Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Texas Gov: 170 Plus Missing From Floods, Death Toll Rises To 111; Cabin Of Campers At Camp Mystic Presumed Dead Or Missing; Texas Governor On Floods: Asking About Blame Is "Word Choice Of Losers"; Trump Decries Putin's "Bullshit" As He Vents New Anger At Russia; Trump Announces New Weapons Shipments To Ukraine; Sources: Hegseth Did Not Inform The White House Before He Authorized Pause On Weapon Shipments To Ukraine; Trump, AG Bondi Address Lingering Questions About Epstein Files; MAGA Supporters Outraged With Trump Administration After Justice Department Releases Epstein Findings; Supreme Court Clears Way For Trump To Downsize Federal Workforce. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 08, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
GENE SEROKA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PORT OF LOS ANGELES: Early hours now on the ground is that they're reprogramming their supply chains, trying to understand the scenarios if 25 percent sticks and what happens to manufacturing broadly, these companies, these iconic brands in Japan have manufacturing facilities around the world. Now, it's time to start moving levers on what makes sense most for them and their customers.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, well, Gene, obviously, so eager to hear how these meetings go in these next few days as again a seismic shift in the tariff ground underneath where you are right now.
Thank you so much to Gene Seroka, joining us from Osaka tonight.
And thanks so much to all of you for being with us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:44]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, Texas officials deliver the worst possible news. More people, many more are missing from the flood, details ahead.
Also tonight, the President is fed up with Vladimir Putin. But will he really start sending weapons to Ukraine again? And will it be enough?
And later, after top officials teased the Jeffrey Epstein files, for months, now, the Trump administration tells its conspiracy loving supporters there's nothing to see.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. With a single announcement late today, the scale of the Texas flooding disaster grew suddenly and drastically.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GREG ABBOT (R-TX): Just in the Kerr County area alone, there are 161 people who are known to be missing. And again, that comes from combined law enforcement efforts, 161 known people who are missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's Texas Governor Greg Abbott, who surveyed the damage in the Guadalupe River basin by helicopter before delivering the disturbing news. Now, 161 missing in Kerr County alone, a total of 173 people missing across the region. That is seven times more than we were told last night, and considerably higher than the number of people known dead, which is now at least 111, meaning the news could grow even darker in the days ahead.
Also today, more reminders, some of them almost surreal, of what the river could and did do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(Video of camp cabin floats along river with staffers stuck inside.)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The what you're seeing, that's a cabin with four young men inside, staffers at one of the many summer camps along the river. It wound up in the river. The father of one of the men said they woke up to the sound of circuit breakers tripping and at first, didn't even know they were floating away. The cabin washed downstream for about 30 seconds before hitting a tree and getting wedged against a stone wall. Amazingly, no one was hurt.
The story at Camp Mystic though, as you know, it just keeps getting sadder. Tonight, we know that all 13 girls and two counselors in a single cabin close to the river called Bubble-Inn, are either missing or known to have died. The girls were just eight and nine years old. Their counselor, Chloe Childress, would have been a freshman this fall at the University of Texas. Her family says she was looking forward to dedicating the summer to loving and mentoring young girls.
We learned a little today about one of Chloe's campers, Mary Grace Baker, who was eight years old. In a statement, her family said her giggle was contagious, as was her spirit. She loved art and dance, her school and playing at west end little league. She was a girl's girl who loved pink sparkles and bows in her signature angelic ringlet curls. We don't have a photo of Mary Grace's cabin mate, Molly Dewitt, who was nine and from Houston. No photos either of twins Hannah and Rebecca Lawrence, who were in a nearby cabin.
Bailey Martin was a police officer from Odessa, Texas, about 300 miles away. He was on a family trip to the Guadalupe River. Joyce Catherine Badon was staying with friends in a cabin near the river when she was washed away. Three of her friends are still missing, she was 21.
Miriam Frizzell, known as Molly, was a grandmother of four from Abilene, Texas. Her online obituary reads: "To know Holly was to love her. Her personality was larger than life, magnetic, warm and unforgettable." Holly was 72-years-old. She loved to play with her grandchildren along the river near her home. They were, as you might imagine, the center of her universe. It's hard to imagine a more idyllic scene, let alone conceive of what it would become for her and for other children and grandchildren early Friday morning.
CNN's Ed Lavandera has more for us tonight on the campers and counselors in that one single cabin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Camp Mystic girls know they've arrived to this tranquil bend along the Guadalupe River when they see the mystic letters greeting them from the sky high hilltop overlooking the campground. Down below a few days before the July 4th flooding, 13 girls, some as young as eight-years-old, and two teenage camp counselors had settled into the cabin known as the Bubble-Inn.
Many of those campers in this one cabin remain missing or dead, including eight year old Anna Margaret Bellows. Her mother expressed gratitude amid her grief.
[20:05:15]
PATRICIA BELLOWS, MOTHER OF FLOOD VICTIM: I have unending gratitude for the brave camp counselors who safely evacuated so many campers, and to the two camp counselors who gave their lives trying to protect my baby.
LAVANDERA (voice over): The Bubble-Inn Cabin sits among a cluster of cabins that overlook a sweeping green field down to the Guadalupe River Bed. This area is where the camps youngest campers stay.
In the early morning hours of July 4th, heavy rains made the river swell. It was dark. The power was out, and the camp counselors didn't have cell phones, so there was no way for them to receive alerts of the impending danger. The green roofed cabin you see between the trees there is the Bubble-Inn Cabin, and it sits in a part of Camp Mystic known as The Flats. And from what we've been able to piece together over the last few days, the girls and counselors inside there faced a terrible decision.
Along this side of The Flats, all of the cabins backed up to a hill. We know that counselors were breaking out windows and running up that hill. Other kids in other parts of the camp were moving behind the dining hall and the other structures you see there to a two-story recreation hall behind there, reaching higher ground there. Ultimately, we don't know what direction the girls and the counselors of the Bubble-Inn Cabin decided to do, but either way, it was a tragically overwhelming situation for all of them.
The body of one of the Bubble-Inn counselors, Chloe Childress, just 19-years-old and a recent high school graduate, was found after the rain subsided. Her family issued a statement saying: "Chloe Childress lived a beautiful life that saturated those around her with contagious joy, unending grace and abiding faith."
Now, the other camp survivors are left struggling to comprehend the devastation.
VIVIENNE NOBLES, EVACUATED FROM CAMP MYSTIC: Two of my friends died.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Ten-year-old Vivienne Nobles said some of her friends had to evacuate Camp Mystic still wearing their pajamas. Her cabin was on the hillside.
NOBLES: I couldn't even process how much rain was going down, and I couldn't even imagine how their place was.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Foot lockers, mattresses, and the remains of the camp are now piled outside as rescuers comb through what the floods left behind.
MCLEAN COBLE, VOLUNTEER FROM DALLAS: You see, like little kids clothes and stuff, just like all over the place with like, names in it and everything. And like, little camp t-shirts and it's just horrific.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Camp Mystic co-owner Dick Eastland also died in the flash flooding. One of the camp's employees told CNN he died trying to rescue campers. Stacy Merchant, a 12-time Mystic Camper herself, said she was grateful to be able to evacuate her daughter from the camp and for Eastland's sacrifice to try to save others.
STACEY MERCHANT, DAUGHTER EVACUATED FROM CAMP MYSTIC: The Eastland family is just like our own family. Dick and Tweety have been like a mother and a father to every single girl that's ever gone to Camp Mystic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And Ed Lavandera joins us now from Hunt, Texas.
Ed, what progress is being made in the search?
LAVANDERA: Well, we really got news this afternoon of the number of overall missing. In Kerr County alone, believed to be at least 161 and also this afternoon, Anderson, county officials putting out a warning to people that these massive debris piles that are all up and down this Guadalupe River, they are urging people to be especially careful as they go through them and not going through and clearing out their own debris until they get authorization from local officials.
Obviously, the concern is that there could be missing people in these massive debris piles. They've also issued a burn ban across the area as well. We've seen a number of people burning debris, which is very common out in these kind of rural areas. But now local officials are urging people not to do that for the time being -- Anderson.
COOPER: Ed Lavandera, thank you, appreciate it.
Our next guest is providing emotional and spiritual support to families and first responders in the community, comforting those who are still searching for their missing loved ones.
United Cajun Navy Chaplain Tony Dickey joins us now. He's also a member of the Alabama Association of Rescue Squads. Chaplain, thank you for being with us. Can you just talk about what you are seeing out there, what you were
hearing from people? I can't imagine how hard it is, what you do. And I mean, the search for these families, the weight is just its unbearable.
TONY DICKEY, CHAPLAIN, UNITED CAJUN NAVY: Yes, Anderson, I'm actually with several of the families who still have missing loved ones. They're living today minute by minute because simply that next minute might be the phone call that comes that says that their loved one has been recovered and what we do is we bring spiritual and emotional support. As you see, I'm holding a comfort cub. This is -- comfort cub is actually named "Hope" and we're giving them hope. And our hope is a chaplain is through Christ and through our faith. So we are there to help support them spiritually and emotionally.
[20:10:29]
COOPER: You've been doing this a long time. I feel like I've seen you out there in other places where terrible things have happened and can you just talk about a little bit about what it's like to step into someone's loss, to step into somebody's grief in the most tender moments when they haven't even gotten word of -- or that their loved one hasn't come home yet.
DICKEY: Yes, unfortunately, we have seen each other many times in mass casualty fatality events. When I, as a chaplain, go with the family. It's a very, very emotional toll. These families are going through extremely traumatic. You take the first responders, the search and rescue guys that are out here on the river. They're taking an extreme, hard, traumatic emotional hit. If you were one of them going through a debris pile and you pull that debris back, and there lays one of these precious children, that image is there, but they're willing to take that emotional toll to bring that loved one home, to that family, it's so important and that's what we're going to do.
COOPER: What is it that keeps you doing this work?
DICKEY: Honestly, as a Christian, Christ tells us to be that Good Samaritan, and it takes an emotional toll on chaplains. Yes it does, we cry with them. We hold those loved ones, those families -- just every time we're there, we wrap our arms around them and we cry together. And that's part of what Christ tells us to do, is be that Good Samaritan, love thy neighbor as thyself. And that's what we're here to do, is love these people and support them in their spiritual goal because without their faith in hanging on to their faith, that hope that we give them, I don't see how somebody can survive the emotional trauma without hanging on to their faith.
COOPER: And how long do you plan to keep doing this on in this location?
DICKEY: We will be here for several more days. I mean, I'm actually with three families right now. We will be here with these families until the families say, hey, we're good chaplain. When they have found our loved one and then at that point, we will help them any way we can with helping them, giving them counsel on doing celebration of life or funerals. We don't stop just here. We support these families weeks after they leave here.'
COOPER: Chaplain Dickey, I appreciate talking to you and I appreciate what you're doing. And please, I hope those families know that there are millions of people all around the world thinking of them and praying for them and praying for their loved ones that they come home. So, thank you.
DICKEY: Yes, sir. Just keep those prayers coming in, it is all we ask. And the families want you to please pray for the recovery of their loved one. Thank you all so much.
COOPER: Chaplain Dickey, thank you.
As we first reported last night, even as the recovery effort goes on, and even though the grieving has barely begun, questions are being asked and understandably about that early emergency warning system and what might be what might be improved on that down the road this won't happen again.
Governor Abbott was asked bluntly about who was to blame, and he called that kind of language the word choice is "losers." Then he went on to say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBOT: Every football team makes mistakes. The losing teams are the ones that try to point out who's to blame. The way winners talk is not to point fingers, they talk about solutions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: CNN's Shimon Prokupecz was at the press conference. He joins us now. Shimon, this is a really difficult time for this community. This is a really tender time as you know, you've been in a lot of these situations, unfortunately. People want answers about what went wrong, what can be improved on, and people are grieving. I know you had a chance to question local officials about exactly what they were doing in the early morning of July 4th, what did you want to know? What have they told you?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, absolutely. You know, this is such an incredible, difficult time for this community, for law enforcement in this community who know many of the people and who they're trying to find, who they were trying to rescue and certainly the emergency personnel that have been brought into this area.
It seems like everywhere you go here, somebody knows somebody. You know, we just came out of a City Council hearing, and it was the same thing. The people there on the City Council were almost in tears talking about some of the family members that they know.
And, you know, while some folks here may think that the media is trying to blame someone, that's not exactly how I certainly feel and many of my colleagues feel.
[20:15:34]
I mean, what we're trying to establish here in many of the conversations that were having with officials is exactly who was in charge in the overnight hours as this storm was brewing, as the rain was coming in, as some of the alerts were coming in, who was monitoring? Who in the emergency operation center was in charge at the moment that could have decided, okay, we need to start activating people. This could be a little more serious than we initially thought.
And that's what I sort of set out to try and get answers to today and we understand that the officials here are still dealing with so much and trying to conduct those rescues and find the missing. But one of the things that is so important in all of this is trying to figure out exactly who is in charge, where is the person or the people that should have been monitoring some of this.
And so, that's what we sort of set out to find out today. And no one, Anderson, was willing to answer that question so far. Maybe in the coming days they will. But certainly no one is answering that. You know, this is -- the area where this happened, Anderson, is part of the county, and that is a whole other set of rules and laws that are involved in this. And that is the county judge who oversees that area. And ultimately, it could have been up to him to decide whether or not to evacuate.
I even tried to go to him today because he wasn't at the press conference to ask him some questions, and he basically said he wouldn't speak to me because, you know, he called the media crooks and he wouldn't talk to us. So, that is some of the stonewalling that were getting here now. And it certainly is raising a lot of questions -- Anderson.
COOPER: Shimon Prokupecz, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
Coming up next, a couple who survived the flood, along with two sons, a neighbor and a dog, all on a rooftop with the river rushing by.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:21:51]
COOPER: Looking at video of a river surging dozens of feet above flood levels is terrifying enough. Seeing it up close from the rooftop of your home is almost unimaginable. That's our next guest did see it along with their children, a neighbor and their dog, Corey Jones and Spencer Offenbacker join us now. Corey, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. What can you tell us about the night of the storm? When did you realize what was going on?
COREY JONES, TEXAS FLOOD SURVIVOR: By the time I realized what was going on, the water was already at our door.
COOPER: Wow, how far from the river were you?
SPENCER OFFENBACKER, ESCAPED FLOODING BY CLIMBING ONTO ROOF OF HOME: About 200 yards. JONES: About 200 yards, we live about 200 yards away from Guadalupe.
COOPER: And Spencer, I know you shot a video of the aftermath at your home. Have you been able to get back there since then?
OFFENBACKER: We went back today, Anderson, and got an assessment. And from the looks of it, everything that we own is completely destroyed at this time.
COOPER: And Corey, you see water at the entrance to your home. So what do you do in a case like that? And how much time did you have to get on the roof?
JONES: I honestly, it happened so quick, but I see water, husband says, let's go and enough time to tell both my kids clothes on and out the back door to get on the roof.
OFFENBACKER: By the time we were climbing the ladder, the water was already at my waist. I stand at six-two. So, it went from us from zero to a hundred real fast. By the time we were grabbing the kids, water was already entering the house and filling up fast.
COOPER: How old are your kids?
JONES: Eighteen and eight.
COOPER: Wow, so, how long did you end up on the on the roof?
OFFENBACKER: We we're up there for quite a few several hours.
JONES: About two hours, I believe.
COOPER: And how are your kids doing now? How are they dealing with the situation? How are your neighbors doing?
JONES: My children are still scared. They have a hard time even hearing about it, even thinking about rain is scary to them. My neighbors are okay, thankfully. They've lost everything. It's really hard to drive back into my neighborhood and see my community so broken right now.
COOPER: And Spencer, have you ever seen anything like this before?
OFFENBACKER: My only experience with devastation before this, I went down after hurricane to volunteer and I'm a combat vet. I was deployed to Iraq and that it looks like a war zone in a sense, you're just missing the bullet holes and the destruction and the aftermath. Now, that we see it is -- it's pretty intense as well for sure.
COOPER: I know you have a GoFundMe page. We're putting the web address on the bottom of the screen. Corey Jones and Spencer Offenbacker, I appreciate your time and I'm glad you glad you're doing okay. Thank you so much.
JONES: Thank you, Anderson.
OFFENBACKER: Thank you, Anderson.
[20:25:19]
COOPER: For more information about how you can help Texas flood victims, you can also go to cnn.com/impact. There's a lot of organizations doing good work and you can find out about them.
Coming up next, Ukraine, Russia and a President exasperated it seems by Vladimir Putin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We get a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin if you want to know the truth?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also tonight, some of the President's top officials and what they said about the Jeffrey Epstein files before doing a 180 and saying, now there's really nothing to the story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:34]
COOPER: We heard a change in tone from the President today when it comes to Vladimir Putin. At a White House Cabinet meeting, President Trump had some blunt criticism of the Russian leader as efforts to get a peace deal with Ukraine show no progress.
This comes just a day after Mr. Trump reversed course on providing munitions to Ukraine, saying that the U.S. would again send defensive weapons. Just last week, his administration paused some weapons shipments, including air defense missiles. Tonight, CNN has new reporting that Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth did not inform the White House before authorizing that pause.
Our Kaitlan Collins asked the president about that today, but first, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We get a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin, for you want to know the truth. He's very nice all the time, but it turns out to be meaningless.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: CNN Anchor and Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins was at the meeting and joins us now. Kaitlan, fascinating to hear the president say, you know, it's meaningless. What did the president tell you about Russia and Ukraine?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and Anderson, it took very little prompting for the president to make the comment that he had there. And he essentially was unloading on Putin in a way that we really have not heard. We've seen him getting closer and closer to this, suggesting that maybe Putin is stringing him along.
But the way he kind of launched into that is really just revealing what we have been hearing privately that he has been saying behind the scenes to aides, as he's been trying to get a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine. And what he is seemingly coming to realize is what a lot of people have said for months and years, which is that Putin's just not interested in one, and he doesn't want to stop this war that he's carrying out.
And that is why we've seen this huge shift in the president, where he is saying now that he is going to send more weapons to Ukraine. But the reason that stood out so much when he said it last night was, it was just last week that the White House had confirmed that, yes, the Pentagon was pausing some shipments of munitions going to Ukraine.
And so I asked the president about, you know, what he said last night, what the Pentagon did last week, and that discrepancy there. And keep in mind, the person that is seated to his left here in this moment is the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
COLLINS: You want to send more weapons to Ukraine, as you said last night. Last week, the Pentagon paused some shipments of weapons to Ukraine. Did you approve of that pause?
TRUMP: We want to put defensive weapons because Putin is not treating human beings right. He's killing too many people. So we're sending some defensive weapons to Ukraine, and I've approved that.
COLLINS: So who ordered the pause last week?
TRUMP: I don't know. What don't you tell me?
COLLINS: I think that's a question for the Pentagon.
TRUMP: Go ahead, yes.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COLLINS: So, one, he sidestepped the question about whether or not he personally was aware of the pause and approved it. Obviously, Zach's -- Natasha's reporting tonight is that Hegseth did this on his own. But I thought it was notable, Anderson, that he didn't turn to Secretary Hegseth in that moment and ask him that question or try to find out an answer there. Instead, he moved on to another reporter as I was trying to follow up.
And so it does show, you know, the questions about this West Wing and the path that they are on when it comes to Ukraine and what page the Pentagon is on and whether or not it's the same as the president's here. Because, I mean, very clearly, as he laid out there, he does want more weapons going to Ukraine because of what Russia has been doing.
COOPER: That is a fascinating moment. I mean, you were gesturing to Hegseth, so if he had wanted to follow up very -- I mean, there was no doubt about it was the guy sitting next to him.
COLLINS: Well, and he's done that before, was kind of the situation. I mean, obviously, typically reporters direct our -- we direct our questions to the president. But earlier, a question had been directed toward the attorney general's way.
I've been in the Oval Office --
COOPER: That's right.
COLLINS: -- before where I've asked the president something and he's turned to whichever Cabinet secretary, it's their expertise there. I thought it was really telling that he did not do so in this situation.
COOPER: Yes. Kaitlan Collins, thanks very much. Kaitlan's going to be back at the top of the next hour anchoring The Source.
Joining us right now were New York Times White House Correspondent Maggie Haberman and former Trump White House Communications Director Alyssa Farah Griffin. Maggie, is it clear to you when and why -- I mean, do you think the president has changed his tune on Vladimir Putin? Is this just the latest chapter in this relationship?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The only change in tune is the one you are hearing out loud, Anderson, and that's what he's saying in the moment today. But he has been building toward this for the last couple of weeks. Remember, he said, I think it was around Memorial Day weekend, that he was absolutely considering sanctions on Russia, new sanctions on Russia.
He did not go ahead with those, and instead he continued to try to see if there was some other way to get Putin back to the table. It's clear that he has decided that there isn't absent this sort of more public presentation.
[20:35:06]
My sense is, just as Kaitlan's was, is that he wanted to say these things. He wanted to condemn Putin, but he condemned him much more fully than we've heard him do at any point in the last 10 years, and certainly than I expected him to do in a Cabinet meeting today.
Whether that just brings Putin back to the table, we'll see. But it's also important to remember, Anderson, this is happening right after the president said he was going to resume sending munitions to Ukraine. It is very clear that in suggesting that he might not continue to arm Ukraine, forget about the pause of the last two weeks, even prior to that, when the president has been a skeptic about aid to Ukraine, then you are leaving yourself with no leverage against Putin in trying to forge a deal here. He seems to have finally seen that.
COOPER: Alyssa, what do you make of this-- I mean, I don't know if calling it a shift is even accurate, to Maggie's point.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it feels like a remarkable about-face, but I think two things are going on here. I think President Trump is remarkably frustrated with Vladimir Putin. We all remember on the campaign trail he said he was going to be able to end this war on day one, and he's made efforts to. His team has been back-trailing with both the Ukrainians and the Russians.
They've been working to make a deal, and I think he is incredibly frustrated that Putin has continued his war of aggression against Ukraine. But there's also this part of Donald Trump that at times is a bit of a realist on foreign policy. And what I suspect is happening is when he was in the four years post-presidency, he was getting a lot of advice on how to handle Ukraine from campaign advisers who were telling him there's no path to victory here, the Russians have the upper hand, and now he's got the entire intelligence apparatus, which is probably showing him that the Ukrainians are really handily fighting back Russia, actually, you know, hurting their capabilities and really diminishing them.
And I think he sees that there is an opportunity to give them what he calls defensive weapons, and that's still a popular position with the majority of Americans. Sixty-five percent of Americans think we should be arming Ukraine.
So I think there's this part of him that's incredibly frustrated with Putin, but he also sees it as he's looking at these atrocities, and it's hard for him to keep making the case that this is, you know, no one side is to blame. It seems very clear the Russians are to blame.
COOPER: Maggie, how would it be possible that the president wouldn't know that the U.S. had stopped sending, or paused, or whatever you call it, weapons to -- more weapons to Ukraine?
HABERMAN: Just to go back to Alyssa's point real quick, I do think the president is getting -- is having trouble continuing to look at the death toll in Ukraine and not try to push Russia further. In terms of your question, I feel like there are still so many unanswered questions about exactly what happened here.
We have heard various versions of it. I know that CNN reported earlier that this was coming from DOD. Natasha Bertrand was correct in her reporting previously about what the Defense Intelligence Agency had shown in an early preliminary report about where it saw the immediate aftermath of the strikes on Iran.
You know, she put forward a multi-sourced story today. There still may be more to learn. It is hard to see that President Trump knew nothing about it, but not impossible. However, there was one person who could answer that question, two, actually.
One was President Trump, and Kaitlan tried, and he then said, you know, why don't you tell me, which, you know, she doesn't work for the administration. Pete Hegseth sat there, also did not say anything. So I think more will be revealed here. If the Pentagon did do this on its own, it's pretty astonishing. COOPER: Alyssa, what do you make of -- I mean, what do you make of the relationship with -- the president has with Hegseth? Do you have a sense of is he happy with him?
FARAH GRIFFIN: Listen, it's hard to say. I don't think anyone around the president is banking on Secretary Hegseth having a ton of longevity in this administration. There have been a lot of missteps from the early onset. But I also think Trump trusts his position on an issue like Ukraine more than any other adviser.
So I think what you're seeing at the Pentagon is you have people like Elbridge Colby, you have people like the Secretary of Defense, who think, perhaps thought that they were taking a Trump order by pausing this aid. They hearken back to what he was saying on the campaign trail.
But at the end of the day, Trump is going to be the decider of what happens. And I think that a distinction that's important is Trump does not like what he sees as blank checks to Ukraine. I think that's something that his base does not like. He feels a lot differently when it's specifically arms or even responding to aggression.
And when I saw this interaction with Kaitlan today, it made me think of 2018 when Syrian and Russian -- well, Syrian and Wagner Group forces, Russian-backed forces in Syria attacked U.S. troops without really blinking Donald Trump-authorized military force against them. We ended up killing 40 Russian Wagner Group mercenaries -- U.S. troops did.
There's this part of him that is willing to act quickly when he thinks that the U.S. is made to look weak or he thinks that one side is clearly being an aggressor. And I think that's the moment that we're in right now.
[20:40:10]
COOPER: Alyssa Farrah Griffin, Maggie Haberman, thank you.
Coming up next, the other moment from today's Cabinet meeting, what President Trump said when the name Jeffrey Epstein came up and why some of his closest supporters are now so upset.
And the Supreme Court hands the president another victory, this time over massive federal job cuts. Details ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:07]
COOPER: There's another moment that's getting a lot of attention from today's White House Cabinet meeting. It's when a reporter asked Attorney General Pam Bondi about a new Justice Department and FBI review of the Jeffrey Epstein case, which found that he did not have a client list and died by suicide in jail in 2019, awaiting trial in federal sex trafficking charges. Now, that's after seemingly teasing the Jeffrey Epstein files for months. Before she answered the reporter's question, the president pushed back.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
TRUMP: Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. You're asking -- we have Texas, we have this, we have all of the things. And are people still talking about this guy, this creep? That is unbelievable.
I mean, I can't believe you're asking a question on Epstein at a time like this where we're having some of the greatest success and also tragedy with what happened in Texas. It just seems like a desecration.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: That was the president today.
Our Randi Kaye has more on the reporting.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In February, Attorney General Pam Bondi was asked whether the Department of Justice would release accused sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein's so-called list of clients.
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that.
KAYE (voice-over): That was red meat for many on the far right, who since Epstein's death in his jail cell in 2019 have suggested that the government is hiding secrets related to him. One of the conspiracy theories? That Epstein kept a client list to use as blackmail against named powerful figures. Bondi did not discourage the conspiracies.
BONDI: What you're going to see, hopefully tomorrow, is a lot of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot of information.
KAYE (voice-over): Bondi never delivered, except to offer a few social media influencers' binders of documents in February this year, much of which had already been made public. She wasn't the only one throwing a bone to conspiracy-minded theorists in MAGA world. Here's Dan Bongino on his podcast before he became deputy FBI director.
DAN BONGINO, THE DAN BONGINO SHOW: What the hell are they hiding with Jeffrey Epstein?
KAYE (voice-over): Bongino also raised doubts about Epstein's jail cell suicide.
BONGINO: The questions surrounding this alleged suicide are numerous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. BONGINO: And are worth entertaining, and worth getting to the bottom of quickly.
KAYE (voice-over): The Department of Justice and the FBI have now put those questions to rest with an unsigned memo released this week that rules out any smoking gun. The memo confirms Epstein died by suicide, something Bongino and FBI Director Kash Patel were already starting to admit publicly.
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: You know a suicide when you see one, and that's what that was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He killed himself.
KAYE (voice-over): The memo also says there is no incriminating client list. Adding, "There was also no credible evidence found that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals as part of his actions."
KAYE: The backlash in MAGA world has been swift. Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones broke down in tears as he accused the White House of being part of a cover-up. And far-right activist Laura Loomer is calling on Bondi to resign.
KAYE (voice-over): Instead, today, Bondi suggested her earlier promise of a client list was misconstrued.
BONDI: My response was, it's sitting on my desk to be reviewed, meaning the file, along with the JFK, MLK files as well. That's what I meant by that.
KAYE (voice-over): Randi Kaye, CNN, Palm Beach County, Florida.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: And joining us now is Politico White House Bureau Chief Dasha Burns. She's been speaking to people close to the president who are calling for more accountability over the administration's handling of the Epstein controversy.
Dasha, it's interesting to hear the president, you know, saying, you know, essentially this is inappropriate to be talking about Jeffrey Epstein. It's people in MAGA world who have been talking about Jeffrey Epstein non-stop for years now. People have been putting out fake flight logs.
I was on a flight log that somehow randomly put out. I mean, anybody who was viewed as critical of President Trump in the first term suddenly wound up onto these phony flight logs that have been circulated all over the internet. So for him to suddenly now be saying how dare people are talking about this, it's kind of remarkable.
How is the White House trying to square the Justice Department's conclusions with conspiracy theories fanned by President Trump's allies?
DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: Including, by the way, Dan Bongino and Kash Patel who are now inside of the very deep state, as they called it, that they criticized for so many years. Look, the irony here is absolutely remarkable. And when you look at the MAGA base, like, this is one of those fundamental conspiracy theories that goes at the heart of this distrust of government, of the three-letter agencies, as a lot of folks in MAGA world call it.
[20:50:12]
And now that the representatives of MAGA are in those agencies and aren't delivering what people thought might be there because, well, they're just not seeing it, according to the documents that have been put out publicly, there's now this massive outcry. I mean, Laura Loomer was texting me yesterday saying she wants to see Pam Bondi fired.
I've been talking with MAGA influencers like Jack Posobiec, who was one of those influencers who got that binder, who, you know, flashed it at the White House saying, look at how we're uncovering all of this deep state information. And it turned out there was no bombshell in those binders. The DOJ called that phase 1.
And that's something that a lot of people like Jack are saying was a huge mistake because it kind of intimated there were all of these breadcrumbs that they were going to be following. And that breadcrumb trail ultimately led nowhere. And now you have this --
COOPER: Right.
BURNS: -- fury from the MAGA base.
COOPER: Yes, I mean, these people online have been making money off this conspiracy theory for years now. You know, their whole industry is based on it. Elon Musk obviously, you know, brought this back into the fore a couple of weeks ago in the first salvos of that feud. Where does this go from here? I mean, what do you think happens now?
BURNS: I mean, I don't think this is going away anytime soon. Again, because this just so goes to the heart of the culture and the ideology of this part of Trump's base. I think that Pam Bondi is going to be in trouble with them for a while.
What's been interesting, there was a lot of frustration online with the president's response today brushing off the Epstein question. People felt like it was a little bit tone deaf. But his base is still reticent to blame him for that.
Most of the ire has been directed at Pam Bondi and also at Kash Patel and Dan Bongino who Trump actually had to go on Truth Social and defend earlier this week kind of out of the blue, but anyone who's been watching knows where that's coming from. This is a firestorm that I think is going to keep going as especially there are other files, JFK and MLK and all of these other documents that the MAGA base has been waiting for that might not contain all of what they think --
COOPER: Yes.
BURNS: -- all of what they hoped it would.
COOPER: Yes. Dasha Burns, thank you so much. Appreciate it, Dasha. Thank you.
Coming up next, the Supreme Court hands the president another big win, this time affecting thousands of people's jobs. More on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:34]
COOPER: The Supreme Court may have just sealed the fate of thousands of federal workers and federal agencies now targeted by the Trump administration. In a decision announced late today, the court said the White House can move ahead with planned cuts.
Now, the order lifted a lower court ruling which blocked mass layoffs. Though the decision was unsigned, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson did write a public and pointed dissent.
Former Federal Prosecutor and Supreme Court Biographer Jeffrey Toobin joins me now. So this is technically a preliminary ruling, but in practice, it could have a sweeping impact, I understand. Do you think the president will also win on the merits?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I think it's going to get a little more complicated as it moves through the legal process. This decision basically allows the administration to make plans for layoffs. The layoffs themselves will be a separate issue and be the subject of separate litigation.
But, look, this is another win for the president. This one was 8 to 1 in the Supreme Court. And, you know, we're seeing as these early rulings, often against the president, are now moving through the legal process, they're winding up at the Supreme Court, and he's doing a lot better in the Supreme Court than he did in a lot of these district court rulings.
COOPER: As I mentioned, Justice Jackson publicly dissented. She calls -- called today's majority decision hubristic and senseless. She's gotten a lot of attention just in recent days for these sharp dissents, particularly after the court's decision that curtail the power of lower court judges to issue nationwide injunctions. Is there always some degree of tension at the end of a Supreme Court term, or does this feel different?
TOOBIN: Well, this is also Justice Jackson asserting herself essentially as the leader of the opposition, especially in a case like this one, where it was 8 to 1. You know, she has been almost always aligned with the two Barack Obama appointees, Justice Sotomayor and Justice Kagan, but she has staked out the position of being even more outraged and even more opposed to the president. The fact is, Trump is winning these cases 6 to 3, but Ketanji Brown Jackson clearly is trying to assert herself as the leader of the dissenters.
COOPER: I've got like 20 seconds left, but has there ever been a president in modern memory who had such a supportive supermajority in the court?
TOOBIN: Franklin Roosevelt got one eventually, but he had eight appointments to the court, and he completely changed the court to his advantage. But this court is shaping up to be a very pro-Trump court, and we're going to see a lot more decisions like this even over the summer, which is very rare for the Supreme Court.
COOPER: Yes.
TOOBIN: But there -- cases are coming very fast to the court right now.
COOPER: Jeff Toobin, thanks very much.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now. See you tomorrow.
