Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
DOJ, Suspends Two Prosecutors Who Described Jan.6 Attack as "Riot": Court Doc With Wording Now Replaced; Tale of The Tapes; Widespread Hurricane Damage Across Jamaica; Hurricane Melissa Slams Caribbean, Leaving Historic Impact in Jamaica; Rescuers Struggling to Reach Parts of Hard-hit Jamaica; "Almost Famous" Director, Cameron Crowe's New Book "The Uncool" is on the Stands; Voting for CNN's "Hero of the Year" is Now Open. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 29, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: ...show "The Story is", we'll have more from here plus the latest on the President Trump- President Xi meeting, which will be happening during our show tonight at 9:00 P.M. Pacific right here on CNN -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Elex, thank you so much. It's really fascinating to see and as Elex said, "The Story Is" it is 9:00 P.M. Pacific and midnight Eastern tonight on CNN. That and so much more.
And thanks so much for joining us. AC360 begins right now.
[20:00:30]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, two federal prosecutors who describe the people who attacked the Capitol on January 6th as a mob are suddenly suspended in a report they wrote that then disappears from the court docket.
Also tonight, new reporting on Homeland Security videos of enforcement actions, what DHS claims they show versus what they really show.
Plus, images that are all too real of the enormous destruction Hurricane Melissa did to Jamaica when it came through as a Category 5. We'll take you to the island nation.
Good evening, thanks for joining us.
We begin tonight keeping them honest with two prosecutors who may be paying the price tonight for what they said about a convicted felon who stormed the Capitol in January 6th, namely, that he and the people who did it were part of a mob.
Taylor Toronto is his name, he was pardoned for that, but convicted this year after he was caught near former President Obama's home in Washington with guns and hundreds of rounds of ammo in his van. He was arrested after making violent threats against the government and several elected officials, and found guilty by a judge in connection with all of it. Now, the two prosecutors, meantime, who made that case and secured the conviction, they were suspended today for no reason that we know of just a day after making factually true statements characterizing the attack on the Capitol, which, again, Toronto seen here circled and some 1,500 other people were pardoned for by the President on his first day back in office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR TORONTO, SUSPECT: So we're in the Capitol Building, Legislative Building, and we're --just stormed it. And, anyway --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Move, move.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Slow talker, he is, but he said we just stormed it, and he was not alone. Obviously, it was recorded on video, an angry mob, thousands of people smashing their way in, many after violently clashing with police, beating some very badly.
We all watched it, several of whom later died shortly thereafter, including two by suicide. We saw and we heard it all unfold as it happened a lot of it live, and we're showing it to you right now. Now, here's how those two prosecutors who were put on leave today described it in their sentencing memo just yesterday, and I quote, "On January 6th, 2021, thousands of people comprising a mob of rioters attacked the U.S. Capitol while a Joint Session of Congress met to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election."
"Toronto was accused of participating in the riot in Washington D.C., by entering the U.S. Capitol building. After the riot, Toronto refused to return to his home in the state of Washington, where he promoted conspiracy theories about the events of January 6th, 2021."
So they filed that yesterday to make the case that he deserved a substantial sentence and were suspended today, according to a person familiar with the matter.
Now, that memo, by the way, was missing from the court document, the docket this afternoon, and has since been re-filed by other prosecutors, minus any description of January 6th.
And though the Justice Department is not saying this is why they were put on leave, the administration has already fired dozens of career prosecutors who handled January 6th cases and pardoned or commuted, obviously, the sentences of everyone connected with the attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: So, this is January 6th, and these are the hostages, approximately 1,500 for a pardon. So, this is a big one.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: He's been calling them hostages, of course, long before that. And rewriting the history of that day for about as long. But if, in fact, it turns out that describing the crowd that stormed the Capitol as a mob was, in fact, what got these prosecutors suspended, it's hard not to conclude they were disciplined for speaking accurately, unless you think that what you see is not a mob, and what you're hearing is not what people in mobs say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROWD chanting Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: They're not saying hang a fence. They're saying, hang Mike Pence, meaning Vice-President Mike Pence, who had to be hustled out of danger along with his family and Secret Service agents, just steps ahead of people trying to grab him, again, things that mobs generally are known to do.
Taylor Toronto was pardoned for his participation in that mob on that day, but was convicted in May of illegally carrying two firearms without a license, unlawfully possessing ammunition, and perpetuating a hoax by threatening to bomb a government office.
He was arrested, as we said, near former President Obama's House in Washington, after prosecutors say he livestreamed video of himself in the woods nearby, saying, and I quote, "Got to get the shot. Stop at nothing to get the shot."
Now, the charging document also says that he visited a Maryland Elementary School, near where Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin lives, saying in a livestream, "I didn't tell anyone where he is because I want him all to myself."
Now, prosecutors say he also made threats against former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, which is fascinating, though, if that's supposed to be an administration that has little tolerance for threats against political figures, no matter who's making them.
[20:05:40]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: It doesn't matter who you are, if you commit an act of violence, a written threat through the mail, we are going to find you. These men behind me are going to hunt you down and find you. We have open cases, other open cases all over this country and we're going to find you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's, of course, Attorney General Pam Bondi, earlier this month, after the arrest of a suspect for allegedly threatening right- wing podcaster Benny Johnson in the days after the murder last month of Charlie Kirk.
So, it's clear that some politically motivated threats from some people are not being tolerated. But for those who threaten the lives and safety of a sitting Vice-President and Speaker of the House and countless lawmakers and law enforcement, on January 6th, we've already seen that different rules seem to apply.
The question tonight, do those rules now extend even to describing what actually happened on that day?
The Justice Department gave CNN's Katelyn Polantz this statement late today: "While we don't comment on personnel decisions, we want to make very clear that we take violence and threats of violence against law enforcement and current or former government officials extremely seriously. We have and will continue to vigorously pursue justice against those who commit or threaten violence without regard to the political party of the offender or the target."
Let's get some perspective now from former federal prosecutor and CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig and former chief-of-staff to Vice- President Mike Pence, Marc Short, who was with the Vice-President on January 6th when he was rushed to a loading dock underneath the Capitol during the mob riot.
So, Elie, when you see the suspensions like this, and again, we don't know for a fact that it was based on what they said in this document. It was the day after they filed it. Hard to imagine what else it might have been.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, the timing is hard to ignore. I think of this as phase three in the Justice Department, it's really a systematic effort to reverse and sanitize January 6th. Phase one was the pardons, right, 1,500-plus people, including some who attacked and injured police officers.
Phase two was the firing months ago of dozens of career experienced prosecutors and FBI agents for the sin of handling these cases as they should have handling them well.
And Phase three, now, we're into the language sanitization portion of the proceedings. You get suspended, apparently, for using the word mob using the word riot. And I want to point out one other important difference.
So, as you mentioned in the open, there were two sentencing memos. There was the first one which mentioned January 6th. Then there was the new one just filed, which takes out January 6th. There's another really important difference between the first and second memos.
The first memo mentions the fact that hours before Mr. Toronto was found wandering near the Obamas' home, armed in his van, with guns and ammo in his van, he re-tweeted Donald Trump's social media post announcing the address of the Obamas. That's a really relevant fact, that's in the first memo, and it's removed from the second memo.
So, not only are they sanitizing language, they're removing relevant facts from their court filings.
COOPER: Marc, as someone who experienced the capitol attack firsthand, front row with Vice-President Pence, I'm wondering when you hear current Trump administration officials, you know, in filings repeatedly whitewashing what happened that day, if mob of rioters isn't an accurate description. I mean, what is?
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE-PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Yes, Anderson, look, I think that obviously they're a lot of emotions caught up, led into that day. I think there are a lot of people, you know, friends of mine who look at this and say that there were rioters and protesters in that summer who were not prosecuted in the same way.
And ultimately, the American people decided on last November that this was less of a priority than the issues that they were concerned about, about inflation or their own pocketbook.
But I don't understand, Anderson, the need to sort of, as you say, whitewash it. I mean, if this wasn't a riot by a mob, I don't know how else to explain it. And I believe that there were probably, you know, some people who got caught up in something stupid on that day.
But, you know, Elie probably knows this better than I do. But there were a lot of the judges who convicted and sentenced these people who were Trump appointed judges. And the reality is that my conversation with them is that nobody really got a sentence unless they were physically harming police.
And so for our party, that is the party of law and order to embrace sort of pardoning the 1,500 they were focused on one today. But there's been several incidences of recidivism here where others, as you know, just recently, Hakeem Jeffries, there was there was a threat on his life by somebody who had been pardoned.
There are others who have been arrested for DUI, others for domestic abuse. And so it's not like these are people who, you know, are the best of our society. In fact, those that actually got prosecuted and convicted and sentenced to jail time were those who were physically harming police, not those who happen to be wandering the Capitol because they got caught up in something stupid.
[20:10:28]
COOPER: And Elie, I mean, it seems right now things are kind of upside down. So, the only people who have really suffered lasting impacts of this are police officers who were wounded. Those who took their lives, who died in subsequent days, the prosecutors who were assigned cases as part of their jobs to prosecute some of these people, and, you know, perhaps these two prosecutors who used the word mob.
HONIG: They're really the only ones who suffered any lasting consequences, to Marc's point, yes. Several of these judges who imposed sentences of imprisonment on January 6th rioters were Trump appointees. You had Trump appointees, you had Obama appointees, you had Bush appointees. It crossed the ideological spectrum. And I also want to make another important point here. The conduct of this individual, Mr. Toronto, the fact that he participated in this mob, in this riot is absolutely relevant to his sentencing.
You would absolutely -- even though he was pardoned, fine. He doesn't get the credit of a prior conviction, but as a prosecutor, you would a hundred percent point that out. In fact, it's worse because he was given a second chance and then he went and committed a new crime.
COOPER: Elie Honig, Marc Short, thank you so much.
Up next, the videos that the Department of Homeland Security is putting out, which certainly show plenty of action but aren't necessarily showing what they claim to or where.
And later, something to make you smile at the end of the day, my conversation with legendary movie maker and music writer, Cameron Crowe about his five decades long career, which started at age 15, interviewing rock stars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMERON CROWE, LEGENDARY MOVIE MAKER AND MUSIC WRITER: I called "Rolling Stone" the next day, like, this is Cameron from San Diego. I have a scoop about the secret Bob Dylan album. They're like hold on a second.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:16:28]
COOPER: The Trump administration clearly prioritizes how their work is seen on T.V. and videos and on social media, and that certainly applies to crackdowns on immigration and protests in a number of Democratic run cities and states. A new investigation by "The Washington Post" titled "We Checked DHS's Videos of Chaos and Protests Here's What They Leave Out," found that, "Trump administration videos purporting to show the triumph of recent immigration operations use footage that was months old or recorded thousands of miles away as analysis found.
Let me show you a few examples, this is video posted on social media by the White House with the text, "An incompetent mayor, a delusional governor, Chicago is in chaos. The American people are paying the price. Chicago doesn't need political spin, it needs help." Here's just part of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They need help badly. Chicago desperately needs help. We don't want to lose Chicago. We're going to lose Chicago. We want to save these place.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, that first shot under which the President says they need help isn't Chicago during the second Trump administration, but actually Uvalde, Texas, in August of last year when President Biden was in office.
We know this because the video is publicly available and identified with that information by the Department of Defense. Here's another one. It's a video posted on social media by the Department of Homeland Security on August 17th of this year with a message that begins, "This week, DHS moved to restore our nation's capital to its former glory". Let's watch just part of that narrating as a DHS communications official named, Micah Bach.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICAH BACH, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY AT DHS: Now that the border is secure, the battle for the soul of our nation turns inward as federal agents work day and night to arrest, detain, and deport vicious criminals from our nation's capital.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So the last shot before we see Mr. Bach is not our nation's capital during a week in August, but actually West Palm Beach, Florida, on February 11th, just 20 days or so after President Trump took office. That's about 1,000 miles from D.C., but a stone's throw from mar a Mar-a-Lago.
One more, this one also posted by DHS, begins with the text "Recapture our national identity" and features the same official.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BACH: For decades, our government failed its people. Our borders were open to illegal criminals who flooded our communities and decimated our way of life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The last shot, labeled as New York City, is actually from this video, identified by the Department of Defense as International Waters off of the Eastern Pacific Ocean in July of 2019, during the first Trump administration, "The Washington Post" provided a detailed list of videos featuring misleading footage to the Department of Homeland Security, and a spokeswoman did not dispute the errors, but said they were a small percentage of the more than 400 the agency has posted this year and that, "violence and rioting against law enforcement is unacceptable, regardless of where it occurs".
Now, "The Washington Post" also reached out to The White House. A spokeswoman there did not address the errors but said, "The Trump administration will continue to highlight the many successes of the President's agenda through engaging content and banger memes on social media." I was unfamiliar with the term or the spelling of it.
Joining me with more is Juliette Kayyem, former assistant secretary with the Department Of Homeland Security and currently CNN's senior national security analyst.
So, does it make sense to you? I mean, how would you characterize this -- just sloppy, misleading, you know, using footage they think is great, even if it's not where they say it is?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: No, these aren't mistakes. These aren't errors, this isn't confusion on DHS's part. They have an apparatus, a public policy or communications apparatus that is pulling images that they want and then putting them out. And it's -- if it were about safety you know, then you wouldn't be grabbing mothers and fathers who are no threat to the United States. If this was about legality, you wouldn't be pulling people from courtrooms who are trying to regularize their status and if this were about order, you wouldn't detain, as we now know, over 170 Americans. This is about performance. This is performative deportation and it's for the show and therefore not to be believed.
COOPER: If Americans can't rely on the images the Homeland Security Department is putting out there to be accurate -- I mean, again, you can say, look, these are just, you know, images here and there, but if they don't actually care about the accuracy of what they're putting out, it does -- it makes me question just as a, I mean certainly somebody news, if we were putting out images that were not where we said that would be something we'd apologize for and trace down how that happened, try to make sure it never happened again.
KAYYEM: That's exactly right, but they -- they only -- it's not that they don't care. Is that this is what they want. They need to create hysteria to therefore justify through courtroom proceedings, through social media what they're doing in these cities.
Part of this is just leadership at the Department of Homeland Security. Secretary Noem likes her costumes. She likes the performance, she likes these images. They're investing in drone cameras. Every time I see one of these deportations on air, you see a film crew about it.
And so, what it does is it undermines trust. I have an ironic story for you. Before I came on air, I was like, you know, Trump is being very effective at the border. The border crossings are almost negligible now. These are good numbers. I have been a critic of the Biden administration about their border policy.
So, I went online and I looked at the numbers and the numbers are telling me this is good news, but they're from CBP, they're from Customs and Border Protection. And I have to sort of catch myself. I don't know if I should trust them. Should I tell them to you?
And when you don't have trust in government about numbers, you won't have trust when you need the government to act -- a hurricane, a terror attack, a cybercrime, whatever it is -- I will most as they begin to not focus on trust, but focus on the performance, it's going to have an impact for many Americans in terms of whether DHS is a place that you go to for truth. Right now, it's not.
COOPER: Juliette Kayyem, thank you very much. Coming up next, Hurricane Melissa.
A live report from one of the hardest hit parts of Jamaica, as well as a look at what is happening where the storm is right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:27:42]
COOPER: More breaking news tonight: Hurricane Melissa now a Category 1 storm, while its strength has weakened, it is still bringing heavy winds, drenching rains and dangerous storm surge to the Bahamas.
In Jamaica, where hurricane smashed into parts of the island yesterday, residents are dealing with terrible conditions in a number of areas, one official calling the aftermath catastrophic.
Melissa hit Jamaica as one of the strongest Atlantic hurricanes on record. At least four peoples bodies are reported to have been recovered in hard hit Saint Elizabeth Parish in the southwest part of the island. On the north side, here's a mother in Montego bay on the hurricane's impact.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yesterday was horrible, horrific, terrifying. The worst day of my entire life. The worst experience of my entire life. To see my place being flooded out, it was terrifying for me and my child. The water level reached me to my waist. I was stuck in my house. They had to break into my home to save me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: In Cuba, people in the hurricane's destructive path are facing significant damage to their homes, as well as heavy flooding and lots of trees that have been snapped.
Melissa also hit hard in Haiti, at least 23 people are reported to have died after a flooded river burst its banks. CNN meteorologist, Derek Van Dam joins us now from Saint Elizabeth Parish in Jamaica.
Tonight, obviously, a lot of concern about damage in the City of Black River in Saint Elizabeth Parish. What can you tell us?
DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, that's right, Anderson, the Prime Minister of Jamaica saying that Black River is the epicenter of Hurricane Melissa's wrath and what you're looking at now is the streets of Santa Cruz leading into the Black River region. But we are still several miles out, roughly 15 miles away from the hardest impact that epicenter that the Prime Minister so rightly claims.
So, 90 percent of the buildings there completely destroyed when they took on 16 feet of water, a combination of river inland flooding and storm surge that knocked out their complete infrastructure and some of their pre-staged accommodations that they had there, including supplies, medical supplies and food. I want to just give you a scene set, an indication of what they're doing here. That is a bulldozer in the background, and it is clearing heavy debris from the almost literal wall of water that rushed through this town, leaving this streets completely filled with mud, rock, sheet metal, rebar.
This is just a drop in the hat -- a drop in the bucket of the destruction that we've witnessed today because we were on the front lines of the Jamaican Defense Agency, as well as local NGOs, international NGOs, as well as the police and just simple volunteers trying to clear the roads so they could bring this incredible, aid into the hardest hit areas, that being Black River.
COOPER: Yeah.
VAN DAM: And again, it is almost impossible to get there. The roads are flooded once again today.
COOPER: Derek Van Dam, thanks. As we've been reporting, American tourists in the Caribbean have been stranded by the hurricane. Tonight, I want to update you on Adam and Jordan Simmons from South Carolina. They're in Jamaica for their honeymoon. We first spoke on Monday as the storm was approaching, and we spoke again earlier tonight. Jordan, Adam, how are you doing? What are you able to see in terms of damage?
ADAM SIMMONS, HONEYMOONER IN JAMAICA: Yeah. Anderson, first of all, all of us are safe. The staff wanted us to pass along that all 156 guests and all 180 staff are safe. So that's the main concern. So we just want to pass along that. As far as the structure and the things that we're seeing around, we actually were in a shelter area for about 28 hours from 7:00 a.m. until 11 this morning. But they've started to open up some of the grounds around the resort for us to get some fresh air, since we don't have AC and spotty Wi-Fi.
But there's not a building that doesn't need a new roof. There's ceilings that have fallen throughout the areas. There's glass everywhere. There's boarded up areas that are just too hazardous to approach. There's water leaking, there's insulation that's being seen. And we're not even talking about the outside. That's just the structure issues. We can see downed trees. We can see shingles everywhere. We can see boarded pieces from like the deck or a boardwalk, however you would determine (ph) it. So, there's a lot of devastation, a lot of damage that's still even being assessed at this moment by management.
COOPER: What was it like, I mean, at the height of the storm, you're in that shelter. Where you hearing a lot? Where you hearing wind? Or -- I don't know how secure the shelter was. How much could you tell of the tumult outside?
JORDAN SIMMONS, HONEYMOONER IN JAMAICA: So we said if we were ever in a hurricane again, this is the place we want to be because we barely heard it. The building didn't shake, nothing. Management did everything to a T, they executed every protocol. COOPER: And are you getting any information from emergency officials about the coming hours, how many days it's going to be before you can come home?
A. SIMMONS: So specifically, no.
(LAUGH)
A. SIMMONS: We're getting a lot of information from friends and family back home. But again, when management is dealing with our safety which is established, they're addressing obviously the property issues. We are being told by some of the staff as we ask them how they're doing, about their loved ones, their living situations, that they are unable to contact their loved ones. We've been notified that some have found out that their home is a total loss. So, the mood right now is grateful to be alive, but also --
J. SIMMONS: Heartbroken.
A. SIMMONS: -- a long road ahead, for sure. For sure.
J. SIMMONS: Yeah.
COOPER: Yeah. Well, Jordan and Adam Simmons, I'm glad you're safe and everybody there is safe, and I'm glad the staff is safe. And I'm sorry obviously, for what they may find when they go home. But, I hope you're able to go home soon. I wish you the best. Thank you.
A. SIMMONS: Absolutely. Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Coming up next, my interview with legendary music journalist and filmmaker, Cameron Crowe. He first made a name for himself interviewing Rock'n Roll Royalty in the '70s when he was just 15- years-old, including a huge scoop from Kris Kristofferson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMERON CROWE, JOURNALIST, FILMMAKER, AUTHOR "THE UNCOOL": And he started to talk. And he told me about loneliness on the road. He told me about a secret album that had just been recorded in Mexico with Bob Dylan, which nobody knew about. So he gave me a scoop of huge proportions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:39: 02]
COOPER: There are a few people in this world whose careers could inspire envy like Cameron Crowe. He started out as a music journalist in 1973 and he was 15-years-old. Crowe went on to interview rock legends like Gregg Allman, Jimmy Page, Tom Petty, countless others. By 16, he had his first cover on Rolling Stone. He turned those early years into the amazing movie, "Almost Famous," which if you haven't seen it, you should watch it tonight. He got an Oscar for the screenplay. He also wrote, produced, directed "Jerry Maguire." He writes about all of this in a remarkable new book, which I really, really liked. It's called "The Uncool: A Memoir." The title is a reference to an iconic scene in "Almost Famous" when jaded rock critic Lester Bangs consoles the film's autobiographical hero, a budding teenage music journalist himself getting burnt out on the road.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM MILLER, PLAYED BY PATRICK FUGIT, ALMOST FAMOUS: Well, it was fun.
LESTER BANGS, PLAYED BY PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN, ALMOST FAMOUS: Because they make you feel cool. And hey. I met you. You are not cool.
[20:40:00]
MILLER: I know. Even when I thought I was, I knew I wasn't.
BANGS: That's because we're uncool.
MILLER: I'm glad you were home.
BANGS: I'm always home. I'm uncool.
MILLER: Me too.
BANGS: You're doing great. The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Philip Seymour Hoffman, I spoke with Cameron Crowe just before air.
First of all, thank you so much for doing this. This book is such a joy and so well written. I mean, obviously you're a great writer --
COOPER: But this is not a surprise.
CROWE: Thank you.
COOPER: But, it's a different thing to write a book.
CROWE: It is. Screenplay writing is definitely a craft that can take you decades and decades. But at the heart of it is like personal writing that I just love to do, long-form writing on yellow legal tablets on -- with pen, pencil.
COOPER: That's how you started? Long form?
CROWE: Yeah, definitely.
COOPER: Your mom took you to see Bob Dylan when you were seven-years- old. CROWE: She did.
COOPER: Was that the first concert?
CROWE: Yes. That snuck through, Anderson, because he was a figure who was a protest singer. So it was an intellectual pursuit.
COOPER: Interesting.
CROWE: But the other stuff, like even the Beatles, it was possibly an avenue for sex, promiscuity, drugs, that other lifestyle that killed brain cells. That was the request, always like, be noble, save your brain cells. And --
COOPER: Which is why she lived to a ripe old age.
CROWE: 97. Yeah, 97. And passed away on September 11th and born on the 4th of July.
COOPER: Wow.
CROWE: She was an epic figure and always with a sense of drama, but always wanting to like help people and counsel people. There's -- she always wanted to be in the movies that I directed. And she pops up in them. She's in Jerry Maguire right before Tom Cruise comes in and says, "You complete me." She's part of the divorced women's group. And she's literally counseling the other actors who forgets the camera is on.
(LAUGH)
CROWE: And she's talking about the neuro pathways of the brain and everything that, that lives forever as a vision of her essence (ph).
COOPER: I love what she said to you after you left the Bob Dylan concert. Do you remember this, about Republicans?
CROWE: Oh, yeah. The Republicans are going to take over and they're going to -- they're going to go after the school teachers. They're going to ruin education. Watch out.
COOPER: Well, what you say in the book is that after you're -- you're seven-years-old, she brings you to Bob Dylan.
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: You're blown away by it. Your sister is blown away by it. And your mom, sorry, I scribbled this in notes that are almost incomprehensible. Your mom turns to you and says, well, someday the Republicans are going to ruin all of this for everybody.
CROWE: That's right. For everybody.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: Like, what a random thing to say after Bob Dylan. CROWE: I know. Well, there was a big Barry Goldwater campaign poster on a telephone pole. And she was like, that's the future. I see it coming. And let's just say --
COOPER: I mean, she --
(LAUGH)
COOPER: She wasn't wrong about the Republican future.
CROWE: She wasn't wrong. She also always would say, whenever I would stumble or have a career problem, it was like, be the most enthusiastic person you know. Get in there and just be that person.
COOPER: It's interesting because I didn't really grow up with music.
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: And I feel like I missed a key part of the human experience. I mean, just music wasn't really played in my house too much. But it's --
CROWE: Not too late.
COOPER: But it was very important to me, like my first concert was either Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five at the Roxy.
CROWE: Wow.
COOPER: Or Elvis Costello which -- I'm going with Elvis Costello because I think that's a --
CROWE: Great.
COOPER: -- for me, a cooler --
CROWE: Oh, yeah.
COOPER: "The Armed Forces," That was the first album I loved. But it was very important. I have a three and a five-year-old. It was very important that my son's first concert experience be one that when he said it as an adult, people would be like, oh, that's cool. So I took him to see Laurie Anderson.
CROWE: I love that.
COOPER: Which -- and she was one -- I had interviewed her for 60, so we were able to go backstage.
CROWE: Right.
COOPER: And my son was transfixed by Laurie Anderson. It was a part of an opera she had done about recently about Amelia Earhart. And she was playing --
CROWE: Wow. COOPER: -- like an hour and he sat there transfixed. It was incredible.
CROWE: And that'll imprint, you know.
COOPER: Yeah.
CROWE: That'll be there. That'll always be there.
COOPER: Yeah.
CROWE: You can talk about it. He'll feel it. And --
COOPER: Your writing, as I said, is, is obviously great.
CROWE: Thank you.
COOPER: You described one of an early boyfriend that your sister had. You said he was a swimmer. He said he looked like summer and smelled like chlorine. I mean --
CROWE: Chlorine.
COOPER: Yeah.
CROWE: Yep. That's right.
COOPER: And it's sort of, I mean, it instantly evokes just a whole -- this would've been what? In the early '70s, late '60s?
CROWE: Late '60s. Yeah.
COOPER: Late '60s. I mean, you can see it, you know?
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: There is also a line about your house. You say our house in Indio smells like wood chips, hamster pellets and wilted cabbage.
CROWE: Yes.
COOPER: Which brought me back to my hamster childhood. Like, where have all the hamsters gone? I feel like hamsters were such a huge thing in the late '60s, early '70s.
CROWE: I know.
COOPER: I had -- and you had a ton of them in your house. I had hamster wheels. They were having babies.
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: They were eating their babies.
CROWE: Eating their babies.
COOPER: Yeah.
CROWE: They were ferocious little beasts.
COOPER: It's like quicksand. What happened to quicksand?
CROWE: What happened?
COOPER: Which I heard some comedian talk about recently, which is probably where I got it from. But hamsters, what happened to hamsters?
CROWE: I don't know. They would bite. They would like breed and then eat their babies.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: They would literally eat their babies.
CROWE: I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: And it was literally like, you'd wake up in the morning. I know this is probably not where you thought the interview was going to go.
CROWE: I love it.
COOPER: But you would wake up in the morning, so excited to see your hamsters and the babies, and then like, be like, oh my God, the mother or dad ate the babies.
[20:45:00]
CROWE: The carnage was epic.
(LAUGH)
CROWE: And yet, your kids, you're thinking --
COOPER: What are (ph) one of the flies in the hamster wheel.
CROWE: Yeah. And this -- and speaking to my mom, she would say things like, you know, there's pain and there's beauty in life. It's right there before you, focus on the beauty, and you're looking at this poor hamster that's like -- yeah.
COOPER: But the smell of hamster. I mean, as soon as I read that, I was like -- it took -- it was like a sense memory. It took me back.
CROWE: Yeah. My poor sister Cindy would walk through the kitchen and go, oh my God, when can I get out? Where -- where can I go? Yeah. It was -- my hobbies were, leaned into in the --
COOPER: Can you just talk about your experience interviewing Kris Kristofferson?
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: You couldn't get into the bar.
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: Because, how old were you when you were?
CROWE: 15.
COOPER: 15?
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: Well, what did these rock stars think when this, I mean, 15- year-old kid shows up?
CROWE: He felt a little sorry for me, I think, because his wife-to-be Rita Coolidge kind of talked him into doing this interview.
COOPER: This is the photo.
CROWE: There it is.
COOPER: So this wasn't in the bar. This was like in the hallway to the bar.
CROWE: No, this is right outside the bar. Like to his right is a guy in a little like Bolero outfit, who won't let me in. And so he stuck there and people are streaming past, like holding a margarita going, that's the movie star, Kris Kristofferson. He's like, hey (ph), and he listened to my questions. And once again, I got worried that he didn't like one of my questions about like, do you get lonely on the road? So he was quiet and I was like, do I talk? What do I do? And I didn't talk.
And he started to talk. And he told me about loneliness on the road. He told me about a secret album that had just been recorded in Mexico with Bob Dylan, which nobody knew about. So he gave me a scoop of huge proportions. I called Rolling Stone the next day. Like, this is Cameron from San Diego. I have a scoop about the Secret Bob Dylan album.
(LAUGH)
CROWE: They're like, hold on a second, talk to Ben Fong-Torres, our music editor. And Anderson, that's how I first got into Rolling Stone as a writer, courtesy of Kristofferson who hung outside that bar because they wouldn't let me in.
COOPER: But it was courtesy of the silence that you gave him.
CROWE: Yes.
COOPER: And that he wanted to fill --
CROWE: Yeah. COOPER: -- the void of, or it gave him time to think and decided to fill the void. I find the silence thing I think is such an interesting and important technique.
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: Which is if you -- if you don't -- I mean, I often try to immediately, like, I'm so enthusiastic to talk to someone. I'll sometimes overtalk, but if you just remain silent when somebody has said something and you don't immediately respond, oftentimes they will work to fill that silence. And what they fill that silence with is often the most interesting thing they have said.
CROWE: Because it's in them and it wants to come out.
COOPER: Yes.
CROWE: And that is the best. He, just to talk about Kristofferson for a second, I mean --
COOPER: I mean, Kris Kristofferson, wow.
CROWE: Amazing. Amazing with these electric blue eyes looking at you and you're 15, and he starts telling you like, don't we love it when like music and a movie get together? Like in the last picture show and I'm glad, he's talking to me about the marriage of music and cinema. I didn't know that like years later that would be like my favorite thing, and the thing that drove like my later career as a director. But I'm sitting there going like, he's saying we, like we both went to college together or something. You know?
COOPER: How generous, I mean the --
CROWE: Super generous. And I was able to thank him for it before he passed away. Brandi Carlile was with him at Joni Mitchell's 75th birthday celebration. And I had mentioned something to Brandi and Brandi brought Kris by, who was at a point where he was still battling, I think, it was Alzheimer's. And I looked at him and he had a beautiful smile on his face and I said, thank you for my career. And he just smiled and was really sweet about it.
And I thought like I got to thank him. And I was a little bit like the guy in the picture you had up like, just looking at him like, you --
COOPER: Wow.
CROWE: You're a portal to everything that I dreamed about.
COOPER: Wow.
CROWE: Thank you, Kris.
(LAUGH)
CROWE: I'm a little concerned that I'm doing well here, but like, he -- look at me, he' comfortable. COOPER: Yeah, definitely.
CROWE: I think he wanted to get in, in the room and drink pretty soon after that though.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: It's funny, it reminds me of my mom toward the end of Mickey Rooney's life, and my mom, I guess had maybe met Mickey Rooney once or twice in her life. But, she wrote him a fan letter toward the end of his life, just no reason, just out of the blue. She must have been watching some old movie, to just say to him like, thank you for the extraordinary work you've done. I don't think you've gotten the recognition like --
CROWE: Wow.
COOPER: -- that you deserve. And I just wanted to reach out and just say, I think you're extraordinary and what an extraordinary life you've been living. And -- which I think is just the nicest thing to do.
CROWE: Amazing.
COOPER: You know? And he wrote back this very sweet, sweet note.
CROWE: But isn't it great to like reach out to somebody and just say you're a fan?
COOPER: A hundred percent.
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: Yeah. Lately I've been telling people, I'm rooting for you because --
CROWE: I love that.
COOPER: I am rooting for most people that I meet, and it's nice.
[20:50:00]
I think it's a nice thing to say to people.
CROWE: My friend Mikal Gilmore wrote a great review of Frank Sinatra at a concert, and Sinatra wrote him a thank you letter that's spectacular.
COOPER: OK. So I got to now tell you, my mom dated Frank Sinatra for a two-week period.
CROWE: Wow.
COOPER: -- in like the mid-'50s. And I've been going through all the things she left behind and I found a stack of telegrams from Frank Sinatra during this two-week period, and actually for years after. They are exactly what you would want telegrams from Frank Sinatra to be in love. And they're literally like --
CROWE: Wow.
COOPER: Babe, your fellow on the white horse is coming to town. Call me, Crestview 4567 ring a ding ding. And I mean, they are incredible.
CROWE: Let's call the number. Let's see who answers.
(LAUGH)
CROWE: Come on.
COOPER: I know, I did do. Ironic (ph), I think --
(LAUGH)
CROWE: That's spectacular.
COOPER: Yeah. Star, I think of you more than I should, call me.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: I'm in the Encino Airport, about to take off, thinking of you more than I should. I'm just like --
(LAUGH)
CROWE: More than I should?
COOPER: More than I should.
CROWE: Come on, Frank Sinatra writing a letter. You want him to write that letter. Anderson, that's amazing.
COOPER: On "Fast Times at Ridgemont High," I'm sorry I'm going so long, but I'm just --
CROWE: Bust out one of those letters. Come on.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: I wanted to -- I want to talk to you for a long time.
CROWE: That's nice.
COOPER: Fast Times at Ridgemont High is based on a book you wrote, which was based on what was going to be an article for --
CROWE: Yeah.
COOPER: -- for Rolling Stone. I just want to play a scene from this featuring a very young Sean Penn.
CROWE: Great.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEFF SPICOLI, PLAYED BY SEAN PENN, FAST TIMES AT RIDGEMONT HIGH: Sorry, I'm late. It's just like this new schedule is totally confusing. And I know that dude.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Spicoli?
SPICOLI: That's in the game. You ripping my car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
SPICOLI: Hey bud, what's your problem?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No problem at all. I think you know where the front office is.
SPICOLI: You dick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGH)
COOPER: You wrote the screenplay for that. No?
CROWE: I did.
COOPER: Yes.
CROWE: And I felt like that line, "You dick" was essential to the character.
(LAUGH)
CROWE: He would not say --
COOPER: You fought for that line.
CROWE: I fought for that line and I fought for him to practice the line with me. Sean was in character the whole movie.
COOPER: He was really.
CROWE: Yeah. And I -- we would go out for a pizza late at night. He's in character and I would just say, just say "You dick."
(LAUGH)
CROWE: Because I just got to hear it. It's so -- it's really important. He'd say, nope, on the day I'll say it. And sure enough we're -- when that scene is happening, we're behind the camera gathered, like waiting for the miracle to maybe arrive where he would say it in the way that we dreamed of. And obviously, he not only said it that way, but better. But he saved it for the moment. He was such a skilled young dude. Yeah.
COOPER: Cameron Crowe, it is such an honor and pleasure.
CROWE: Likewise.
COOPER: The book is "The Uncool." It is -- I mean, it's so cool and it is so good. And I'm just so --
CROWE: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: It's my favorite book in a long, long time. Thank you so much.
CROWE: Thank you. Amazing.
COOPER: Yeah. Thrilling.
CROWE: Now back to the Frank Sinatra letters.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: Right, right.
If you couldn't tell, I'm rooting for Cameron Crowe. The book is really good.
Coming up next, some inspiration from everyday people doing extraordinary things. Meet the top-five CNN Heroes of 2025 and see how you can pick the top one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:55]
COOPER: For 19 years, CNN Heroes has been saluting everyday people who are dedicating their lives to making the world a better place. Well, today, we announced the top-five CNN Heroes of 2025. And you can help decide right now which one of them will become the next CNN Hero of the Year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): In Chicago, Quilen Blackwell is cultivating opportunities for low-income youth to blossom. His social enterprise transforms vacant lots on the city's south side into flower farms, training and empowering young people to grow, harvest, and sell the blooms.
From San Rafael, California, Heidi Carman and her non-profit are on a mission to ease the stress of first responders, connecting them with visits from certified therapy dogs that bring much needed comfort and relief.
In Los Angeles, former Assistant Director, Hillary Cohen is making sure that gourmet meals left over from TV and film sets aren't going to waste. Her non-profit rescues excess food and delivers it to people in need, saving it from landfills and reducing hunger.
From Indianapolis, former Crime Reporter, Debra Des Vignes is using the power of writing to transform lives behind bars. Her program helps incarcerated people process trauma, build community, and share their stories.
And in Gallatin, Tennessee, Tim Woodward and his Animal Rescue Corps respond to large-scale cruelty cases, mobilizing to save lives from further suffering and give them a fresh start.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (on camera): Five remarkable people, proof that one person can make a difference. You can go to cnn.com/heroes to vote up to 10 times a day to help the heroes who inspire you the most. On December 6th, when Laura Coates and I host " CNN Heroes: An All-Star Tribute," it's a special event and you won't want to miss it.
A quick reminder, a new season of my podcast, "All There Is," is out. Don't miss a deeply moving conversation with country music superstar, Luke Bryan about loss and grief in his life and how he tries to help others with their pain. That's at cnn.com/allthereis. You can also listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. And I'm starting a weekly companion show called, "All There Is Live." It's going to be live streamed tomorrow night and every Thursday night at 09:15 on our grief community page --
