[20:05:10]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think our overall feeling we've made quite clear that lower level judges should not be dictating the foreign policy of the United States, and we absolutely believe that the President and the Department of Homeland Security are well within their legal rights to deport illegal immigrants.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Judge Sessions today said that Miss Ozturk had raised what he said were, "substantial claims of both due process and first amendment violations," quoting him further on the free speech aspect, he said, "Continued detention potentially chills the speech of the millions and millions of individuals in this country who are not citizens. Any one of them may now avoid exercising their First Amendment rights for fear of being whisked away to a detention center."

And the reason why he puts the First Amendment front and center is simple. The only evidence the government has put forward, he writes, was that op-ed in the student newspaper. "That is literally the case," he says in the ruling. And just to give you a better idea of what kind of case that is, here's the op-ed in question.

You can see from the headline it calls on the university's president to adopt three student body senate resolutions, calling on him to acknowledge what they termed a genocide of Palestinians in Gaza and to divest from companies tied to Israel. Now, it didn't mention Hamas, didn't call for violence. The op-ed also cites the university's divestment from South Africa in 1989, and goes on to say, "The open and free debate demonstrated by the Senate process, together with the serious organizing efforts of students, weren't credible. self- reflection by the office of the President and the university."

Now, you can agree or disagree with the op-ed, as well as the resolutions and the conclusions they draw about Israel and the fighting in Gaza. It is, after all, one of the most contentious subjects there is. But from that op-ed alone, if the judge is to be believed, there's nothing that backs up the Trump administration's claim that Miss Ozturk is a Department of Homeland Security spokesperson put it, "engaged in activities in support of Hamas, a foreign terrorist organization that relishes the killing of Americans."

Then again, in this and other deportation cases it's pursuing, the administration is now considering a way around these court cases by doing what has only been done four times in the country's history, namely, suspending habeas corpus, which allows people in custody to challenge the legality of their detention. Here's what Stephen Miller, the President's top White House adviser on deportation policy, had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, DEPUTY CHIEF-OF-STAFF FOR POLICY AND HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: Well, the Constitution is clear. And that, of course, is the supreme law of the land that the privilege of The Writ of Habeas Corpus can be suspended in a time of invasion. So it's an option were actively looking at. Look, a lot of it depends on whether the courts do the right thing or not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Joining me now is former federal prosecutor and bestselling author Jeffrey Toobin and retired U.S. District Court Judge Shira Scheindlin.

Jeff, Miss Ozturk is out of detention the same day that Stephen Miller says about the White House might suspend Habeas Corpus, saying that there's an invasion. I'm not sure if there's an invasion of Turkish graduate students or exactly who the invasion he's referring to is. But what's your reaction?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND BESTSELLING AUTHOR: You know, talking about suspending Habeas Corpus is such a wild step. You know, the only time a President has done it unilaterally without the authorization of Congress was Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War, when Congress wasn't even in session and couldn't ratify what he was doing.

I mean, habeas corpus goes back to the Magna Carta in the 13th century. The idea that someone in custody has the right to go to court to challenge their incarceration, that is so basic to Anglo-American law. And that's one reason why suspending Habeas Corpus is considered such an extreme, extreme step. This is an example of how losses in court is causing this administration to escalate its rhetoric and we'll see where it goes.

COOPER: Judge Sheindlin, I'm wondering what you make of Judge Sessions' ruling that there's no evidence here, absent consideration of the op-ed?

SHIRA SCHEINDLIN, FORMER US DISTRICT COURT JUDGE: Well, he's absolutely right. There is no evidence that this person was a Hamas supporter or a terrorist supporter had given any aid to terrorism. She wrote an op-ed along with three other coauthors and that's called free speech. We're allowed to write op-eds in this country. I've done it. Maybe you've done it. A lot of people have done it. There's nothing wrong with it.

So, there was never any basis to pick her up and to hold her for six weeks in detention. When she's a woman who has a serious medical condition. This is all wrong. And Judge Sessions quickly ruled. You notice he ruled from the bench. He didn't wait to write a written opinion. He's a very experienced judge. Actually, I -- COOPER: Do you know him?

SCHEINDLIN: Yes, I know him. We went on the bench at the same time. He's been doing it 30 years. So he's experienced. He's fast, he's smart. He did what he did and he did the right thing.

COOPER: And the idea of eliminating Habeas Corpus Writ.

SCHEINDLIN: Well, what Stephen Miller said was ridiculous. I think Jeff Toobin used another word, but its looney -- it's looney to do that. There's no invasion. And two judges have recently said, in the context of the Alien Enemies Act, there's no invasion. So, i heard your joke. Maybe the invasion is of Turkish graduate students, but there's clearly no invasion in this country. So, there wouldn't be a basis in the world to suspend the great writ, the Writ of Habeas Corpus.

COOPER: Jeff, what happens to Ozturk now? The government is still expected to try to deport her. It just can't detain her during the process. She sort of lives, I guess, with a Sword of Damocles over her head. But can she be deported because of the op-ed?

TOOBIN: I think if that's all the evidence they have she probably would win a deportation case. You know, I think it's so hard to keep track of all these cases that that I think it's just important to focus on the how simple this case is.

Unlike, say, Mr. Abrego Garcia, who was the person sent to El Salvador, you know, Miss Ozturk was legally in the united states. There's no question she's legally in the United States. And it is also true that non-citizens have First Amendment rights in this country. So the idea that you can get thrown out of this country when you are legally in the country simply for writing an op-ed piece like the one you quoted, would be a tremendous departure from our free speech traditions.

And we'll see if the government pursues this because they could try to deport her. But I just think it would be a losing case.

COOPER: It certainly, Jeff, I mean, it has a chilling effect if for a country which has always said they want the best and the brightest from all over the world to come and take part and help the United States grow and get even better and be on the cutting edge of technology and stuff, to tell all those people who are coming. Oh, by the way, you can't express any opinion. That's interesting.

TOOBIN: That's a very scary prospect, especially when, you know, immigrants have contributed so much, you know, people not born in this country either, even before they become naturalized citizens. You know, they run companies here. They contribute in so many different ways. And basically what this administration is saying is watch what you say, because if you express opinions that are contrary to what we interpret as, you know, what's appropriate, that you can get thrown out of the country, its already hurt tourism, and it's going to hurt students coming to this country. It is a very big deal.

COOPER: Judge, do you think she might get deported?

SCHEINDLIN: You know I don't think so. As said, if the only evidence is that she wrote an op-ed, there's no way even an immigration judge would say no to that, unless they come up with something more. She was here legally. Student visa, lots of students. We're going to lose all our foreign students. We're going to lose our out of revenue from that. So again, this is a very bad idea. I just wanted to say one more quick thing.

At the end of Stephen Millers little statement, he said, we'll see what the judges do. It depends if they do the right thing. That was another veiled threat against judges.

COOPER: Judge Scheindlin, I appreciate it, you've been honest, I wish Jeff Toobin, as well. Just ahead, the administration fires the librarian of Congress, the first woman and the first Black person to hold the job, the justification offered for it, and how it fits into the larger campaign that's erasing important parts of this country's history from view.

Also, the new Pope for first day on the job, his first words in English in public, and his brother speaking to CNN, we'll have that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:18:15]

COOPER: Pope Leo XIV led his first mass as pontiff today and gave his first homily, starting it off. Unlike yesterday in English.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE LEO XIV, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: Through the Ministry of Peter, you have called me to carry that cross and to be blessed with that mission, and I know I can rely on each and every one of you to walk with me as we continue as a church, as a community of friends of Jesus, as believers, to announce the good news, to announce the Gospel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: In addition to that, we learned today that the Pope has Louisiana Creole ancestry. His grandparents on his mom's side came to this country from Haiti and lived in New Orleans before moving to Chicago. We're also learning more about who this first U.S. born pope is from his brother John, who spoke today with CNN's Whitney Wild.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WHITNEY WILD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: (on camera): So and this is your mother?

JOHN PREVOST, BROTHER OF POPE XIV: Yes.

WILD (on camera): Wow. You guys really look like your mom.

PREVOST: Yes.

WILD (on camera): Yes. He really takes after your mom.

PREVOST: Yes.

WILD (voice over): John Prevost remembers the days when now, Pope Leo XIV was known simply as Bob.

POPE LEO XIV: (speaking in foreign language)

WILD (on camera): Did he teach you anything as a as a person, as a child?

PREVOST: Stand up for what you believe in.

WILD (voice over): He was the youngest of three boys spread just four years apart. Music filled their home. Pope Leo learned to play the organ, his brother did too.

PREVOST: He would take the lessons and come home and teach me. Our mom had an almost an operatic voice, and so she was very active in our church choir.

WILD (voice over): Prevost says his brother always knew he would one day become a priest, and was guided to the papacy.

PREVOST: Not that he necessarily was looking for the job, but if that's what God wants, then he will do it.

This is his ordination and his first blessing went to our mother. That's when he became a cardinal.

[20:20:12]

WILD (voice over): The Pope's chosen path began early.

PREVOST: When the now, Pope graduated eighth grade, he was off to seminary already. It's bittersweet in the sense that when we dropped him off for freshman year of high school, the ride home was very sad. Now, it's even worse in the sense that will we ever get to see him unless we go over to Rome. You know what I mean?

WILD (on camera): How does that feel as a brother?

PREVOST: Its hard, you know, it's hard.

WILD (on camera): How do you cope with that?

PREVOST: You just have to, you know, there's no other option.

WILD (on camera): Did your mom or dad ever try to talk him out of it?

PREVOST: No, because he knew at such a young age that this is what he wanted. No one was going to talk him out of it.

WILD (voice over): Pope Leo assumes his position at a fraught political time around the world and in his home country.

PREVOST: I don't think he's really happy with what's going on in terms of immigration in this country. It's not really human to be treating other humans the way some of them are being treated. And I think that will become an issue he'll talk about.

WILD (voice over): Prevost says he talks to his brother every day and deeply understands the weight of the Pope's role as well.

WILD (on camera): How do you move through this life with this brother, who means so much to the world?

PREVOST: It's very awesome. You know, it's a very great honor, but with honor comes great responsibility.

WILD (voice over): Whitney Wild, CNN, New Lenox, Illinois.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, joining me now is Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who is a lifelong Catholic, just recently attended the funeral of Pope Francis. She's also "The New York Times" bestselling author of "The Art of Power." Speaker Pelosi, thanks for being here. I understand you were at the airport in Washington when Pope Leo's election was announced. What was that moment like as everyone realized what was happening?

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Well, we were early to not early -- everybody found out at the same time but as soon as we found out there was white smoke. And I said, there's. white smoke, there's white smoke. And people were so excited, I don't know whether they were Catholics or not, but they were all excited. And then it was later that we found out that it was an American pope. And for me to find out that he took the name Leo XIV was even more exciting.

COOPER: Why for you, was that so important?

PELOSI: Well, you know, we never know how pope is going to be. They set their own path. We love Francis for the path he took. Pope Leo will take his own path. But he gave us a clue when he said Leo XIV. Because the Leo XIII was a champion for poor people, for workers.

His encyclical Rerum Novarum of new things, of new things was about worker's rights and fair wages and working conditions, and joining unions, the right to join unions, in addition to caring so much for people who had needs, that people have needs. And he was a diplomat and a peaceful person -- a person of peace.

So, when he took that name, I thought, that is not a casual association. But again, being close to Francis and taking Leo XIII name, he will make his own mark and that will be very exciting. I've heard you both did.

COOPER: I've heard you talk about your mom before, and I know she was a huge role model for you. She was born in Italy, later immigrated to the to the United States. You were raised in a very staunch Catholic family. What do you think she would have thought about an American pope?

PELOSI: Very exciting, very exciting, but also recognizing that this pope, an American pope, is a global pope, spending so much time in Peru ministering to the needs of the poor, which is, of course, the mission of the Gospel of Matthew. So she would have been thrilled at the an American, but one who shared the values of the gospel.

COOPER: It was so interesting --

PELOSI: She had the book -- I'm sorry.

COOPER: It's okay.

PELOSI: She had the book of John Paul next to her bed, and she would read from it regularly, even though she had read it completely. So, following the work of the popes was important to our family.

COOPER: When did she come to the U.S.? Because I was thinking about Pope Leo died, I think, in 1903. When did she come?

PELOSI: She wasn't born yet. She wasn't born yet. Her family was in the United States, they went back to Italy to visit family and she was born --

COOPER: Oh I see, okay -- I think we lost the feed. We'll, let's see if we can get it back. Speaker Pelosi.

[20:25:07]

Coming up next, the firing of the nation's top librarian. Why, the administration says she had to go and what the facts of the matter actually are, keeping them honest.

Also, A.I. brings an brings an electronically revived dead man into court. This is fascinating to make a kind of victim statement in his killer's trial. We'll play more of this for you. Why the judge let it happen, what a former judge makes of it all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:08]

COOPER: We fixed our technical issues. Apologies for that. I've got Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi back. Thanks so much for sticking around.

The Pope did speak a bit in English today. I was struck that yesterday he chose to speak in Italian and Spanish from the balcony of St. Peter's, not emphasizing his American roots. I'm wondering, did that signal anything to you?

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), HOUSE SPEAKER EMERITA: Yes, I think he was sending -- he was communicating a message that he was there for everyone. And his English, of course, was perfect, and American English. And then, of course, speaking in Italian, which is the language of the Vatican, and then Spanish to send that message to Peru, that his connection was still real there. So this is a Pope that is -- knows how to communicate with the people. It's so thrilling to see him do that in terms of his work in Peru was to work with the poor, to work with the poor. And his message with Leo XIII is to work with the poor. His message with Francis was to follow his work, to work with the poor, but in his own way.

And showing the three languages, I think it's important for people to know that this is going to be a unifying Pope, right from the start, when he was elected. He was elected early, early in the first real day of elections, one day for one vote. But then the next day --

COOPER: So -- it's also --

PELOSI: -- an overwhelming vote from the start.

COOPER: It's also so interesting that it was a vote by a college of cardinals, which the majority of whom had been -- become cardinals under Pope Francis, and the majority of them now come from the global south, not from Europe and the global north.

And yet they chose, that's what's so surprising to me, that all these people from the global south chose this cardinal from America, but who also has spent much of his life, as you said, in Peru and is fluent in Spanish and has devoted his life to reaching out to people.

PELOSI: And his holiness, Pope Francis also appointed from Asia, from other parts of the world, non-European, non-American --

COOPER: Yes.

PELOSI: -- but nonetheless, someone who had it all. He was American. He's a Peruvian citizen and he spoke Spanish, as we know, and he worked with the poor in Peru. And he had standing in the Vatican. He knew the process, and so he'll be able --

COOPER: Yes.

PELOSI: -- to manage that, communicate with the people, and I hope bring people together as a pope should do have -- popes have done.

COOPER: Yes.

PELOSI: We're so proud of him. As I know, so many people are telling me all the ways that they were connected to him, this, that and the other thing in our country. It's pretty exciting. It's pretty exciting.

COOPER: Yes. Speaker Pelosi, thank you so much for your time and my best to your husband as well. Thank you.

PELOSI: Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you.

COOPER: All right. Take care.

It seems like every day we learn of a new target for the Trump administration and its efforts against anything related to diversity, equity and inclusion, and what it has in one executive order called improper ideology, which seems to be anything President Trump believes casts America's founding principles and historical milestones in a negative light. Those are words from the executive order.

That has now made its way to the Library of Congress. Yesterday, the White House notified its librarian that she was being fired. Now, you may not have heard of her. Her name is Carla Hayden. She was sworn in back in September of 2016. She was the first woman, first black person in history to serve in that position. She had about a year and a half left in her tenure term.

The White House Press Secretary, Karoline Leavitt, was asked about Hayden's firing today.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We felt she did not fit the needs of the American people. There were quite concerning things that she had done at the Library of Congress in the pursuit of DEI and putting inappropriate books in the library for children.

And we don't believe that she was serving the interest of the American taxpayer well. So she has been removed from her position. And the president is well within his rights to do that.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: So we followed up with the White House to ask which books they deemed inappropriate. An official pointed us to this Library of Congress webpage that offers resources for LGBTQ plus youth, and specifically cited this book called "Queer: The Ultimate LGBTQ Guide for Teens".

Now, I was only able to read about 45 pages of the book online today, but those pages seem very measured and certainly didn't have anything particularly shocking in them. It would be the kind of book a teenager who was questioning their sexuality might actually find helpful.

Talked about gay people and lesbians and, yes, transgender people, and it didn't demonize them or denigrate them. So maybe that's what is so upsetting to someone in the administration. But this is not the only action around books that the Trump administration has taken.

[20:35:01]

Yesterday, a West Point professor announced that he'd be resigning after what he said was upheaval to the curriculum at the Esteemed Military Academy in the wake of an executive order on day one from President Trump targeting DEI across the federal government and a subsequent memo by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.

Now, this professor, in an opinion piece published in the New York Times, wrote, in part, "In a matter of days, the United States Military Academy at West Point abandoned its core principles". He went on to say, "It was suddenly eliminating courses, modifying syllabuses and censoring arguments to comport with the ideological taste of the Trump administration".

And just today, in a memo obtained by CNN, the Pentagon ordered all military academies to identify and remove all books and educational materials that, in their words, promote divisive concepts and gender ideology, calling them, and I quote, "incompatible with the department's core mission".

Now, you might be wondering, what are these divisive concepts they're so concerned about that members of the military might read about? Well, thankfully, in their memo, they actually include an appendix. This is the appendix here. They list 20 search items that all libraries and librarians have to now screen all their books, run it through all these search words.

Half of these words are related to gender. It seems like any term that has the word gender in it should set off alarm bells for military librarians and maybe those books should be taken out. Phrases like gender dysphoria, that's a dangerous concept.

Gender expression, gender identity. Then, of course, you've got to search for any words, any title that has the T word in it, you know, transgender, transgender people or transgender military personnel. But the other 10 words to search for in all the books are related to race.

Affirmative action. That's something to be screened, that term. Affirmative action programs-law and legislation. That's apparently worrisome. Affirmative action programs-United States. Got to screen for that.

Anti-racism, you got to watch out for that. That's another screening term. Discrimination. The word discrimination is a word you should screen for in all the books, particularly in the law and legislation. You don't want to hear about that.

Diversity in the workplace. DEI, of course, and a white privilege. Not a thing. Screen for that. And, of course, critical race theory. What's interesting about critical race theory is that it reminded me that it wasn't too long ago, 2021, in fact, that the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs actually talked about critical race theory in a rather tense exchange with former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz.

And given what's happening inside the military right now, I thought it's worth listening to once again. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

GEN. MARK MILLEY, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: First of all, on the issue of critical race theory, et cetera, I'll obviously have to get much smarter on whatever the theory is. But I do think it's important, actually, for those of us in uniform to be open minded and be widely read. And the United States Military Academy is a university. And it is important that we train and we understand.

And I want to understand white rage. And I'm white. And I want to understand it. So what is it that caused thousands of people to assault this building and try to overturn the Constitution of the United States of America? What caused that? I want to find that out. I want to maintain an open mind here. And I do want to analyze it.

It's important that we understand that because our soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and guardians, they come from the American people. So it is important that the leaders now and in the future do understand it.

I've read Mao Zedong. I've read Karl Marx. I've read Lenin. That doesn't make me a communist. So what is wrong with understanding, having some situational understanding about the country for which we are here to defend? And I personally find it offensive that we are accusing the United States military, our general officers, our commissioned, non-commissioned officers of being, quote, "woke" or something else because we're studying some theories that are out there.

That was started at Harvard Law School years ago. And it proposed that there were laws in the United States, antebellum laws prior to the Civil War, that led to a power differential with African-Americans that were three-quarters of a human being when this country was formed.

And then we had a Civil War and Emancipation Proclamation to change it. And we brought it up to the Civil Rights Act in 1964. It took another 100 years to change that. So look, I do want to know. And I respect your service. And you and I are both Green Berets. But I want to know.

And it matters to our military and the discipline and cohesion of this military. And I thank you for the opportunity to make a comment on that.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: That was Mark Milley, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

For more on this, I want to bring in Sherrilyn Ifill, former president and director counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, currently the Vernon Jordan Chair in Civil Rights at Howard University Law School.

Professor, I should point out Mark Milley has been vilified now, of course, by President Trump, called a traitor --

SHERRILYN IFILL, FORMER PRESIDENT & DIRECTOR-COUNSEL, NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND: Yes.

COOPER: -- all sorts of things. I think he's had his, you know, security detail taken. You know, but I wanted to play that because I think it's remarkable to hear a top military official speaking like that about the importance of understanding.

[20:40:09]

You know, our troops serve in countries all over the world, understanding the places they're serving, understanding different ideas. That's not something to be afraid of, is it? IFILL: Well, it's important also to remember that General Milley actually has commanded combat troops. This is someone who understands from soup to nuts, because I've been hearing a lot about creating a warfighting military.

This is someone who actually has had that responsibility, had the responsibility to supervise men in combat and, you know, made a statement that can't be improved upon. I don't want to try to improve upon it. I think he made the case there that you want your team and you want those who fight in the military to understand, even if they're understanding the perspectives of other people they don't agree with.

But this takes us back to the library context, Anderson, where this is even, in some ways, more alarming. I mean, a library is not a how-to webinar. A library is where you go to get information. And that information, it doesn't have an opinion. It's information.

It could be information about LGBTQ teens. It could be information about John Adams. It could be information about Thomas Jefferson. It could be information about affirmative action or a Supreme Court case involving affirmative action.

It could be articles that were written in opposition to affirmative action. But all of that material is there in libraries for you to be able to have access to. So when you go into a library to research, you want the information.

You look up the search term, affirmative action. Let's suppose you're a college student and you want to write a paper opposing affirmative action. Don't you want to have access to all of the materials that were written about it, about how it started, about what different presidents said? All of that is contained in a library.

And so the idea that Carla Hayden, the Librarian of Congress, would be targeted because she ran the country's library, which is supposed to be the repository of all of this information and all of these artifacts, is absurd.

COOPER: Well, also, you think, you know, anybody who's at a military academy has a, you know, they probably have a phone. They can go online. They can listen to podcasts of Andrew Tate and, you know, whomever they want to listen to and get all sorts of ideas and hear all sorts of things.

But the idea that they shouldn't be able to go to a library and actually get books that have, you know, other ideas or things they might not hear from, you know, some in the manosphere is probably a good thing. I mean, I think I -- it's so incredible to me that we're at a point where literally the military libraries -- the military academies, I mean, these are incredible institutions, are literally scanning every book for these words.

IFILL: Well, this is what the nature of discrimination, whether it's racial discrimination or homophobia, looks like. It is a fundamentally irrational impulse. And so all of the actions that flow from it will also be irrational. It is irrational to hate people because of the color of their skin, because of their race, to believe that they are lesser, to believe that they are in some way less important than you are.

It is also irrational to believe that someone's sexual preference makes them more or less human, more or less of a citizen of this country. But once you indulge that irrationality, then you can continue to follow that irrationality down the rabbit hole of saying things like libraries shouldn't have information.

And I just -- I want to come back to the Carla Hayden piece one more time, if you don't mind, Anderson, because I've known her so long. And this is such an insult. And it actually goes to your point.

The termination email that she received was a two-line termination email --

COOPER: Wow.

IFILL: -- that was -- that opened with Carla, not dear Dr. Hayden -- Carla. This was sent by a deputy in the presidential personnel office. I can -- I feel really confident that this is not someone who is a dear friend of Dr. Hayden that should feel comfortable enough calling her Carla.

But Carla and two lines is how they treated this extraordinary public servant who everyone agrees has been an amazing Librarian of Congress, one of the few in the history of the Library of Congress who's an actual librarian.

So what they mean to do, Anderson, is to disrespect her. They mean to disrespect her. They mean to show that they find people who are trans or people who are gay or people who are black, that they find those people objectionable.

[20:45:02]

They can't say that, so they call it DEI. They can't say that, so they call it woke. But what they mean when they say that is they mean a black person. What they mean when they say that is a woman. What they mean when they say that is a trans person.

And what they are showing America is their disdain for those people. And they are involved in a concerted effort to remove people who are not straight, white, male, Christians from significance in public life. And that's why we have to take this so seriously.

This is not just firing here and there or removing one or two books. This is the effort to wipe out groups of people from prominence in public life. And just to go back to the military, Anderson, our military will be weaker.

We need those who are putting their life on the line to actually understand what's happening, not only in our country, but in the world. And this administration is seeking to impoverish that knowledge. COOPER: Sherrilyn Ifill, thank you for your perspective. I appreciate it. We'll talk again.

IFILL: Thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: Up next, what could be a first in court. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

CHRISTOPHER PELKEY, KILLED IN A ROAD RAGE INCIDENT (via AI): Just to be clear for everyone seeing this, I am a version of Chris Pelkey, recreated through A.I. that uses my picture and my voice profile.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: This is a remarkable story. That's the real Chris Pelkey there. Then that photo, the A.I. generated video of him was played at the sentencing hearing for the man convicted of shooting him to death. It's raising a lot of questions of -- you'll hear more from him in -- or his A.I. version ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:50:43]

COOPER: Recently in Arizona courtroom, what's believed to be the first time artificial intelligence has been used to give a victim's statement, a dead victim. This is Christopher Pelkey. He was shot to death near Phoenix in a road rage incident three years ago.

Earlier this month at the hearing for his killer, his sister and brother-in-law got permission from the judge to play the A.I. generated statement using Christopher's likeness. Here's a clip of that likeness speaking to the real victim's killer.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

PELKEY (via AI): It is a shame we encountered each other that day in those circumstances. In another life, we probably could have been friends. I believe in forgiveness and in God who forgives. I always have, and I still do.

To my family and everyone that I've met along the way, it was a lot of fun. You know, I always had a lot of fun. Love each other because you never know how long you have, but make the most of each day and live your life.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: Well, joining me now is retired New York City Criminal Court Judge George Grasso. What did you think when you saw this?

GEORGE GRASSO, RETIRED NYC CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: Frankly, a bit appalling.

COOPER: Appalling because? GRASSO: Appalling because what was done is a decedent, someone who was a victim of a homicide and was obviously deceased --

COOPER: Right.

GRASSO: -- was brought back to life to make his own victim impact statement in front of a judge. I think it was quite creepy.

COOPER: The words are not words -- I mean, these were words that were generated, I guess, by his family.

GRASSO: Right, but it was presented as the decedent making his own victim impact statement. Now, I watched it in its entirety. There was some compelling video. I mean, my heart goes out to the family.

But I think it would have been a more honest process if, say, his sister made her victim impact statement and referred to certain videos showing him actually speaking. I just -- I felt it was very powerful.

COOPER: I just want to play a little bit more of it.

GRASSO: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

PELKEY (via IA): To your honor, Judge Lang, thank you for making yourself available to see this case to the end, especially when the rescheduled trial conflicted with your daughter's spring break. Thank you for listening to everyone today.

Thank you for reading the flood of impact statements that came in before today that so many people wrote on my behalf. Every single one of them is meaningful and gives a glimpse into my life with each of them.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: I mean, to your point, it does sort of open up a Pandora's box of how this might be used down the road.

GRASSO: 100 percent. Look, lawyer's job, the job of lawyers, whether you're on prosecution side, the government side, or defense side, is to push the envelope. Now, my understanding is this is the case of its kind. I was stunned when I saw this and that it was permitted, and I would hope that it gets very --

COOPER: Do you think it had an impact on the judge?

GRASSO: You know, I think it might have, because from what I've read, the D.A. in the case, the people had recommended nine and a half years. And then after seeing this and the entire process, the judge went a year over what the prosecutor recommended. And like I say, my heart goes out to the family. I'm not familiar with the underlying circumstances of the case.

COOPER: Right. GRASSO: It's just this process, is a scary process. It kind of evokes like a star, you know, a science fiction, a dystopian star chamber type quality. I mean, what will we come up with next here?

COOPER: Yes.

GRASSO: So there are other ways to do this that are more straightforward and honest. And we have to be very careful once we open this door.

COOPER: This is just the beginning. I mean, I think there's a whole wave of stuff coming that we have no idea even how to ready ourselves.

GRASSO: Well, that's why I think our judges need to be better gatekeepers here than maybe what we saw in this particular case.

COOPER: George Grasso, appreciate your time. Thank you.

GRASSO: Thank you. Thank you very much.

COOPER: Coming up next, late new developments in the growing military clash between India and Pakistan. We'll have a live report right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:58:59]

COOPER: More now in our breaking news, new developments in the military clash between Pakistan and India. I want to go back to Nic Robertson in Islamabad. Nic, what's the latest?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Anderson, the people of Pakistan waking up this morning to a new era in their conflict with India. A corner has been turned. Pakistan has announced that it has retaliated for India's attacks. An eye for an eye, a full throttle response.

They've targeted, they say, inside of India, the east of India, three different bases, one storing weapons systems, two military air bases that they say India has used to attack Pakistan. They describe this as a response, in direct response to what India has done.

But there should be no doubt the language, the jingoistic language on state television, the narrative around the conflict now is taking a stronger turn. It is becoming more bellicose. From the Pakistan side, state TV was calling for Muslims in India and Bangladesh in the east of India, Muslim majority nation to rise up and join them in this fight against India.

It is not clear where it goes from here. This was in response to India strikes that Pakistan said happened in the early hours. One of those strikes just a few miles from here at an important air base in the capital.

COOPER: Yes.

ROBERTSON: Two other air bases inside Pakistan hit. The gloves do seem to be coming off here, Anderson.

COOPER: Yes. Nic, we'll continue to check in with you. Appreciate it.

The news continues. "The Source" with Kaitlan Collins starts now.