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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Maxwell Granted Limited Immunity To Talk To DOJ; Trump Says "Never Briefed" On his Name Being In Files Aired; Victims' Families, Friends Address Killer Directly In Court; U.N. Worker: People In Gaza Resemble "Walking Corpses"; Demonstrators In Israel Protest Against Starvation In Gaza; Gaza Death Toll Rising Due To Starvation; Ireland Is Opening Mass Grave Of Almost 800 Babies & Children. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired July 25, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They want the world and their own people to be ready.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY: The big question, could these massive military drills influence Taiwan voters, was that the point? We'll soon find out, Erin, because Taiwan's biggest ever recall vote is about to get underway, seconds from now, at 8:00 A.M. local time, 24 opposition lawmakers seen as pro-China could be ousted and if they go, President Lai Ching-te may flip parliament and push for tougher China policy. But if they don't, he could become a lame duck and his U.S. friendly agenda could be at risk -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Wow, incredible, all right, and that voting beginning right now. Will Ripley, thank you so much, and thanks to all of you. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:45]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, breaking news, Ghislaine Maxwell is given limited immunity in her meetings with the DOJ and President Trump does not rule out a pardon for her.

And, Steve Goncalves faced down his daughter, Kaylee's killer in court and delivered a message to him, "You failed." I'm going to speak to Steve live tonight.

Plus, the famine in Gaza has gotten so severe, even those trying to save the most vulnerable barely have enough to eat themselves. I speak to a doctor inside Gaza.

Good evening to you, Jim Sciutto here in for Anderson tonight. There is breaking news in the Jeffrey Epstein saga. Ghislaine Maxwell was granted immunity in her meetings with Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, that according to a source familiar with their agreement.

Maxwell, who is currently serving 20 years for conspiring with Epstein in the sex trafficking of minors, met with Blanche for nine hours over the course of two days.

According to her attorney, she had a lot to say about people potentially in those, Epstein files.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID MARKUS, ATTORNEY FOR GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She literally answered every question. She didn't say -- you know what, don't ask me that. I'm not going to talk about this person. She was asked maybe about 100 different people. She answered questions about everybody, and she didn't hold anything back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: She didn't hold anything back, he said. If that is accurate with being given limited immunity, perhaps we know why. It's yet another major beat in a story that has dominated the last two weeks and continues to, despite President Trumps efforts to wrestle back the narrative or kill it. And if he hoped a Presidential trip to the U.K. would focus attention elsewhere, Blanche's second day of meetings with Maxwell all but guaranteed that would not happen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Were you briefed on your name appearing in the Epstein files, ever?

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: No, I was never, never briefed on.

REPORTER: What are you hoping Todd Blanche interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell? What are you hoping that they get out of that?

TRUMP: I really have no, really nothing to say about it. She is being talked to by a very smart man. By a very good man. Todd Blanche and I don't know anything about the conversation. I haven't really been following it. A lot of people are asking me about pardons. Obviously, this is no time to be talking about pardon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: And yet there's that word again. There is certainly a lot to unpack here. First off, the President was briefed back in May that his name appeared in the Epstein files more than once, multiple times. The briefing was by Attorney General Pam Bondi and her Deputy, Todd Blanche.

We know that from sources familiar with the discussion. The story was first reported by "The Wall Street Journal" since confirmed by CNN, as well as "The New York Times". I should point out that just being mentioned in the Epstein files is not evidence of wrongdoing, that's important.

Secondly, the question on a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell, the President did not say he was considering granting one, but he didn't dismiss it out of hand either. In fact, he kept bringing up the word pardon, which, considering he presents himself as tough on crime, he might, being that Maxwell once again is serving 20 years for conspiring with Epstein in the sex trafficking of minors.

It was the second time today that the President was asked that question, first this morning, before boarding Marine One to begin his trip to Scotland.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Would you consider a pardon or commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell if she's cooperating?

TRUMP: It's something I haven't thought about, it's really something -- It's something I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about.

REPORTER: But you wouldn't rule it out?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: He did not answer the question about ruling it out. What he did do when asked multiple times about a potential pardon or other aspects of the Jeffrey Epstein saga, was try to pivot to his accusations against President Obama and the 2016 election, or mention high profile names other than himself that are known to be former associates of Jeffrey Epstein. Which brings me back to Deputy Attorney General Blanche's meetings with Ghislaine Maxwell.

I should point out that blanche previously served as President Trump's personal attorney in the Hush Money Trial in New York. After his meetings with Maxwell wrapped up, her lawyer was asked about the possibility of a pardon and definitely took note of how President Trump handled that question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARKUS: We haven't spoken to the President or anybody about a pardon just yet and, you know, listen, the President this morning said he had the power to do so. We hope he exercises that power in the right and just way. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:05:29]

SCIUTTO: One other bit of breaking news tonight. The top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee is requesting that Jeffrey Epstein's estate turn over the purported birthday album that was reportedly assembled for Epstein back in 2003 and allegedly, according to "The Wall Street Journal" included a body drawing and message from then citizen Donald Trump.

President Trump today reiterated his claim that any such material is fake. He is also suing "The Wall Street Journal." Much to discuss this evening with defense attorney, Shan Wu. Semafor White House correspondent Shelby Talcott and former federal prosecutor and former deputy assistant attorney general, Elliot Williams.

Elliot, if I could begin with you. The circumstances here raise some troubling questions. Maxwell has an interest in shortening her sentence or perhaps being pardoned. The President has an interest in directing fire and attention away from himself and any ties he himself had to Jeffrey Epstein to others here. That creates at least the conditions of a quid pro quo where she might be able to testify to something that diverts attention away from him and get something in return. I mean, as a prosecutor, do you find those circumstances for a convicted sex trafficker troubling?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The problem is that every deal with someone who is convicted is itself a quid pro quo. And to be quite frank, whenever one of these deals happens, whether it's an immunity deal or the lowering of a sentence, the first thing defense attorneys like my friend Shan Wu say on cross-examination is, you know, Miss Maxwell, don't you have a sweetheart deal from the government? Why should anybody trust a single word that you say? So, it's incredibly common.

Now, the circumstances of all of this are also incredibly uncommon because of the nature of the parties and the President's involvement and so on. I mean, I think quite the thing that we ought to be most concerned about is the President of the United States' is day to day involvement, or at least apparent involvement in the facts of the story, the fact that he's being asked about it and weighing in.

That's concerning because typically, at least in both Democratic and Republican administrations, presidents tend to stay out. But the act of talking to someone who might have information for now, not much to see there.

SCIUTTO: Shan Wu, do you see something troubling in those conversations?

SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Not for the defense, it's a gold mine. It's a gift, yes, for the President and for DOJ, it's very unusual because her credibility is really questionable at this point. She has been convicted for sex trafficking and all this time later to only be speaking to her because of this publicity.

Normally, DOJ would be pretty careful about that, not to mention the impossible aspect of the Deputy Attorney General being the one doing the questioning. That's just totally unheard of, makes no sense and makes it look very politicized even if it wasn't already extremely politicized.

SCIUTTO: Shelby, in your conversations with White House or administration officials, have they provided an explanation as to why the President sent his Deputy Attorney General, who has quite a lot on his plate, one might say, as the Deputy Attorney General of the U.S. Justice Department today, to speak with a convicted sex offender already convicted and serving 20 years for trafficking and minors, have they explained what the reason is for those conversations?

SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: The explanation I've gotten from people who are close to the President is simply and this is mostly people who are sort of speculating about why the President would do this. I want to make that clear. Their argument is, this is something that could potentially satisfy the base, and it is also something that maybe we get new information, right, that we can therefore give to the base and, and sort of satisfy this weeks' long debate that really the MAGA base has not let go of. And it's really the first time that they have gone after the President and not agreed to drop it.

And so, that is the speculation from people close to the President. But I haven't heard anyone get a sort of solid explanation that came from the President himself as to why they're doing this.

SCIUTTO: So, Elliot, that's a political motivation. It's not a legal argument to talk to someone behind bars for a crime such as this.

WILLIAMS: No, it's not, but it's interesting. The question remains, what could she actually have to provide that would not have come out over the many years? Now, certainly there's a political question of, well, Democrats could have asked for it all along. And the Biden administration did not when they had the power to. But still, you know, she would have talked to prosecutors probably, or at least her counsel would have at some point in the last decade. Certainly she would have had an interest in lowering whatever sentence she would have got gotten years ago by cooperating with the government.

What could they possibly find, number one, that could actually affect someone's being charged? Or number two, that could actually be released to the public because it's going to be somewhat private information that implicates people that the Justice Department ought not actually release when they get a hold of it. So, it's just hard to see what the end game is here as a legal matter.

[20:10:27]

SCIUTTO: Shan, I mean, there is a history here of this President using pardons for political reasons. He's not the first President to do that. But he did, of course pardon January 6th protesters, including those who attacked police officers, right. In part, it seems, because they were his supporters. He claimed that they were treated badly, but they were sent to prison for attacking police officers. Does that history give you pause here in terms of how this President approaches the pardon power?

WU: Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's no guardrails on this President in terms of the pardon power. I mean, pretty much made the office of the pardon attorney at DOJ completely, you know, a relic this point.

So, from a defense standpoint, I just want to point out I would be telling Miss Maxwell that that's the golden goose, you want that egg. But you've got to prove yourself worthy to the department. And we have to remember, too, that they originally charged her with perjury. So, she really is carrying enormous baggage here. So, you would want to pepper --- that's why they probably wanted access to the grand jury testimony for her, because then she can use that to, frankly, make sure she's in conformance with other witnesses. Normally don't get that benefit. You have to speak on your own. She can compare what they're saying, make herself look as deliberate, informed, helpful, corroborated as possible. And I would emphasize that to her. You got to prove yourself that you are to be relied upon here before you can really get some benefit from this.

WILLIAMS: But one thing, it's time for our yearly or monthly reminder that the problem is the pardon power, not any one President. You know, the framers wrote this vast, unchecked power into the Constitution that literally generations of Congresses have chosen not to rein in when they would have had the opportunity to.

Now, that's sort of a problem, because we've seen virtually every President of both parties issue some pretty reprehensible pardons for people who did very bad things. Now, I will agree fully with Shan that President Trump's decision to, in effect, dismantle or at least significantly weaken the office of the pardon attorney, which provides valuable assistance to the President about who he should and shouldn't pardon. Now, that's egregious and a big breach of norms and incredibly problematic but there's a lot that can be done to pardon power.

SCIUTTO: Well, you've got laws and you have norms and we've seen some erosion of norms. Shelby, you heard the President deny that he was ever briefed on his name appearing in the DOJ's files, which has been contradicted by the reporting of multiple outlets, including CNN. Is the White House at all concerned about that contradiction, or are they willing to let the President keep denying?

TALCOTT: I think that they're willing to let the President keep denying. This administration, in particular, is filled with loyalists who really follow the direction of the President. So, whatever the President does, they sort of shift their stance to follow that. And I also want to quickly note on the on the pardon aspect. I've talked to a lot of administration officials and people within the MAGA universe about the possibility of Donald Trump pardoning.

Nobody has suggested to me that it would be a good idea and of course, ultimately it is up to the President. But I do want to note nobody in his orbit seems to want that. And perhaps that might influence his decision, as it has in the past.

SCIUTTO: And there's still a lot of folks in his orbit who are pushing for the release of the Epstein files, right. And that's been difficult for him to extinguish. Shan, Shelby, Elliot, good to have you, as always.

Joining me now is "Miami Herald" investigative reporter Julie K. Brown, whose work exposed the extent of Epstein's alleged sex trafficking ring and led to prosecutors reopening the case. She's also the author of "Perversion of Justice: The Jeffrey Epstein Story."

Julie, good to have you on tonight. Thanks so much.

JULIE K. BROWN, "MIAMI HERALD" INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Thanks for having me. SCIUTTO: First, big picture, if I can, for a moment, I just wonder how Epstein's victims and Ghislaine Maxwell's victims are absorbing this, and the prospect -- absorbing the prospect of a woman who, behind bars for 20 years for sex trafficking minors, might be pardoned.

BROWN: Yes, it's a nightmare for them. They're reliving some of their old trauma, you know, that they experienced even years ago that that never goes away. And now, to find out that the woman who many of them believe masterminded Epstein's sex trafficking pyramid scheme, which is what it was her recruiting effort with going to various spas, resorts, schools, even in and around Palm Beach to recruit these girls.

And, you know, the fact that she was the one that brought them in and then once they were in, she was she according to them, she and Epstein threatened them. In other words, if you don't do what we want at this point, we're going to make sure that you never get into college, that you never get into a good modeling school, that you never get hired.

And they were so powerful at the time. You know, there were pictures around Epstein's home, for example, with various powerful people. So, they were afraid and this triggers them again, all the different trauma that they went through and the fear and the anxiety.

[20:15:50]

SCIUTTO: It must. Have you heard from any of the victims you're in contact with since this has unfolded?

BROWN: Yes, I've spoken to a couple of them. They're reluctant to some of them to even go public with their thoughts because the idea that there were these files that at one point the President or his administration was promising to release, and then all of a sudden sort of took an about face and decided not to release them is quite disturbing to them, because to them, it shows that there's a lot of things in there that that the administration doesn't want the public to see.

This is their thought and the fact that this could be shut down like this by such, you know, powerful forces is frightening to them.

SCIUTTO: The President has said he hasn't thought about giving Maxwell a pardon or commutation, though that word keeps coming up and Maxwell's lawyer has mentioned it quite explicitly. Knowing this case, as you do, is there any basis for an act of clemency or a pardon?

BROWN: Well, I mean, I take you back to what happened in the Epstein case to begin with. I mean, he essentially got a sweetheart deal that allowed him to continue to go out and abuse and rape young girls and young women for years. You know, for over a decade, it's been now been two decades since the sweetheart deal. And we're still talking about this crime. And yet, you know, it seems like they're trying to find a way around just being transparent, just releasing what we do know. And if that would -- if that means that they're going to give some kind of a break to Ghislaine Maxwell, that to them is a deal made with the devil. SCIUTTO: Julie K. Brown, we appreciate your reporting on this from the beginning and thanks so much for joining tonight.

BROWN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next on 360, one of many remaining questions in the Epstein case, how exactly did he get so rich? We're going to take a closer look.

And later, I'm going to speak to the father of Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves, who spoke directly, eye to eye to her killer this week in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE GONCALVES, KAYLEE GONCALVES' FATHER: You tried to plant fear. You tried to divide us. You failed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:22:46]

SCIUTTO: For decades, Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell lived a life of luxury and with all things Epstein now under scrutiny and the Trump administration under fire for its handling of the case, both Republican and Democratic lawmakers on Capitol Hill are seeking more information on exactly how the disgraced financier got so rich. More on that from CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): When convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein was found dead behind bars, he owned two Caribbean Islands, homes around the world in Manhattan, New Mexico, Palm Beach, Paris, and according to Forbes, his estate was valued at $578 million, making Epstein clearly a wealthy man. Not so clear to some who have watched the case closely, how he got it all.

BROWN: I think that's the smoking gun here. Epstein's finances and where he -- how he made his money, who he got money from.

FOREMAN (voice over): Born in middle class Brooklyn, Epstein was a bright student who dropped out of college and into high finance, where he courted billionaire clients, including the man behind "Victoria's Secret" and the limited. Les Wexner kick started Epstein's professional success. And when Epstein's private crimes came out, he expressed outrage.

LES WEXNER, AMERICAN BUSINESSMAN AND FORMER CEO OF VICTORIA'S SECRET: Being taken advantage of by someone who was so sick, so cunning, so depraved. It's something that I'm embarrassed that I was even close to.

FOREMAN (voice over): But Epstein made many rich and powerful contacts before his sexual predations were publicly known, including now President Donald Trump, who in 2002, before his friendship with Epstein, fell apart, reportedly over a real estate deal, told "New York" Magazine I've known Jeff for 15 years, terrific guy.

Aside from Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's longtime girlfriend, none of his highly placed former pals have been charged with any crimes related to him.

FOREMAN (on camera): No law enforcement authorities have ever accused Trump of any wrongdoing in relation to Epstein, and the President bristles at the whole idea that the Epstein case still has secrets to reveal.

TRUMP: It's all been a big hoax that's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net.

FOREMAN Still, some find Epstein's fortune inexplicably large, too big in their assessment to have been made by legitimate hustle, and they openly wonder, with no proof, at least not yet, if maybe some of Epstein's contacts were somehow involved in his crimes and paying to keep it quiet.

REP. PETE SESSIONS (R-TX): We need to know, we're they paying Jeffrey Epstein money to do these? Who gave him the loans to buy the islands? What was he paid? Where did that money come from?

FOREMAN (voice over):Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:25:50]

SCIUTTO: Joining me now for more on Jeffrey Epstein, exactly how he built his wealth. A journalist who's reported on him for "Vanity Fair" and "New York Magazine," Vanessa Grigoriadis. She's also the creator of "Fallen Angel", an investigative podcast about "Victoria's Secret". Vanessa, thank you so much for joining.

VANESSA GRIGORIADIS, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, "VANITY FAIR": Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: So first, just a very simple question, which Tom referred to late in his story there. Is there evidence that people were paying Epstein to keep things quiet, in effect?

GRIGORIADIS: Well, we don't know exactly why Les Wexner and Leon Black got so involved with Epstein. They are the two people who the majority of his fees, his, you know, multimillion dollar fees were coming from. But we do not have evidence at this point to support what he said. So, we do not know if there was anybody who was paying to keep quiet things that were going on in this sex trafficking ring. And I'm talking about so many years after this man was taken down in Florida.

SCIUTTO: So, how did he then help Epstein become a wealthy man -- Wexner do we know?

GRIGORIADIS: Yes, I mean, we know that the two of them met, you know, through Robert Meister, who was selling insurance at the time. Epstein said, hey, Les Wexner, you know, allegedly is having these problems. I need to get in there and help him. He got an introduction to Wexner in Aspen many years ago back, you know, in the late 80's, and got his hooks in him.

SCIUTTO: "The New York Times" has reported that Epstein's lavish home in Manhattan was once owned by Wexner. Whether gift or sold, not clear, how central was that house to his friendships with the rich and powerful?

GRIGORIADIS: I think it's the whole key. I mean, he paid something for it. We think potentially 20 million, it's probably worth upwards of 80 million right now. It is one of the most amazing houses on the Upper East side of Manhattan. And I think people who love to be around the rich and powerful and the rich and powerful themselves are swayed by amazing Manhattan real estate. And remember, also, he had one of Epstein's plane -- I know he had one of Wexner's planes was given to him, and I don't think we have any records of him paying for that one.

SCIUTTO: Has it ever been clear to you exactly how close then citizen Donald Trump and Epstein were? Again, we've noted on this broadcast, we've noted prior no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the President. But do you have any evidence as to how close they were -- the relationship?

GRIGORIADIS: I think they were very close in the 90's from the women that I've talked to. I've talked to several of the women that were above age that Epstein dated. He did date women in their 20's. These sort of patrician looking, you know, small boned blonds that he went for in Manhattan and they met Trump. Trump was around. He was out, you know, at that time, President Trump was out in New York many nights a week. People met him. He was fun to talk to. So, was Epstein. These guys were on the scene.

That doesn't mean that they were in a sex trafficking ring, you know? But we know that they were hanging out.

SCIUTTO: Yes, Vanessa Grigoriadis, we appreciate you joining us and appreciate your reporting.

GRIGORIADIS: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, the father of Kaylee Goncalves, one of the four murdered University of Idaho students, joins me live. What he has to say about confronting his daughter's killer face to face in court ahead.

Also tonight, a U.N. worker warning that the people of Gaza are, "walking corpses." I'm going to speak with one doctor on the front lines in Gaza, that's coming up.

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[20:34:49]

SCIUTTO: This week, friends and family of the four University of Idaho students who were brutally murdered in November 2022 had their final opportunity to speak in court about the toll those murders have taken on their families. And an opportunity to address the killer directly at his sentencing.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

GONCALVES: You tried to break our community apart. You tried to plant fear. You tried to divide us. You failed. Instead, your actions have united everyone in their disgust for you.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

SCIUTTO: That was Steve Goncalves, father of Kaylee Goncalves who was killed that night along with Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle. Steve joins me now.

Steve, good to have you.

GONCALVES: Nice to be here, sir.

SCIUTTO: It has been a gut-wrenching week for you and your family facing your daughter's killer being reminded again of the murders. I wondered, do you feel that the sentencing has given you, your family, and maybe Kaylee some measure of justice?

GONCALVES: Definitely. There's a measure of justice. We were always going after the highest level of justice, but there's definitely justice in a life sentence. And, yes, we can call it what it is.

SCIUTTO: Tell me about that moment when you turn the podium to face the killer Bryan Kohberger. How did you feel in that moment looking at him in his eyes, in his face?

GONCALVES: Well, the strange thing was they didn't want us to address him, which I didn't fully understand and I obviously didn't agree with. So that's what I did. I addressed him directly. We were supposed to like direct to the judge is what they were saying. And I was like, well, I'm not here to speak to the judge. I'm here to speak to who did this to my child.

And there was a lot of people that were ready to change their statements and not even have the statements that they wanted because they were afraid that they couldn't say what they were supposed to say. So, my focus was to take control of that situation and make him have to react and make for him to defend himself. And that's what my family was really trying to do, is try to get some of our power back, get some control back.

SCIUTTO: When I was watching the proceedings, what struck me -- and I wasn't in the room, but what struck me was how stone-faced Kohberger was. And I just wonder as you looked at him and you addressed him and your daughter with her powerful testimony as well, did you see or sense any reaction?

GONCALVES: No. That man is evil. There was barely a dry eye in there. I mean, some of the testimony from Dylan herself, I mean, it was horrendous to hear.

SCIUTTO: Yes. GONCALVES: And people were crying everywhere and he didn't have one sign of remorse. I could see the hate in his eyes grow as I was there and I was challenging him. And then when I left and came back with my wife, I could see that he -- his face was clenched, his jaws were flexing. He was absolutely --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GONCALVES: -- totally mad.

SCIUTTO: Yes, I even sensed emotion from the judge as he was speaking and some from the prosecutor. Now, I knew you -- when you and I have spoken and you've said this publicly as well, have been critical of the plea deal because you wanted the possibility of a death penalty here.

My colleague Jake Tapper spoke to the lead prosecutor earlier today and he asked him to respond to that criticism. I want to play what he said and get your reaction to that. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

BILL THOMPSON, LATAH COUNTY PROSECUTOR: I respect the feelings of the Goncalves family. We actually spoke with representatives of all four families about the possibility of a plea offer before one was ever made. It was our conclusion that the -- to accept guilty pleas as charged to all five counts with stipulated fixed life sentences and a waiver of appeal was the best outcome we could hope for for this case.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

SCIUTTO: What's your response to that argument?

GONCALVES: My response is what happened even recently as yesterday, family members reached out to me and said if they would have known the details of what happened to Kaylee, they never would have taken that deal. So he had a strategy and that was to deceit us, you know, to hide the facts from the public because why else would you hide these facts from the public because it would make them outraged. And it was like a PR stunt for the town.

He's trying to, you know, protect the business, the university and that's really what the deal was all about. And I think your audience is intelligent enough to look at this and see what it is.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Let me ask you this because when you and I have connected on this, I think of my own daughter. What would you like people to remember about Kaylee?

[20:40:01]

GONCALVES: Well, you can see my other children and you can see Alivea in her speech and Steven in his speech. Steven did a lot of research, so did Alivea. You know, Kaylee was right there with them, you know? They were buddying rivals. And we lost the star. We lost the person that was going to go into our community and make good positive things happen.

And, you know, it's sad. It's sad that we didn't hold this guy to the same kind of level of his judgment. People say that they don't believe in the death penalty. Guess what? Bryan does. And he killed four people that night.

He was the judge and he was the prosecutor all in once. So it really doesn't matter if you don't believe in the death penalty. This killer did, so that's why we believe in the death penalty.

SCIUTTO: Well, you can see so much in her smile. I'll tell you that.

Steve Goncalves, thanks so much for joining and we wish you and your family the very best as you go through this.

GONCALVES: Thank you. Thank you for your audience.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, what one doctor is seeing at a hospital in Gaza as some medical workers there are fainting from hunger themselves while treating starving patients.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:55]

SCIUTTO: Aid workers in Gaza are sounding the alarm on what they describe as mass starvation of the Palestinian people. One said, quote, people in Gaza are neither dead nor alive. They are walking corpses.

Israel is planning to allow other nations to airdrop aid into Gaza. Again, the U.N. criticized that plan is both costly and dangerous. Anger over the aid blockade is boiling over in northern Israel. Today, Israeli protesters marched against the war.

Dr. Travis Melin joins me now from Nasser Hospital inside southern Gaza. Dr. Melin, thanks so much for joining. It is difficult to get eyes inside Gaza. Journalists like myself are simply not allowed in. So can you tell us what you're seeing with your own eyes in the hospital there and how dire the situation is?

DR. TRAVIS MELIN, AMERICAN PHYSICIAN WORKING IN GAZA: Yes, we're seeing the acute effects right now of Israel's intentional starvation of the Palestinian people. What I'm seeing amongst the staff is really high levels of fatigue depression. We're seeing staff. They're actually passing out at work. It's a daily occurrence here.

I'm seeing staff who are actually collecting plastic medical waste to use to as fuel for their cooking at home. And, you know, that's the situation, you know, just with the hospital staff. So, you know, take that one step further and imagine you're a patient who's been shot through the stomach. Things just kind of get worse from there.

SCIUTTO: The U.S. and Israel, as you know, pulled back sadly from ceasefire negotiations. And after that, President Trump urged Israel today to, quote, "finish the job in Gaza." I wonder, are you concerned that he's giving Israel free rein to continue its military operations there and continue sadly to see the conditions that we're seeing there?

MELIN: Yes, man, it's a terrifying quote, you know, especially for, you know, after two years of people experiencing this like, how much worse can it get. They're literally starving to death right now.

SCIUTTO: Israel now says that it will allow airdrops of aid again that a number of countries in the region have tried before including the U.S. military. Do airdrops from where you're sitting, does that give the people of Gaza what they need right now?

MELIN: No, I think airdrops are a bit of a joke and a distraction. You know, the airdrops have killed people in the past. Also, you know, we don't need airdrops here. We don't need a failed here. What we need is Israel to open the borders, follow humanitarian law and, you know, allow unrestricted access to medical aid.

SCIUTTO: Israel has denied carrying out deadly shootings near the few remaining a distribution points under the new program. I just wonder how you say that this is an intentional, intentional starvation of the Palestinian people there.

MELIN: Yes, I mean, every time that people go to these aid sites, we get a mass casualty.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MELIN: Yesterday, we had some 200 or so patients come through around 6:00 p.m. They all arrived within a half hour and -- or 45 minutes. People are literally stacked up on top of each other bleeding. Yes, so technically they are trying to provide some form of aid, but, you know, who's going to go to that aid site, you know? Only the people who have no choice left, you know, they haven't eaten in days. Those are only people who are going to risk that.

SCIUTTO: So you're saying you have treated patients who were shot while attempting to get aid from those a distribution points?

[20:50:07]

MELIN: Yes, yes. And, you know, of course, I'm not at those points. I don't see what's happening there, but I hear the same exact story from everyone who goes there and, you know, tries to get aid and everyone knows it's incredibly dangerous. You know, we hear stories about, you know, a father who -- whose kids just can't eat rice, you know, for yet another day another meal. His family says, no, don't go there. And he's like, no, I have to do this for my kids. And, you know, he comes into the ER and he's been shot through the head.

We've seen that scene a number of times, and that story a number of times.

SCIUTTO: Well, Dr. Travis Melin, we know you put yourself right in the middle of this there. Probably a great risk to yourself. We appreciate the work you're doing and thanks so much for joining. MELIN: Yes, of course. Thanks for having me on.

SCIUTTO: A view from inside Gaza. We will be right back.

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[20:55:41]

SCIUTTO: In a small town in Western Ireland, the long-awaited excavation of a mass grave is now underway. It is believed nearly 800 babies and young children were secretly buried at the site decades ago when it was a home run by nuns for unmarried pregnant women.

More now from CNN's Donie O'Sullivan.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the middle of this housing estate lies one of Ireland's darkest secrets.

O'SULLIVAN: There was knowledge that something was here.

CATHERINE CORLESS, LOCAL HISTORIAN: Yes, of course there was.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

CORLESS: It was just hidden between a lot of them.

O'SULLIVAN: Now we're here in the town of Tuam, it's on the west of Ireland, and this housing estate was once the site of a so-called mother and baby home.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Between the 1920s and 1990s, tens of thousands of Irish women who became pregnant outside of marriage were sent to homes run by nuns.

CORLESS: Every inch of that now is going to be excavated.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Contraception was illegal in Ireland until the 1980s, and abortion was illegal here until 2018.

JOHN RODGERS, TUAM MOTHE AND BABY HOME SURVIVOR: The church and the state, they had this thing about unmarried mothers being evil. They looked on them as dangerous because they were dangerous to men.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): John Rodgers was born in the mother and baby home here in Tuam.

RODGERS: A lock of hair. My mother kept that for 40 years and gave it back to me the day they were reunited.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): John was taken away from his mother, Bridie Rodgers, when he was only one year old.

RODGERS: Because she swore the day that she took that, that no church or state would ever be able to claim me as their own. I belong to Bridie Rodgers.

CORLESS: So I think there's something about the bond support.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Local historian and grandmother Catherine Corless began researching the Tuam baby home from her kitchen table.

CORLESS: That is the home itself now.

O'SULLIVAN: That's what --

CORLESS: That's what it look like.

O'SULLIVAN: -- looks on the housing stage (ph). Yes.

CORLESS: Yes, yes, that's it.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): She made a shocking discovery.

O'SULLIVAN: You discovered 796 babies --

CORLESS: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: -- had died in this home.

CORLESS: Yes. Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: There's no records of them --

CORLESS: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: -- being buried anywhere else.

CORLESS: Yes, anywhere else, yes.

O'SULLIVAN: But there is --

CORLESS: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: -- this septic tank.

CORLESS: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: What did you think?

CORLESS: Well, I was horrified, absolutely horrified. And -- but first of all, I had to absolutely prove it and keep talking and keep saying they're there.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Catherine kept talking even though some people in Tuam and in the Irish Catholic Church wanted her to stop.

CORLESS: First of all, I felt the resistance. I wasn't expecting that. I just thought they'd look at my research and say, my God. I thought they'd take it over from me and do something. I mean, between the Archbishop, the nuns, the whole lot, but no.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Her discovery shocked Ireland.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Tuam was not just a burial ground. It's a social and cultural sepulcher. It seemed as if, in Ireland, our women had the amazing capacity to self-impregnate. And for their trouble, we took their babies and we gifted them or we sold them or we trafficked them or we starved them or we neglected them or we denied them to the point of their disappearance.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Now, forensic archaeologists are beginning the delicate process of exhuming and identifying the babies' remains.

RODGERS: These babies that are in septic tank, maybe they were my playmates. I'll never know. All I know is that those children, friends of mine, they disappeared.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): In homes like this across Ireland, many babies disappeared because they died. Others disappeared sometimes after allegedly being illegally adopted or trafficked to America.

ANNA CORRIGAN, LOST BROTHERS AT TUAM: I'm here. I've spent 10 years looking to find --

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Two of Anna Corrigan's brothers were born in the Tuam home. She believes one of them was sent to America and could still be alive.

CORRIGAN: If somebody is watching this and if you know anything about a William Joseph Dolan who was born in the Tuam home in 1950 and would have been eight months old when he was moved to either America or Canada, please reach out.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Her other brother, John, died as a baby and is on Catherine Corless's list of 796 names. His body may be in the septic tank.

CORRIGAN: For the children that are lying up there, they've been crying for a long time. They've been crying to be heard. They didn't have dignity in life. They didn't have dignity in death. And we're hoping now that they will be identified. They will be moved to a dignified burial.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Donie O'Sullivan, CNN, Tuam, Ireland.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

SCIUTTO: Good Lord, what a story.

The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.