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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
No Match In FBI Database For DNA On Glove Found Near Guthrie Home; Investigators Hope Unique Holster Could Offer Clue To Suspect's I.D.; Genealogy Testing Underway After FBI Confirms No CODIS Hit On DNA; FBI Offers $100,000 Reward For Information In Guthrie Case; Remembering The Life & Legacy Of Rev. Jesse Jackson; MAGA Civil War Erupts Over Bannon's Text Exchange With Epstein. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired February 17, 2026 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I am somebody.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR OF "NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP": (voice over): From the Jim Crow South, through the Turbulent 60s and into the Black Lives Matter Movement, Jesse Jackson was a constant, unyielding voice for justice.
Abby Phillip, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Abby, thank you so much for that. And thank you all so much for joining us tonight. I'm Kate Bolduan, AC360 starts now.
[20:00:37]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, no DNA match on the glove found near Nancy Guthrie's home, but the Sheriff is weighing in on new leads and new possible DNA hits.
Also tonight, remembering civil rights pioneer and trailblazing Presidential candidate Jesse Jackson. And what the Epstein files say about his close relationship with Steve Bannon and the rift those revelations may be causing inside the MAGA movement.
Good evening, everyone, John Berman here in for Anderson, and we begin with breaking news in the search for Nancy Guthrie, now, going into day 18. Late word that although DNA found on the glove two miles from her home did not match any in the FBI's database or the DNA taken from her home, the Pima County Sheriff does believe that DNA taken from her home could be the suspects.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS NANOS, PIMA COUNTY, ARIZONA SHERIFF: We believe that we may have some DNA there that may be our suspect but we won't know that until that DNA is separated, sorted out, maybe admitted to CODIS, maybe through genealogy.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: That's the sheriff on NBC News. He also said that a ridge or a
wrinkle in the suspect's glove. You can see it right there; we've circled it for you that it could be some kind of a ring, maybe a ring protruding right there and he said his photographic team will be taking a closer look at that.
Now, in addition to that, he acknowledged that his investigators are going gun shop to gun shop in the area, trying to find out who sold a holster like the one in the video or the weapon, and whether the grainy image of the suspect jogs any memories.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP MARTIN, CO-OWNER OF ARMOR BEARER ARMS IN ARIZONA: I was able to look at the photos that he was showing me, and I told the FBI agent I was like, I'm no investigator but my intuition is telling me based on how these people's facial hair looks like. It looks like the guy that was on camera at that house doing the kidnaping. He was like, yes, that's why I'm here. He was like, were going to be going to different gun shops, checking to see if any of these names that I'm showing you here. Any of these people have purchased a gun in the last year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Our CNN's Ed Lavandera is in Tucson with us tonight. Ed, is it clear just how much hope authorities are placing on further DNA testing at this point?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're going to have to go through that genealogical process because it doesn't appear that the tests that have been done so far have really proven or created any kind of pathway to like some investigative lead that they can follow. It appears to be a dead end as far as the DNA on those gloves that that were found, but that is because it did not match the DNA that we have been reporting on that was found here at the Guthrie house. And so, they will kind of put that through the process and work through these private companies.
And John, you know, the interesting news is, is that another high- profile cases, that kind of police work, detective work and has proved proven fruitful at times and led investigators to potential suspects. So, they are going to continue down that path while they also continue to work down other paths as well.
BERMAN: Yes, Randi Kaye in a moment is going to look at some of the success that has been had with that type of investigation. In the meantime, you've been there today. What was the latest you've seen in terms of law enforcement activity near Nancy Guthrie's home?
LAVANDERA: Well, we did see several investigators, two different groups of investigators. One of them came over here to Nancy Guthrie's home. We saw a guy wearing plastic gloves and carrying a bag and we also saw another set of investigators at a nearby home appearing to work on the floodlight camera around the corner of the property as well. We don't know exactly what they were up to we reached out to investigators, they said they were just doing up follow up work here in the neighborhood, and that that could possibly continue. So, not a lot of clarity there.
But we've also reached out to some of these gun shops in the area where we understand investigators have been asking a lot of questions. Most of them said they couldn't comment about what exactly investigators were asking about, but one gun shop owner did say that they were shown several pictures of people that investigators were interested in.
So, that's obviously another area that an avenue that investigators are pursuing at this moment, trying to piece together this the puzzle here, from what that suspect was wearing in that video to what might be might have been sold in the Tucson area over the last few months.
[20:05:05]
BERMAN: Ed Lavandera, on the ground for us on the scene, thank you so much for your reporting.
We're joined now by our law enforcement panel, CNN law enforcement analyst and former secret service agent Jonathan Wackrow, former NYPD detective David Sarni, and former Boston police commissioner Ed Davis who was the lead police official during the search for the Boston Marathon Bombers.
No DNA match when it was put into the CODIS system. How much of a setback --
JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I'm not going to call it a setback and I'm going to actually, you know characterize this as a delay in identification. We do have a glove and we have a glove that has DNA on it, so, it's not that this glove irrelevant and you discard it, it's just that it's not, you know, critical to the investigation at this point in time because we have nothing to match it to.
And as we've discussed before, it becomes evidence when you tie that glove and you tie that DNA either to the crime scene or to a person of interest. Right now, we don't have that. So, it just shifts the investigative pathway, you know differently for the investigators. And now, they have to go back there, can't rely on this DNA. So, what do they do? They go back in time. They start looking through all of these leads that we know there are tens of thousands of leads out there, and they start, again, building out their evidence matrix for what they do have, right. They can't you know, just look back and say everything wasn't hinging on this DNA.
BERMAN: Commissioner Davis, obviously, photos and video were such a big part of the Boston Marathon investigation. How surprised are you that the video we've seen from this doorbell camera, which does have some characteristics that are recognizable, there's the mustache, there's the way the person moves. How surprised are you at this point that we don't know that it's yielded any major breaks? ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Hi John, I'm not surprised at all. These investigations can be very complex. There's thousands of tips coming in one avenue of pursuit is the video. And there's a lot of technology involved in that. Trying to build or rebuild what happened underneath that glove, for instance? What you see there poking out? They'll have computer systems that can try to figure that out to a better degree than they have right now.
But I think that the overall impact of all of this evidence in the video the gloves, the jacket, the backpack, the shoes, things like that, they're going to play an enormous role in being able to solve this thing. And there's no doubt in my mind that they are putting small pieces together every single day. And the puzzle becomes more complete as we go on.
You have to be patient, it's sort of the doldrums of the investigation right now, but they're working tirelessly.
BERMAN: Yes, Jonathan Wackrow, keeps on saying it's like putting corners around the investigation and trying to make that box in a way smaller and smaller. David Sarni, I do want to ask you about the picture of this ring that we, I think we can put it back up on the screen now, we can circle it. Or maybe you see a ring. Maybe there's some kind of an outline of a ring there. How significant would that be? I mean, how would you use something like this in an investigation?
DAVID SARNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well again, anything you've gotten from this video, we're working, everything's been probative. So, if you have this ring so now you have to look at anything else. The type of ring that it is. Is there something that someone can identify?
And I look at it this way this is where when you talk about investigations, this is where everybody, all the investigators bang their heads together and spit out ideas and say, what kind of ring would that be? Some things, and that's where it comes from. This investigation is not done by one person. That ring will not be identified by exactly one person. So, what does that look like? I've seen that before, I think. Let's look at it and they can go into; you go into the social media aspects and things like that.
BERMAN: And now you may get all kinds of tips and calls or letters or emails about a ring. Someone may see something that they recognize there.
Jonathan, it was interesting because in the lead in and Ed had some reporting on this. They're going gun shop to gun shop showing the video, but also pictures of individuals.
WACKROW: I picked up on that.
BERMAN: Right. So, they're showing pictures of people. How do you think they come up with these people. And does this indicate that maybe officials are looking at some specific humans here.
WACKROW: So, listen, there's a bunch of different ways that they may be going about like these pictures. They could be sketches as well. And that's what I would assume at this point in time, that a law enforcement sketch artist took the video that we had and came up with some composite images that they're going to jog memory. But the reason why they're going in there is that's a really weird holster to buy.
So, people in gun shops are going to, you know, realize right away as investigators come in and describe the holster, describe the gun, you know, looking at any type of lead that they can get, even if it's something that someone said, well, maybe someone was in here. We did have that that holster once before. We don't have it now. Or someone was looking for that type of holster. That also can be an investigative lead. But this is the process. This is the process of investigations.
You go out and you pound that pavement. You go to every single gun store. You map out a 50-mile radius from that home, and you go to every single one of them. That's why this investigation is going to take time. This is not going to be solved like "CSI" and people go to one gun shop. The person identifies it and they have a suspect in 30 minutes. That's not where we are right now.
[20:10:26]
BERMAN: You know, detective, I keep on thinking, though, with this holster, also with the backpack which was purchased at Walmart. I've owned my backpack for ten years. You know what if this guy bought this backpack five years ago, or the gun holster five years ago? How much harder does it become to have that be useful?
SARNI: Everything in this video is useful. The fact that somebody will have someone when they've been putting this out. Someone may jog a memory about this. You know you can't tell. That's why when the FBI created that little tent there, they were trying to compare and contrast colors with the scheme. So that's what you're doing. Because sometimes people are people are creatures of habit. Is this person a creature of habit with that, with that backpack? Is it something that someone recognizes going I've seen something like that. He wears this all the time. I had people we've dealt with missing people who didn't have their wallet with them, they always carried their wallet. You know, these are things that you think of, hopefully with the habitual way that people continually see this video.
The gait, the attire that he's wearing, it may jog something and people make mistakes. And that's the benefit of investigators that we do follow from this point.
BERMAN: And that's why you have the reward that's why you keep talking about it, people make mistakes and it's hard not to as the time goes on. At the same time, Commissioner Davis, you know, 18 days into the investigation, every day that passes. Does this seem like a ransom situation? Does this seem like a purposeful kidnap for some kind of an exchange or something else?
DAVIS: Well, John, we don't have the inside information that the police are privy to. So, it's hard to determine if the ransom is really a real attempt by somebody who was really involved in this people come out of the woodwork when there's an incident like this to try to make money off it, tragically and unless there's specific information that only the kidnapper would know, I think at this late date, you have to start discounting that this was a ransom demand. And when you add into it that they're going to news outlets and not to the family directly or to the police directly to try to leverage money, then chances are the motivation is something other than cash.
BERMAN: Commissioner Ed Davis, Jonathan Wackrow and David Sarni, thank you all very much.
Next, a closer look at the other DNA matching technique, which we have been discussing using genealogy data and how it has helped in other big cases.
Also, with the late Jesse Jackson, meant to American politics, to political rhetoric, civil rights, and tonight, to some people who really knew him well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I am not a perfect servant. I am a public servant doing my best against the odds as I develop and serve, be patient, God is not finished with me yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:24]
BERMAN: More on the breaking news in the search for Nancy Guthrie, the Pima County Sheriff says investigators are looking into genetic genealogy options for the DNA evidence they have collected to check for potential matches. This development after the Sheriff said earlier today that DNA found on a glove recovered two miles from her house did not match anything in the FBI's National Criminal Database, known as CODIS, nor did tests show a match with additional DNA found inside her home.
Now, investigators were hoping to establish a link with the gloves worn by the suspect seen in all Guthrie's doorbell camera the night that she disappeared.
Tonight, CNN's Randi Kaye takes a look at how genetic genealogy has helped solve other major cases.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In February 2015, thirty- one-year-old Allison Feldman was found dead inside her Scottsdale, Arizona home. She had been beaten and strangled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She'll never come back and that's what hurts the most.
KAYE (voice over): DNA was discovered at the crime scene but it wasn't a perfect match. So, investigators cast a wider net using what's called familial DNA.
ALAN RODBELL, SCOTTSDALE POLICE DEPARTMENT, CHIEF: It's probably one of the biggest advancements in my time.
KAYE (voice over): The advancements in DNA technology allowed authorities for first degree relatives of the suspect with similar DNA to search genealogy the suspect with similar DNA zeroing in on the killer. They got a hit three years later.
RODBELL: We came up with a family linkage to this person that was in custody.
KAYE (voice over): The sibling of the man in custody turned out to be the suspect, 42-year-old Ian Mitcham, who authorities say killed Allison Feldman. He's currently on trial for her murder.
Investigators in Los Angeles struggled to identify the Grim Sleeper, a serial killer who had eluded police for nearly a quarter century.
DENNIS KILCOYNE, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT, DETECTIVE: We've got this beautiful DNA profile. All these dashes and dots and this and that. But there's no name and address or face to go with it.
KAYE (voice over): They too, turned to familial DNA.
JERRY BROWN, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CALIFORNIA: We can search for someone in our database who has a family member, a brother or a father, who is related to DNA taken from a murder scene. And that's exactly what happened in this case.
KAYE (voice over): A break in the case came when the suspect's son, Christopher Franklin, was arrested and had to provide a DNA sample. Investigators found their familial link to the DNA evidence.
JILL SPRIGG, BUREAU CHIEF, CA DEPT OF JUSTICE: This is the first time we found a relative in the database. It's exciting to us.
KAYE (voice over): In 2010, Lonnie David Franklin ,Jr., the Grim Sleeper was arrested at his home in South L.A. and later convicted of killing ten women.
The 1984 murder of 14-year-old Wendy Jerome also solved using familial DNA a first in New York State. She was killed on Thanksgiving night. Authorities say she been raped and stabbed.
SANDRA DOORLEY, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, MONROE COUNTY, NEW YORK: There was blood evidence shown in photographs around the body.
[20:20:20]
KAYE (voice over): For decades, Wendy's mother waited to find out who took her daughter's life.
MARLENE JEROME, WENDY JEROME'S MOTHER: I've come a long way since that day. KAYE (voice over): In 1999 DNA found on Wendy was uploaded to the FBI's DNA database, no matches. After New York law changed in 2017 to allow for searches of familial DNA, investigators tried again and in 2020, got a hit in the suspect's genetic family tree. Nearly 36 years after Wendy was killed, police arrested then 56-year-old Timothy Williams.
M. JEROME: They came to my house and said, we got him, we got him. And that was, I can't tell you what that sound meant to me. Williams was charged with second degree murder and sentenced to 25 years to life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE (on camera): And, John, according to the forensic genetic genealogy project, as of December 2024, the latest numbers on record more than 750 cases have been solved by using familial DNA.
Genealogy, as you know, is one of the biggest hobbies in this country. So of course, questions do remain about whether or not law enforcement has the right to mine these public DNA databases where people have shared their genetic profiles. It was an issue in the case of the Idaho killings in 2022 in the end, police ended up using DNA from a Q- tip used by suspect Bryan Kohberger's father, to connect Kohberger to the killings. He later pleaded guilty and is now behind bars -- John.
BERMAN: It is no question it can be a useful tool. Randi Kaye, thank you very much.
Retired FBI special agent and hostage negotiator Richard Kolko joins us now. Richard, how much faith, how much effort would you be putting in to this genetic genealogy, this familial DNA versus other modes of investigation at this point?
RICHARD KOLKO, RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT AND HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Well John, I want to say, when you talk about other modes, investigators are going to work on all angles of this investigation at the same time, they will dedicate a certain number of personnel to work on this angle. But this familial DNA that's really checking against CODIS and criminal databases, they will continue with that. And as Randi said, they'll go into that forensic genetic genealogy and that's going to those private or commercial DNA sources.
Now, mind you, different states have different laws on this for privacy, so, there's some jumping around that has to be done. And in fact, some of those companies require you to get a warrant. Some of them when you sign up, there's an opt in or opt out box that says small print. You may miss it when you're submitting your sample, but eventually law enforcement will get there.
BERMAN: I want to ask you about a piece of sound, a piece of reporting from our Ed Lavandera on the ground in Tucson, who said he is hearing from gun shops and investigators are going gun shop to gun shop asking questions, but also showing pictures. Listen to what this gun shop owner says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARTIN: I was able to look at the photos that he was showing me, and I told the FBI agent I was like, I'm no, investigator but my intuition is telling me based on how these people's facial hair looks like it looks like the guy that was on camera at that house doing the kidnaping. He was like, yes that's why I'm here. He was like, we're going to be going to different gun shops, checking to see if any of these names that I'm showing you here. Any of these people have purchased a gun in the last year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So that was Fox News, and that guy was saying he's being shown names and maybe pictures. Ed Lavandera also reporting that gun shop owners are being shown pictures. What kinds of pictures do you imagine? What does that tell you?
KOLKO: Well, the pictures I think is great. I mean they've got that person at the camera there. The FBI's investigative unit might be able to develop some sort of picture. They can use A.I. but what really surprised me about that sound bite was he said they're checking names. So that means investigators have come up with some names that they actually want checked. I think that's fascinating. As you know as well as everybody else watching, from the media perspective, we will get to see a little bit of what's going on in the investigation but in that command post, there's a lot going on. And if they develop some names, that's big news.
BERMAN: It really did sound like that's what he was saying there. We're going to have to dig a little bit more to find out if there are names passed around really, in this investigation. Richard Kolko, thank you so much for being with us tonight, appreciate it.
What more can investigators do to harness the power of the public to try to locate Nancy Guthrie? Callahan Walsh is here. He's the co-host with his father John Walsh of "Americas Most Wanted" and "In Pursuit".
Also ahead, remembering Jesse Jackson. Just a towering figure in America, period. Also, in the Civil Rights Movement.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:29:10]
BERMAN: Five days after increasing the reward to $100,000.00 for any information leading to the location of Nancy Guthrie or the arrest of anyone involved or disappearance. The FBI's Phoenix office has posted a reminder on its social media pages of the reward and the details that are now known about the suspect. This in the hopes that a member of the public will step forward with the vital tip that will break the case wide open. Someone who knows a lot about harnessing the power of the public in the search for perpetrators of violent crimes is Callahan Walsh. He's the executive director of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and co-host, along with his father John Walsh of "Americas Most Wanted" and "In Pursuit".
Callahan, nice to see you. The fact that the FBI reposted the information about this reward as a kind of reminder, what does that tell you about where this investigation stands tonight?
CALLAHAN WALSH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: Yes, you know, with the investigation, they're going in so many different directions. We know that they're looking at DNA, they're looking at crime scene evidence. They're looking at using those sniffer helicopters to try to track down her pacemaker. But they're going to rely on the public as well. And that is a reminder to the public to say, hey, you know, we're still looking for tips. We're still looking for information. Theres $100,000.00 reward now.
You know, it takes quite a bit to get up to that $100,000.00 level. And we saw it started out at $50K. Not every case, you know gets up to $100,000.00 but it's a great incentive for member of the public who may be a little scared to come forward, maybe a little bit weary to help encourage them to come forward and provide the information that they have.
[20:30:38]
BERMAN: How much more or what else could they do to harness the public's help here?
WALSH: That's a great question. You know, we harness the power of the public every week on America's Most Wanted. We help catch the worst of the worst, the uncatchable guys. 1,200 fugitives, 17 off the FBI's Top 10 Most Wanted, and it's about the power of the public.
They can be the force multiplier, the eyes and ears that law enforcement doesn't have, the boots on the ground, the numbers. And somebody out there knows something, I guarantee it. Now, law enforcement has received tips in the tens of thousands. That is a difficult task, but it is a good problem to have.
There's many cases that don't get the fraction of the amount of media coverage, that don't get any tips at all. And so it's going to provide its own difficulties going through that many tips, but at least those tips are coming in. Unfortunately, it's like looking for a needle in a stack of needles. That's going to be the most difficult part, but my hope still lies in those tips from the public.
BERMAN: The Guthrie family has posted multiple videos now, including the most recent one from Savannah. I can't imagine how hard it is for them to be doing this. You know, your family obviously went through an incredibly difficult period as well. How important is it for the family to do this? Do you expect that the videos will keep coming even as the days go on?
WALSH: Yes, trust me, it's not easy making those videos. It's not easy reliving the pain and having to talk about it in front of a camera. But we know that when the public rallies behind a case and there's this much coverage, it does spur law enforcement to roll out resources that they might not have rolled out.
I mean, like I mentioned, those sniffer helicopters, that's not something that we see regularly. And I believe the media pressure has forced investigators to really fire on all cylinders, and thank God for that. I wish every missing person's case got this much attention. But we'll see where the investigation goes.
Right now, like I said, I believe the power is in the public, that the public will find out what's happened to her. But law enforcement is doing a number of things behind the scenes to make sure that this investigation moves forward.
BERMAN: Callahan Walsh, thank you so much for sharing your perspective tonight.
WALSH: Thanks for having me.
BERMAN: Just ahead for us, a look back at the remarkable life, the remarkable words, and the remarkable work of the Reverend Jesse Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Our flag is red, white, and blue, but our nation is rainbow, red, yellow, brown, black, and white. We're all precious in God's sight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:26]
BERMAN: Reverend Jesse Jackson at Chicago's Grant Park on election night 2008. Look at that. The most successful black presidential contender up until that point, weeping openly for the first to go the distance. We stood on his shoulders, is how President Obama and the former first lady put it today on learning that Reverend Jackson had died.
And though everyone leaves a different world from the one they entered, precious few helped transform it. Jesse Jackson did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I was born in Greenville, South Carolina, in rampant, radical racial segregation. Had to be taught to go to the back of the bus and be arrested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Yes, and that's one lesson that did not stick. He organized his first civil rights march in college at what is now North Carolina A&T in 1963. By 1965, in the wake of Bloody Sunday, he had become, at age 24, the youngest staffer on Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.'s Southern Christian Leadership Conference and the head of a Chicago food boycotts.
On April 4th, 1968, at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee, he witnessed King's murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JACKSON: He said, "Jesse, you know, you don't even have on a shirt and tie. You don't even have on a tie. We're going to dinner." I said, "Doc, you know, it does not require a tie. Just an appetite." We laughed. And he said -- and he was talking to my friend, Ben Branch (ph), in the car.
I said, Doc -- and the bullet hit. Everything changed at that moment. It was a defining moment in the history of our struggle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Now, his account of what followed drew anger from those, some, who believed he exaggerated his proximity to the dying Dr. King. It would not be his last controversy. In 1971, he founded Operation PUSH, People United to Save Humanity. The PUSH aimed at persuading businesses to hire more Black workers and executives and open themselves up to Black customers, also to press for keeping inner city kids in school and their parents involved.
By the 1984 presidential campaign, Jesse Jackson was running for the Democratic nomination. He stumbled early on after using an ethnic slur to describe New York's Jewish community. But by convention time, he had finished third. And from the podium, he acknowledged his flaws.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I am not a perfect servant, I'm a public servant, doing my best against the odds. If I develop and serve, be patient. God is not finished with me yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: It was and still is a speech to remember. I remember watching it. I was 12, perhaps most of all for a passage about what this country is that then Illinois State Senator Barack Obama himself would echo in theme while reshaping it for The Times 20 years later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:40:14]
JACKSON: Our flag is red, white, and blue. But our nation is rainbow, red, yellow, brown, black, and white. We're all precious in God's sight.
(APPLAUSE)
JACKSON: America is not like a blanket, one piece of unbroken cloth, the same color, the same texture, the same size. America is more like a quilt, many patches, many pieces, many colors, many sizes, all woven and held together by a common thread.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: He will be remembered for that speech and for finishing second four years later. Jesse Jackson will be remembered for his role as a global hostage negotiator and for the shoulders Barack Obama stood on. He will also be remembered, Reverend Jackson will, for how he remembered another pioneer whose shoulders he stood on.
This is some of what he said in his eulogy for Jackie Robinson in 1972.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: He was medicine. He was immunized by God from catching the diseases that he fought. Lord's arms of protection enabled him to go through dangers seen and unseen, and he had the capacity to wear glory with grace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So much history.
With us now, CNN Political Commentator Bakari Sellers, who says Reverend Jackson was like his godfather. CNN Chief Political Analyst David Axelrod, who knew Jackson for decades and watched the evolution of his political career from the early 70s. Also with us is CNN Anchor and Author of "A Dream Deferred: Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power," Abby Phillip is here.
I have to say, the three of you each have such unique relationships with Reverend Jackson over time. It's an honor to get to speak with you. And Abby, your book which, a, is phenomenal. In writing it, you got to spend so much time with Reverend Jackson. What do you think he would think of all the tributes pouring in today?
PHILLIP: Yes. Well, first of all, yes, it is great to be on with Axe and Bakari, I think, who know Reverend Jackson in different ways. And one thing I think he would have thought is that he would have loved it. He would have loved the tributes.
And, look, he was not always a popular man. In fact, he was pretty consistently controversial for so much of his public life, even as he was famous and well known and admired. And you don't get to be consequential if you don't ruffle some feathers. But I think he always wanted people to see what his end goal was, which was a desire to make the country better.
He wanted people to believe that that was in his heart, because it was. And I think he would have been thrilled to see the tributes coming from the right and the left. I actually saw so many people on the right, who I'm sure he was very critical of, coming out and acknowledging what a critical role he has played in American history.
BERMAN: I love the idea that you think he would have loved it. Oh, a camera, attention to the things I believe in.
PHILLIP: Right.
BERMAN: That's all I want.
PHILLIP: He did love a camera. He did love a camera. BERMAN: David Axelrod, you knew Reverend Jackson for some 50 years, which I have to say is impossible given how young you are. But --
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I appreciate that. You read that just as I wrote it.
BERMAN: You know -- met him first in 1974 when you were covering as a reporter, Operation PUSH. But 2008, Barack Obama wins the presidency. We showed the pictures of Jesse Jackson crying in Grand Park.
AXELROD: Yes.
BERMAN: I was actually in Grand Park covering it that night. What will you remember most about Reverend Jackson?
AXELROD: You know what? That particular image long before today was one that comes to mind first when I think of that night. It was so moving to me. I was standing maybe 20 feet away from him. I don't know exactly.
He was in the crowd, and I was by the bottom of the podium. And I saw his face covered in tears, holding an American flag. And I thought about -- I had witnessed, I had covered one of his campaigns. I had witnessed another. I was working for a different presidential candidate.
But, you know, when he said, I am somebody, he was reflecting his own life. He was a guy, and Abby's book is brilliant at telling this story, but he was born out of wedlock. His father lived next door, a very successful businessman, never really took responsibility for him.
And he was facing withering segregation that Bakari knows so much about in South Carolina. And when he recited that mantra, that call and response to young people and disenfranchised people wherever he went, I may be poor, but I am somebody. I may be black, but I am somebody. I maybe -- he was really speaking to himself.
[20:45:08]
And that night, he saw the realization of his mantra, that something really monumental happened. And he was a part of making that happen. And I think he was just overcome by the sight of the new first family on that stage. He didn't always get along with Barack Obama.
They had their differences and so on. But he never -- I think he never lost sight of that quest for him and for every disenfranchised person in the country to be seen, to be recognized, to be able to reach the full capacities of their being. And so it was really moving. That was an incredibly moving moment for me.
BERMAN: And watching it again tonight is equally moving. And seeing Reverend Jackson actually in the crowd somehow is even more poetic --
AXELROD: Yes.
BERMAN: -- surrounded by other people watching along with everyone else what was happening.
AXELROD: Yes.
BERMAN: Bakari Sellers, you know, your father Cleveland Sellers is himself a prominent civil rights activist. I know you've said that Reverend Jackson was like something of a godfather to you. You showed Kate pictures this morning of yourself in this red little overall outfit. Is that it right there?
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes (ph).
BERMAN: That's adorable. Bakari, you're adorable. But what was it like? Just what was it like growing up around Reverend Jackson with him like a member of the family?
SELLERS: I mean, he was. I mean, he was always there. It was always the individuals like Jesse Jackson or Miriam Berry or John Lewis. It was Judy Richardson. It was all of these people who, you know, you didn't necessarily have to go out and read about civil rights.
It was Stokely Carmichael. These were individuals who actually smelled gun smoke. They laid on jailhouse floors. They, you know, many of them had friends that gave the ultimate sacrifice or what Lincoln called our last full measure of devotion.
And so they knew what it was like. And when you grow up around that, you just can't help but understand what it means to stand on their shoulders. We've always had rifts within the black culture, within black intelligentsia or black activism. You can talk about Booker T and W.E.B. Du Bois. You can talk about Martin and Malcolm.
You can talk about John Lewis and Julian Bond. You can talk about Barack Obama and Jesse Jackson. But the most amazing part about that and one of the things that happened today was the statement from the 44th president of the United States, I think, is something that Uncle Jesse probably would be beaming with pride most about.
The way that Jesse Jackson set the foundation for the Kamala Harrises, for the Barack Obamas, for the Minyon Moores or Donna Braziles, for the AOCs, and even though they're the same age, for the Bernie Sanders, has to be remembered. He's somebody who dedicated his life not to a party because I think that's too small. He dedicated his life to an ideal.
And one of the things that I remember most about Jesse Jackson is how he talked about race. He would always use the metaphor of sport when talking about race and when questioned about race. People would always try to postulate that for some reason African Americans must be bigger, stronger.
It was genetic disposition that we were really good in sport. And Jesse Jackson would always simply say no. It's because we know going into the basketball game that the rims are going to be 10 foot high, that the court is going to be 94 feet by 50 feet.
When you're running a base path in baseball that we know the length going from first to second and second to third. We know the length of a hockey rink. We know the size of a hockey puck. We know how long a swimming pool is.
And the rules are going to be the same each time you step onto that court, each time you step onto that playing field, each time you jump into that pool. The difference is outside of sport, we don't have that same level of equality. Therefore, it's more difficult for those people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds, those black folk in this country, to succeed.
All we want is the same opportunity to have an equal playing field. And so the way that his brain worked, his oratory, his skill, his compassion, the way that he actually talked about bringing races together and those individuals who had the similarity of being poor is going to be missed.
I'm not sure that Jesse Jackson growing up in Greenville, South Carolina, that had to use the bathroom outside, whose father lived next door to him, who grew up in an unwed household, grew up in abject poverty and segregation, knew that he was going to be the man he is today. But I'm absolutely certain that people are looking at him and saying simply job well done, my good and faithful servant.
BERMAN: Generations of people thanking him for the job that he did and that job well done. I'm going to put up the photo again of Reverend Jackson with Martin Luther King in April of 1968. They were together there.
PHILLIP: Yes.
BERMAN: Obviously that is where Martin Luther King was killed. Just so much history. You know, Andrew Young, I spoke to Andrew Young this morning --
PHILLIP: Yes.
BERMAN: -- the ambassador, and just one sentence got me. He said, I first met Jesse Jackson in Selma in 1865.
PHILLIP: Yes. It's a crazy story.
BERMAN: And you're just like blown over by the amount --
PHILLIP: Yes.
BERMAN: -- of history there. How did that early history shape Jesse Jackson over his life?
[20:50:02]
PHILLIP: It was everything. I mean, with Jesse Jackson at a very young age, he did his first protest when he was a college student. He went back home to his hometown, tried to check out a book from the library. They wouldn't let him because he was black.
And he sat -- staged a sit in and got arrested. And ever since then, he had the bug. So when Andy Young met him in Selma, Jesse Jackson had come down to Selma and literally said, "I'm here to help." And he stood there and he stayed up all night and kept people from going outside and causing trouble.
And Dr. King and Andy Young took notice. And that desire, that willingness to do whatever it took to get the job done, to be in the presence of these people who were doing the kinds of work that he wanted to do, that was how he started. And that is frankly how he finished.
He was relentless. He was tireless. He barely slept to hear people tell it who knew him. And a lot of times it was because he would wake up at 5 o'clock in the morning with a to-do list of feeding people in the community, of calling this business and trying to find out who's on this board.
I think he always had in his mind a list of unfinished business of justice. And to his dying day, I can tell you, that is the type of person that he was.
BERMAN: Abby Phillip, Bakari Sellers, David Axelrod, I could talk to you all night and all day about this. It is so wonderful to remember a life like this and the difference that someone like this made. Thank you all for being here tonight.
PHILLIP: Thanks, John.
BERMAN: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:51]
BERMAN: New messages between Steve Bannon and Jeffrey Epstein released in the Epstein files have ignited something of a civil war in MAGA world. In one message, Bannon suggests President Trump should be removed from office during his first term for erratic behavior. The Department of Justice also released a two-hour video of Bannon interviewing Epstein for a potential documentary.
This is Bannon asking about Epstein's time spent in prison in 2008.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, EXECUTIVE AND FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: You're telling me that during that day, you never had a moment, you sat there and go, what the fuck have I done with my life? I'm in a six by nine jail cell.
JEFFREY EPSTEIN, CHILD SEX OFFENDER: You're suggesting I was somewhat depressed and how could this happen to me?
BANNON: I'm not saying depressed. I'm saying a moment of awareness of how could I get myself into this situation?
EPSTEIN: No, I would just say how strange that this happens. It's strange. People would either ask to borrow money or make some other types of comments about it. In the beginning --
BANNON: What were the comments? At the beginning, what were the comments?
EPSTEIN: It serves you -- rich guys right that you're here next to me.
BANNON: There was nothing about your crimes?
EPSTEIN: No.
BANNON: So all this rumor you hear all the time about people in prison that commit the type of crimes you commit, that you're saying in your personal thing is not true?
EPSTEIN: No.
BANNON: It was all because you were rich?
EPSTEIN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: And Bannon did not return messages from CNN, but sent in a statement to the New York Times that his communication with Epstein was all done to, quote, "secure 50 hours of interviews from a reclusive subject."
For more on this, I want to bring in David Urban, former Trump campaign adviser and CNN senior political commentator. David, great to see you. You're shaking your head. I want to get to why in just a second. You know, the 25th Amendment reference from the Epstein files has caused some uproar inside the MAGAsphere. It's dated December 31st, 2018, and it's a text exchange between Bannon and Epstein.
And we should note the context is unclear, but Bannon says, "Going to blow him up right out of the box. White House says zero plans to punch back Fort Apache with no cavalry on route." Jeffrey Epstein then says, "And no soldiers in the fort". He is really borderline. Not sure he wait, what he may do." And then Bannon replies, "I think it's beyond borderline, 25th Amendment."
Now we reached out to Bannon on this exchange and have not received a response, but people like Roger Stone and Marjorie Taylor Greene are speaking out. So tell me about why you were shaking your head and tell me what you were hearing inside the president's supporters.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. So, you know, John, you said also you left out General Flynn and many, many others. If you go to Twitter and just look at, you know, MAGA influencers or just Google, you know, or put in the Twitter search, you know, Bannon, Epstein, see what comes up.
There is not one supporter, not one MAGA person that's supporting Steve Bannon for a variety of reasons. One, it looks like he signed up to try to rehabilitate a person who committed horrendous sex crimes. You hear him in the interview with Jeffrey Epstein. He doesn't say, nobody in prison talked to you about being a pedophile.
He doesn't call him out. He's trying to be polite to him, it seems. It's absolutely mind-blowing. And there's something like 19 other hours of tape that have yet to been released that Steve Bannon says that he's keeping because he was some sort of double secret agent and was going to really try to blow Jeffrey Epstein up.
Well, Roger Stone and many others in the MAGA universe think that that's a crock. And if Steve Bannon is going to be out there trying to defend himself, he better get out there quickly because the narrative does not look good for Steve Bannon at this point. It looks like he was out there to line his pockets defending a sex offender.
BERMAN: How do you think the president will react to all of these?
URBAN: Listen, so I, you know -- Steve Bannon got a pardon at one point in time along the route here. You know, we know -- so we know that they were close. I am, you know, from what I hear in -- lately is that there have not been that much communication with Steve Bannon and any senior officials in the administration in lieu of the -- these revelations.
And I can't imagine that the 25th Amendment revelation and yours seem to the president any more than, you know, he was far away getting further. And I know that this most recent revelation is going to push that boat even further away from this administration.
BERMAN: Yes, again, we'll have to see if the president has asked in any detail about this. But that comment about the 25th Amendment was 2018. It's hard to imagine what was going through Bannon's head at that point.
David Urban, thank you --
URBAN: Yes.
BERMAN: -- for explaining the discussions that are taking place --
URBAN: Not going away, John. Not going away.
BERMAN: Doesn't appear to be. David Urban, thank you.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts right now.
