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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Trump Backtracks On Releasing Video Of Second Strike On Alleged Drug Boat: Whatever Hegseth Wants To Do Is Okay With Me; KFile: Hegseth In 2016 Repeatedly Warned Of Trump Issuing Unlawful Military Orders; National Park Service Adds Flag Day, Trump's Birthday, To List Of Free Days, Removes Milk Day And Juneteenth; Former Olympian Now Alleged Drug Kingpin Accused Of Ordering Killing Of Witness; Ex-Trump Lawyer Alina Habba Resigns As Acting U.S. Atty. For NJ. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired December 08, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Erin, I think this is not the last were going to hear of this issue. And so far, some of the courts are not going his way.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Tom Foreman, thank you very much. And thanks so much, as always to all of you for joining us. We'll see you back here tomorrow night, in the meantime it's time now for "AC360."

[20:00:31]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, Wednesday, the President said he had no problem with the Pentagon releasing classified video of the boat strike that killed two survivors clinging to wreckage. Today, he says he didn't say that. And now, with lawmakers in both parties seeking more transparency, we're keeping them honest.

Also tonight, what's behind the National Park service cutting Martin Luther King's birthday and Juneteenth from their list of free entrance days and replacing them with Flag Day, which also happens to be the birthday of Donald Trump.

And later, the rewards now up to $15 million in the global manhunt for a fugitive Olympic snowboarder and alleged drug kingpin accused, among other things, of ordering the execution of a federal witness against him.

Good evening, thanks for joining us.

We begin tonight with bipartisan pressure growing on the administration to release that unedited video of the U.S. air attack on an alleged drug boat in the Caribbean back in early September.

As you know, all 11 on board were killed, nine initially, two in a second strike. And today we learned that some lawmakers are using part of a must pass bill to try and get more transparency on it. They've inserted language into the new National Defense Authorization Act, the Defense Budget, it's tucked away on Page 818, calling for a quarter of Defense Secretary Hegseth's travel budget to be withheld unless the Pentagon turns over currently classified boat strike video to the House and Senate Arms Services Committees.

Now, when asked about it today, Senate Majority Leader John Thune said he was unaware of the provision of the bill or why it had been added. He also refused to say whether the full video of the September second strike should actually come out.

As for the President, he too was asked about that today, specifically about a commitment he seemed to make on the subject last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Mr. President, you said you would have no problem with releasing the full video of that strike on September 2nd off the Coast of Venezuela. Secretary Hegseth now says --

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I didn't say that. You said that, I didn't say that. This is ABC fake news.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, you don't have to take ABC News' word on it or any news organizations. Just take it from Donald J. Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: You released video of that first boat strike on September 2nd, but not the second video. Will you release video of that strike so that the American people can see for themselves?

TRUMP: I don't know what they have, but whatever they have would certainly release, no problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, that was the President just five days ago. So, either he no longer remembers that or wasn't especially serious when he did. And when pressed further on it today by that same ABC News correspondent. Here's how he responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Are you committing to releasing the full video?

TRUMP: Didn't I just tell you that.

REPORTER: You said that it was up to secretary.

TRUMP: You're the most obnoxious reporter in the whole place? Let me just tell you, you are an obnoxious -- a terrible, actually, a terrible reporter. And it's always the same thing with you. I told you, whatever Pete Hegseth wants to do is okay with me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So this, of course, not the first time he has snapped at a reporter, especially a female reporter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: If there's nothing incriminating in the file, sir, why not --

TRUMP: Quiet, quiet, piggy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: It's kind of become a thing with this President lashing out at women, asking him questions. He's done the same with CNN's Kaitlan Collins. In today's case, with ABC's Rachel Scott, there is history. This is what he said during the campaign at a gathering of the National Association of Black Journalists. She asked him, "Why should Black voters trust you"? Here's how he responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, first of all, I don't think I've ever been asked a question so, in such a horrible manner, first question. You don't even say, hello. How are you? Are you with ABC? Because I think they're a fake news network. A terrible network.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, today he called her the most obnoxious reporter in the whole place. Scott had good reason to try to pin the President down what he actually wants. Because over the weekend, his Defense Secretary was either not willing or not able to say what he intends to do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOST: When can we see that video? When will you release it?

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We're reviewing it right now to make sure sources, methods, I mean, it's an ongoing operation. We've got operators out there doing this right now. So, whatever we were to decide to release, we'd have to be very responsible about. So we're reviewing that right now.

HOST: So, Mr. Secretary, you will be releasing that full video?

HEGSETH: We are reviewing it right now.

HOST: Is that a yes or no?

HEGSETH: That is -- the most important thing to me are the ongoing operations in the Caribbean with our folks that use bespoke capabilities, techniques, procedures in the process. I'm way more interested in protecting that than anything else. So, reviewing the process and we'll see.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, the idea of carefully reviewing

these videos for anything that might reveal sensitive intelligence or military sources and methods isn't exactly outlandish, it's just that what you do if you were responsible Defense official. That said, the Pentagon has certainly not hesitated when it comes to releasing the clips we've seen so far pushing many of them social media within minutes of announcing each strike. There's certainly been no time wasted there.

Even though the strikes themselves, all of them have already divided experts, lawmakers and the general public alike. This so-called double tap strike seems different in the questions it raises, which may explain why lawmakers now on both sides of the aisle seem to be saying that the video should be seen.

[20:05:44]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): I think it's really important that this video be made public.

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS: Okay, do you think that the video should be released in full to the American public, as President Trump has said he would support?

SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): So, I personally don't -- I don't have any problem with it.

REP. ADAM SMITH (D-WA): They ought to release the video. If they release the video, then everything that the Republicans are saying will clearly be portrayed to be completely false.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR AND POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Should it be released?

REP. JOHN CURTIS (R-UT): I think if you're going to air, in my opinion, you err on the side of transparency. The American people, they like to make decisions too based on facts, not just on what we tell them. And the more we can give them that information, the more comfortable they're going to feel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Joining me now, retired Army Captain Margaret Donovan, who served in the military's judge advocate generals corps as a former federal prosecutor, also former Deputy of Pentagon Press Secretary Sabrina Singh, who is a CNN political commentator and journalist and co-founder of "Lift Our Voices", Gretchen Carlson, who actually worked with Pete Hegseth back at Fox News. Captain Donovan, what is your reaction to the Pentagon declining, at least for now, to release this video?

MARGARET DONOVAN, FORMER JAG: I think that they need to release it. The American public needs transparency. We've basically been shadow boxing with the facts of what actually happened over the past week and a half. And it pains me to say that because I have seen strike videos and they are not always pretty things to watch. But I do think with the amount of conjecture and shifting stories that have arisen over this particular incident, the only thing that's going to answer the questions and to give the public some clarity is this video.

COOPER: Why would the video, though, give so much clarity? I mean, if it's two guys on a boat clinging and then waving to a, you know, a drone or something overhead?

DONOVAN: Sure. I think that any objective viewer of that video will see it for what it is, which what I suspect that it is, which is two helpless human beings who were targeted with some of the most powerful forces of the United States Military for no justified reason.

COOPER: Gretchen, I mean, it's interesting. The administration was certainly comfortable releasing all those videos of boat strikes and getting them out very quickly. And the President even released the first strike on this.

GRETCHEN CARLSON, CO-FOUNDER, "LIFT OUR VOICES": And they released another strike since he said five days ago that he would release this one. That one was in the Pacific Ocean. So, to your point, it's not that they're not releasing these videos. It just happens to be this one. I think the key here is that there was 41 minutes between the first strike and the second strike. So, what happened?

And also, they have not taken any other prisoners since they've had the opportunity to do that with future strikes or strikes after September 2nd. So, what is it about this particular one?

The last thing I'll say about this is the Epstein files. Okay? You cannot stop the story from happening when you don't release the information. We saw that play out over the last six months with the Epstein files. They need to release this video, or there's going to be a continued public outcry.

COOPER: Sabrina, you worked at the Pentagon at the Press Department. If that second strike was done properly, why not release it?

SABRINA SINGH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Well, I think to what the conversation is around is like there is this gruesomeness of war here. I mean, we are talking about human beings being killed in international waters. And so, if this had happened under the Biden administration, you know, there would be a declassification process that we would go to go through, similar to how these videos are released.

But I do think for transparency's sake, and certainly to what Gretchen is saying here, there is this continuous drip, drip coming from this administration. And the more you conceal, the more you hide, the more doublespeak that we get from Pete Hegseth, the more the public deserves to know the answers to what exactly happened that day.

And frankly, the Department of Defense is asking for a nearly trillion dollar budget. So, I think American taxpayers deserve to know where their money is going, especially when these are multimillion dollar platforms being used to blow up small speedboats. I mean, they deserve accountability and transparency as well.

COOPER: Captain Donovan, I mean, there would be, there's a lot more evidence than just this video. There would be, there were a lot of bias on this and lot of communications about it.

DONOVAN: Yes absolutely. So you would have eyewitnesses who would have seen the video while it was playing at real time. You would also have chat logs.

So, whenever you're in a strike zone and you're prosecuting an airstrike, you have a lot of different players in that room, and they need to be able to communicate. They may not all be co-located in the same location. So, you would have chat logs, you might have e-mails, you would have something called BDA, Battle Damage Assessment.

And that's what happens when you put surveillance over a target after you've prosecuted a strike. And the person who is in charge of logging the BDA would mark what they see, whether or not you've actually hit the target. So, all of that would be and should be documented and preserved according to law.

COOPER: Do you think it's going to be released?

CARLSON: Do I?

COOPER: Yes.

CARLSON: Well, you have Laura Loomer now, conspiracy theorist who has Trump's ear saying that she's against these strikes. You have another conservative comedian, Tim Dillon, saying that he thinks that they're not releasing the video because they're covering up for the Epstein files.

I mean, look, if you're going to continue to have these influencers who are on Trump's side usually saying that something is wrong here, that's something he can't control. And that leads to more and more conspiracy theories and public outcry. I think they're going to have to.

[20:10:46]

COOPER: Sabrina, the fact, this I mean, all these other's eye, that the Captain was talking about all the other eyes that were on this, the chain of evidence. How is that kept? Is there a chance that that would be released at some point?

SINGH: Well, that chat is something that's classified and usually operated on a classified system. So, it would be hard to declassify that. I mean, you could you could redact it, but that classified chat could be transmitted to Congress along with the entire 41-minute video that I don't think Congress has seen. I think they've only seen a snippet of it.

So, yes, to answer your question, there are ways to declassify. There are ways to redact information. Will the public be able to see all of it? It's unlikely, but at least Congress should. And I think that's where the accountability and transparency Congress needs to keep pushing for that and keep, frankly you know, pushing for Hegseth and Donald Trump to release this video.

COOPER: And, Captain, just one more on this. You believe that this is not a war crime because this was not an act of war. This was -- if it's not a war crime, what is it?

DONAVAN: That's exactly right. I believe that it's an unjustified killing. I hesitate to call it a war crime, because we are not at war and we are not in an armed conflict. To me, it is just murder under federal law.

COOPER: And, Gretchen, just in terms of the way the President continues to lash out at female reporters, I mean.

CARLSON: If it was anyone else, if it was a CEO of a company, if it was a volunteer, if it was a teacher, they would be fired. I think we just all need to ask ourselves, especially parents, is this what we teach our children? Is this what we teach them about how to behave?

There's not a person out there that would say, boy, I hope my child grows up and speaks to women like that. I mean, this is reprehensible. He has gotten worse with it, only doing it, apparently, to women in the last couple of weeks. From piggy to your obnoxious, it's despicable. I wish the press corps would say more, but I understand they want access, so they're not. So, I'll say it for them. It's despicable.

COOPER: Gretchen Carlson, thank you very much, Captain Margaret Donovan, thanks and, Sabrina Singh, thanks so much.

Coming up, newly revealed video dug up by CNN's KFILE of what then citizen Pete Hegseth said back in 2016 about troops following potentially illegal orders of then candidate Trump was elected President.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: Military is not going to follow illegal orders. And so, the Trump campaign was forced to change their position and say, we're going to try to change the law so that the military can operate within the law. That's a tall order also.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Plus, the President and his allies have targeted some of his critics with allegations of mortgage fraud. Well, now there are new questions about the President's own mortgage history. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:17:47]

COOPER: Tonight, CNN's KFile has uncovered video clips from 2016 when Pete Hegseth, who was a Fox News contributor at the time, slammed Presidential candidate Donald Trump about comments he made on the campaign trail.

Now, at the time, candidate Trump said that U.S. troops would not refuse to carry out his orders as commander in chief, even if they were considered extreme. Now, Trump was criticized for proposals he made back then that military lawyers and commanders said would violate the laws of war, including the killing of families of terrorists and using banned forms of torture.

Hegseth said that service members had a duty to refuse to follow unlawful orders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: Military is not going to follow illegal orders. And so, the Trump campaign was forced to change their position and say, we're going to try to change the law so that the military can operate within the law. That's a tall order also.

Here's the problem with Trump, he says, go ahead and kill the families. Go ahead and torture. Go ahead and go further than waterboarding. What happens when people follow those orders or don't follow them? It's not clear that Donald Trump will have their back. Donald Trump is oftentimes about Donald Trump. And so, if you're not changing the law and you're just saying it, you create even more ambiguity for warfighters who already in a tough spot.

HOST: Well, even if he had their back, they'd be in trouble. I mean, you tell me, I had a guy, I had a dad, stop me --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: For the record, candidate Trump later reversed himself and said he would not order service members to disobey the law. As for Pete Hegseth, he's now strongly condemned six Democratic lawmakers who are all military intelligence veterans, for posting a video last month reminding troops that they don't have to follow potentially illegal orders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.

SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): You can refuse illegal orders.

REP. CHRIS DELUZIO (D-PA): You must refuse illegal orders.

SLOTKIN: No one has to carry out orders that violate the law --

REP. MAGGIE GOODLANDER (D-NH): or our constitution.

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): We know this is hard.

KELLY: And that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.

SLOTKIN: But whether you're serving in the CIA. CROW: The Army.

DELUZIO: Or Navy.

GOODLANDER: Air force.

KELLY: Your vigilance is critical.

SLOTKIN: And know that we have your back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Both Hegseth and President Trump have accused the lawmakers of sedition. Hegseth also says they're spreading, "despicable, reckless and false information. He's ordered the Pentagon to investigate Arizona Senator Mark Kelly, a retired Navy captain, and has threatened to recall him to active duty to face a court martial.

Back now with Margaret Donovan and Gretchen Carlson.

[20:20:04]

Captain Donovan, how do you square then, citizen Hegseth's repeatedly raising these concerns about illegal orders with a position he has now taken, seems opposed?

DONAVAN: Yes, so -- it certainly does. I would agree with Secretary Hegseth in 2016 and I agree with what the lawmaker said on that video. I have said I don't think there's anything unlawful about the video that they made. The most persuasive criticism that I've heard and it's not very persuasive, mind you, is that the lawmakers who made that video did not answer the question of what is an unlawful order. And so maybe, maybe you could say that that sowed confusion. I don't think it did. I think that they were simply restating exactly what Secretary Hegseth has.

However, lo and behold, you now have the September 2nd strike, and now we know precisely what type of unlawful order they might be presented with.

COOPER: It is fascinating to see a video like that and you are reminded of how many people have sort of -- there's been an arc, in their opinion on the President Trump.

CARLSON: I mean, you could go back and pull clips of tons of Republicans that would have said similar things or would have criticized Donald Trump when he was running for President the first time. And now, we've seen this complete transition where they're almost always in line with what he's thinking.

However, aside from this issue, I do think there's a bit of a crack within the Republican ranks. We saw it with the Epstein file vote, and were seeing it now where more and more Republicans with this boat strike, they have questions about it.

So yes, I mean, it's funny how time changes things in people's opinions. But I do think we're starting to see a little bit of a crack where some Republicans will actually vote with their conviction instead of just to please Trump.

COOPER: Captain Donovan, I'm wondering what you make of Secretary Hegseth as compared to former heads of the Department of Defense?

DONAVAN: Yes, sure. I mean, compare Secretary Hegseth to James Mattis, right? There is no comparison. We have the warrior monk versus --

COOPER: The Warrior Monk.

DONAVAN: Yes, that's supposedly his nickname because he's so studied and sober. Then you have the Fox News host with some personal discipline problems, and there simply is no comparison when you look at leadership or when you look at experience or even just somebody who you would want to be running military strategy for a major operation, there's no question you would not choose Secretary Hegseth to be in charge of that, and yet, a majority of the Senate has and this is what we're living with.

COOPER: Do you think there's a chance, Gretchen, that the President will ultimately change course with him at some point?

CARLSON: No, Pete Hegseth is performing exactly how President Trump wants him to perform, he's rogue, so, is Donald Trump. I mean, Pete Hegseth is doing things that are sort of outside of the line of what other defense secretaries maybe would have done. And because of that, I actually think he's risen in power, at least under President Trump. I'd be very, very surprised if Pete Hegseth doesn't remain in this role.

COOPER: Where does, I mean, who oversees the Secretary of Defense? I mean, there's nobody at the Pentagon other than the President of the United States.

DONAVAN: It's the President, you know, if he were to be sanctioned in some way, it would be either the President removing him, which he has the ability to do, or it would be Congress impeaching Secretary Hegseth and that is the Oversight. So, there's very little that the public can do unless if they are unhappy with Congress' decisions, they can vote to remove those lawmakers.

COOPER: And the, I mean, it's often said that the Pentagon can kind of grind things to a halt just by the sheer bureaucracy of it, but is that true?

DONAVAN: Yes, I think that there's probably something to that. But, you know, they've been really charging forward on these military operations, and you probably have a secretary who's very invested in this because this is his sort of harebrained idea, right, for how to stop drugs, I think. And so, I would think that he would want to take credit for it and is probably very involved in it.

COOPER: You say harebrained because it's, in terms of a deployment of resources, it's a hammer going after a very small nail. DONAVAN: A very small nail and absolutely, and look, when you compare

this to the DOJ, to the Department of Justice's own policy on this, which, by the way, was published in February by Attorney General Bondi and says, if you were to find those people, the captains of those drug boats in the United States, you would just deport them, you wouldn't even prosecute them. And that is active DOJ policy right now.

CARLSON: That brings us actually to a deeper conversation about the fact that only 10 percent of all the drugs actually come from Venezuela into the United States. The majority of Americans want to stop drugs from coming here. But if we really want to stop fentanyl, then we should be looking at Mexico, where 90 percent of Fentanyl comes from.

So the real political argument here actually takes it out of the Department of Defense. It's about getting rid of the leader of Venezuela, which is Maduro. That's what the goal is here because there's oil in Venezuela. So, we have to dig a little deeper than just these boat strikes.

COOPER: Captain Donovan, appreciate it very much. Gretchen Carlson as well, thank you.

CARLSON: Thanks.

[20:25:02]

COOPER: Ahead tonight, Texas Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett talking to CNN's Laura Coates in her first interview since announcing she's running for the Senate. It's a CNN exclusive. You can see it tonight, 11 P.M. Eastern on "Laura Coates Live".

Up next, National Parks will no longer be free for visitors on Martin Luther King Day and Juneteenth, but President Trump's birthday, which is also Flag Day, will be free.

And the Department Of Defense, excuse me, Department of Justice lashes out at federal judges, accusing them of a campaign of bias against embattled U.S. Attorney Lindsey Halligan. We'll discuss with former U.S. Attorney Michael Moore.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:16]

COOPER: Well, the National Park Service is making changes to its 2026 calendar in which days parks will be free for visitors earning condemnation by the NAACP. No longer free admission days, Martin Luther King Jr. Day and Juneteenth. Which day will be free, you might ask? Instead, President Trump's birthday, which is June 14th, which also happens to be Flag Day.

Now it's worth noting that MLK Day and Juneteenth are federal holidays while Flag Day is not. The move comes after months of attempts by the Trump administration to whitewash American history in our national parks and museums along with many other institutions all in the name of anti-DEI measures.

Back in March, the President took aim at both parks and museums in an executive order titled, quote, "Restoring truth and sanity to American history." In it, he commanded the Secretary of the Interior to ensure that nothing in his jurisdiction, quote, "inappropriately disparage Americans past or living, including persons living in colonial times and instead focus on the greatness of the achievements and progress of the American people."

Joining me now Harvard University proffers and Pulitzer Prize winning historian Annette Gordon-Reed. Thanks for being with us. Excuse me, why do you think the administration has made this move?

ANNETTE GORDON-REED, PRESIDENT, THE ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN HISTORIANS: Well, I can't say that it's surprising. And I think it goes back to the sort of show of hostility, animus, towards things that are connected to black Americans, apparently. So I think it's of a piece with things that have taken place before. You mentioned whitewashing, but the sort of erasing African-American history, which is American history, actually.

COOPER: Yes, it's all there. The -- in the press release, the National Park Service says that their improvements, as they call them, quote, "reflect President Donald J. Trump's commitment to making national parks more accessible, more affordable, and more efficient for the American people." I'm not sure how making Martin Luther King Day in Juneteenth no longer free makes it more affordable for the people.

GORDON-REED: It doesn't -- obviously, it doesn't. It's, again, a part of this idea that anything that has to do with African-American people, people of color, is something called DEI, as if that's illegal.

COOPER: Any kind of --

GORDON-REED: It does not.

COOPER: -- history that involves black people.

GORDON-REED: Yes, anything that involves black people. In some ways, women and other groups, as well. But this is obviously connected to African-American people. But the thing is, Juneteenth and Martin Luther King Day are holidays for all Americans, black, white, whatever color, whatever race. So it's the animus coming from, I think, the administration, not something that's integral to the holidays themselves.

COOPER: Is there anything -- I mean, what do you think is the net effect of all this, long term?

GORDON-REED: Well, the idea is that it sends the message, I think, to young people, to kids who may not know about the history of all of these things, that there's something wrong with a celebration of an African-American man or celebrating a holiday that commemorates the end of slavery, which everybody should have been able -- should be interested in celebrating. So I think it sends a negative message. COOPER: Do you think the national parks visitors will receive free admission, obviously, on President Trump's birthday, which is also Flag Day. Do you think -- had it not been Flag Day, do you think it still would be a free day? Hard to say.

GORDON-REED: It's hard to say. I don't know. I don't know. But that is an interesting coincidence. And it's a good one for them, I suppose.

COOPER: Have you seen -- I mean, you know, the Smithsonian, have you seen the impact of all this already in museums, in art galleries?

GORDON-REED: Yes, I have been an adviser in certain contexts where people wonder about what they can say and what you can't say, that you're going to get in trouble for doing this. And it's the kind of thing you never thought, you know, growing up, that I would ever think that I would be in an America where you would be worried about giving your opinion about something.

COOPER: So you've had encounters where people are kind of self- censoring --

GORDON-REED: Absolutely.

COOPER: -- in advance of or in fear of potential action by the administration.

GORDON-REED: Absolutely. Even though these are things that are protected by the First Amendment, no one wants to -- many people don't want to fight. And the idea of putting yourself through all of that is anathema to some people. And so, yes, there is self-censorship that's already going on. So that's the effect of it.

COOPER: It just feels deeply -- I mean, it's deeply un-American, it feels like, to think that you have museum officials, people in galleries, historians, self-editing themselves.

GORDON-REED: Yes. I mean, that's -- it's heartbreaking to me. As I said, I never thought that I would live in a country where this is the thing that we celebrated about this place, that you were supposed to be able to voice your opinions, argue with people about things, have differing opinions.

But the idea that you can't say something because you're worried about the government coming down on you, that's -- we would have said, that's the Soviet Union. That's not the United States of America.

[20:35:06]

COOPER: Annette Gordon-Reed, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

GORDON-REED: Glad to be here. Thank you.

COOPER: Coming up next, with the President pursuing mortgage fraud charges against his political enemies, a new report on an episode from his own past with his own properties, which might ring some bells. Also tonight, breaking news, the departure of another of the President's favorite former personal lawyers as an acting U.S. attorney.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:40:06]

COOPER: Keeping him honest tonight, a reminder from the President's man in charge of ferreting out and accusing the President's enemies of mortgage fraud.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL PULTE, DIRECTOR OF THE FEDERAL HOUSING FINANCE AGENCY: If somebody is claiming two primary residences, that is not appropriate, and we will refer it for criminal investigation."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So that was Bill Pulte, who has made mortgage fraud referrals to the Justice Department in the cases of New York Attorney General Letitia James, Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, Democratic lawmakers Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell. His warnings seem especially apt tonight because of a new piece of reporting from the investigative team at ProPublica.

The headline, "Trump's Own Mortgages Match His Description of Mortgage Fraud, Records Reveal." Quoting now from the article, "In 1993, Trump signed a mortgage for a Bermuda-style home in Palm Beach, Florida, pledging that it would be his principal residence. Just seven weeks later, he got another mortgage for a seven-bedroom marble floor neighboring property, attesting that it, too, would be his principal residence. Instead, the two houses, which are next to his historic Mar-a-Lago estate, were used as investment properties and rented out."

Now, to be clear, then, citizen Trump was never charged with mortgage fraud back then, and the statute, but there's no statute of limitations on double standards, even when there are fed governor out of their jobs and former prosecutors of his, like Letitia James, to go after. So she, you will recall, won a large civil case against the President and his family business for a different flavor of fraud, falsely inflating the value of his properties.

Joining us now, one of the ProPublica reporters on the mortgage story, Justin Elliott. So it's kind of remarkable reporting. So would the mortgages that you and your colleagues reported ever have raised eyebrows prior to the administration accusing the President's enemies of the exact same thing?

JUSTIN ELLIOTT, REPORTER, PROPUBLICA: That's a great question. I mean, my guess is no, because I think this is a story not about Trump actually committing mortgage fraud. It's a story about Trump committing what Trump calls mortgage fraud. You know, I've spent a lot of time in the last couple weeks on the phone with, you know, sober- minded mortgage lawyers, and they say that there's actually often legitimate reasons to have two of these mortgages and that, you know, often there's some kind of sink (ph) and they know about it.

And even when there might actually be something wrong in the paperwork, it's not usually prosecuted. But -- yes.

COOPER: What would be some of the reasons for having?

ELLIOTT: For example, I mean, the most mundane one would be if you bought a house and then moved for another job in a few years and bought a second home and then kept the old home. So now suddenly you have paperwork out there, two mortgages that say you have a principal residence.

The other is just the fact that these tend to be kind of boilerplate forms that banks use, even if they sort of really know what's going on. I mean, we don't actually know the full story of what happened in this Trump case, but what we are very clear about is that Trump himself and Bill Pulte, the guy kind of running point on this administration, have repeatedly said that having two of these mortgages where you say the home is going to be principal residence at the same time is on its own evidence of fraud and should be investigated by the Justice Department.

This is why Trump, in his own words, fired Lisa Cook. And so these two mortgages we found from Palm Beach, I mean, he got these seven weeks apart.

COOPER: And he did not live in either of them.

ELLIOTT: We found no evidence he lived in either of them. We found rental listings from the Palm Beach newspapers in the 90s renting them out. I actually called the real estate agent one of those who's still active. She told me on the record these were rented out from day one.

COOPER: You tracked down the real estate agent from the 1990s?

ELLIOTT: Yes, she's actually still active. She's -- was one of the founding members of Mar-a-Lago actually.

COOPER: Wow. OK.

ELLIOTT: So there's very little doubt about whether Trump lived in these properties, even though these documents that you can get from the Palm Beach clerk said -- yes.

COOPER: So what would have been his reason for purchasing them? To rent them out or what was going on in his finances at the time?

ELLIOTT: It's interesting. At the time, the early 90s, he'd just gone through a series of very high profile bankruptcies. A lot of his casinos and hotels had kind of gone belly up. And he was in the process of turning Mar-a-Lago from a private residence into the club that we all know it as today.

These two homes are right next door to Mar-a-Lago. So his realtor said that he sort of wanted to choose his own neighbors essentially, kind of like expand the perimeter of the property. But nevertheless, fact remains, he has two of these mortgages. They both -- he signed both of them personally.

They both say he's supposed to move in in 60 days. He signed them seven weeks apart. And, you know, Bill Pulte, the guy who's been running point on this, we reached out to him because he said these things should be referred criminally and he didn't respond.

COOPER: And how did the White House respond?

ELLIOTT: You know, the White House did not respond to the aspect of it that this fits Trump's definition of mortgage fraud. They said that this is not fraud because it was the same lender, so the lender had to know. And to be clear, most of the lawyers we talked to thought that most likely it also wasn't fraud. You'd need to do a sort of deeper inquiry to know -- to see all the records.

COOPER: Right.

[20:45:00]

ELLIOTT: But again, you know, this is a standard they've been using to fire a Fed governor. And, you know, Tish James was indicted on something similar --

COOPER: Right.

ELLIOTT: -- to this. So the latest reporting is they're trying to reindict Tish James, talking about going after a couple of Congress -- members of Congress. So it's been, you know, they've been using this as a, you know, quite serious thing.

COOPER: Yes. Fascinating reporting, Justin Elliott. Thanks very much.

ELLIOTT: Thanks a lot.

COOPER: ProPublica.

Other news now, the FBI is offering $15 million for information leading to the arrest of former Olympic snowboarder Ryan Wedding, seen in this Most Wanted poster. He competed in events around the world from 1997 to 2002. After finishing 24th in the 2002 Olympics, he gave up competitive snowboarding.

The Canadian-born fugitive is suspected of running a sprawling multinational drug trafficking ring, with authorities claiming he unleashed an avalanche of death and destruction, their words, in the U.S. and abroad. He's now facing new charges, alleging he ordered the execution of a federal witness who might have testified against him.

The latest from Randi Kaye.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Ryan Wedding is a modern day iteration of Pablo Escobar.

RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That's former Olympic snowboarder Ryan Wedding in the 2002 Winter Olympics, competing in the giant slalom. More than two decades later, he's a wanted man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wedding abandoned an Olympic-level athletic path for depraved violence and cocaine trafficking.

KAYE (voice-over): Wedding is now at the center of a massive international investigation known as Operation Giant Slalom. The goal is to capture Wedding and his alleged associates.

PATEL: He's a modern day iteration of El Chapo Guzman. He is responsible for engineering a narcotrafficking and narcoterrorism program that we have not seen in a long time.

KAYE (voice-over): After his sports career ended, Wedding enrolled at Simon Fraser University and moved to Vancouver, according to Rolling Stone. The magazine reported he took a job as a bouncer at a club and from there entered the drug underworld.

Over the last decade or so, authorities believe Wedding has moved an average of 60 tons of cocaine from Colombia through Mexico for distribution in the United States and Canada. He's also accused of ordering multiple murders around the world. Others allegedly involved in his criminal enterprise helped by laundering money, providing intelligence, assisting in murders and training hitmen.

The Justice Department says more than 35 people have been indicted in this operation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He controls one of the most prolific and violent drug trafficking organizations in this world. He is currently the largest distributor of cocaine in Canada.

KAYE (voice-over): These are pictures of the drugs authorities say they've seized as part of the investigation.

AKIL DAVIS, ASST. DIRECTOR IN CHARGE, FBI'S LA FIELD OFFICE: Make no mistake, Ryan Wedding is extremely dangerous.

KAYE (voice-over): Wedding is also apparently a very rich man, according to officials, who say his operation's annual revenues exceeded $1 billion. These days, investigators believe Wedding is hiding out in Mexico.

DAVIS: He's being protected by the Sinaloa cartel, along with others in the country of Mexico.

KAYE (voice-over): Over the years, Wedding is believed to have used nicknames including El Jefe, Giant and Public Enemy. An indictment just unsealed last month accuses Wedding of ordering the murder of a U.S. federal witness in Medellin, Colombia. The witness was allegedly shot five times in the head at a restaurant earlier this year.

BILL ESSAYLI, FIRST ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CA: Wedding placed a bounty on the victim's head in the erroneous belief that the victim's death would result in the dismissal of criminal charges against him and his international drug trafficking ring.

KAYE: Of the 16 defendants in this case, at least 12 are in custody. Ryan Wedding is still on the run, but some of the others were arrested in Canada, Colombia, Mexico, Michigan, and one suspect right here in Florida.

KAYE (voice-over): Agents raided this mansion in Miami, Florida, where they arrested a music executive in connection with the investigation. If captured and convicted, Wedding would face a maximum sentence of life in federal prison.

Randi Kaye, CNN, Palm Beach County, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Coming up next, another blow to the President's handpicked fleet of federal prosecutors. The departure of Alina Habba, details on that as well as the administration's defense now of Lindsey Halligan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:53:57]

COOPER: We have breaking news from the Justice Department. Alina Habba, the President's former personal attorney, has resigned as New Jersey's acting U.S. attorney. Now, the move comes after an appellate court ruling that found she was serving in the position unlawfully. A similar decision also applies to Lindsey Halligan, another ally of the President who he appointed as interim U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia without Senate approval and with virtually no prosecuting experience.

As a result, a federal judge dismissed her high-profile criminal cases against former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James. Both defendants pleaded not guilty. Now, Halligan has not stepped down.

Recently, some judges in the Eastern District have said in open court that they don't believe her name should be on any criminal case filings. Today, that led Attorney General Pam Bondi and the Assistant Attorney General, Todd Blanche, to post this statement on X that reads, in part, "certain district court and magistrate judges in the Eastern District of Virginia are engaging in an unconscionable campaign of bias and hostility against U.S. Attorney Lindsey Halligan." Later, they add, "This Department of Justice has no tolerance for undemocratic judicial activism."

[20:55:07]

Joining us now is Former Federal Prosecutor and CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig and former U.S. Attorney for the Middle District of Georgia, Michael Moore. So, Michael, does it make any sense to you that Alina Habba is stepping down while Lindsey Halligan is staying and the attorney general is going to bat for her?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, well, I'm glad to be both of you. What makes no sense is that Halligan would stay. I mean, I think probably she and Ms. Habba can share an Uber ride on the way out of town. This is just the law.

And the first Congress back in 1789 passed an act that allowed United States attorneys to be the prosecuting official in each district. And the court has found that Ms. Habba is not qualified to do it under the appointment that she had, and the same is true for Ms. Halligan. So the writing's on the wall for Ms. Halligan in Eastern Virginia, and I think it's just a matter of time before she joins and will have no choice but to step down.

But the fact that the judges are commenting, that they're right to do that. Her name should not be appearing as a charging official on court papers.

COOPER: Yes, I mean, Elie, the judge who ruled her appointment to be unlawful did not order her to step down. So what happens to any cases associated with her tenure, however long or short it may be?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, so with respect to Lindsey Halligan, her office remains very much in limbo, right? As of this moment, Lindsey Halligan is not the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. She's no more of the U.S. attorney than any of the three of us are. And that's why the judges in that district have been speaking out, because they continue to sign her name on the papers when technically she has no role in that office.

Now, if I was back to being a prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia, I would be worried about two things. Number one, who on earth is in charge here? What's the chain of command? Who am I reporting to? And number two, we know that the Comey and Letitia James indictments were dismissed because Lindsay Halligan was inappropriately appointed. Well, does that jeopardize all of our cases? I mean, this office is churning out dozens of cases a day.

Guns, drugs, violent crimes are all of those crimes in jeopardy. And I would say the same concern applies in New Jersey. And now that Alina Habba is out and that uncertainty has been removed, that likely comes as some solace to the AUSAs, the normal prosecutors who are trying to do their job there. At least they know that she's out and at least they know that their indictments won't be further jeopardized by her presence.

COOPER: Michael, I mean, President Trump's own party has a majority in the Senate. So is it clear to you why he would keep appointing people on an interim basis instead of trying to get them confirmed? I mean, he's complained about the so-called blue slip process by which, you know, home senators can object to a U.S. attorney pick for district in their state. But that process has been around for a long time. Presidents of both parties have figured out how to deal with it.

MOORE: Yes, you know, what I think is that probably he can't get the votes in his own party in the Senate to move a candidate who they deem to be perhaps unqualified for this role to be the nominee and to move forward as the United States Attorney through a confirmation hearing. So, you know, he's -- while they do have the majority of the Senate, he still has to have enough Republicans in -- to get these people across the line. And he has to have home state senators who will, in fact, follow the custom of the blue slip. That means that they have basically a veto power over nominees that they don't wish to see in their state.

That's been the practice for many, many years, and there's no reason at this point that it should change. But he just can't muster the votes, I think, in the Senate to get sort of his henchmen through. He's having to put people in who will do his dirty work as opposed to people who the Senate might approve as a qualified candidate or nominee to be the United States Attorney in each individual district.

And so he's battling that. That's why they keep putting people in, trying to get them to bring cases that don't need to be brought, trying to get them to charge people that don't need to be charged, but people that he thinks the justice system needs to go after. And so qualified nominees are just, you know, they're not willing to do that and so they don't find their names up for a Senate vote.

COOPER: It's such a bizarre, weird --

MOORE: Yes, it's nuts.

COOPER: Yes, it's nuts.

Michael Moore, thank you. Elie Honig, as well.

Tomorrow on my podcast, All There Is, my guest is actor, director and writer Ben Stiller. Ben's parents, Jerry Stiller and Anne Meara, were a very famous comedy duo. Ben's mom died in 2015, his dad in 2020. He began going through the things that they left behind and filming that for a documentary called "Stiller and Meara: Nothing is Lost." It's on Apple TV now.

But here's part of our conversation that you'll see in here on the podcast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: I found it to be such a kind of lonely and fraught process --

BEN STILLER, ACTOR, DIRECTOR AND WRITER: It's so heavy.

COOPER: -- of opening up these boxes.

STILLER: Even talking about it.

COOPER: Yes.

STILLER: It's like I start thinking about it. It's just there's so much stuff there that like every single, you know, piece, whether it's a photograph or a cufflink or, you know, these like little like tchotchkes and things that like just ended up in the drawer by my mom's bedside table that, you know, every single one of them would kind of take you down -- could take you down like a whole avenue of memory or --

COOPER: Everything is infused with memory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That's tomorrow on the podcast. Thanks for watching. I'll see you tomorrow.

The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.