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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
New Epstein Photos Show Trump, Bill Clinton, Bill Gates And Others; Interview With Rep. Melanie Stansbury (D-NM); King Charles Says His Cancer Treatments Will Be "Reduced" In 2026; Brian Walshe Murder Case Handed Over To Jury After Closing Arguments; One-On-One With Ben Stiller. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 12, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PATRICIA SCANLON, FOUND RICKI LAKE'S LOST FAMILY PHOTOS: And I posted them on Instagram and I said, does anyone know Ricki Lake? I took a shower. I came out, my phone was blowing up, it was all over Instagram. Ricki was like, I'm here, I'm here --
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Okay, Patty's story is amazing, wait until you hear about why she was at the flea market. It's all amazing, you've got to watch the whole interview on X. You could see it @OutFrontCNN. It's time now for Anderson.
[20:00:34]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, House Democrats released more photos of Jeffrey Epstein with then friend and businessman Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Bill Gates and more. And just now, President Trump has weighed in on them.
Also tonight, Britain's King Charles speaking out with a hopeful holiday message about his cancer treatment. And later, an in-depth, revealing conversation with actor, writer and director Ben Stiller about growing up with his famous mom and dad, losing them and what he discovered about them and himself going through the things they left behind.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. By law, the Justice Department now has just a week left to release everything it has on Jeffrey Epstein. Today, Democrats on the House Oversight Committee made their own contribution to the public record, putting out several dozen photos that were provided by the Jeffrey Epstein estate.
Now, these are just some of the more notable ones the Ranking Committee Democrat Congressman Robert Garcia calls them, "disturbing" and says they, "raise even more questions about Epstein and his relationships with some of the most powerful men in the world."
To be clear, though, while the photos certainly do include photos of powerful men, the President included, the committee provides absolutely no captions or descriptions to put what we're seeing in any kind of context, and none of the men has ever been charged with any wrongdoing related to Epstein.
None of the released images depict any sexual misconduct nor believed to depict underage girls. For instance, there's this photo of then citizen Trump with a woman on a plane, but no clue as to whose plane or which woman, or when and where this was taken. There's also an image of him surrounded by women, all of whose faces have been obscured.
Again, no information about who these women are in the photo, nor when and where this was taken. The President weighed in on the photos tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I haven't seen it, but, I mean, everybody knew this man. He was all over Palm Beach. He has photos with everybody. I mean, almost -- there are hundreds and hundreds of people that have photos with him, so that's no big deal. I know nothing about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: There are photos as well of Epstein and conservative podcaster, Steve Bannon, the Presidents former White House strategist and longtime booster, but again, no context to the photos. And one of them, we see a framed photo on Epstein's desk of a woman. Her face is concealed, apparently sprawled on a couch or the edge of a bed. Other photos show several more well-known Epstein acquaintances. This is film director, Woody Allen with Epstein, apparently a filming location.
There's Epstein with the British billionaire Sir Richard Branson. There's a shot of Bill Gates with Britain's then Prince Andrew, though again, like all these photos, no context.
This photo shows former President Bill Clinton, Jeffrey Epstein, accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell and two other people. We should note that late tonight, republican house oversight committee chairman James Comer threatened contempt proceedings against Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton if they don't appear for depositions on Epstein next week.
Also, among the photos, this one of a satirical Trump condom made by a New York novelty shop. One of those condoms is actually in the Smithsonian, though it's not on display. And more photos of Epstein himself, one in a tub, apparently taking a bubble bath, another at a bookstore. Barnes and Noble apparently holding a book about himself over his face. Finally, there's this unclear where it was taken a GX- 99 massage therapy system.
Joining me now, Democratic Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury, who sits on the committee that released the photos. Congresswoman, why did Democrats on your committee choose to release these photos now? And can you give any context around them? Do you know the context of them?
REP. MELANIE STANSBURY (D-NM): Yes. So, I was briefed on this release this afternoon and as I understand it, on Thursday afternoon, the estate notified the committee that they had additional documents to produce in response to the subpoena that the committee had issued. This would be the fourth tranche of documents that have been released. As you recall, the first was the birthday book. The second was flight schedules and a series of documents, and the third were the e-mails that were these explosive documents a few weeks ago. And so, the latest is a set of photographs that seem to come from an iCloud account that Jeffrey Epstein held, as well as, photos that were attached to e-mails. And as was explained to me by the attorneys from the committee, there was no context provided by the estate.
So, so there are 95,000 photos released by the estate. The attorneys went to New York to meet with the estate, to authenticate that these were indeed from the estate, and they were released to the committee. As the attorneys explained to me, they are only about 10 percent through the entire photographs cache, and that there are many more very, very disturbing photographs, including potentially photographs of sex acts and other disturbing photos in this cache of documents.
And so, I don't know the specifics as to why the committee chose this representative few photographs, but certainly the photographs are quite disturbing.
[20:05:29]
COOPER: And just to be clear, what you just said, you said that there are other photographs that attorneys are still going through which may show actual sex acts. Are those attorneys for your committee or are those from the Epstein estate? It has the Epstein estate actually handed over those images already?
STANSBURY: Yes, they have. So, this is an actual document production pursuant to the Congressional subpoena. So, we subpoenaed these documents from the estate, and they've been producing various documents and various tranches.
So, like I said, this is the fourth production, and the attorneys for the committee, which is a bipartisan set of attorneys. So, both Democratic and Republican attorneys went to authenticate the release of these documents.
COOPER: So, do you know how many more photos your committee has? And do you know when they may be released?
STANSBURY: As was explained to me by the attorneys today, there's about 40 or sorry, excuse me, 95,000 photographs were released by the estate yesterday.
COOPER: So, you have -- I mean, there's only been, I don't know, a dozen or so photographs released now. So, you have almost 94,000 or plus photos still to go through or are going through.
STANSBURY: As I understand it, that is what the staff and attorneys on the committee are going through right now, yes.
COOPER: All right, Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury, I appreciate it, thank you.
STANSBURY: Thank you. COOPER: Joining me now, former federal prosecutor and professor at the Cardozo School of Law, Jessica Roth and Julie K. Brown, award winning investigative reporter for "The Miami Herald." Her work was vital in exposing the extent of Epstein's sex trafficking ring. She's also the author of "Perversion of Justice: The Jeffrey Epstein Story."
Julie, when you hear that there are some 90 -- I mean, it sounds like almost still 95,000 or 94-plus photos -- thousands of photos still to be released. What do you make -- I mean, that's a huge amount.
JULIE K. BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE MIAMI HERALD": Well, they probably encompass quite a number of years. When he was in, you know, doing his sex trafficking in Palm Beach. We know from my interviews with those victims that Maxwell -- Ghislaine Maxwell has accomplished was taking a lot of photographs of those underage girls.
They had reported that they were instructed at several points to pose provocatively in various stages of undress, and part of it sometimes was just to give Jeffrey a present, you know, a birthday present or some kind of a gift with these pictures.
She was with a camera all the time. I was told from some of these victims so it could go back quite a ways, you know, that was 20 years ago. So -- and the police, by the way, when they raided his home back in 2005, his computers were already pulled out. In other words, he was tipped off.
So, they never got their hands on the photographs back then. They never got their hands on his computers, which presumably contains some of these photographs. So, it's a long period of time, probably that they have this information.
COOPER: Jessica, why do you think some of the faces were redacted by the committee and others not?
JESSICA ROTH, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND PROFESSOR AT THE CARDOZO SCHOOL OF LAW: We haven't been provided with a full explanation of that. I mean, that's among the many things that we don't have about the context for these photographs. I think the implication is that these may be redactions to protect the privacy of the survivors. We know that that is something that Congress is appropriately concerned about, and that the Department of Justice under the Epstein Transparency Act is permitted to make redactions for, but there hasn't been a clear statement.
COOPER: And they have not put -- they have not said these faces are redacted because of -- because they are survivors.
ROTH: That's my understanding. That certainly was not put out with the photographs to my understanding thus far. But again, we don't have so much of the context for these photographs. We don't have the dates on which they were taken. We don't have where they were taken or information about what was happening at that moment when the photographs were taken, sort of outside of the frame.
COOPER: Some of these could be, you know, public events that people are just being photographed with to the point that the President made. I mean, I think it's a fair point, many people had photographs of Jeffrey Epstein.
ROTH: We need a clear statement from Congress about why they're making the redactions that they are, and more context to be able to appreciate the significance of these photographs that were released today.
COOPER: Julie, the Department of Justice has a deadline of December 19th to release the documents, as you well know that it has in possession. Do you think they'll meet that deadline and how much redactions -- I mean, I guess there's no way to know what Pam Bondi is going to do and what kind of instructions she's following. But what's your hope or what's your sense?
[20:10:11]
BROWN: Well, I think that they are obviously going to have to release something. It's just a question of how much is going to be redacted or how much they're going to withhold on the grounds that now, as you know, the President announced that they were going to do an investigation into Democrats. So, that's an open criminal investigation, so, they could use that as a reason to not turn over some of this material.
But what I will say is the good part about the whole thing, there are two good pieces of good news on this, and that is that the Oversight Committee, quite frankly, is getting more information than I think is contained in the Justice Department files. I've always felt that the Justice Department really didn't investigate this case thoroughly from the very beginning.
So, we're probably getting more information from them, number one. And number two, we have the victims and more of them are talking and coming out every single day. And they know what happened and they are talking. And, you know, it would behoove the FBI, for example, to start talking to some of these women and to really find out what Epstein was doing and who was involved and who was helping him.
COOPER: And Julie, you're saying the committee is getting more information? Is that because they're getting it from the Epstein estate?
BROWN: Yes, the Epstein estate is turning over. You know, like I said, I know, for example, when the investigation was in Palm Beach, they didn't get these photographs. They didn't get anything from his computer.
So, they're getting more information probably now than before, number one. And number two, we could compare it to what the Justice Department is going to turn over. For example, if the Justice Department says we didn't get anything on his computers, we know for a fact now that there was information on his computers. So, it's a little bit of a check and balance. I think the fact that the Oversight Committee is getting this information.
COOPER: I mean, Jessica, does it surprise you that it's the Oversight Committee, which so far is putting out all this information?
ROTH: Well, it doesn't surprise me in terms of how things have been progressing thus far. And certainly the fact that they released this material today keeps public attention on the Epstein matter and on the deadline of next Friday that the Department of Justice has to make.
COOPER: It certainly raises the stakes for the Department of Justice in terms of what they're going to release.
ROTH: And also, I think it bears noting that the Epstein Act that was passed by Congress requires the Department of Justice to make the material available in a searchable form and also to identify sort of the people who are included in the material, who are sort of politically sensitive, if you will.
And so now, that these photographs have been put out, in a sense, it's an invitation to people, once the Department of Justice makes it's disclosure to search the database sort of by those names, perhaps to see if there's the information that provides some of the context for these photographs and that might be things like phone records or flight logs, things that would or even e-mails, things that would help provide some of the information that helps us understand the significance of what's been released.
COOPER: Yes, Jessica Roth, thanks very much, Julie K. Brown, as always, thank you.
COOPER: Coming up next, Britain's King Charles with a progress report on his cancer fight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING CHARLES, GREAT BRITAIN'S KING: Thanks to early diagnosis, effective intervention and adherence to doctors' orders. My own schedule of cancer treatment can be reduced in the New Year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also, the jury now has alleged wife killer Brian Walshe's fate in their hands. They also have questions, that's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:08]
COOPER: Britain's King Charles has just given a rare and encouraging update on his cancer fight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING CHARLES: Today, I am able to share with you the good news that, thanks to early diagnosis, effective intervention and adherence to doctors' orders, my own schedule of cancer treatment can't be reduced in the New Year.
This milestone is both a personal blessing and a testimony to the remarkable advances that have been made in cancer care in recent years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The 77-year-old monarch was diagnosed with cancer back in February, has not publicly shared what type. A Royal source at "The Time" said only that it was not prostate cancer. When first diagnosed, King Charles briefly stopped his public duties but has since resumed engagements in the U.K. and trips abroad.
In the suburbs of Boston, jury deliberations will resume on Monday in the trial of Brian Walshe. He's accused of murdering his wife Ana, around New Year's Day in 2023, then dismembering her body, which was never found.
Before trial he pleaded guilty to illegally disposing of her body and misleading police, but the jury does not know that. He denies killing his wife and says he panicked when he found her dead body in their bed. Here's some of today's closing arguments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY TIPTON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The Commonwealth must prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that a homicide occurred. That a killing occurred. Nothing proves that beyond a reasonable doubt on the facts and circumstances and the evidence presented to you.
There's evidence that he lied to the police. There's evidence that he searched the internet. There's evidence that he disposed of her body, but there is no proof.
[20:20:10]
In all of the evidence that you have heard that he ever once thought about harming the woman he loved.
ANNE YAS, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Ana Walshe dying a sudden death from natural causes defies common sense. She was in great shape, the defendant told police that Ana was a sturdy Serbian woman. Listen carefully to his recorded interviews because those are his words after her death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining us now, CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson. What do you make of this case? What do you think is going to happen?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, you know, Anderson, I have not seen a case where there's such compelling evidence against a person who is accused. I think the mystery for me is whether it's going to be first degree premeditated murder or second degree. What's the difference? The difference is the first degree murder, life without parole. You have to establish a fear the prosecution, that it was premeditated.
Second degree murder, you just simply have to establish intent. But they have all types of evidence. Google search is about concealing the body. When does a body start to smell? How to dispose of it -- how to get a knife, you know, DNA off a knife?
COOPER: I mean, his lawyers are saying, though there's evidence, not proof.
JACKSON: Well, you know, what ends up happening is that when this crimes oftentimes is not a whole lot of people around to see it. So, you have to parse together and put together what's called circumstantial evidence. If I walk in here and I'm damp, right, and I have an umbrella and I'm shaking it off as the judge instructed the jury, you could conclude it rained outside.
And so, what they're saying that is the prosecution, is that not only was it raining, it was storming. It defies when you heard that clip, logic and common sense, in the event that your wife died of sudden death, a normal person might call the police. A normal person might scream to the neighbors and try to get help. You're not going to cut them up, dispose of their body parts throughout the county, and then after you do that, lie to the police.
COOPER: When you say it like that --
JONES: I mean, you know, the evidence here, the surveillance they have, the cleaning up that he's trying to get, all these cleaning supplies. And so, you know, the jury has the case. I think it's very compelling. And the mystery for me, is it going to be murder, one, premeditated or murder two?
COOPER: I mean, should he have -- are you surprised he did not testify in his own defense?
JACKSON: I am not, even though the defense indicated that, hey, Brian Walshe will tell you that his wife died of sudden death. It's impossible, Anderson, to have testified. He lied so many times. How do you get out from under the various lies? In addition, and you noted it, the jury does not know that he pled guilty to disposing of the wife. The jury does not know that he pled guilty to lying to police.
But if he's on the witness stand, you could say, hey, by the way, you pled guilty to these things, how do you explain that? In addition to the other lies? I just think that he would have come off as not credible, calm, cool, collected and as a psychopath because he was too cool in the interviews, knowing he had killed his wife. So, I think it was a good call.
COOPER: I want to show you some of the testimony about Walshe's internet search history. It's just remarkable.
How long before a body starts to smell? That was one of the items he searched for, allegedly. Dismemberment and the best ways to dispose of a body. Is it better to put crime scene clothes away or wash them? I mean, first of all, why would anyone put their client crime scene clothes away?
JACKSON: Yes, so those are troubling. But I think here's the defense's argument. The defense is arguing that this happened after the fact. Premeditation is about planning. If it's about planning, why didn't he have all his ducks in a row? That's the argument they're presenting. They're saying he was a loving husband, a, you know, a loving father. So was she. They had this great relationship. He was about to buy a Porsche, and he would not be a guy who did something like this.
I just think ultimately, Anderson, the arguments being made defy common sense and logic. His actions were contrary to someone who was innocent or their wife died suddenly.
COOPER: We'll see what the jury decides, Joey Jackson, thanks.
Be sure to tune in this weekend for a closer look at all that's happened in "The Brian Walshe Trial" with Laura Coates. It airs tomorrow night, 8:00 P.M. Eastern on CNN.
Still ahead for us tonight, an extended version of my conversation about grief with actor and director Ben Stiller, including a lot of moments not part of my podcast. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN STILLER, AMERICAN ACTOR AND DIRECTOR: It just goes on and on, where are you going through life. And then one day you're like they're still not here, they're still dead, I'm still here. That's not going to change. You know, the finality of death is a big thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:29:04]
COOPER: I recently sat down with actor, writer and director, Ben Stiller, his mom, Anne Meara, died in 2015, and his dad, Jerry Stiller, in 2020. They were famous comedy duo, and Ben has spent the last several years going through all the things that they left behind. It's a process many of us have or will go through. Ben, however, made a very moving film about it called "Stiller and Meara: Nothing is Lost", which is playing now on Apple T.V.
We had such a wide ranging, revealing and at times funny conversation about it that we want to spend the rest of the program tonight playing it for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Thank you so much for doing this.
STILLER: Yes, it's great.
COOPER: I really appreciate it. You and I have something in common, which is, we both went through our parents' stuff. Did you wait a while to start going through stuff?
STILLER: No, when my dad died --
COOPER: He died in 2020. STILLER: In May of 2020, and like a week or two after that, I started going through stuff. I kind of got this, like, weird, sort of like panic. It was the apartment I grew up in. It was the place we always went back to and it just -- it's home. It felt like home base.
So then to think about it not being in our family, and that was because they were leaving the apartment to my sister. And I knew she wanted to sell it. It was kind of like this knee-jerk reaction of like, I just I'm not going to remember this place fully. I want to just film it.
COOPER: So, you want to document it?
STILLER: Yes, that was the instinct. I really am like a very visual person. So, like just to have those visuals of the place, you know, to be able to look at it and study it and kind of like just remember it or if I was ever thinking of it, that was the main impetus.
[20:30:41]
But then there was also, then of course, all this stuff of theirs.
COOPER: Did you know that your dad had made cassette recordings of conversations? Do you know you had this library?
STILLER: I didn't know we had all of these hundreds of hours of tapes that were a combination of cassette recordings. Everything from my dad having like a little mini cassette recorder to record my kids, you know, as a grandparent, to going back to these reel-to-reel tapes that he would record their improvisation sessions that they would do to write their sketches.
COOPER: I did this by myself going through these boxes, and I found it -- that's the reason I started this podcast, because I found it to be such a kind of lonely and fraught process --
STILLER: It's so heavy.
COOPER: -- of opening up these boxes and --
STILLER: Even talking about it --
COOPER: Yes.
STILLER: -- it's like I start thinking about it. It's just there's so much stuff there that like every single piece, whether it's a photograph, or a cufflink or, you know, these like little like tchotchkes, and things that like just ended up in like the drawer by my mom's bedside table. Every single one of them would kind of take you down -- could take you down like a whole avenue of memory or -- yes.
COOPER: Everything is infused with memory.
STILLER: Yes, that sort of feeling that it's a piece of them, or a connection. COOPER: Also seeing those old Super 8 films that your dad shot, I mean it's so New York circa 1972, '73.
STILLER: Yes, yes.
COOPER: I had the same jacket you wore, like this -- there was snow on the streets, and snow days, and --
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: -- just funky sneakers and --
STILLER: Snow days were exciting.
COOPER: -- hair, big hair, and just messiness. And, you know, we watched Wonderama.
STILLER: I went to Wonderama last year (ph).
COOPER: I -- every kid who would go to Wonderama would get like a glazed bagel with their name on a necklace --
STILLER: Right.
COOPER: -- and they would always wear it to school, and they'd be like, oh yes, no yes, I was at Wonderama.
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: And I never got to go to Wonderama.
STILLER: Oh my --
COOPER: I was like whoa. I can't -- Bob McAllister --
STILLER: Bob McAllister was the host.
COOPER: Yes.
STILLER: Remember Guess Your Best?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: Yes!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's time for the riotous new rating game, Guess Your Best. Play along at home and see how well your best guesses compare with our panel of best guessers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STILLER: That was one of the things I did where they had -- also they had the parents and the kids, and you had to match up the parent and the kids to see who looked like each other.
COOPER: Part of the thing for me in going through these boxes, which is really difficult, and I'll take a box, and I'll think, OK, I'm going to make progress today. I'm going to do a box, and it's a box of Christmas cards from 1974. Like --
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: -- how meaningful can this be? And I'm going through it, and then some of it are people who I knew, and I remember, Walter Matthau, his wife Carol was my mom's best friend.
STILLER: Oh really?
COOPER: Oona Chaplin and Charlie Chaplin's Christmas cards and like --
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: -- parties at the house, and like --
STILLER: Parties at the house favors (ph) --
COOPER: -- famous people who you see on television suddenly in your house. My parents gave -- when Charlie Chaplin came back to America after being in exile to receive a Special Academy Award, he and Oona flew to New York first, and my parents gave him a big welcome party. And there's a photo in the New York Times of me shaking Charlie Chaplin's hand in 19 -- I was six or seven years old.
STILLER: Wow. Did you know --
COOPER: Yes, they gave me a whole like course of study. We watched Charlie Chaplin films, but of course he looked nothing like the little tramp.
STILLER: Right.
COOPER: So I was like, who's this old guy? But I came to know Oona in later years, and Carol Matthau.
STILLER: I remember Walter Matthau called my parents once in our house in Nantucket, and I answered the phone, and he was like, hey, is Jerry there? And I could hear, it was like, I knew it's Walter Matthau. I was like, whoa, that's Walter Matthau.
So I knew -- because I didn't, for like, you know, when "Taking of Pelham 123" came out, and my dad was in that Walter Matthau starred in, that was the coolest movie ever, you know?
COOPER: Yes, yes. But still is.
STILLER: For me, as a kid --
COOPER: Yes.
STILLER: -- that was like, my dad's in a really cool movie.
COOPER: And you were in a backseat in a scene with Walter Matthau. STILLER: Yes, yes, yes. And so when he -- but then when he, you know, called up, I was like, oh, that's really cool. But like, did you even have a sense that Charlie Chaplin, even besides them telling you about -- did it mean anything to you?
COOPER: As a kid, not so much.
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: I mean, it seemed normal.
STILLER: I think both of our childhoods, we were around adults a lot who were partying and living their lives in that way that parents in the 70s did, which was for us as kids, it's like we had to figure it out --
COOPER: Yes.
STILLER: -- on our own.
[20:35:09]
COOPER: Yes, my mom took me to Studio 54 when I was 11, twice.
STILLER: So, you know, I went to Studio 54 when I was 13.
COOPER: No.
STILLER: This is so weird.
COOPER: Well, I went first time when my mom was doing these jeans and they had a party there and Grace Jones performed. Second time, my mom was dating Sidney Lumet, who she'd been married to previously, famous director. And it was the premiere for the --
STILLER: Wait, your mom dated Sidney Lumet?
COOPER: Well, my mom was married to Sidney Lumet.
STILLER: Really?
COOPER: Yes, that was her third husband.
STILLER: Oh my god.
COOPER: And then after my dad died in 1978, they started dating. And I desperately wanted her to marry Sidney because I wanted a responsible adult in the house. And -- but she didn't want to get married again. But he was a wonderful guy.
But we went to the premiere of "The Wiz" and the after parties at Studio 54. And I didn't listen to music. I didn't know Michael Jackson was other than the guy in "The Wiz." And I'm at Studio 54 and I'm watching him dance and -- on the dance floor.
And I remember turning somebody and I was very concerned as a kid about how people would make a living. I was concerned about how would I would make a living and what -- how people made a living. So I was constantly asking people, how -- like, how -- what do you do? How do you -- how much do you earn? How much do police officers earn?
But I remember looking at Michael Jackson, I turned to the person next to me, I said, he's really good at that. He should pursue that. The person was like --
STILLER: Good --
COOPER: -- yes, yes.
STILLER: Yes. Yes, no, I mean, I went to Studio 54 with my sister --
COOPER: Wow.
STILLER: -- without my parents knowing. When I was 13, my sister, we still don't understand how she got let in, but somehow Marc, the bouncer, Marc Benecke, who was like the famous bouncer, let my sister in. And Amy's always wondering, like, did he know our parents, maybe, or something.
COOPER: Right, right.
STILLER: But then she said, we're going to get you in one night. And so they put me in this yellow and green Fiorucci, Fiorucci another 80s --
COOPER: Oh yes. Yes, of course.
STILLER: -- or in the late 70s, early 80s, polka dot shirt, an army jacket and Mickey Mouse sunglasses. And my hair was like down to here. And she said, just like, look really serious. And like, we're going to pull you to the front. And they let us in.
COOPER: Wow. You were looking like early Zoolander.
STILLER: I mean, it was so far from that. It was -- that it was like letting children into Studio 54, basically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We'll have more of my conversation with Ben Stiller coming up right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:41:59]
COOPER: More now with my extended conversation with actor, writer, and director Ben Stiller. In the making of his documentary about his parents called "Stiller and Meara: Nothing is Lost," Ben realized that despite his best efforts, he, like many of us, ended up repeating some of the patterns and problems with his own kids that his parents had repeated with him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I'm obsessed with the patterns of history that run through families and how we find ourselves repeating the patterns of those who come before us. You grew up with these parents who were working constantly, who needed to work to support the family. They were on the road a lot.
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: And then you had kids and you ended up repeating the pattern of your parents with your kids.
STILLER: I did. Yes. And I think about how that happened because always being aware of thinking, oh, I don't want to make mistakes that my parents made or things they did as parents that weren't, you know, the best. But I think for me, what happened is like my relationship with my work became very important to me and probably like out of balance with really attending to all the relationships in my life.
COOPER: I will understand the perspective you have about your work. It is the same I have. And it is very difficult for anybody around me. I get laser focused and I'm a perfectionist like it's so obvious the way it has to be and nothing else is acceptable.
STILLER: Right.
COOPER: And no one else understands this. I'm just trying to make it perfect. That's all I want.
STILLER: Yes. These are the people in your life who love you.
COOPER: Yes, these are the people, you know -- exactly.
STILLER: And then once the work goes away and when you're old --
COOPER: Yes.
STILLER: -- and on your deathbed --
COOPER: Yes.
STILLER: -- these are the people you hope are around.
COOPER: Yes, and they're not going to be around. I want to be present in the lives of my kids.
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: And yet I watched this and I realize it's not enough to think that and to realize that it's --
STILLER: Yes, yes, you have to do it.
COOPER: -- you actually have to work on it every single day and take action on it. There's a conversation you have in the film with your son. Let's play that. STILLER: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, after a tough day, you know, or something was going wrong, you can get very much in your own head. You know what I mean? And I think once you kind of go into that place, hard to get you out of it.
STILLER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that would kind of put a damper on the, you know, fun part about being on vacation. You know what I mean? You have all these hats --
STILLER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- that you're trying to balance, you know --
STILLER: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- being a director, an actor, you know, a producer, a writer, but also just like a father, right? And sometimes I felt that that would come, you know, last to these other things.
STILLER: The irony is I thought I was doing so much better than my parents. I thought I was pulling it off. I was flying home on the weekends and having special places for the kids to play when they come visit the set. But in reality, and just hearing them talk about it for them, it was the same thing I was going through as a kid. And I just couldn't see that at all at the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:02]
COOPER: I find that devastating.
STILLER: Yes, it's not -- you might listen to it. I'm like, I was not expecting to say last. What do you say? You know, I thought he's going to say, like, maybe like not at the top of what he said last. It was like -- but like, look, it's valid because that's his experience.
We all learn as you have kids and they get older that kids take in. Everything we took in as kids, they're taking in.
COOPER: I was watching you in that scene in the film.
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: And there was part of me as -- I made a documentary about my mom for HBO years before she died. And anybody who is on camera or who's directs or, you know, is producing a film is constantly -- at least for me, I'm constantly thinking about there's both being in the moment, but there's also knowing where the cameras are and thinking when your son is saying that to you, you have a look on your face. Part of the look to me looked like, holy (INAUDIBLE), this is this awful. And then I wondered, is there a -- given your perfectionism, is there a filmmaker part of your brain which is saying, oh, this is good for -- this will be in scene in the film?
STILLER: Oh yes, 100 percent.
COOPER: Really?
STILLER: Yes. I immediately thought, oh, that's good for the movie. That's not great for life. But also -- and then I'm thinking, what's my funny retort that I couldn't come up with. And I'm like, all right, well, maybe I shouldn't have a funny retort here and just, I should just listen to him and take that in.
But I like, that was the first thing I was thinking is like, how can I come up with something funny to say this. And even in editing the movie, I was like, oh, I wish I had like something funny to say there. And then it was like, no, maybe it's good just to like, I don't have a response.
COOPER: Be human.
STILLER: Yes, exactly. Right.
COOPER: But that perfectionism is something your dad had as well.
STILLER: 100 percent, yes. Almost all the time. I feel like he was in his head, which again, I really identify with.
COOPER: You were shooting "Night at the Museum," one of the sequels to "Night at the Museum."
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: You were going --
STILLER: I was telling my son I was going to go shoot "Night at the Museum 2 or 3." And I knew I was going to have to go on location to do it in Vancouver. And I was basically trying to sell him on, hey, I'm going to go do this thing for, you know, three months.
And I knew he was not happy about me leaving for that long. I said, but you love "Night at the Museum." It's so weird (ph). Wait until you get to the movie theater and see that movie. You'll be glad that I was gone but --
COOPER: But even you -- I mean, you knew --
STILLER: It was worth it.
COOPER: You knew when you said that.
STILLER: Oh, coming out of my mouth. It was so icky and awful.
COOPER: It's incredible. STILLER: Yes. And, you know, now it's funny, but in the moment it's pretty tough because, you know, what are you going to do? It's like there -- then you have this like kind of moral dilemma, like, should I just not do this?
When you have a, like a eight-year-old kid looking at you going like, you know, they're bummed that you're -- it's like, you have to have a heart of stone to not actually feel something. Let alone the guilt. And I think, by the way, I think that also affected my relationship with Christine and all of it because, you know, as a mom, she was there --
COOPER: Right.
STILLER: -- taking care --
COOPER: You're the one who's jutting off to --
STILLER: And she's an actor who, you know, really made a choice when we got married, that she didn't want to go and pursue work as much because she wanted to be there for the kids. It affected, you know, it just affected everything in that way. But that's, you know, that's something that people deal with.
COOPER: I mean, do you, do you feel like you grieved your parents?
STILLER: I'd -- I've still feel like I'm going through that. I have these like moments of, it's -- you know, I think making the movie for me was a way to address connecting with my grief because I have such a barrier towards really opening up to that, I think. And maybe similar to you in that way where like, if you made a documentary about your mom, you process in making this podcast, like you can take what you do and use it as a way to help yourself work through stuff.
And I actually think that that's a lot of what art is and creativity is. It shouldn't be indulgent self-therapy or whatever that nobody wants to see. And, by the way, that was a concern I had too in making the movie. But I do think that being able to do this and have a way to delve into it through, quote unquote, "work" or, you know, creative process was a way in for me to like start to connect with them.
And now what I think it's opened up is I have these moments by myself where I try to connect with my parents a little bit.
COOPER: Do you feel them?
STILLER: I have --
[20:50:01]
COOPER: Do you feel anything?
STILLER: No, that's the issue.
COOPER: No, but -- I'm not joking. But, look, I'm saying this to somebody -- STILLER: Sometimes.
COOPER: -- I knew --
STILLER: Sometime I do, but a lot of times --
COOPER: I know it when I see it, because I've spent my life not feeling it.
STILLER: Yes. Well, if you're like me, it's like somebody just going through life. You have to kind of like put up the deflector shields, right?
COOPER: Yes. Yes. No, I --
STILLER: Yes. And but the problem is you get used to having them up and then when you let them down. But, yes, I've had these weird moments. I was at West Point scouting for a movie, you know, West Point up the Hudson, and I knew my mom had gone to boarding school up there at a place called Ladycliff Academy that was in Highland Falls, New York.
And I had never been able to find it. And I was in the West Point visitor center. And I asked somebody, I said, hey, there's a place called Ladycliff Academies. And he said, you're standing in it. This was Ladycliff Academy. West Point bought it a few years ago as part of their --
COOPER: Wow.
STILLER: -- you know, the thing. And then this woman recognized me there and she came up to me and she was so happy to see me. She gave me this big hug, was just so excited. And I was in that place in that moment. And I felt like I was somehow connecting with my mother in that moment.
The irony also is like being an actor, you know, you have to somehow try to be in touch with stuff like that too.
COOPER: Yes
STILLER: And so like I've had, you know --
COOPER: Well, there's that scene in the end of "The Royal Tenenbaums" where, you know, you're like, dad, I had --
STILLER: Yes. it's been a tough year.
COOPER: Benn a tough year --
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: -- which is very --
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: -- tender.
STILLER: Yes, yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've had a rough year, dad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you have (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STILLER: How'd you do that?
COOPER: I stressed about it. I remember stressing about it because Wes was doing it in one of his, you know, brilliant Wes Anderson shots. That was like a one-er, which is like just one shot for the whole scene. So there are all these different parts of the scene before finally the camera pans over all the different characters and finally gets to us.
And I was so nervous about trying to do that scene well and have the emotion that I asked him. I said like, when we do the scene, I know you're doing this like one shot, but are you going to do coverage? Like, we're just like a special shot, a closeup at the end.
COOPER: Right.
STILLER: Just to -- in case it's not good enough in the -- he said, yes, yes, yes, I'll do that. Don't worry. Don't worry. And he did like 15 takes of the long shot. And then he's like, cut, we got it. And then he moved on. And of course he's not going to do coverage because you know, he's Wes Anderson and he shouldn't.
And he's like, that's it. And I remember thinking, oh God, I hope I, you know, got that OK. But it was also -- you know, that's one of those things where, you know, all that stuff is inside of you. And then you kind of -- I don't know. I always admire actors who are able, you know, to allow that emotion to come up.
But I do find it's tougher for me and it's probably because I've got the, you know, the defense --
COOPER: Yes, yes.
STILLER: -- deflector shields up in life more. And that's kind of stuff that I do try to work at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Coming up, Ben Stiller talks about how surviving cancer changed his life. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:45] COOPER: I ended my conversation with Ben Stiller talking about how losing his parents and surviving cancer has affected how he's chosen to live his life moving forward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Is losing your parents different than you imagined it to be?
STILLER: I mean, I guess I always -- yes, I always wonder like what that would be like. I think it just goes on and on, right? It just goes on and on where you're going through life. And then one day you're like, ah, they're still not here. We're not still -- they're still dead. I'm still here.
That's not going to change. You know, the finality of death is a big thing. I was lucky too, because, you know, I'm --
COOPER: They look --
STILLER: -- no spring chicken myself. So like --
COOPER: Yes. In fact, you had them for --
STILLER: I had them for a long, long time.
COOPER: Yes, yes.
STILLER: And still though, I feel like my mom had more years than her.
COOPER: You had --
STILLER: My dad was definitely at the point, you know, he was almost 93 and --
COOPER: You had advanced prostate cancer --
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: -- that you found out about and had to have surgery for.
STILLER: Yes.
COOPER: Did that make you think about your mortality?
STILLER: Oh my God, yes. When you get a diagnosis like that, everything stops, you know? All your plans, all your thoughts, my job, my -- it's like, all of it's like, wait a minute, this is something that could change everything. It was scary. Definitely scary.
Nothing like the feeling of relief when you get the call from the doctor, hey, the blood test came back. Your PSA is zero, you're cancer-free and you want to hold onto that feeling. For me, it's a, I think it's 11 years now. That feeling of gratitude. And I still do have that.
But, of course, like it goes up and down and you get wrapped up in things. But what I find even more kind of disturbing though, is like I hear about people my age. I was -- Bill Burr has a funny routine about people just dropping dead --
COOPER: YES.
STILLER: -- because the age, like guys like 50s, 60s would just drop dead. That's very disconcerting because again, it's like we have all these plans and ideas and things we're doing, but it all could just be like, no, it's over. And honestly, like if it was over tomorrow, it wouldn't be like, oh yes, he died kind of young, but, you know, he had a life. Right?
COOPER: Ben Stiller, thank you so much.
COOPER: Thanks, man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You can see more of my conversation with Ben Stiller on a special Sunday night edition of All There Is at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
That's all for us. Have a great weekend. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now. See you Monday.
