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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Jamaica Braces For What Could Be Worst Hurricane To Hit Island; Roughly 43 Million Americans To Lose Food Stamp Benefits This Week; Police: Two Louvre Heist Suspects Arrested; Trump Doesn't Rule Out Running For Third Term; Steve Bannon On Pres. Trump: "He's Going To Get A Third Term"; California Gov. Gavin Newsom Considering 2028 Run. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 27, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Brandon, thank you very much, on the ground in Kingston in the hours before this storm begins its assault, thank you.

BRANDON CLEMENT, STORM CHASER, WXCHASING: All right, thank you.

BURNETT: And thanks so much to all of you, as always for joining us. We'll see you back here tomorrow. "AC360" with Anderson begins now.

[20:00:18]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360: Hurricane Melissa, one of the strongest every measured with sustained winds of 175 miles an hour headed straight at Jamaica. We'll take you there.

Also, with the government shutdown, how 42 million Americans are now at risk of losing the food stamps they rely on.

And later, President Trump trolling or something more, he again does not rule out seeking a third term just days after his former top strategist says he will have one and tells Americans to get used to it.

Good evening, thanks for joining us. We've just gotten the National Hurricane Centers latest bulletin on what is now the strongest storm on the planet this year, Hurricane Melissa. And behind that enormous spiral of category five winds is the Caribbean Island of Jamaica.

Now, this is what it looked like from one of the hurricane hunter flights to penetrate the eye. It was said, it was, I should say, set a meteorologist on board one of the most turbulent rides ever. It's an extraordinary image.

The government shutdown, by the way, means that the crews are working without paychecks. The storm is now packing sustained winds of 175 miles an hour, bringing it a potential 17-foot storm surge and could dump as much as 40 inches of rain on Jamaica.

Now, according to a government official, three people have already died, making storm preparations. Jamaica's Prime Minister joins us shortly. But first CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam live from Kingston tonight. So Derek, how are things right now? DEREK VAN DAM, AMS METEOROLOGIST: All right, Anderson. So, the rain has been picking up in earnest through the course of the day today. We've had very little wind to really speak of here in the nation's capital, population of about a million people. But we know what's coming.

Kingston is surrounded by mountains, and that is going to make the potential of catastrophic flash flooding and landslides one of the bigger concerns for this nation's capital. Further west, where we anticipate the landfall to be. It will be more of a catastrophic wind event.

National Hurricane Center, using terminology like communities being cut off for days with widespread power and communication outages expected across the entire island. Really, nowhere is particularly safe because of this very slow moving disaster that will unfold in the days to come.

In Kingston, here, we're anticipating anywhere from 30 to 40 inches of rain, and its partly because of the mountain range, the blue mountains that are directly behind us, helping produce that rainfall from the lift that will be provided by Hurricane Melissa on arrival.

COOPER: So, what's the latest on the path and the potential destruction?

VAN DAM: Well, it's so important because this is really a matter of miles a game of miles, Anderson. We talk about it so much and the forecast path as we hone in on that final approach into the South Coast of Jamaica. We do have some interesting information from the National Hurricane Center, and I want to take note of what you see on this graphic.

I'm pointing out with an arrow here. So, you're looking at the line that's the actual forecast tracking the center of the storm and the cone that is further west on the western side of Jamaica. So a lot of our computer models maybe aren't quite seeing this westerly jog that we've been noticing. It's just that the winds are so, so weak. The steering currents that push this hurricane around. So, it's kind of wobbling westward and that has major implications downstream. Who will get the core of the catastrophic winds?

Right now, we believe it's over the western side of Jamaica. But even the National Hurricane Center saying in their 8:00 P.M. update, which just came out now talking about if the eye of the hurricane or how, depending on how close it gets, could make landfall into western portions of Jamaica. So that terminology is so incredibly important, regardless, the storm is massive. It's the storm surge. It is the potential of catastrophic flooding and our winds all over --

COOPER: Yes, Derek Van Dam, thank you very much.

Joining me now is the Prime Minister of Jamaica, Andrew Holness. Prime minister, I appreciate you being with us. We've heard of three deaths, 13 injuries so far related to storm preparations. What more can you tell us about that? ANDREW HOLNESS, PRIME MINISTER OF JAMAICA: Well, people have been trying to prepare for the storm. And in preparing for the hurricane, doing what we have advised in terms of cutting trees and clearing debris that may cause greater harm. Some people unfortunately, would have had accidents which would have led to deaths. But outside of that, the country is prepared. The government is prepared. All our agencies are prepared and we believe that a strong preparation is very good and important for a strong recovery.

COOPER: What sort of shelters -- what is the shelter situation for people in Jamaica?

HOLNESS: We have 850 shelters right across the island. We can accommodate, maybe over 20,000 persons, but we have not seen a large take up so far of the shelters provided. And that is because the main impact of the hurricane has not yet been felt. But we are seeing an increase in the number of persons moving into the shelters that are provided.

COOPER: And do you feel like, I mean, following the storm, do you feel like you'll have the resources you need for potential rescue operations, food, water, supplies, fuel?

[20:05:44]

HOLNESS: Well, you know, Anderson, if we are hit by a category five hurricane it will take far more resources than Jamaica has to recover. But we have prepared with a multi-layered system of response. So, within the first two weeks, we should be able to mount a humanitarian response. And we should be able to address immediate needs. But the long term recovery and the medium term recovery would require support.

COOPER: And what have you seen in past hurricanes? What's been the biggest issue in the wake of past events like this?

HOLNESS: Well, certainly in Beryl, which we faced last year, infrastructure was the main issue. If we get this category five hurricane, there would be major damage to our road infrastructure, bridges, drains and possibly some damage to ports and airports. We have a recovery plan for roads, airports and ports, so we expect that well be able to mount that very rapidly.

COOPER: Also, in the wake of something like this. How concerned are you about security issues?

HOLNESS: Well, we have security plan, which is quite robust and which has been very effective. So far, we have not had any break in public order. No reports of looting or any other threat to public order. Our security forces have been mobilized and they have been very effective so far, and we expect that they will continue to be effective in maintaining law and order.

COOPER: Some Jamaican officials have talked about problems with misinformation, fake videos. What have you been seeing? How big a problem -- what kind of problems is that causing? HOLNESS: It is a big problem, but not bigger than anywhere else in the world. Clearly, in the age of social media, the citizen journalist is a phenomenon that we all have to address. It's part of freedom of the press. We defend freedom of the press in Jamaica, but our strategy is to informationalize our citizens. So, we are constantly facing the citizens, giving them information for them to be able to make the right decision and discern what is true and what is not.

COOPER: Prime Minister, I appreciate your time. I know how busy you are.

HOLNESS: I thank you for having me.

COOPER: I wish you and everybody, good luck. We'll continue to checking and follow this.

HOLNESS: We continue to pray for the best and we continue to prepare so that we can overcome and recover better than before.

COOPER: Well, thank you.

Adam and Jordan Simmons are from South Carolina. They are on vacation in the northern part of the island near Montego Bay. They're on their honeymoon. They join me tonight.

COOPER: Adam. Jordan, thank you so much for talking with me. First of all, how are you doing? Adam, what are you bracing for? And where are you?

ADAM SIMMONS, HONEYMOONER IN JAMAICA: We are at the excellence oyster bay resort, just on the outskirts of Montego Bay. We are bracing for impact as we know, Hurricane Melissa is approaching quickly, and we've been notified that we will be on lockdown tonight at 9:00 P.M., and then we're going to be moving to a shelter tomorrow at 7:00 A.M. here on the resort.

COOPER: And Jordan, when did you find out how bad this storm was going to be?

JORDAN SIMMONS, HONEYMOONER IN JAMAICA: So, when we got here on Tuesday, I think that's when the tropical storm was actually named. And then by Friday, Saturday, it became a hurricane and when we started trying to get flights. There was no flights. So, we are here until Thursday, and the airports are open, Thursday.

COOPER: This is your this is your honeymoon. It's obviously not the way you anticipate spending your honeymoon, but it's certainly going to be memorable. Adam, what's the hotel doing to try to keep folks safe?

A. SIMMONS: The staff has done a wonderful job. The managers have done a wonderful job. The vibes are still positive. Obviously, the staff is trying to make sure that were okay, and then were trying to reciprocate that and make sure the staff is okay, because we're all experiencing this for the first time. COOPER: It looks like a solid building. Jordan, what's the plan? I know, Adam was saying that they're going to go to a shelter at a later time. What's the plan? Just to ride things out. It looks like they've been boarding up the windows and stuff, obviously.

[20:10:19]

J. SIMMONS: Yes, so yesterday they started the whole, hurricane take down. And within 24 hours, everything was removed. It was so impressive. We will probably stay out in the lobby area because that's where they have the games. And then at night we will come and be locked in for the night.

COOPER: Wow, and then how far away is the shelter, Adam?

A. SIMMONS: It's really just a building over, Anderson. It's actually two restaurants that we've actually ventured to a few times while were here, that they've transitioned to the shelter. So, they boarded up the outside of the restaurants, and they have actually cleared out the inside. And they brought in, like the lounge chair cushions and provided us an opportunity to be able to relax there, and in hopes, potentially just one night. But they did recommend that we got to go back ready with our essentials, our medicines. A couple, you know, changes of clothes and we're just waiting.

COOPER: Yes, well, Jordan and Adam Simmons, I wish you the best. And we'll keep checking in with you and stay safe.

J. SIMMONS: Thank you so much.

A. SIMMONS: Thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: Were going to continue to track the storm throughout the hour and night here on CNN and bring you the latest.

Coming up next, the man who captured this and so many other memorable images as White House photographer to Presidents Obama and Reagan, the legendary Pete Souza, his view on the demolition of the East Wing and more than a century of memories.

And later, California Governor Gavin Newsom talks with CNN's Alex Michaelson about the New Years' midterms, this President's appeal and how Democrats may be able to shake it off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Years and years ago, Bill Clinton said it. I think he was former President at the time. We got shellacked at another midterms, he said, given the choice, the American people will always support strong and wrong versus weak and right.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:16:37]

COOPER: Well, beginning on Saturday, only five days from now, if the government shutdown is not resolved, roughly 42 million Americans who rely on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, known as SNAP, will not receive their food stamps for November.

The shutdown is now in its 27th day, there's still no end in sight, and money for the critical food assistance program has run out. The Agriculture Department says it doesn't have the authority to tap into a $6-billion contingency fund to cover those benefits next month.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Everybody in this room knows exactly what's going on, and it's so infuriating to us. The best way for SNAP benefits to be paid on time is for the Democrats to end their shutdown, and that can happen right now. If they would show some spine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, despite the long shutdown, President Trump's focus appears to be on his new White House Ballroom that's replacing the demolished East Wing. It's costing hundreds of millions of dollars, which he says is being paid for by private donations.

I'm joined by Dasha Burns, White House bureau chief for POLITICO. So what is your sense of how the White House is looking at this massive now estimated $300 million ballroom project in juxtaposed against 42 million people set to lose their food aid benefits at the end of this week. Obviously, it's being built by private donations they say.

DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF FOR POLITICO: Well, Anderson, they're not seeing that together, right. They're not seeing the contrast there. They're looking at the ballroom as one thing and as a shutdown as something else entirely and something that the President has not been nearly as involved in as he has with some of these, whether its real estate or some of the international foreign policy issues that we've seen him take on.

He's overseas while were in this 27th day of the shutdown. And POLITICO just reported that the White House is not going to tap emergency funds. They don't believe they legally can tap emergency funds to fund that SNAP program. And we also just reported that dozens of Democratic attorneys general and governors are planning to file suit against the Trump administration for that reason tomorrow. So, you're certainly going to see that fight from Democrats.

But right now, Republicans really feel like the narrative is playing to their benefit, that they can blame these challenges like snap benefits and like some of the travel issues that were going to start to see on Democrats.

COOPER: The USDA said on Sunday that it won't tap emergency funds to pay for SNAP benefits. But on Friday, President Trump told reporters, "everybody's going to be in good shape." When asked about funding food stamps next month, the White House, I mean, is there some sort of a plan there? BURNS: Listen, this is the challenge with President Trump and something that his staff have to deal with that he is not in the nitty-gritty details on this, particularly with this government shutdown. He has been hands off.

Let Congress handle it. Stay the line, stay strong with his Republican leadership on the hill, in the House and in the Senate and he has not again, the level of influence and impact that he has had on so many different policy areas.

It is fascinating to watch him kind of sit back and stay out of this shutdown. A lot of Republican operatives and folks on the Hill that I'm talking to behind the scenes, feel like it will take him stepping in to end this thing. And once we hit that November 1st date, when the rubber meets the road with SNAP, with air traffic controllers, with TSA, with peoples premiums going up, that is where I'm starting to hear a little bit of nervousness from staunch Trump supporting Republicans that the tables are going to turn here.

[20:20:09]

COOPER: Dasha Burns, thank you very much.

My next guest is someone who knows the White House, the East Wing and its history intimately. He took this iconic photo of President Obama running through the East Wing with his dog, Bo, down the same hallway visitors enter the White House.

Joining me now is former chief official White House photographer Pete Souza. Pete, it's good to see you. You've captured history through the halls of the White House, through your camera lenses. What goes through your mind when you see the East Wing completely demolished?

PETE SOUZA, FORMER CHIEF OFFICIAL WHITE HOUSE PHOTOGRAPHER: I was shocked, I don't know how else to say it. I mean you can make an argument about whether you build a new ballroom or not. But how you do it? You don't just tear down a building. This is not his house. This house belongs to us. It's the people's house. And one man should not be able to just knock down a building for his vanity ballroom project. So, I felt -- I just felt devastated that this is the way he went about doing it.

COOPER: What were some of your favorite memories you captured in the East Wing?

SOUZA: I think, you know, for me, the most of my time was spent in the West Wing with the President. I worked for both President Reagan and President Obama. And he would venture over there. Well, early on, he ventured over there to see all the different rooms. You see, this is the family theater with President Reagan and Mrs. Reagan, and that theater was where we often went for film screenings, watching the Super Bowl, meeting with the Tuskegee Airmen that you see there.

COOPER: I mean, that is such an incredible photo. That's like something out of, like a 1940s movie. It looks like, you know, it's amazing. SOUZA: Well, I mean, and just given who you know, Barack Obama, first Black president and here's their screening of film of the Tuskegee Airmen in that family theater and here he is with Michelle and her office in the first couple weeks, he ventured over to the East Wing to check it out.

So and, you know, and also you showed that picture with the tree and the snow. I mean, Christmas time, the winter when the East Wing is decorated with Christmas decorations as people taking the public tour going to the state floor, but they first walk through that East Wing and the magic of Christmas is alive as they walk into the White House.

And, you know, now the White House tours are canceled indefinitely because there's no place for tourists to enter the White House anymore.

COOPER: And what do you make of the argument that the President makes that the ballroom was needed and is long overdue, that this has been asked for a long time?

SOUZA: Yes, I mean, I've actually argued with some of my former colleagues about that because, you know, I've photographed many state dinners in the East Room and the State Dining Room, a couple in the Rose Garden that were set up and you've heard about setting up a tent on the South Lawn. They've done that a couple times. And this is a Rose Garden, state dinner for Angela Merkel that you're looking at right now. And this is in the East Room, a state dinner.

So, I think there -- I think some people will make an argument that there should be ballroom, but I find it insane that we would build a 90,000 square foot ballroom when the White House itself is only 55,000 square feet.

COOPER: Yes.

SOUZA: I mean, you don't need a 999-seated ballroom. You could make an argument, I guess, for a smaller ballroom, maybe one that's not, gilded in gold, but, yes.

COOPER: Pete Souza, I appreciate your time tonight and your perspective and seeing all those remarkable images that you have taken over the years, thank you.

SOUZA: Thank you.

COOPER: Up next, French police arrest two of four suspects wanted in the Louvre heist. John Miller joins us with how investigators tracked them down.

Also, just days after President Trump's former top strategist says there are plans for a third term, the President, when asked, does not say no.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I would love to do it. I have my best numbers ever, it's very terrible. I have my best numbers. If you read it, am I not ruling it out? You'll have to tell me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:29:36]

COOPER: Possible breakthrough in the Crown Jewel heist at the Louvre in Paris. Two suspects now in custody, both captured on Saturday night. Local prosecutor says one of the men was arrested at the airport, about to board a flight to Algeria.

Now the jewels were stolen before the museum opened. Here you see one of the four suspects wearing a yellow vest at one of the two display cases where jewels were stolen.

Just last week, authorities released this video of two of the four suspects fleeing the Louvre on a truck mounted cherry picker before fleeing on a motorcycle. CNN's chief law enforcement intelligence analyst, John Miller, joins us. So what do we know about the two suspects?

JOHN MILLER, CNN'S CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, we know from the last time you and I spoke about this, I pointed out, you know, the police are going to put their marbles in forensics from the beginning, and that's what they did.

DNA that they picked up from the scene, identified one person who was connected to a prior set of robberies. When they put that person under surveillance, it led them to another person, and they literally followed the two of these people, hoping that they would lead to the other two involved the group of four or the gems, until one of them drove to the airport, booked a flight to Algeria, and that's where they had to arrest him. And then they arrested the second man.

[20:30:52]

So what we know is they've been involved in robberies before they are connected to this allegedly through DNA. And what we don't know so far, what they don't know is, who are the other two. But they're looking at who they've all been arrested with in the past to figure out could those be other members of the crew.

COOPER: And so we don't know much more about the team beyond these two, have they done stuff like this before?

MILLER: Not on this level. This would have been their grand slam, but they're in custody right now. But it appears that what they did is they put together a simple, practical plan. And one of the avenues police -- the prefect of police in Paris are pursuing right now is, how do they come up with that practical, simple plan? Did they have help from the inside? And that is an active lane of investigation still.

COOPER: But a lot of things went wrong it seems like.

MILLER: They certainly did and that's what happens when you're in the middle of the job, you're doing everything right, you've got it all at bay and then you're coming down and you hear the police sirens approaching and you realize we're running out of time.

Take a look at the footage of them coming down on that cherry picker again as they leave the job. Notice the two of them both start looking down suddenly. I'm told by investigators that's when they dropped the crown. They're like, damn, we dropped the crown. Where did it go?

And it fell between two fences. They couldn't get over the wrought iron fence, I mean, they couldn't get between those two fences so that's where people from the museum found the crown after that long fall. It's not the Thomas crown affair, it's that, we dropped the crown.

COOPER: Wow. Nice one, John.

John Miller, thank you.

Coming up next, the President weighs in again on a third term just days after Steve Bannon, his former strategist, says this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: Well, he's going to get a third term. So Trump '28 -- Trump is going to be president in '28 and people just sort of get accommodated with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Later, California governor and potential 2028 Democratic presidential candidate Gavin Newsom talks with 2020 -- talks about 2028 with CNN's Elex Michaelson his unsettling prediction about how free and fair of the 2020 election might not be.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:37:35]

COOPER: Unlike perhaps any other president, this president has made a practice out of taking the journey and the country with it from he couldn't possibly or he wouldn't dare to he just did or he just tried. From he wouldn't dare to try to stay in office after losing the election to trying to, or from he couldn't possibly grant clemency to each and every January 6th convict and defendant even the especially violent ones to making it one of the first things he did after taking the oath of office this time. Or more recently turned down the West -- the East Wing of the White House to make room for that ballroom.

Now there's the kind of context which makes the President's musings about a third term which he did again earlier today, harder to write off is just idle talk or things he says to provoke some kind of reaction or even sell merchandise. Because sometimes those things which he talks about often or refuses to rule out actually do signal what he'd like to do if he could or merely thinks that he could.

Case in point this on the third term.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would love to do it. I have my best numbers ever. It's very terrible. I have my best numbers ever.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're not ruling out --

TRUMP: If you read it -- am I not ruling it out? You'll have to tell me --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: President being coy about being coy, it seems, neither ruling it out nor saying he's not ruling it out. He did however say this about one widely talked about scenario in which he'd run again as vice president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: No, you'd be allowed to do that but I wouldn't. I think it's --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're ruling that out?

TRUMP: -- too cute. Yes, I wouldn't rule that out because it's too cute. I think the people wouldn't like that. It's too cute. It's not -- it wouldn't be right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, keeping him honest, that's virtually the only thing he's concretely ruled out. And the fact that he's leaving the wrestling table may hit differently now that his former strategist Steve Bannon has said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BANNON: Well, he's going to get a third term. So if Trump '28 -- Trump is going to be president in 28. And people just sort of get accommodated with that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So what about the 22nd Amendment?

BANNON: There's many different alternatives. At the appropriate time, we'll lay out what the plan is. But there's a plan and President Trump will be the president in '28.

Trump is a vehicle -- I know this will drive you guys crazy, but he's a vehicle of divine providence. He's an instrument.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: At times, since the attempts on his life, the President has alluded to that or that he's been somehow divinely spared to carry on his work. As for Bannon's talk about alternatives, his old boss seems just familiar with them, including the one he ruled out yesterday.

When asked in late March by NBC's Kristen Welker whether he'd been presented with any potential plans for enabling a third term, he told her, "Well, there are plans. There are -- not plans. There are this -- there are methods which you could do it, as you know."

[20:40:11]

COOPER: He spoke of one for running as -- the one for running as vice president to JD Vance and then said, "But there are others, too. There are others," and he refused to specify.

Then when Welker said he didn't sound like he was joking, the President replied, quote, "No, no, I'm not joking. I'm not joking." Adding, "It is far too early to think about it."

Now, that's the President back in March. Keep him honest. The 22nd Amendment, as those reporters mentioned to the Constitution, states plainly, "No person shall be elected to the office of the president more than twice and no person who has held the office of president or acted as president for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected president shall be elected to the office of the president more than once."

Now, the amendment was ratified in 1951, six years after Franklin Delano Roosevelt died in the middle of his fourth term. Prior to that, three other presidents, including his distant cousin Theodore Roosevelt, had sought third terms. None, of course, had anything stopping them beyond contemporary norms and propriety.

This president, on the other hand, is posting A.I. videos, like this one of him tossing a Trump 2028 hat onto the head of House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, which is most likely trolling or joking or sarcasm or any of the other words the President's supporters often use while telling people to lighten up already.

But if it's joking, extending presidential power beyond what the Constitution allows isn't something that presidents typically joke about. Even Attorney General Pam Bondi, the nation's top legal official, couldn't bring herself to rule it out, even when pressed back in April.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I wish we could have him for 20 years as our president, but I think he's going to be finished probably after this term.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably?

BONDI: Well, the Constitution, we'd have to look at the Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Probably. Again, the 22nd Amendment seems clear, but as court biographer Jeffrey Toobin often says, laws in the Constitution are what a majority in the Supreme Court says they are.

Still, there have been several moments when the President has seemed to close the door on the notion, if only a little. Here's what he said on Meet the Press in May.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you seriously considering a third term, Mr. President, even though it's prohibited by the Constitution? Or is this about staying politically viable?

TRUMP: I will say this. So many people want me to do it. I have never had requests so strong as that. But it's something that, to the best of my knowledge, you're not allowed to do. I don't know if that's constitutional that they're not allowing you to do it or anything else, but there are many people selling the 2028 hat. But this is not something I'm looking to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Not something I'm looking to do, he says, which is still less than a full-throated disavowal, and something he's also quick to say that so many people want. Just like the hats he's selling for $50 on his company's merch site with the following pitch. "The future looks bright. Rewrite the rules of the Trump 2028 high crown hat."

Again, this is the official website of the Trump Organization. Whether or not you think it amounts to anything more than a buck-raking or trolling or owning the libs, the President is not only doing an awful lot of it in his second term. He's been doing it dating back to his first term as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We are going to win four more years.

CROWD: Four more years! Four more years! Four more years!

TRUMP: And then after that, we'll go for another four years because, you know what, they spied on my campaign.

We're going to win four more years in the White House. And then after that, we'll negotiate, right? Because we're probably -- based on the way we were treated, we're probably entitled to another four after that.

It will be the greatest honor of my life to serve not once, but twice or three times or four times now. Now it will be to serve twice.

I think I'm not allowed to run again. I'm not sure. Am I allowed to run again?

They say I can't run again. That's the expression. Sure. Then somebody said, I don't think you can. Oh.

Should I run again? You tell me.

CROWD: Yes! Four more years! Four more years! Four more years!

TRUMP: You know, we have almost four years to go. And that's a long time. But despite that, so many people are saying, you've got to run again. They love the job we're doing.

So the new hat, the hottest hat is it says Trump 2028. We're driving the left crazy when you see that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Joining me now with more, CNN Senior Political Commentator and former Trump Campaign Adviser, David Urban, CNN Political Commentator and Former Trump White House Communications Director, Alyssa Farah Griffin, and CNN Senior Political Commentator and Former Special Adviser of President Obama, Van Jones.

Alyssa, when President Trump makes statements like these, how do you discern if it's just provoking a reaction or if he's actually considering it?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's something that the media and that voters should keep an eye on.

[20:45:01]

Listen, I was one of the many Trump first-term staffers who didn't make anything of the questions for media in his first term of would he leave office if he lost. And we remember how that went down. We remember the fake electors plot January 6th and the aftermath. So I think it's something worth following.

Obviously, there's really only two constitutional remedies to actually run for a third term since he's already held office twice. I would be very curious if some enterprising reporters could ask Steve Bannon and try to get some more answers on what the plan could actually entail because there are neither votes in the Senate nor for a constitutional convention to change the 22nd Amendment.

But I will say this. I know Donald Trump well enough to know that after the midterms, he's not someone who's going to want to be a lame duck, who's going to want to cede the national stage to JD Vance or Marco Rubio, who would be the heir apparent. So I'll be curious to see how he behaves when it gets closer to a real 2028 primary season, which will happen right after the 2026 midterms.

COOPER: David, have you bought the merch?

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I love the merch. I love it.

COOPER: Or drank the Kool-Aid, either one?

URBAN: Listen, I notice I'm the only one smiling. Van's crying over there in the corner. I see him like Alyssa's sick to her stomach. I'm the only one laughing.

Listen, as Alyssa correctly --

FARAH GRIFFIN: I'm pregnant.

URBAN: As Alyssa correctly points out, I know Steve Bannon, you know, mysteriously talks about we've got this plan. I don't know what kind of plan you could have. I mean, you either amend the Constitution, right? You could challenge it in court, as you say, Toobin says correctly, you know, the law -- the Constitution is what the justices say it is. But it seems pretty clear.

And Trump himself seems to, you know, on Air Force One in the flight, you know, points to the rivalry which he is creating between Marco Rubio in that video right there. The rivalry he's creating between Marco Rubio and Vice President JD, he's always, said, look, Rubio's really great. He'd be great. Maybe.

And JD's great, too. They'd both be great. I don't know who'd get in the primary. Maybe they should run together, right? I mean, he's kind of teasing a primary between the two of those guys.

And listen, let no one be fooled to think that Donald Trump is going anywhere. He may not be president, but he's going to be sitting in Bedminster or in Palm Beach. Can you imagine if you are President JD Vance and every day you wake up to a slew of Truth Social posts and tweets about Donald Trump and reviewing your performance from the night before?

Trump will remain large on the stage in American politics and global politics until he does not remain anymore. I mean, the guy is the Colossus at Rhodes and will remain that way.

COOPER: Van, how seriously do you take these comments?

VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm sorry, I'm trying not to vomit on the air (INAUDIBLE). Like, I --

COOPER: Are you envisioning the Colossus of Rhodes?

JONES: Just the whole thing, man.

COOPER: Yes.

JONES: But, look, I take it seriously just because there doesn't seem to be very much respect for the Constitution, for rule of law from this White House and from his people. Listen, I remember when Obama was president and we had the Tea Party and they called themselves constitutional conservatives.

They said, it's not about his skin color or that he's a Muslim or these different things we've been saying. It's just we love the Constitution. The Constitution is so important. We're just constitutional conservatives.

And now you have somebody like -- it's not a very patriotic thing to say that you're going to blow through constitutional norms and, yes, you have some secret plot to change the Constitution. If you have a plot to change the Constitution or to blow through it, that seems more traitorous or treasonous than patriotic.

And I just think that, you know, we've underestimated this sort of stuff before. I think January 6th changed a lot of people's minds about how secure our democracy is. And I think he's picking at some real scabs here.

COOPER: Alyssa, I mean, is there a political strategy behind comments like these? I mean, he often alludes to a third term in kind of the context of his achievements. You know, he was saying his numbers are so great. Is it a hyperbolic way to call attention to what he sees as his successes?

FARAH GRIFFIN: I think Urban hit it on the head where this is to remind folks, if he does plan to leave office and not challenge the 22nd Amendment, to remind whoever his successors are that they are really there because of him and that he's going to have a heavy hand and heavy say in electoral politics going forward.

I think it's a way to keep Republican members in line with him saying, because the reality is he is by far the most popular figure in Republican politics of the last 50 years. That's not going to change anytime in the near future, I don't expect.

But I also think it's a caution to Democrats where, sure, be alarmed about this, do the research, have the legal fights ready, but they need to focus on recruiting a candidate who could beat Donald Trump or JD Vance or Marco Rubio, not simply flailing their arms and being upset about if he may challenge the Constitution.

So I think that's really where the political focus on the left should be. And I think for Donald Trump, it's half having fun, half probably seriously considering it.

URBAN: Yes, and --

COOPER: Go ahead, David.

URBAN: Yes, go ahead, Anderson. I'm sorry.

[20:50:07]

COOPER: No, no. If, I mean, if the President announces that he is running for a third term, dares the courts or Republican secretaries of state to stop him and not put him on the ballot, do you think anyone, at least in the GOP, would stand in his way?

URBAN: No, in the current state of affairs, I don't think anyone would. The court, I think, would stand in his way. I think the court would strike that down. And listen, Trump himself has said, look, it's too cute by half, this kind of notion of running for vice president. So I'm not so sure how he would circle a square there.

And listen, again, I think my point is, you know, which Alyssa makes again, is Donald Trump is the most consequential figure in American politics, in, you know, in Republican politics in a generation. He will remain so until the time he passes away.

And so he doesn't have to be president, he's going to have a huge impact on the Republican Party and whoever the next Republican president is. And the only reason they will be there is because of Donald Trump.

COOPER: Van, do you think that's the case, that Mar-a-Lago will be, you know, kind of an epicenter of Republican politics for as long as Mr. Trump is there?

JONES: I think that's true. It's just, you know, my great hope is that America, after four years of this, will elect a Democrat, a Green Party member, a Libertarian Party member, or anybody else and never a Republican again.

URBAN: Zohran Mamdani, baby.

JONES: Yes. This -- anybody, anybody. After four years of Trump, I think people are going to be ready to move on. You can go to Mar-a- Lago and have a great time there with the Republican Party trying to catch his breath.

COOPER: Van Jones, Alyssa Farah Griffin, David Urban, good to see you. Thank you.

URBAN: Feel better, Van.

COOPER: Up next -- I think that may take a while. Up next, a stark warning for California Governor Gavin Newsom, who's considering a run for the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: There may not be a 2028 election that's fee-free and fair. So my focus is central to getting over the hump in November 4th of this year and then working on 2026.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:53]

COOPER: Tonight, California Governor Gavin Newsom tells CNN he's giving serious consideration to running for his party's nomination in 2028. He's become one of the most vocal Democrats opposing President Trump and his policies and he just spoke to CNN's Elex Michaelson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWSOM: People talk about it and you'd be lying if it hasn't -- you haven't thought about it or processed it. But that said, quite literally I'm making the case that's why I have this initiative, Prop 50, there may not be a 2028 election that's fee-free and fair. So my focus is central to getting over the hump on November 4th of this year and then working on 2026 in the midterm re-election.

I just think we're on the other side of something radically different, not marginally different. Everything has changed in terms of my mindset, my focus, my energy, my perspective on the world we're living in, Trump and Trumpism, what he represents and how serious and precious this moment is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, Governor Newsom will be the first guest on Elex's new program, "The Story Is," which premieres tonight at midnight, Eastern, 9:00 Pacific. I'm here with Elex Michaelson on his new set, which I got to say is lovely.

ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: And of course our best guest tonight, Anderson Cooper.

COOPER: Please, please.

MICHAELSON: Yes.

COOPER: So did -- I'm wondering, did Governor Newsom, did it surprise you, his comments, and also what else stood out based on what he said?

MICHAELSON: Well, what surprised us is for years he has said, I have no interest whatsoever, sub-zero interest, which nobody really believed.

COOPER: Right.

MICHAELSON: And now he's finally coming to terms with what most people have been saying behind the scenes for a while. And he sees his lane as being a fighter because he has felt for a long time like the Democratic Party has been seen as weak.

Here's some of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWSOM: In every respect, I think weak and meek. I mean, look, you've heard this line a million times, it's not even novel to say it. And it really resonated with me years and years ago. Bill Clinton said it. I think he was former president at the time.

We got shellacked in another midterms. He said, given the choice, the American people always support strong and wrong versus weak and right. There's something to that. And I think we've appeared weak over --

MICHAELSON: On what?

NEWSOM: A number of issues. We've lost the national election. We lost both the House and the Senate. We lost our sense. I think we lost our mojo. We lost our confidence. And we've been on our heels.

We've got a guy who knows how to communicate. Terrible order. He's dull beyond words, but he's a great communicator, Trump. He's flooding the zone. There's an asymmetry as it relates to the way he's able to communicate. And we haven't been able to respond.

But, again, November 4th, I really believe, is a moment, a profound and consequential moment, that's going to give us momentum into 2026. And look what happens. In November 2026, Donald Trump's presidency de facto ends. You'll see the president of the United States, fire and fury, signifying a lot less.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: You have a new program launching in just a couple hours. What should viewers expect?

MICHAELSON: For an opportunity to have conversations like that one, but also an opportunity to have some fun. We're going to lean into not only politics, but also entertainment and tech and a lot of the West Coast ethos from out here as well. And a great conversation tonight with you about grief and your new show that's coming up --

COOPER: Yes.

MICHAELSON: -- which I really appreciate as well.

COOPER: Well, Alex, I look forward to the program. Congratulations.

MICHAELSON: Thank you.

COOPER: Welcome.

Again, "The Story Is with Elex Michaelson" debuts tonight at midnight Eastern, 9:00 Pacific, only here on CNN. That's it for us. The news continues. My podcast starts tomorrow night. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts right now.