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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Deputy AG Says He will Continue Maxwell Interview for 2nd Day; Schumer Calls for an All-Senate Briefing on Epstein Files; Interview with Rep. Summer Lee (D-PA); Deputy AG Says He Will Continue Maxwell Interview For 2nd Day; Trump And Powell Clash Over Cost Of Fed's Renovation Project; Town's Plan To Seize Farm Ignites MAGA Firestorm; Iconic Wrestler Hulk Hogan Dead At The Age Of 71. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 24, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN BUSINESS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: ... performing for decades.
TERRY GENE BOLLEA, AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER, RING NAME HULK HOGAN: When it's in your blood, you'll do about anything to make it and get the job done.
ELAM: He died Thursday after paramedics were called to a cardiac arrest, he was 71.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: And thanks so much for joining us. AC360 begins now.
[20:00:32]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360 breaking news on the extraordinary meeting between Epstein co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell and the deputy attorney general. We just learned it's not over and will now continue tomorrow.
Plus, the President's feud with the Fed Chair Jerome Powell, burst into the open at the bank's headquarters with a twist the President might not have anticipated.
And remembering Hulk Hogan. The reign of Hulkamania and an entertainment industry that might never have existed without him.
Good evening, John Berman here in for Anderson.
The breaking news, a top Justice Department official met for hours and hours today with a woman convicted of conspiring with Jeffrey Epstein to sexually abuse minors. And we just learned moments ago he's not done yet. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche just tweeted, "Today I met with Ghislaine Maxwell and I will continue my interview of her tomorrow. The Department of Justice will share additional information about what we learned at the appropriate time." Now, there's obvious interest in what she said, but just as many questions about what was asked and maybe what was offered. That's a lot of talking. Blanche, the number two at the Justice Department and former defense attorney for President Trump, met with federal prisoner Ghislaine Maxwell at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Tallahassee. Maxwell is currently serving a 20-year sentence at the nearby federal correctional institution. This is video of her returning to prison after the meeting.
Blanche was sent, at least in part, to try to calm some of the furor among the President's supporters about how the administration has handled the Epstein controversy. Earlier this week, Blanche posted on social media "For the first time the Department of Justice is reaching out to Ghislaine Maxwell to ask, what do you know?"
Point of fact, it's not exactly the first time that the federal prosecutors have had contact with Ghislaine Maxwell. More on that in a moment. Maxwell's lawyer briefly spoke to reporters afterwards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MARKUS, ATTORNEY FOR GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Productive day today with the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell. First, we want to thank the Deputy Attorney General for being so professional with all of us and for meeting with us and he took a full day and asked a lot of questions. And Miss Maxwell answered every single question. She never stopped -- she never invoked a privilege. She never declined to answer. She answered all the questions truthfully, honestly, and to the best of her ability.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: She answered all the questions truthfully, he said. But what questions? And about whom? Concern over Maxwell's honesty had been raised before by the Justice Department when they charged, tried and convicted her for sex trafficking of a minor and other offenses.
In other words, the first time they asked Maxwell what she knew and recommending, she spent 20 years in prison, DOJ wrote a scathing sentencing memo which included, "... the defendant has lied repeatedly about her crimes, exhibited an utter failure to accept responsibility, and demonstrated repeated disrespect for the law and the court".
Later on, federal prosecutors wrote, simply put, "The defendant lies when it suits her." Another way to sum up today's meeting, serial liar meets with President Trump's former defense attorney. And it's not just the federal prosecutors who secured her conviction that question her credibility. Speaker of the House Mike Johnson also seems to have concerns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Could she be counted on to tell the truth? Is she a credible witness? I mean, this is a person who's been sentenced to many, many years in prison for terrible unspeakable conspiratorial acts and acts against innocent young people. I mean, can we trust what she's going to say?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: That's the same Speaker Mike Johnson, who sent the House home early for its summer recess rather than hold a floor vote on releasing any Epstein information. Despite that, some in his conference continue to defy him and pressed forward with both asking Ghislaine Maxwell their own questions and voting to issue a subpoena to the Justice Department for the Epstein files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): August 11th is the date when we hope to depose Maxwell in that prison facility in Tallahassee. The others that happened yesterday, we're going to move quickly on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So move quickly on that, in reference to the DOJ's subpoena. Meanwhile, video has surfaced online of Jeffrey Epstein being deposed back in 2010. From a transcript of the deposition, we know that Epstein was asked a number of questions on a myriad of topics for which he pled the fifth many times, including this one about then citizen Donald Trump.
[20:05:10]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever had a personal relationship with Donald Trump?
JEFFREY EPSTEIN, AMERICAN FINANCIER AND CHILD SEX OFFENDER: What do you mean by personal relationships?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you socialized with him?
EPSTEIN: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes?
EPSTEIN: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever socialized with Donald Trump in the presence of females under the age of 18?
EPSTEIN: Though I'd like to answer that question at least today, I'm going to have to assert my fifth, sixth and 14th Amendment right, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Now, to be clear, President Trump has not been accused of any wrongdoing related to his relationship with Epstein. As far as the President's schedule today, he had an outing to the Federal Reserve, in theory, to oversee the ongoing renovations of its headquarters with embattled Fed Chair Jerome Powell. In practice, it might be seen as the next stop on the anything but Epstein tour and the President definitely created a spectacle to talk about. Maybe inadvertently, when he learned in real time -- in a real time fact check about the cost of the project.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It looks like it's about $3.1 billion, it went up a little bit or a lot. So the $2.7 is now $3.1 and --
JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL CHAIR: I'm not aware of that.
TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.
POWELL: I haven't heard that from anybody at the fed.
TRUMP: It just came out.
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): I never said about $3.1 as well, 3.1, 3.2.
POWELL: This came from us?
TRUMP: Yes. I don't know who does that.
POWELL: Are you including the Martin renovation? You just added --
SCOTT: That's our entire capital.
POWELL: Yeah, you just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building.
TRUMP: But it's a building that's being built.
POWELL: No, it's been -- it was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago.
TRUMP: It's part of the overall work.
POWELL: It's not new.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Later on, the President was asked as a real estate developer, what he would do to a project manager who was over budget. His answer was I'd fire him.
For more on all of this, CNN's chief White House correspondent anchor of "The Source", Kaitlan Collins is with us now. Kaitlan, great to see you. Is it clear exactly what the White House hopes the Maxwell- Blanche meeting will lead to as it heads into this rather remarkable second day?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It's not clear and it's not clear what they are ultimately going to produce from this meeting. I mean, you saw that statement that was brief from the Deputy Attorney General saying that there will be a second day of meetings and saying that the Department of Justice will determine what appropriate information from these meetings, what they learn to make public. Of course, that is where he works. And so, that will be a decision that is up to the Deputy Attorney General who's been in these meetings all day today and the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, herself.
And so, it's not really clear, John, what that's going to look like or even what they're trying to get out of this and what they could learn from Ghislaine Maxwell, that would that would really change the dynamic here.
I was speaking with one Republican Senator last night and asked, you know, would it be a better idea to speak with the victims here if you were trying to learn more about what Jeffrey Epstein was up to and what he was doing, rather than the woman who is convicted of sex trafficking. And, of course, sitting in that correctional facility in Florida.
It is clear, John, what she could get out of this -- pardon or reduction in her sentence. Those are things that it still remains to be seen if they're actually even on the table here. It's not been made clear to us yet from the White House and the President has kind of distanced himself from this meeting, saying that it's up to the Department of Justice here, but that really is going to be the question, John, of whether or not this is something that continues to keep this in the headlines, which the White House very much does not want and yet has been unable to kind of change the narrative and whether or not there is a result here that only inflames and angers the MAGA base more than they've already been by the DOJ's handling of this whole situation.
So, there are a lot of unanswered questions by this, but I've been talking to people who are allies of the Presidents or who work in the administration, who have said it is not clear to them what exactly the White House is trying to get out of meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell.
BERMAN: Yes, again, as I said, it will be just as interesting if we ever learn what she said as to what Todd Blanche actually asked her. Kaitlan Collins great to see you. We'll see you at the top of the hour for "The Source".
Another bit of breaking news. It has to do with that alleged 2003 birthday book purportedly assembled for Jeffrey Epstein and containing messages from some of his friends. "The Wall Street Journal" reported last week that then citizen Donald Trump contributed a body drawing and message. The President denied it, said it's a fake, and promptly moved to sue "The Wall Street Journal".
Tonight, the newspaper is reporting that the book contained well- wishes from other famous people, including former President Bill Clinton, the former president's office declined to comment on the birthday message, but pointed to the point of "The Journal" to a previous statement saying that Mr. Clinton cut ties with Epstein more than a decade before Epstein was arrested in 2019 and knew nothing of his crimes. With us now, CNN anchor chief legal analyst Laura Coates, former chief judge for the U.S. Middle District Court of Pennsylvania John E. Jones and former FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe. And Laura, let me just start with you, the fact that there's going to be a second day of discussions between the deputy attorney general and convicted felon Ghislaine Maxwell. What does that tell you, and again, where are you on what interests you more? What Maxwell is saying or maybe what Todd Blanche is asking?
[20:10:27]
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: What does it tell me that the deputy attorney general has enough free time to meet with an incarcerated individual in Florida, as opposed to any other matter? It tells you there's an extraordinary political pressure that is mounting to essentially force this to happen. I have real concerns, of course, as anyone would, knowing that she has already been, they did not ultimately pursue this. But Ghislaine Maxwell perjury was on the table at one point before the sex trafficking charges.
The government, one of the offices of the U.S. attorneys, had legitimate concerns about her ability to be truthful, not about matters about, you know, nuances. Was it this date or that date, but about the overall substance of the charges against Jeffrey Epstein, whether she had ever seen him in this behavior, whether she knew anything about it going right to the heart of the matter.
And so, him having this opportunity to meet with her and saying they've never spoken to her before, the audience should know it is not uncommon that when somebody is a defendant and they have counsel and they do not have free conversations with the prosecutor who is actually prosecuting them, they are reserved, they want to know if there's a plea offer on the table, if there is not one. They have little to no incentive to actually be forthcoming.
Now, I wonder what might be on the table for her to do that. Would it be a commutation or a pardon recommended? Could it be that she is not hopeful that the Supreme Court will take her matter where she's already said, look, I should never have been prosecuted because that Florida prosecuting sweetheart deal that went to Epstein said it wouldn't actually prosecute a coconspirator, read Ghislaine Maxwell.
BERMAN: So Andrew, you know, how unusual is a meeting like this in the first place? And how confident are you that someone in the room is recording the interview? Either by video or taking contemporaneous notes? Will we actually learn exactly what was asked?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's a great question, John. So, the first question, how common is this? Never happens, never, ever, ever, in my 21 years in the FBI, never, I'm not familiar with a single instance in which the Deputy Attorney General traveled to a federal prison to participate in the interview of a convict. It just -- it's not the Deputy Attorney General's role, right.
Typically, this does happen in some high profile cases. Somebody gets convicted and then they decide they want to cooperate and to pursue what we refer to as a Rule 35 sentence reduction. It's a possibility if you can contribute substantial assistance after the fact of your conviction. But it's something that the line attorney who handled your case, who took you to trial, who convicted you of those crimes, that attorney is the person who is most best positioned to evaluate the truth and veracity of what you've now decided to reveal to the government.
Unfortunately, in this case, that attorney got fired last week. Maurene Comey, so, none of these -- the details around this interview are common or normal in any stretch. I think it's -- Laura is absolutely right. The question is what's the motivation here for the Department of Justice? Ghislaine Maxwell, clearly, her motivation is to get out from under a 20-year sentence in one way or another. And so, I would expect that her lawyers, who are very capable or pursuing any sort of relief from that, whether its Rule 35 or pardon or anything else, but it's not clear what the department gets out of this.
Presumably, she's a source that's never talked to them before, never. She's consistently, you know, is thought to have lied and not revealed what she knows. So, maybe they'll find out some new information here. But I think our chances of learning about what they find out is very slim to none. Because if they actually get good information, they're going to want to work with that. They're not going to release it to the public.
BERMAN: And, Judge Jones, how significant is it that, according to Maxwell's attorney, she didn't invoke privilege and answered every question from Todd Blanche?
JOHN E. JONES, FORMER CHIEF JUDGE FOR THE U.S. MIDDLE DISTRICT COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA: I'm not sure, John, that it's that significant, because I think that she is sort of queen for a day or several days and nothing that she's saying can be used against her. And of course, she's already been convicted. But here's the question I have. You know, it's been said by Maxwell's attorney that there were no real plea negotiations. That's fine so far as it goes.
But it begs the question, as my co-panelists know, typically when someone is charged like this with federal crimes, the U.S. attorney asked for a proffer. Does your client want a proffer? Meaning that they'll take a statement, the government will take a statement from her, and she'll be protected from use of that statement against her to see if she's got anything that's useful that can be used, that she can become a cooperator and lessen her sentencing exposure.
Now, I have to believe that happened in informal discussions. So, you have a couple scenarios. One is, she decides she didn't want to proffer or the other scenario is she proffered and she was found to be so unreliable that she didn't have anything they could use. And I suspect that could be what happened here. So, query then if that's what happened, how are you going to spend two days with her to mine a bunch of other information when she's been found to be unreliable to the point of perjury?
[20:15:54]
This, and I agree with Andrew, this is really bizarre. This is unprecedented in, you know, 20 years in the federal bench and 22 years before that as a lawyer, I've never seen anything like this. It's a post-conviction kind of a proffer. You know, but for what? And for what use? It's quite unusual.
BERMAN: And again, that's why it's so compelling to try to find out what actually took place inside that room.
Laura, back to the alleged 2003 birthday book for Epstein, which President Trump is suing "The Wall Street Journal" -- over "The Journal" tonight in its article about other famous people who contributed messages, says that the album is in the possession of Epstein's estate. So, again, is this estate going to have to produce the book one way or the other? If it is the center -- at the center of this lawsuit by Donald Trump against "The Wall Street Journal"?
COATES: I mean, ultimately, the discovery process of any litigation is really the core of the matter. You want to be able to understand whether "The Wall Street Journal", which is required under a defamation of a high profile and well-known public figure like Donald Trump, whether they had actual malice. Had they reviewed some document to confirm and corroborate what they're actually reporting to the public? Did they have some reason to believe it was not true and reported it anyway? And do they have some malice toward Trump such that they didn't care what the actual truth was?
That would all come into the discovery process, and its likely well be able to see at least some modicum of what "The Wall Street Journal" relied on. The estate, however, is not currently party to the litigation, as I understand it. And so, as long as the matter remains between the two, there's a little bit of a standstill in terms of how "The Wall Street Journal" could prove that it was not actual malice. And of course, the longer discovery goes on, there could be other little breadcrumbs around there that could lead to a different discussion. If there's something also unfavorable in there.
BERMAN: All right. Laura Coates, Judge Jones, Andrew McCabe, thank you all. Do not miss "Laura Coates Live" tonight at 11:00 P.M. Eastern right here on CNN. We're going to have a lot to talk about.
Next for us, the growing push on Capitol Hill by lawmakers on both sides of the aisle now to get the Epstein files released, I'm going to speak with the Ranking Member on the House Oversight Committee who saw three Republicans join her and other Democrats in a vote to subpoena the Justice Department for all the records.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:30]
BERMAN: The bipartisan push on Capitol Hill to force the Trump administration to provide more information on the Epstein investigation is intensifying. Today, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer demanded an all Senate briefing on Justice Department files. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D-NY): The Senate deserves to hear directly from senior administration officials about Donald Trump's name appearing in these files, and the complete lack of transparency shown to date.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: This, as the pressure is mounting against House Speaker Mike Johnson from members of both parties to disclose more information. In an interview with CBS, Johnson claimed he wants full transparency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: We want full transparency. We want everybody who is involved in any way with the Epstein evils, let's call it what it was to be brought to justice as quickly as possible. We want the full weight of the law on their heads.
MAJOR GARRETT, CBS NEWS: This is not a hoax, in other words.
JOHNSON: It's not a hoax, of course, not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: This all comes after a surprise victory yesterday, led by the top Democrat in the Republican led House Oversight Subcommittee to subpoena the Justice Department for Epstein files. The motion passed eight to two, with three Republicans joining Democrats.
With us now is Congresswoman Summer Lee, a Democrat from Pennsylvania, who introduced the motion. Congresswoman, thanks so much for being with us. Before I ask you about your congressional action, I just want your reaction to Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche and the announcement that his interview with Ghislaine Maxwell will continue to a second day tomorrow. What questions do you have about that?
REP. SUMMER LEE (D-PA): You know, I think that, you know, Democrats I know, I certainly do, you know, I think that people want to hear from Ghislaine Maxwell. But I do think it's important to put it into perspective, right. As we're going through this, right, we recognize that she's someone -- A, who is not going to be a credible witness at this at this time, right, she's somebody who has something to gain by possibly protecting the President, by protecting other powerful people. In turn, in hopes of maybe getting out, right.
So, I think that the reason why we're pushing for the full Epstein files is because we need that corroborative evidence right now. It is not to say that we don't want to hear from her. We want to hear the whole story, but we want to make sure that were getting as much credible information as we can from this. So, yes, we want to see that. I look forward to the deposition with the House Oversight Committee, of course, but also we're looking forward to the full files.
BERMAN: Do you think Maxwell has some kind of incentive to protect the President?
LEE: I think it's a possibility, right. When we think about the way, the ways in which the President has kind of just, like, handed out pardons and commutations, you know, like candy, right. This is somebody who, if what information we have, true and there's been a lot that has leaked not just over the years, but this very week about the President being briefed that he shows up on the list multiple times.
If that's true, and he is inclined to give pardons for those who, you know, maybe help him to continue to uncover this. I think it's very clear that the President does not want this out. I think it's clear from his complete 180 on the topic that there is something to hide. I think just from the clip from Mike Johnson, right. Even he's now saying that there's something there.
So, if I were you know, think that we can all reasonably believe that, right, Ghislaine Maxwell, who probably does not want to live the rest of her life in prison, would maybe think that this is her one shot, if not her final shot at some sort of relief or freedom.
[20:25:54]
BERMAN: Just one point, in fact here, the reporting is that the President was told that his name is in the Jeffrey Epstein files. That in and of itself doesn't imply any wrongdoing. It also isn't clear that it was on any kind of list one way or the other. The word list has ended up being a little bit of a loaded word with Jeffrey Epstein, but we just -- we always told, we know he was told his name was in the files. How much do you think -- how much compliance do you think you will get from the Justice Department in your subpoena for the files?
LEE: So, certainly, right. We expect that the DOJ will, you know, do its job, this was a lawful subpoena that we were issued. We have the legal authority to do that. It was bipartisan, and we expected that it will be signed by Comer and then go to the DOJ.
Now, of course, if they were to not comply, I think that would be incredibly concerning. But I think that, you know, one of the things that we have right now in this moment is that the American people want to see this. So, I think that in the past, right, where we've seen a lot of executive overreach, you know, a lot of opportunities or things that, you know, if the executive branch doesn't see it as a priority, they've been able to shift it aside, but they've been able to do that because the American people have largely turned a blind eye. And right now they're not.
They are fully in tuned on this. I think that people across the aisle, constituents, their own base is calling for this and despite all the noise, they've not been deterred. So, I think that the DOJ is going to have a really tough time not complying right now. So, we'll take it as it comes. We, just, as an Oversight Committee since, you know, our communication with Comer obviously, asking that they do this expeditiously but that also that they make it known that the oversight committee will use every, you know, every, you know, power at our disposal to make this comply.
BERMAN: Right, Congresswoman Summer Lee from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, thank you for your time tonight.
Again, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche will continue interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell on Friday. Her ties to Jeffrey Epstein go back decades. Her meeting today with the Deputy Attorney General comes just days after a federal judge denied the DOJ's request to unseal some additional grand jury transcripts in the Epstein case.
Maxwell is appealing her conviction and recently asked the Supreme Court to take up her case. For more on her ties to Epstein and her roles up to this point, here's CNN's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AUDREY STRAUSS, ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Maxwell was among Epstein's closest associates and helped him exploit girls who were as young as 14-years old.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Ghislaine Maxwell, a friend and former lover of Jeffrey Epstein's. She dated the accused sex trafficker in the 1990s, and the two remained close. Federal investigators accused Maxwell of serving as Epstein's madam, recruiting young girls for Epstein to abuse, and taking part in the abuse herself.
STRAUSS: She pretended to be a woman they could trust. All the while she was setting them up to be sexually abused by Epstein and in some cases by Maxwell herself.
KAYE (voice over): Long before that, Maxwell had a privileged life in the English countryside where she grew up. She's the daughter of Czech born newspaper tycoon Robert Maxwell, who died in 1991 after falling off his luxury yacht near the Canary Islands. Multiple people say Maxwell introduced Epstein to affluent social circles. Maxwell's own exclusive circle included then future President Donald Trump, seen together here in this photo from 2000.
Alongside him, Melania, who he was dating at the time, and Jeffrey Epstein. That's Maxwell in the background of this photograph of Prince Andrew with Virginia Roberts, who later became Virginia Giuffre. She had alleged she was trafficked by Epstein with the help of Maxwell, and forced to have sex with Prince Andrew when she was 17. The Prince emphatically denied all of it and settled Giuffre's lawsuit against him for an undisclosed amount. Giuffre died earlier this year by suicide.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Breaking news, just into CNN, longtime Jeffrey Epstein confidante and friend Ghislaine Maxwell has been arrested.
KAYE (voice over): In July of 2020, the year after Epstein took his life in jail, Maxwell was arrested in New Hampshire. She was charged with six counts, including one count of sex trafficking children. She pleaded not guilty, yet, at her 2021 trial, four women alleged that Epstein sexually abused them and that Maxwell not only helped facilitate, but also participated in some of the abuse between 1994 and 2004. The women were under 18 at the time. Maxwell was found guilty of five of the six charges against her, including the most serious charge of sex trafficking a girl named Carolyn, when she said she was just 14-years old. Carolyn had told the court she participated in sexualized massages with Epstein and recruited other young girls for him. Carolyn recalled how Maxwell groped her naked body, telling her she had a great body for Epstein and his friends.
In court, the defense tried to portray Maxwell as a scapegoat.
[20:30:55]
BOBBI STERNHEIM, GHISLAINE MAXWELL TRIAL ATTORNEY: Clever and cunning to the end, Jeffrey Epstein left Ghislaine Maxwell holding the whole bag.
KAYE (voice-over): Maxwell was sentenced to 20 years in federal prison, but appealed her sex trafficking conviction.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
KAYE (on-camera): For now, Maxwell will continue serving time here in Florida. She's behind bars at FCI Tallahassee, a low security federal correctional institution with a detention center. Her scheduled release date, July 17th, 2037.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Palm Beach County, Florida.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And next, the extraordinary clash today between President Trump and Fed Chair Jerome Powell.
Also tonight, MAGA world comes to the defense of a New Jersey farm owner fighting an eminent domain seizure of his land for affordable housing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:36:27]
BERMAN: President Trump's feud with Fed Chair Jerome Powell was on public display today as the two men toured the renovation site of the Central Bank's Washington, D.C. headquarters. We're going to play for you again the moment when President Trump confronted Powell about the cost of the project.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It looks like it's about $3.1 billion, went up a little bit, or a lot. So the $2.7 billion is now $3.1 billion. And --
JEROME POWELL, FED CHAIR: I'm not aware of that.
TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.
POWELL: Yes, I don't -- I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed. TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our notes said about $3.1 billion as well.
TRUMP: $3.1 billion --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: $3.1 billion, $3.2 billion.
POWELL: This came from us?
TRUMP: Yes. I don't know who does that.
POWELL: Are you including the Martin renovation? You just said --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's our entire capital --
POWELL: You just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building --
TRUMP: Right now, but it's a building that's being built.
POWELL: No, it's been -- it was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Martin is over.
TRUMP: It's part of the overall look. So --
POWELL: It's not new.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: The president has become highly critical of the price tag of the renovations, which are estimated to cost $2.5 billion. That's very different than the $3.1 billion figure the president claimed today, although, according to Powell, that's including the price of an additional building that was completed years ago.
Now, the timing of the tour and the criticism of the cost are notable, as the president has toyed for weeks with the idea of firing Powell. The president's dissatisfaction stems from his long held belief that the Fed share should lower interest rates. Any kind of pressure by a sitting president on the independent central bank is highly unusual. Even the fact that the president traveled to the Fed headquarters today is notable. The last president to do so was George W. Bush in 2006.
With us now is Larry Summers, a former Treasury Secretary during the Clinton administration and the former director of the White House National Economic Council under President Obama. Secretary, thanks so much for being with us. What went through your head when you were watching the Fed share fact check the president in real time over the cost of the renovations?
LAWRENCE SUMMERS, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY, CLINTON ADMIN.: It's not a scene like anything that I've seen before in many years in Washington. I don't really understand why the president of the United States and the chairman of the Federal Reserve are negotiating or discussing building procedures and building costs. But here's what's really important.
If there's a sense that the Fed is going to yield to political pressure and make money easier, the market's going to see that and it's all going to backfire. Maybe interest rates will be a bit lower in the short run. But in the long run, because people will see that that leads to more inflation, interest rates will go up.
So it's not about whether it's the right or wrong thing to do to bash the Fed, it's a fool's game for politicians, because if anybody thinks you have a chance of succeeding, actually interest rates, the interest rates that are important, the longer term interest rates that affect when corporations borrow are more important, that affect when individuals borrow to buy a house, mortgage rates go up.
So I don't think this is a prudent strategy for the president to pursue, independent of the merits of the question. I think it's playing a very, very dangerous game to raise doubts about the independence of the Fed.
BERMAN: You talked about the idea if the markets see the Fed being pressured.
[20:40:03]
I want to play a little bit more of the tour. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- today that would make you back off some of the earlier criticism?
TRUMP: Well, I'd love him to lower interest rates. Other than that, what can I tell you?
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: I don't know if you actually saw the physical backslap there. I don't know if one could say the president is literally trying to strongarm the Fed chair into lowering interest rates. But what about the dynamics in the body language between the two? How will that be perceived when it comes to Fed independence?
SUMMERS: I think right now, people expect that Jay Powell's going to do his duty as he sees it. And it's not only him, it's a 12-member committee that votes on monetary policy. And I think right now people expect that they will do their job and find the best balance they can between the risks of inflation and unemployment.
I don't think anybody thinks that the kind of huge reduction in interest rates, two percentage points, three percentage points, that the president has called for, I don't think anybody thinks it's likely that that's going to happen. If people started to think that would happen, I think you'd see huge turmoil in markets. I think you'd see mortgage rates go way up. I think you'd see the dollar go way down. I suspect you'd see the stock market go way down as well. But I don't think people are seeing this as a serious threat that the president is really going to control or change the picture in a major way at the Fed.
After all, the president made clear today and has made clear in the past that it's not his intention to replace Chair Powell. I think what the president is really doing, John, is not so much trying to influence monetary policy as he's setting himself up to have a scapegoat if the economy goes bad.
If the economy goes bad, people are going to blame it on his tariff policies, and that's probably going to be the reason it went bad. But he's setting up to be able to blame it on the Fed. That's what I think this is all really about.
BERMAN: Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers, always great to speak with you. Thank you very much.
SUMMERS: Good to be with you.
BERMAN: Next, the MAGA storm that followed after a New Jersey town said it planned to seize a farm under eminent domain and develop it into affordable housing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:21]
BERMAN: The fight to save one family's farm in New Jersey has turned into a MAGA flashpoint. Cranbury Township is planning to use eminent domain to build state-mandated affordable housing on the property if the owners won't sell the family farm, and they say it's not for sale. Now their face-off with the township has garnered attention from the Trump administration.
CNN's Meena Duerson reports from Cranbury, New Jersey.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
ANDY HENRY, FARM OWNER: When I grew up, none of the fencing, none of the warehouses were here. It was all open fields. It was just heavenly.
MEENA DUERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This farm in Cranbury, New Jersey, has been in Andy Henry's family since before the Civil War. Now he's in danger of losing it to eminent domain. The town wants it for affordable housing.
HENRY: They were talking about four buildings, I think, like probably three-story.
DUERSON: It's kind of hard to imagine.
HENRY: I don't want to imagine it. It's hard to think about. DUERSON (voice-over): Henry launched a campaign to save the farm, which quickly got national attention and became a rallying cry for MAGA supporters around the country who flooded the town government with verbal abuse.
What kinds of things do people say?
MATT SCOTT, CRANBURY TOWNSHIP COMMITTEEMAN: Can I curse?
DUERSON: Yes, go ahead.
SCOTT: OK. You f-ing commie (ph) libtards. You know, what the -- do you think you're doing? You're not American. You're just, you know, stealing from the taxpayer. You need to give that f-ing farm back.
DUERSON (voice-over): Matt Scott serves on the township committee that helped pick the farm as a building site.
SCOTT: I don't blame people. People are pissed, generally, in the country. They feel like the governing structures are not listening. All they hear is that this five-Democrat member committee in this town is seizing this hardworking farmer's, you know, family legacy. I think it's an easy target for people.
DUERSON (voice-over): The story even caught the eye of the Trump administration. Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins blasted it as a Biden-style takeover and called Henry on the phone.
HENRY: It was nice to have that kind of high-level support, of course. I was here just trying to take care of the property, and here I am all over the Internet. It's mind-boggling. It really is.
DUERSON: Is this a political issue to you?
HENRY: Well, I'm trying to make sure it is not a political issue. If you're a Republican, a Democrat, a Bernie supporter, an Independent, I don't think anybody wants people to come in here and say, we're going to take your property because a developer wants it.
DUERSON (voice-over): The township committee is just doing its job. State law requires every municipality in New Jersey to build a set amount of affordable housing. Funding is contingent upon following a narrow set of location requirements.
SCOTT: And this was one of the sites that we looked at.
DUERSON (voice-over): Which Scott says eliminated the other options they reviewed.
SCOTT: When we started the process and you look at the map, it looked like, oh, this will be a no-brainer. The actual, like, viability of the property as far as its size, they weren't viable.
DUERSON (voice-over): Henry and his brother live in New Mexico and rent the land to a local farmer.
[20:50:03]
Township efforts to reach the brothers went unanswered. Until one day, Henry showed up at a committee meeting.
SCOTT: I felt terrible. I was like, wow, there has to be another option. You know, there's no other option. We've vetted all these properties and this is what we're stuck with.
DUERSON: Why go the eminent domain path?
SCOTT: None of us wanted to eminent domain. Had no desire to do that. If they don't want to sell, that's kind of where we're at.
DUERSON (voice-over): The council had to file its housing plan by June 30th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I also want to add, shame on Matt, shame on Robert, shame on Deborah, shame on Lisa.
DUERSON (voice-over): As the deadline approached, town meetings turned tense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When a man has a farm for 150 years and you want to take it?
DUERSON: Do you feel like the bad guy in this story?
SCOTT: No, I don't. I empathize 100 percent with the Henry brothers. Again, I feel like the greater good is what my responsibility is towards them.
DUERSON (voice-over): The town's final plan, which now sits with a state judge, calls for half of the farm's 21 acres. Even if the town forcibly takes the land, it would have to pay market value.
Meanwhile, the Henry brothers applied to protect their property through a state farmland preservation program and filed a lawsuit aiming to block eminent domain.
DUERSON: Do you think you're going to win this fight?
HENRY: I do think so, but they have to build affordable housing, yes. And we're not opposed to that. It's how much and where.
DUERSON: What is your hope for how this situation resolves?
HENRY: Well, obviously we want to keep our entire property. I'd like to see some of the divisions in town heal. My ancestors are kind of still here. I kind of feel their presence. That's why we don't want to give it up.
It's just like a part of us, you know. That's all I can say. It's just a part of us.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BERMAN: A lot going on here. Meena Duerson is with us now. So what happens next?
DUERSON (on-camera): So things are heating up there. Andy Henry got a letter last week that the town would like to move forward with an appraisal, which is the next step in eminent domain. He thought, you know, getting so much attention would maybe pump the brakes on that process, but that is the next step, so it is moving forward.
But everyone we spoke to said, you know, this issue has now gotten so much attention. There's, you know, with the pressure from the Trump administration checking in, there's a lot of eyes on this, and everyone involved, including the town committee, is optimistic that another solution will emerge.
Someone will maybe sell them the property that wasn't open to it before, or a state law might change that might open up some funding, that might open up some other options. So no one wants the farm to have to be seized, but it is moving that direction.
BERMAN: A lot of twists in that story, Meena. Thank you very much.
BERMAN: All right, next, the death of probably the biggest wrestling star of all time, Hulk Hogan, gone at the age of 71.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:12]
BERMAN: Iconic professional wrestler Hulk Hogan died today at the age of 71. This after authorities said there was a report of someone in cardiac arrest in his Florida home. Hulk, whose real name was Terry Bollea, rose to fame in the 1980s and is widely considered the biggest wrestling star of all time. He was known for flexing his 24-inch biceps. I think he called them his pythons and his signature move of ripping off his T-shirt.
With us now is Mark Raimondi, he's the author of a book about professional wrestling and Hulk Hogan called, "Say Hello to the Bad Guys." Mark, thanks so much for being with us tonight. Just how central was Hulk Hogan in what professional wrestling ultimately became?
MARK RAIMONDI, ESPN REPORTER: Incredibly central because I'm not sure if there would be a professional wrestling industry the way it is now. Multi-billion dollars, WWE on Netflix without Hulk Hogan. Because in 1985, when he headlined WrestleMania I, wrestling was splintered. It was a regional business that, you know, had different promotions in different areas of the country that were popular in those areas but not nationally.
And WrestleMania I changed that and Hulk Hogan was the front man. And then, in the 90s, he did kind of the same thing again. The business was struggling. He turned into a bad guy and he led the business into another incredible, you know, boom period.
So, you know, for a guy to have two different runs in two different decades like that, no one has sold more tickets in the history of wrestling than Hulk Hogan. So, maybe the greatest of all time.
BERMAN: Well, I mean, just about every dude my age can tell you about when Hulk Hogan body slammed Andre the Giant. And almost every dude my age can tell you about when he turned heel. You know, what was it about him that made him different as an entertainer?
RAIMONDI: Yes. It's so interesting because wrestling is a complicated business. But the one thing that it has that other entertainment mediums don't is the real-time feedback from fans. They're in front of arenas every single week, John. And they're able to hear and listen to the fans and kind of go in the direction the fans want them to go or the opposite depending on, you know, what the storyline calls for.
And there was no one better in the history of wrestling than reading what the fans wanted than Hulk Hogan. And as far as the 80s go, he looked like a superhero. He was the -- in the ilk of a Stallone or Schwarzenegger with the physique and the blonde hair and the blue eyes, the iconic Fu Manchu. There was just something special about him. He had a lot of charisma.
And then again in the 90s, he used that and parlayed it into a run as a bad guy --
BERMAN: Yes.
RAIMONDI: -- for a lot of the same reasons. He became the protagonist even as a bad guy for the first time in wrestling history. That was -- that became a thing.
BERMAN: And very quickly, he wasn't without controversy, right? I mean, in the middle of the Gawker lawsuit and then a string of racial slurs led him to be actually pushed out of the industry for a bit. How does that impact his legacy?
RAIMONDI: It impacts it, certainly. There's no doubt about it. I think that, you know, one of the things that's complicated about wrestling is, you know, where does the character end and the real person begin? You know, we're talking about a guy named Hulk Hogan. That wasn't his real name as you mentioned at the top. It was Terry Bollea.
So, I would say that Terry Bollea probably made a lot of mistakes in his life. Probably a lot of things that he probably regretted at the end. And -- but Hulk Hogan as a character, there's no doubting the legacy of what he was able to do for the professional wrestling business.
BERMAN: Mark Raimondi, we appreciate so much you being with us and explaining to people who may not have been a boy in the 1980s what Hulk Hogan meant.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts right now.
