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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
White House Reeling Over Trump Chief Of Staff's Bombshell Interview; New Enhanced Video Of Person Of Interest In Brown University Shooting; Nick Reiner Charged With Murder In Parents' Deaths; Hegseth: No Public Release Of Full Video Of Double-Tap Boat Strike; WH Reeling Over Trump Chief Of Staff's Bombshell Interview; Kelsey Grammer On Loss And Love. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 16, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Well, in the context of what we hear so much of this day these days on the economy, I'll take all of that as a glass very much half full, if you can be very much half. Thank you so much, Austan Goolsbee, I appreciate your time.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, PRESIDENT, FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF CHICAGO: Yes, great to see you again, Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Thanks so much to Austan. Thanks so much, of course, as always, to all of you to all of you for being with us. It's time now for AC360 with Anderson Cooper, it starts now.
[20:00:28]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, what White House Chief-of- Staff Susie Wiles told "Vanity Fair" by the President having an "alcoholic's personality." The Vice President embracing conspiracy theories Elon Musk being an "odd duck" and more. That in my exclusive conversation with the reporter, she spilled it all to again and again and again.
Also tonight, the manhunt continues for the Brown University killer as authorities release more video of this man from shortly before the mass shooting and police say he was casing the area.
And later, it is official Rob and Michelle Reiner's son Nick is being charged with first degree murder in their killings, and officials reveal new details in the tragedy.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with what The White House chief-of-staff saw and what she's been saying about it. She saw plenty, which is not surprising. And she has said quite a lot, which is because until now, Susie Wiles was best known for saying as little as possible and staying out of the spotlight.
Today, however, we woke up to the news that for almost a year now, she had been talking regularly to author Chris Whipple, who joins us shortly. He incorporated their conversations into a two-part profile in "Vanity Fair," which is giving official Washington plenty to talk about tonight in no small part, because what Wiles said typically goes unsaid until a person has left their job, which Susie wiles definitely has not. She is still at The White House, still serving the President, and today he seemed to indicate he's fine with that.
As you'll see, he defended her. He even appeared to confirm her assessment of his personality, which many might find less than flattering and he attacked the reporting, so did his press secretary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is unfortunately, another example of disingenuous reporting, where you have a reporter who took the chief-of-staff's words wildly out of context, did not include the context those conversations were had within. And then further, I think the most egregious part of this article was the bias of omission that was clearly present and we see a lot of this when dealing with the media every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, again, Chris Whipple is with us tonight, and we'll certainly ask him to address those complaints. First, though, some of what Susie Wiles said, quoting from the piece. "Wiles said Trump has, 'an alcoholics personality'. He operates within a view that there's nothing he can't' do, nothing. zero, nothing."
According to Whipple, she went on to say that as the child of an alcoholic, in her case, the late sportscaster Pat Summerall, she's a, quote, "expert in big personalities. And as we mentioned, the President defended her today, telling "The New York Post", "She's fantastic" and saying, "I don't drink alcohol, so everybody knows that. But I've often said that if I did, I'd have a very good chance of being an alcoholic. I've said that many times about myself, I do. It's a very possessive personality."
He also said that he had not read the article, but said he heard the facts were wrong and the interview, "purposely misguided." Wiles also spoke at length about Elon Musk and his time at the White House as a kind of budget cutter at large. Quoting again from Chris Whipple, "Wiles described Musk as something akin to a jacked up Nosferatu."
"The challenge with Elon is keeping up with him, she told me. He's an avowed ketamine user and he sleeps in a sleeping bag in the EOB, the Executive Office Building in the daytime, and he's an odd, odd duck, as I think geniuses are."
Wiles later spoke about this with "The New York Times," saying she did not have any actual knowledge of Musk's ketamine use beyond his own statements. She also took issue with Musk gutting of USAID, saying, "No rational person could think the USAID process was a good one. Nobody."
As for Vice-President Vance, she said his conversion from never- Trumper to his current beliefs had been, "sort of political." And in reference to the Epstein files, uproar noted that Vance has "been a conspiracy theorist for a decade." The Vice President weighed in on that today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) J.D. VANCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I haven't looked at the article. I, of course, have heard about it. But conspiracy theorists, sometimes I am a conspiracy theorist, but I only believe in the conspiracy theories that are true.
(CHEERING APPLAUSE)
VANCE: And by the way, Susie and I have joked in private and in public about that for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, speaking of the Epstein files, here's what Whipple writes about Attorney General Pam Bondi. This part begins quoting while speaking about Bondi, "I think she completely whiffed on appreciating that that was the very targeted group that cared about this," Wiles said of Bondi.
First, she gave them binders full of nothingness, talking about influencers online. And then she said that the witness list or the client list was on her desk. There is no client list and it sure as hell wasn't on her desk. The Attorney General reacted online. She neither confirmed nor denied that Weil said that about her, causing Wiles -- calling Wiles her friend and saying, "Any attempt to divide this administration will fail."
Wiles also told Chris Whipple that the President was wrong when he claimed that former President Clinton visited Epstein's private island, saying, "There is no evidence" that those visits happened.
As for the current President, Whipple writes, "Wiles told me she'd read what she calls the Epstein file and she said Trump is in the file and we know he's in the file and he's in the file and he's not in the file doing anything awful."
[20:05:34]
Wiles continue, saying, they worry no sort of young, single, whatever. I know it's a passe word, but sort of young single playboys together. Wiles also gives her take on the President's motivation for targeting Venezuelan small boats, three more in the last 24 hours. She says, "He wants to keep on blowing boats up until Maduro cries, Uncle. And people way smarter than me on that say that he will."
Wiles also tells Whipple she thought she had what she called a loose agreement with the President to end his campaign of retribution against his enemies after 90 days, which, did not stick, and she addressed her boss' recent habit of snapping at female reporters like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Yes, go ahead, go ahead.
REPORTER: Sir, why not --
TRUMP: Quiet, quiet, piggy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Susie Wiles' explanation, "He's a counterpuncher and increasingly in our society, the punchers are women."
Joining me now is Chris Whipple, and his first broadcast interview since his two-part "Vanity Fair" piece landed. He's also the author of "The New York Times" bestseller "The Gatekeepers: How The White House Chiefs of Staff Define Every Presidency." Chris, thanks for being with us.
CHRIS WHIPPLE, "VANITY FAIR" WRITER: Yes, great to be here.
COOPER: A lot to talk about, first of all, of all the things Susie Wiles told you, what surprised you the most?
WHIPPLE: You know, Anderson, this was one of those cases as a reporter in your career, when lightning strikes and it was astonishing to me the extent to which she was unguarded and freewheeling on the record all the time. I've covered, as you know, I wrote a book about the Biden White House where everybody was on deep background requiring, "approval."
Quite the opposite in this case. Susie Wiles in 11 interviews over 11 months --
COOPER: That's how many there were 11 interviews over 11 months.
WHIPPLE: Eleven in-depth interviews in which she was on the record. Everything in the article is was on the record.
COOPER: Were you recording every interview?
WHIPPLE: I recorded every interview.
COOPER: Even ones that were on the phone that she was, there was one, where she was doing laundry, apparently.
WHIPPLE: Everything is on tape.
COOPER: Did she know this was for "Vanity Fair"? Did she think this was for a long-term book that you were doing?
WHIPPLE: She knew I was working on a book at the outset when I told her that "Vanity Fair" had agreed to do a piece to publish a piece, she was all in and enthusiastic about it.
COOPER: Why? Because she is so legendarily averse to being out front.
WHIPPLE: That's why I say that this was lightning striking. It's amazing to me. First of all, I think that she is the most fascinating person in American politics, not only because she ran a brilliant campaign and brought Trump back from the dead to win the 2024 election. She's the first female White House chief-of-staff. But in addition, she's kind of the Greta Garbo of White House chiefs. She's never on camera, rarely on camera, hardly ever gives interviews. And yet she did.
I think it's because, all I can tell you is what she told me. She felt that Trump 1.0 had been unfairly covered, that Trump was vilified.
COOPER: During the first administration.
WHIPPLE: During the first administration, she wanted a fair hearing, and I think she thought she would get one.
COOPER: And one of the things the White House is saying, things were taken out of context, wildly out of context was the quote of Leavitt. Are things taken out of context because some of the quotes are they're tight. I mean, they're just, it's like, who said this?
WHIPPLE: Everything is was scrupulously in context. And I've got to tell you, the giveaway, when you're a journalist and you hear you're the target, the subject saying talking about things like context and omissions, you know, you're on the right track because there isn't a single fact or a single assertion that they've challenged in the piece.
It really reminds me of the Watergate days when Ben Bradlee said, talked about non-denial denials.
COOPER: Right
WHIPPLE: This is the ultimate non-denial --
COOPER: They're not really attacking. Well, I never, absolutely never said that. Although Susie Wiles did at one point say that she denied saying that, that Elon Musk is an avowed ketamine user. You then apparently, according to the reporter, you played a tape for "The New York Times" which confirmed that.
WHIPPLE: It's on tape, as is every assertion that Susie made. And as you know, I interviewed the inner circle as well. I talked to J.D. Vance, I talked to Marco Rubio, Stephen Miller and others. All of it taped, all of it on the record. And the giveaway is that they haven't been able to challenge a single fact.
COOPER: Are you surprised that the President has not, apparently it seems, at least publicly not angry with Wiles?
WHIPPLE: Well, here's the other thing. As you say, it's not very often that you get you get an endorsement of your quotation from the President. You know, he --
COOPER: The alcoholic personality.
WHIPPLE: Yes, he evidently wears that as a badge of honor.
COOPER: His brother, I've done interviews with him long ago. He talked about his brother Fred, who was alcoholic. [20:10:25]
WHIPPLE: So, yes, here's the fascinating thing and that is, not only is there this amazing 11-month journey that I document of Susie Wiles through this whole period, but it really goes all the way back to her childhood and her famous father, Pat Summerall, who was an alcoholic, she organized interventions with her mother to get treatment for him.
He was sober for 21 years, but she learned how to deal with difficult men.
COOPER: It is a fascinating data point that, I mean, I certainly didn't know about her, that, you know, adult children of, you know, people who grew up with alcoholics are -- I mean, she's in sort of the perfect job. I mean, it sort of makes sense that that what she learned she learned as a little girl and throughout her life dealing with him.
WHIPPLE: And Trump is owning it. Trump is wearing it, in effect, as a kind of badge of honor. He's saying what she meant when she said that he has an alcoholic personality, not that he's a drinker. We know that he's not, but that he has this grandiose personality. He believes that there is nothing, as she put it, nothing that he doesn't think he can do.
COOPER: She is saying, Susie Wiles pushed back on the story on social media, saying, "Significant context was disregarded. As I said, Karoline Leavitt said it was bias of omission." There's not huge chunks of Susie Wiles on the record saying these, saying stuff it. You know, tight quotes. Is there a world in which you would release the audio?
WHIPPLE: Well, we're not going to release the audio. I mean, "Vanity Fair" has decided that, no, they're not going to release the audio, at least not now.
The context again is, just the most obvious example of a non-denial denial. Everything is absolutely in context. And as you know, there are long exchanges in the piece where we have at it back and forth. We debated all kinds of things, including the legality of strikes on, on the boats in the Caribbean.
And, and, you know, I think that there's certainly, you know, I think that 99,500 words.
COOPER: How much -- how many hours of tape do you have?
WHIPPLE: You know, it's at least 11 hours. I would say each interview was about an hour in length.
COOPER: And is there more to more to come? I mean, its two parts, do you have -- is there a third part in there?
WHIPPLE: There's not a third part in the works, no.
COOPER: Chris Whipple, I appreciate your time tonight.
WHIPPLE: Great. Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up next, the search for the Brown University mass shooter, new video and a request from authorities who need your help identifying this person of interest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COL. OSCAR PEREZ, PROVIDENCE, RHODE ISLAND POLICE CHIEF: We want to focus on the body movements. The way the person moved their arms, the body posture, the way they carried their weight. I think those are important movement patterns that may help you identify this individual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And later, what we're learning about the events leading up to the murder of rob and Michele Reiner and how their son, Nick, who's now charged with first degree murder, was arrested.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:36]
COOPER: Late today, the Providence, Rhode Island Police Department released new enhanced video of the person of interest they are seeking connection with Saturday's mass shooting at Brown University. Two students and injured nine others were wounded in the attack. Police say the video shows the person casing the area, in their words, on the East Side of Providence, in the vicinity of Brown's campus on Saturday afternoon before the shooting took place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PEREZ: We're asking the public to ensure that they can see them. They can see here that, you want to focus on the body movements, the way the person moves their arms, the body posture, the way they carry their weight. I think those are important movement patterns that may help you identify this individual, which is extremely important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining us now is CNN's chief law enforcement intelligence analyst, John Miller. I want to put up that video again.
John, this newly enhanced video person of interest, I mean, they're talking about, you know, movement patterns of slight maybe hitch in the stride that Andrew McCabe was talking about last night. What new stands out to you in the enhanced video?
JOHN MILLER, CNN, CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, first of all, they did a nice job on the video, which is they show you the video in context, but they zoom in and do the close up so you get a better look at the person and you get them both on the same screen. But what they're showing you is chronologically how he moved through the neighborhood. And it's not just the video, which is to try to get people to call and say, I passed this guy in the street. I think I saw him in a store. I think I work with him.
But they're also telling us something, which is they have him moving around in that area.
COOPER: Like this one seems particularly, I mean, you see the color of his clothing much better also in this video as well.
MILLER: That's right, but you also see his behavior, which is in some sections he's walking very slowly like this. In other sections he takes off running. So, you have to ask yourself, okay, so what's going on there? Is he planning getaway routes? Is he timing things or does he believe he's being followed and he's trying to change his movements to see, does the same person come up ahead or behind me?
These are things we can only speculate about. But the remarkable thing is how long he was there. This is like six hours. He's at 10:30 in the morning until the time of the shooting at 4:00.
COOPER: But why would he be casing this area on the day of?
MILLER: On the day of, well, they asked people to go back in their RING cameras and their doorbell cameras to say, go back a couple of days, more days, because typically casing is done in advance and we may see him casing not all covered up, but the answer to your question is I don't know.
COOPER: It's also, you know, the FBI released a timeline of his movement hours before, and it's a little unless you're familiar with the neighborhood, it's a little confusing. What stands out to you?
[20:20:17]
MILLER: Just the route he took to get from point A to point B was unnecessary. It's almost as if he was looking for something and the way he moved.
COOPER: And 70 -- it's been, I think, 72 hours, more than 72 hours since the shooting. Obviously, time is not a friend, is it?
MILLER: No, I mean, if he's moving, that's the kind of time that allows him to put distance between them. But it's also the nature of the beast in these investigations, you know, they can fold up in 24 hours or they can go much longer.
But what they're doing today, they've got hundreds of leads, probably around 700. They do triage, right. What are the most viable leads goes to the top of the pile. Who are people we can go out and see? Is there someone we need to put under surveillance? But other things they're doing, they are taking DNA swabs from certain people they're interviewing.
Now, what does that mean? That means they think they recovered DNA from the shooter somewhere. Because they wouldn't be taking them if they didn't have something to compare it to. And the other thing it means is they've already run it through CODIS, so they know he's not in the criminal database. So, there's a lot of activity going on. COOPER: John Miller, thanks very much.
Shortly before air, I spoke to Samir Umurzokov, her brother Mukhammad Aziz Umurzokov was one of the two Brown University students killed in this shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: What was your brother like?
SAMIR UMURZOKOV, BROTHER OF MUKHAMMAD AZIZ UMURZOKOV: He was the most kind hearted, funny, he was the most -- he was the smartest person I've ever met. You know, he always helped someone before he helped himself, you know, without any hesitation. He never, you know, lost sight of who he was as a person.
And, you know, so many people have reached out to me giving me little stories here and there of how he was. And it's just sort of reinforced, you know, what he was like to our family. It was just so nice hearing that from other people's perspectives, too.
COOPER: Mukhammad Aziz, he was in his first year at Brown. He was studying to be a doctor. Is it true he decided he wanted to go into medicine when he was just seven years old?
UMURZOKOV: Yes, it's true, because when he was seven, he got diagnosed with an illness or I guess, condition called Chiari malformation and after, you know, weeks and weeks of doctors' visits and of examinations of him, the doctor, you know, put him through like an eight-hour surgery, very risky brain surgery and then post interview because, you know, brain surgeries can, you know, have horrible consequences for someone.
Dr. Jeffrey Wisoff is a professor now at NYU, asked him and he said, Mr. Muhammad, what do you want to be when you grow up? And he said, I want to be a neurosurgeon just like you, so I can help kids like me.
COOPER: I know your family has set up a GoFundMe page to help pay for your brother's funeral, and we're putting that web address on the bottom of the screen. I know a lot of people who knew your brother, they've been using the page to share stories about him. They've talked about his kindness and his intelligence. It must -- How does it feel to know that he touched so many people's lives?
UMURZOKOV: It's just, you know, we knew how he was in our life and we knew how he was in the Midlothian High School Community and how many people he helped there. And it was just crazy seeing how his friends from Brown just reached out so quickly. Like, I would probably say 80 or 90 people reached out just sending me photos and sending me funny stories about him. And it's just sort of reinforces his character in my head that, you know, like he touched so many people in such a little amount of time, so --
COOPER: Is there anything else you want people to know about your brother? UMURZOKOV: I just want people to know that he's, you know, he's a real person. He had real ambitious goals and aspirations like anyone else would, and he, you know, never took anything for granted, ever. And I just sort of like me being here, I want people to know that him and the other victim are not just numbers. They're not just statistics, they're real people and real families are genuinely hurting like crazy because of their loss. And that's mainly the reason why I'm here, just to show people what he was like. Because my parents just want people to know, hear their son's name, see their son's picture instead of, you know, seeing two dead, nine injured, you know.
COOPER: Well, Samir, thank you so much for telling us about your brother and I'm so sorry for your loss and your family's loss.
UMURZOKOV: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, much more ahead tonight. Including the charges against Nick Reiner in the killing of his parents. Also, the President's night online, ratcheting up the pressure on Venezuela after three more boat strikes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:29:19]
COOPER: Tonight, the son of Rob Reiner and producer Michele Singer- Reiner has been charged with two counts of first degree murder in their deaths. The couple was found killed in their Brentwood, California home on Sunday.
Their son, Nick, was arrested a short time later. The charges carry a maximum sentence of life in prison without possibility of parole or the death penalty. New images released tonight show the moment the Nick Reiner was handcuffed and arrested, his face is blurred.
According to his attorney, Reiner did not appear in court earlier today because he was not medically cleared to be transported.
Former First Lady Michelle Obama told Jimmy Kimmel that the couple had planned to see Rob And Michele Reiner on the night they were killed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Let me just say this unlike some people, Rob and Michele Reiner are some of the most decent, courageous people you ever want to know.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
M. OBAMA: They are not deranged or crazed. What they have always been are passionate people in a time when there's not a lot of courage going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Those remarks came after President Trump, of course, referred to Rob Reiner as a deranged person who was, quote, "very bad for our country."
[20:30:29]
Before becoming the main suspect in his parents' murder, Nick Reiner was outspoken about his substance abuse and struggles with addiction. In a series of podcasts and interviews promoting his semi- autobiographical film that he made with his father called "Being Charlie," he spoke about going to rehab and bouts of homelessness.
CNN's Randi Kaye takes a closer look at Nick Reiner's past.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK REINER, SON OF ROB & MICHELE REINER: Well, I think I'm lucky in the sense that I have parents that care about me when I would go out and do, you know, things like drugs and stuff like that. I'd feel a tremendous amount of guilt because I'd think, oh, you know, they're thinking about me right now.
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That was Nick Reiner in 2016, talking about his struggle with drugs and his parents, Rob and Michele Reiner. Nine years later, at age 32, he's in jail, charged with their murders. Since he was a teenager, Nick Reiner battled addiction.
Here's why he says he turned to drugs.
N. REINER: I had no identity and I had no passions. And I think the reason I had no identity was because, you know, I have a famous dad and a famous grandpa. I wanted to etch out my own identity with a more rebellious, angry, drug-addicted sort of persona.
KAYE (voice-over): Nick is not only the son of legendary director Rob Reiner, but he's also the grandson of the famous comedian Carl Reiner. When Nick was living in his parents' guest house, he says he got so high on drugs, he destroyed part of it. He shared that story in 2018 on a podcast.
N. REINER: I got totally spun out on uppers. I think it was coke and something else. And I was up for days on end and I started punching out different things in my guest house. I think I started with the TV and then I went over to the lamp and then progressive, I just, everything in the guest house got wrecked.
KAYE (voice-over): In 2016, he told People magazine he had lived on the street instead of going to rehab, as his parents recommended. "If I wanted to do it my way and not go to the programs they were suggesting, then I had to be homeless," he said.
In 2015, Nick worked with his father on a semi-autobiographical film called "Being Charlie." It's the story of an actor running for governor of California and his drug-addicted son. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is this kid with the silver spoon in his mouth and why does he keep cooking heroin in it? Total waste of a good utensil.
KAYE (voice-over): Nick co-wrote the film and Rob Reiner directed it.
ROB REINER, ACTOR AND DIRECTOR: It definitely brought us closer together.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the most difficult part about working together for the two of you?
N. REINER: I mean, it was a pretty nice experience for me.
KAYE (voice-over): In September, Nick was photographed in this family photo at the premiere of his father's comedy musical, "Spinal Tap 2." The L.A. Times quoted a family friend saying Rob and Michele Reiner "did everything for Nick and put aside their lives to save Nick's repeatedly." Adding, they "had never known a family so dedicated to a child."
Randi Kaye, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, up next, Defense Secretary Hegseth refusing to release video of the second part of that so-called double-tap strike on an alleged drug boat that killed two people. A congressman who attended today's briefing about the ongoing boat strikes is here.
And the President standing by his chief of staff. But why would Susie Wiles dish so much on the Trump White House? Our political panel has some thoughts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:55]
COOPER: More breaking news tonight. President Trump lashing out at the Maduro regime in Venezuela, accusing it of using oil from what he calls stolen oil fields to finance drug terrorism. On Truth Social, he says he's, quote, "ordering a total and complete blockade of all sanctioned oil tankers going into and out of Venezuela."
Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Hegseth and Secretary of State Rubio briefed Congress on the administration's Venezuela policy, the legalities of striking vessels allegedly trafficking drugs, and the controversial September 2nd double-tap strike. Hegseth is refusing to release video of the second strike on that boat that killed two people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: In keeping with long-standing Department of War policy, Department of Defense policy, of course we're not going to release a top secret, full, unedited video of that to the general public.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We're joined by Congressman Chris Deluzio, a Pennsylvania Democrat who is a Navy veteran and a member of the House Armed Services Committee. Congressman, does it make sense to you that the administration very quickly releases not a full video, but an edited video of strikes repeatedly, but not this second strike that has caused so much controversy?
REP. CHRIS DELUZIO (D-PA), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Anderson, I'm sure it will shock you to hear that that doesn't surprise me. Look, they want to use footage when it suits their purposes to show that -- and make the case that, well, they've had nothing but success. And then when there are questions, very real and serious questions, asked about the legalities of a specific strike, magically they change their mind, don't want to show the public.
And remember, this is happening against the backdrop of questions around the legality of the entire operation. Congress has not authorized military force or declared war here. And so they're going down this path without congressional authorization.
I think it's really pretty reckless to not engage the American people in any real debate, not even show your legal rationale to the public. They've kept the legal rationale and opinion closed off, classified out of view from the public to even scrutinize here.
COOPER: I talked to Senator Mark Kelly last night about how the Pentagon has launched an official command phase of its investigation to whether the senator would be punished for his involvement in that video you both and other lawmakers participated in, reminding members of the military obligation to refuse illegal orders.
[20:40:08]
Senator Kelly said that Hegseth actually brought up the video in his Senate briefing today, which Kelly called performative. Do you think the Defense Department is really going to try to prosecute the senator?
DELUZIO: I have no idea. But the fact that, as you say, Senator Kelly talks about the Secretary bringing this up in a classified briefing with the Secretary of State, where they're supposed to be providing sensitive information to senators -- we had a briefing, of course, on the House side as well today -- it's just -- it shows me how unprepared for this job Pete Hegseth is.
Look, there are nearly 350 million Americans. This is not the best person to lead the Pentagon in this moment, period. Whether it's the mishandling of classified information over Signal or this or anything else, he's just shown himself not capable of doing this job for the commander-in-chief, for the American people or our troops.
COOPER: The Republican chair of your committee, as you know, Mike Rogers, said last week that the investigations to this so-called double-tap strike is done and that he got all the answers he needed. Is there going to be, I mean, is that it then? I mean, is there going to be any actual oversight?
DELUZIO: It shouldn't be the end of it. There should be real oversight. I think members of this committee need to see for the American people exactly what happened, who was giving what kind of commands and orders, what were they seeing in real time, who was involved. Those are basic questions, I think, the American people expect us to ask, Democrat or Republican.
And the American people ought to see what's going on here rather than have this hidden from public view. Those who have seen the video have talked about the fact that it is a jarring, just horrific thing. And I think if that's what's going on and it's being done in the name of the American people, the American people ought to have a chance to see it as well.
COOPER: Congressman Deluzio, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
DELUZIO: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: More now tonight on our top story, White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles quoted at length about the President, Vice President, Elon Musk, and many more in the pages of Vanity Fair. All of it the product of 11 separate conversations over 11 months with author Chris Whipple.
Here's a moment from our exclusive interview with the author earlier tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Did she know this was for Vanity Fair? Did she think this was for a long-term book that you were doing?
CHRIS WHIPPLE, WRITER, VANITY FAIR: She knew I was working on a book at the outset. When I told her that Vanity Fair had agreed to do a piece, to publish a piece, she was all in and enthusiastic about it.
COOPER: Why? Because she is so legendarily averse to being out front.
WHIPPLE: That's why I say that this was lightning striking --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining us now, CNN Political Commentators Alyssa Farah Griffin, Brad Todd, and David Axelrod. Alyssa, of course, served as communications director during the first Trump administration.
Alyssa, are you surprised that Susie Wiles took part in this?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Shocking. So Susie Wiles, I served under three of Donald Trump's chief of staffs, and I would say she's known as the most scrupulous, behind-the-scenes, and disciplined. So to see her talk at length and in so many sit-down interviews with the journalist, it almost brought to mind when my friend Anthony Scaramucci talked to The New Yorker and didn't realize it was off the record, which led to his famous ousting.
But that would be very unSusie Wiles --
COOPER: On the record.
FARAH GRIFFIN: On the record, I should say.
COOPER: Right.
FARAH GRIFFIN: I think that the fact that she did this as somebody who's known as disciplined means she had an intent behind it. So whether, as you got to, she thought this was going to come out later in a book, or I could see a world in which she may, on her own, decide to depart the Trump administration at some point, and she wants to be on the record about what she supported and what she didn't.
She was very critical of tariffs. She was very critical of USAID cuts. She's very supportive of Marco Rubio, somebody who may be the heir apparent to MAGA, but she was much more critical, in certain veiled terms, about JD Vance, the Vice President. So I, just from what I know of her, she's not somebody who does something without intention, and I think that should be read into this piece.
COOPER: David, I mean, what do you make of this? I mean, it's somebody who knows the White House, you know, as the chief of staff.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Listen, I agree with everything that Alyssa said, save the fact that she -- I would lean a little more in on the JD Vance thing. She basically called him an opportunist and created an invidious comparison to Marco Rubio, who she said was principled and made a principled transition. So that gives you a little hint to where she's going in the future.
But, listen, you watch that campaign that she ran in 2024, from 2022 to 2024, it was a very disciplined campaign. What was striking about it was, it was a very rational campaign, living alongside a sometimes irrational candidate, and she managed all of that. She got him elected, and she's been very quiet throughout this.
I don't believe that -- I think the choices are the ones that Alyssa laid out, because this is highly unusual. Either she thought she was speaking for a book that was going to come out after she left, or she wanted to clean up the record because she's planning to go.
[20:45:09]
And honestly, the way politics works, Anderson, is -- and everybody in the White House knows this, if the midterms come and they don't go well for Donald Trump, nobody's going to fire Donald Trump. Somebody has to wear the jacket for it. She may be recognizing where the winds are blowing and kind of setting up her own departure.
COOPER: Brad, I mean, members of the Trump administration, even those who Wiles talked about rather bluntly in this interview, jumped to her defense after the article of the President. Is that a reflection on her, more an acknowledgement that she still has the support of the President, or both?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: She has the support of almost every Republican elected official and operative in America. I've known Susie Wiles for 25 years. She's one of the most capable, competent, and humble people to operate at this high a level.
And, you know, I thought one of the most revelatory parts in this article was after, in 2016, when she delivered a report to Donald Trump that she -- things didn't look so good in Florida just a few weeks before the election. And according to the article, he pitched a fit and got really angry, and she left, and then he called her.
And he said -- she said, if you want somebody to set your hair on fire, I'm not your girl, but if you want to try to fix this and win, I am.
COOPER: Yes.
TODD: That's the Susie Wiles I know, and I think that's why Donald Trump likes her. She pulls no punches. She has no fear. And she also doesn't make it about herself. She makes it about the principal and his objectives, and she makes everybody around her better.
COOPER: Alyssa, I thought it was interesting that the President kind of acknowledged, you know, that he agreed with Wiles that, though he doesn't drink alcohol, that he might have an alcoholic's personality. I'm not exactly sure what an alcoholic's personality means but, you know, I remember talking to then-candidate Trump back in 2015 about his brother and his brother's death and, you know, how he never drank alcohol. There is -- I mean, I think it's an interesting moment that the President would kind of say that.
FARAH GRIFFIN: It was very interesting, and it was telling the respect that I do think the President has for Susie Wiles. Because I read this piece twice, and I went back through, she really doesn't specifically criticize the President. Past chiefs of staff of his have fallen into that category where, whether on the record, on background, have seemed to criticize him.
It's much more folks around him, policy outcomes. That was the one thing that could be seen as a dig, and he did not interpret it that way, which I think speaks to the relationship. And I would just say, to Brad's point, he's absolutely right. Every Republican has come out in defense of her, cabinet members on down, and she has the support of the family, which is what matters.
Don Jr. wrote a lengthy, lengthy defense of her because they feel like after everyone abandoned Trump, after --
COOPER: Right.
FARAH GRIFFIN: -- January 6th and those periods, she was still by his side. If she leaves, I'm confident it'll be on her own terms.
COOPER: Interesting. David, I mean, Venezuela -- you know, regarding Venezuela, Wiles' quote is saying that President Trump wants to, quote, "wants to keep on blowing up -- blowing boats up until Maduro cries uncle," and that the White House --
AXELROD: Yes.
COOPER: -- would need congressional approval, obviously, for land attacks, which is contrary to what the President has been saying. How big a deal do you think that is?
AXELROD: Well, look, I think that the -- the -- everybody gets the joke by now. Nobody really believes that this is about drug interdiction. It's increasingly clear that this is about regime change in Venezuela, but she just basically certified that, so it's going to make it harder.
I mean, they can -- they still have to justify this operation here, but it's going to make it harder to justify when the objective is not really drug interdiction, but regime change. But, Anderson, I just want to comment on one thing, which is this. I was fascinated, as you were, about this whole discussion of having grown up with an alcoholic, and that prepared her for this, and it does kind of explain their relationship, I think.
And it made me think of the serenity prayer. You know this. Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. That's how she survived as the longest-standing campaign manager in the history of Donald Trump.
I mean, she's very skilled and a good manager, clearly, but you have to have a certain personality to put up with the kind of personality that Donald Trump has and still retain his trust. And it's interesting that she said, growing up with an alcoholic prepared me for that.
COOPER: Yes. Yes. I found that the most kind of just stunning to me, and honest, and really kind of perceptive.
Brad, we mentioned that Wiles and the Attorney General Pam Bondi completely whiffed the handling of the Epstein files. She's makes a distinction between the new Trump voters in 2024, which she calls the Joe Rogan listeners, who really care about the Epstein files, versus the MAGA base, which she says doesn't care as much.
Does that suggest the Trump White House thinks that the Epstein files has a bigger political problem than it's previously led on? Did you --
TODD: I think what you're saying there is you're saying that Susie Wiles, one thing unique about her is she is a political operator, but she's also run government at pretty high levels before.
[20:50:04]
She has the skills for both. Not everybody can do both. You can have a lot of good campaign skills and a lot of good campaign strategy instincts and not be really good at running government. But I think she is trying to help the President run the government, aimed at the most marginal voters in his camp. And that's what a really good leader does is, they don't just help keep the base happy, they try to keep their eye on the most marginal voters who could leave them.
COOPER: Alyssa, where does this -- I mean, is this a one-day story?
FARAH GRIFFIN: I think that there's takeaways to hold on to. I would pay attention to who Susie Wiles singled out in a negative way and may have painted in a negative life. The Pam Bondi aspect of it, very interesting. The Epstein story is not going away. We're about to get documents in the House of Representatives.
As I mentioned, JD Vance, and also the framing of Russ Vought, those are people who are very senior figures in the administration --
COOPER: Former Project 2025.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes, an OMB director now. I think that signals that she's being very clear about kind of who's on the in and who's on the out if she were to stick around. But in that sense, I do think it continues to be a story.
COOPER: All right. Alyssa Farah Griffin, David Wiles -- excuse me, Brad Todd, David Axelrod -- David, I suddenly made you David Wiles, I don't know why. Thanks very much.
Coming up next, a new episode of my podcast on grief, All There Is, is just out. My guest this week, actor and writer Kelsey Grammer, talks about the murder of his sister, Karen, when she was just 18. He also has some advice for anyone missing a loved one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELSEY GRAMMER, ACTOR AND WRITER: Allow yourself to spend more time in the life they left, in the good that you knew from them, in the joy that they brought you, in the smiles that you knew from them, in the happy accidents you shared, and to let them be remembered, to let them live again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:54]
COOPER: Well tonight, another episode of my podcast, All There Is, was just released. You can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts or listen and watch the full video of the podcast at CNN.comAllThereIs. That's our grief community page.
My guest this week on the podcast is actor and writer Kelsey Grammer. His sister Karen was murdered in 1975 when Kelsey was 18 years old. Kelsey was 20 and though he went on to star in very successful series like "Cheers" and "Frasier," his sister's death and the unresolved questions and emotions he had surrounding it were never far from his mind. Kelsey finally set out to answer those questions and understand those emotions, and what he found has changed his life dramatically. Here's just part of our conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You write about rage, rage of the people who murdered your sister.
GRAMMER: Yes.
COOPER: Do you still feel that rage?
GRAMMER: Yes. Yes. That's -- so I'm glad you pointed that out because it's -- I think there's a part of me that for a while was quite happy to let it take over and just to be angry and not settled on anything and to kind of -- the only target in sight really was myself. So I took some time to, you know, beat myself down for a while.
But that rage is righteous. It comes from the fact that I couldn't stop them, that I couldn't help her, that I couldn't save my sister's life. So I raged at myself, raged at God, raged at them. But the circumstances of it all led me to a kind of peace in the end. But that guy's still in there. He's still around.
COOPER: Has retracing Karen's last hours and last day, has that ameliorated some of the rage? Has it lessened?
GRAMMER: Yes, it has. Yes. It's for a long time in this place where I couldn't forgive myself for what had happened to Karen. And of course, that probably made no real sense. It just had emotional sense. And it had emotional weight that felt true.
And I think, yes, maybe that has helped save me quite a bit. I certainly don't blame myself anymore, and I did for a while.
COOPER: You say in the book, "I'm sorry, Karen, that it's been so hard for me. This last image of you was impossible to shake for years and years. It haunted me in quiet moments and down dark streets, ambushing the joy of a cherry blossom day, crushing it without warning. And today, even to this very day, it has the power to make me shake with grief. But it will not be as I remember you, I promise."
GRAMMER: That was a big healing thing. The lingering image of Karen was always her corpse. And she didn't deserve that. That's why I apologized to her. Because she was such a glorious girl, such a wonderful girl.
And to have allowed myself to remember her in any other way than that was I did myself a disservice. And I didn't really honor her life that way. I honored them more, and they didn't deserve it.
So we got there, and we get -- we did get there in the end. I mean, Karen is with me and --
COOPER: So how do you get there? GRAMMER: -- we're both happy. You just got to go through the process, find out what the truth is. The truth is her life is what identified her, not her death.
COOPER: Is there something you've learned in your grief that would help others in theirs? Because there's a lot of people listening right now who are grieving --
GRAMMER: Yes.
COOPER: -- in all sorts of different ways.
GRAMMER: The only real gift I would hope my experience could offer would be to allow yourself to spend more time in the life they lived, in the good that you knew from them, in the joy that they brought you, in the smiles that you knew from them, in the happy accidents you shared, and to let them be remembered, to let them live again, to breathe again, to be in that life again instead of the horror of their taking off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's Kelsey Grammer on my podcast, which just released tonight. You can listen to the full conversation with Kelsey wherever you get your podcasts, or you can listen and watch the entire podcast episode at CNN.com/AllThereIs. That's both the audio and we put full videos of our podcasts out now.
The CNN.com/AllThereIs, that's our grief community page where you can also see my streaming companion show, All There Is Live, every Thursday. That's at 9:15 p.m. Eastern. So I hope you join me for that.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now. I'll see you tomorrow.
