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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Former President Clinton Testifies In House Epstein Probe; Interview With Rep. Ro Khanna (D-CA); Guthrie Reward Update; Search For Nancy Guthrie Nears One Month Mark; Trump Orders Federal Agencies To Stop Work With Anthropic; Whistleblower Reveals How China Spies On Citizens At Home & In The U.S.; JFK's Grandson Running For Congress; Legendary Singer Neil Sedaka Dies At 86. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired February 27, 2026 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: I wish I had that type of money to spend on that stuff. You'd look quite good in it, though -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Oh, wow, it wouldn't fit me. But it's beautiful.
ENTEN: It's cute, you're just fine.
BURNETT: So, tell me something else that I don't know.
ENTEN: I'll tell you something else that you don't know. You mentioned that image, right, of JFK Jr. on the bike --
BURNETT: On the bike --
ENTEN: --with the suit. Look at this, Google searches for that. Again, the highest level of all time, when we're talking about bike plus a suit. Look at that up 138 percent versus a year ago and thank you for your kind words about my uncle, I appreciate that.
BURNETT: Yes, well, I am so sorry for your loss, I know it's a difficult moment.
ENTEN: Thank you.
BURNETT: Thank you, Harry, and thanks so much to all of you. It's time now for "AC360."
[20:00:41]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, all were learning about what former President Clinton told lawmakers under oath about what he saw and did during his time with Jeffrey Epstein, that, in fact checking the claim made by President Trump and by Republicans on the committee that Trump has been exonerated.
Also tonight, Savannah Guthrie gives new details on how people can claim the million-dollar reward she's offering in her mom's disappearance. And our John Miller and why, almost a month into this, it should not be considered a cold case. And later, President Trump tries to pull the plug on Anthropic, telling all federal agencies to stop using its artificial intelligence after Anthropic CEO stands up to pressure from the Pentagon.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with former President Clinton's testimony. More than five hours of it before the House Oversight Committee, the first time ever a former President has been compelled to testify under oath to Congress. Unlike his wife, the former Secretary of State, he did not afterwards about today's questioning, which the same as yesterday, took place near the Clinton home outside New York.
Also, by contrast with her, he actually knew Epstein in the early 2000s. According to flight logs, he traveled more than two dozen times on Epstein's private jet, and photos of him are in the Epstein files, including this one of him swimming with Ghislaine Maxwell and an unidentified woman.
We know the committee asked him about this one specifically whether he knew the woman there next to him in the hot tub and whether he had sex with her. Mr. Clinton answered no to both questions.
And we know from the opening statement he published this morning, he said more quoting from it now, "I know what I saw and more importantly, what I didn't see. I know what I did and more importantly, what I didn't do. I saw nothing and I did nothing wrong".
He continues, "But even with 2020 hindsight, I saw nothing that ever gave me pause. We were only here because he hid it from everyone so well for so long, and by the time it came to light with his 2008 guilty plea, I had long stopped associating with him".
Afterwards, Committee Chairman James Comer praised the former President for answering or attempting to answer every question put to him. And though he said that when Americans get a chance to see the video, they will "... have more questions about some of the answers given." He also referred to the history made today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): I believe that in the history of Congress, the two highest ranked officials to ever be deposed by Congress would be President Bill Clinton and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
We still have lots of questions about how Epstein accumulated so much wealth and we will continue to bring some more people in and try to get answers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Chairman Comer was also asked about this claim President Trump has been repeating almost every chance he gets, including today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know anything about the Epstein files. You know, I've been fully exonerated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The President this afternoon and here's Chairman Comer tonight, with the help of a fellow Republican on the committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you agree that he is exonerated of this matter?
COMER: From all the evidence I've seen, he's been exonerated for a long time.
REPORTER: And would that preclude your committee? Is that your position from your committee calling him?
COMER: We will discuss that as we move forward. Obviously, we've got more people to bring in, and well see if any new evidence arises. But right now, I haven't seen anything. And if anybody just --
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): Can I just say this? The Epstein victims have exonerated President Trump. This is a trope that you guys are, a rabbit hole you guys are going down. But he's been exonerated over and over again by Epstein victims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: When later pressed on how that could be, Chairman Comer referred to a meeting the committee had with what he said were five or six survivors. He said they all said they never saw or heard anything that Donald Trump did wrong.
We should add that five or six women are far from the hundreds who Epstein victimized. we should also say that both the President and former President Clinton deny any and all wrongdoing in all of this, which raises the following question for the committee's ranking Democrat. If it's okay to depose Bill Clinton and question him about his encounters with Jeffrey Epstein, why not also question the current President?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): Republicans have now set a new precedent which is to bring in Presidents and former Presidents to testify. So were once again going to make that call that we did yesterday, we are now asking and demanding that President Trump officially come in and testify in front of the Oversight Committee. He appears in the Epstein files next to Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell almost more than anybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna. He's been in the forefront of demanding accountability on all of this. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee and took part in both former President Clinton and former Secretary Hillary Clintons depositions. Congressman, thanks for being here.
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Thank you.
COOPER: Long day, what can you say, about what you talked about or what you heard today?
[20:05:18]
KHANNA: Well, first of all, it's important that President Clinton showed up, that he answered every question. He didn't plead the Fifth Amendment it was a civil exchange. And he said he's doing it because he believes in participating in democracy as a citizen. That should be a precedent for Donald Trump to do the same, for Howard Lutnick to do the same and frankly, for other men who are in these files with allegations of having gone to the island to do the same.
COOPER: The Republicans on the committee are saying Donald Trump has been exonerated, do you believe that is true?
KHANNA: What does that mean? I mean, there's certainly just yesterday news that there are three FBI interviews that the Justice Department has withheld from a woman who made allegations that she was sexually assaulted as a minor by President Trump.
Now, I want to be very clear. Those are allegations I haven't seen the files but what is troubling is the cover up. And my view is that the biggest problem with President Trump is that he has not followed the law. The Epstein Transparency Act requires all of these statements to be released. At least half of the statements have not been released. That's what I would want to ask him. Why aren't you releasing all the statements?
COOPER: When you say half the statements, you're talking about millions of documents.
KHANNA: Millions of documents and CNN did an analysis saying that there are at least 90 survivors' statements, not just concerning President Trump, but concerning other men who may have abused or raped these young girls. Their statements to the FBI not in the files. Our law, Thomas Massie and my law requires that release. And that is the biggest issue.
But, you know, as a matter of common sense, most Americans will say, if President Clinton can answer these questions, so should Donald Trump. The person who shouldn't have been there is Hillary Clinton. I mean I don't understand why she was called to testify.
COOPER: She testified she never even met him.
KHANNA: She never met him. She had nothing to do with them. There are thousands of people we could call other than Hillary Clinton. To President Clinton's credit, he said I should be called to testify. I had been on his private planes. And when people see the transcripts of their own -- with their own eyes, we're not supposed to talk about it. I know the Republicans play fast and loose with the rules, but I want them to pay attention to Representative Melanie Stansbury in New Mexico and the pointed questions she asked President Clinton.
COOPER: She's a Democrat.
KHANNA: She's a Democrat and she spoke up for the survivors and their statements and asked some very challenging questions of President Clinton. Suhas Subramanyam and other Democrat asked very pointed questions of President Clinton. So, the Democrats side did not pull punches. In fact, some of the Republicans thought we asked tougher questions. Why? Because our north star has always been justice for the survivors.
COOPER: So do you think I mean, there's no, if I mean, Comer is head of this committee, it is unlikely that the President of the United States is going to come in and they're saying he's exonerated, that he's going to be asked to come in to answer questions.
KHANNA: I think it's unlikely that he will. Nancy Mace has said that she's open to a subpoena for Howard Lutnick that would be a start so I do think we can get some administration officials. And then, of course the midterm elections, one of the questions is going to be, do you believe there should be accountability for Donald Trump? And further investigations that are nonpartisan? I do think if we had Chairman Garcia, he would issue that subpoena.
COOPER: Is Nancy Mace wanting to hear from Howard Lutnick enough if James Comer's behind that?
KHANNA: I don't know where Comer is, but --
COOPER: Would it depend on him?
KHANNA: I don't think so, actually because if we get every Democrat, which we would and Nancy Mace can get a few Republicans, we would have the votes do the subpoena. And Nancy Mace, of course, as you remember, was one of the people who signed the discharge petition with Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene to force the release of the files in the first place.
So, I believe we will have the coalition to have Howard Lutnick come. I mean, today, Donald Trump says he's very innocent. He's very innocent. No one has accused Howard Lutnick of impropriety sexually with young girls. What we have said is, why did you lie about your relationship with Epstein? And did you have alleged business ties and come clean?
COOPER: He said initially, I think that he had been to his house once with his wife. It turned out he had actually been to the island.
KHANNA: He had been to the island, he had been there and engaged, allegedly in conduct with Epstein long after Donald Trump said that, I alerted the police, saying that I'm really concerned about what Epstein is doing. And so, it goes to his judgment. He's the representative of America around the world. You have the former Prince in Britain being prosecuted, Lord Mendelson being prosecuted. The former Norwegian Prime Minister being prosecuted and here in the United States, there's no accountability. And that's, I think what's upsetting people like Nancy Mace.
COOPER: How significant is it do you think that President Clinton testified according to the Republicans that in early 2000s, then citizen Donald Trump told him that he had a falling out with Epstein over a land deal and they were no longer friends?
KHANNA: Well, again, they're not supposed to characterize it, but because they have what I would say is the people should look at the transcript. What President Clinton said was that it was correct that it's up to the committee to make a determination whether to call Donald Trump and he was basically saying his knowledge, he may not have personal knowledge about what Donald Trump did or did not do. That doesn't mean that Donald Trump is somehow exonerated. President Clinton was testifying for what his personal knowledge of the matter is, and when the transcript comes out, it will be perfectly clear.
[20:10:45]
COOPER: Yesterday Secretary Clinton was saying that some of the questions she started to get toward the end were, you know, about UFOs and Pizzagate, did that happen again today?
KHANNA: Not when I was there. They stayed largely on topic. I will give the Republicans credit that for the portions I was there, it was more civil than I expected. In fact, you know, I've got to be candid. I think that there was some sexism in the way Secretary Clinton was treated. She was treated worse than President Clinton was treated.
COOPER: President Clinton was treated better or with what, in terms of --
KHANNA: In terms of the tone, in terms of the respect and I don't understand why Secretary Clinton was called. I really don't, I understand why President Clinton was called. He should have been called, that was appropriate. But Secretary Clinton never met this person and the questions that she was subject to, in my view, the tone was much worse than President Clinton and I thought inappropriate.
COOPER: Do you do you think the Pizzagate questions were one of the reasons Secretary Clinton was called in? Because it's been a while since I went down that QAnon rabbit hole. But if my memory serves, it had something to do with the pizza parlor and Secretary Clinton.
KHANNA: It's so outrageous that I can't even remember the conspiracy. But it's sort of about Hillary Clinton being --
COOPER: Do you think that's part of the reason she was called in?
KHANNA: I think that they're trying to conflate it and say that she was part of some conspiracy theory, and the fact is that she never met or knew Epstein. I mean there was one time in some historical society of the White House that he showed up as a donor, that she may have shaken his hand, but there's no reason that she should have been called.
And I'm saying this objectively, President Clinton should have been called and he should have been subject to tough questioning. But I think she was mistreated, and I hope when people see the transcript and the video, that will become clear.
COOPER: Congressman Khanna, I appreciate your time.
KHANNA: Thank you.
COOPER: Thank you.
Coming up perspective from a former close adviser to President Clinton and why he says Republicans on the committee in compelling Clinton to testify, have made a world class strategic mistake.
Also later, Savannah Guthrie posts on social media about the reward for tips about her missing mom. Our own John Miller says Nancy Guthrie's disappearance is certainly not a cold case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:20]
COOPER: More on our top story, former President Bill Clinton making history, answering lawmakers' questions under oath about his relationship with convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. President Clinton testified that he saw nothing and did nothing wrong related to the disgraced financier.
As I just discussed with congressman Ro Khanna, Democratic lawmakers on the committee have suggested that today's deposition sets a precedent by which the current President could also be compelled to answer questions about Epstein. They continue to demand President Trump sit for an interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. YASSAMIN ANSARI (D-AZ): We've always said we will take answers from anyone, and nobody is above Congressional Oversight. But let's be absolutely honest about something. If the Republicans want to be serious about this investigation and getting to the truth and accountability for perpetrators, then we have to look to the most powerful person in the United States and the world, which is President Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I'm joined now by Democratic strategist, Paul Begala, who was an adviser to President Clinton, Republican strategist and former Trump campaign adviser David Urban. Good to see you guys. David, if former President Clinton can be compelled to testify before a congressional Committee, is there a reason why President Trump shouldn't be held to the same standard?
DAVID URBAN, SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Anderson, it's a good question. Tough one to answer, I do think that there's a slight difference between a sitting President and a former President and so I think that if he is compelled by the, let's assume that for arguments sake, that the House does flip in September and next year there's Democratic controlled Congress, and the committee is controlled by Democrats. I assure you that they will subpoena him to testify, but it will be dragged out for some time because he is a sitting President. I think there's a slight difference. But it does set a tough precedent to overcome.
COOPER: Paul, I mean, did Congressional Republicans make a mistake or strategic error by pursuing the Clintons?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Man, yes, industrial strength, highly enriched weapons grade stupidity, even the Republicans on the committee said President Clinton cooperated and that he was helpful. He answered all the questions, never took the Fifth Amendment. So, he comes out of this just fine. But I think it's very difficult to say, Clinton has to testify, but Trump doesn't.
There's a difference of sitting Presidents. He's right, I worked for a sitting President who was required to testify in a lawsuit, even though the lawsuit later got dismissed, and then they settled it on appeal. Then he was required to testify in front of Ken Starr's grand jury. Then he was required to give blood.
I was standing right outside the office the White House medical unit, took blood from the sitting President of the United States if the sitting President can be required to give blood, then this current President ought to be required to give testimony.
COOPER: David, I mean, two days --
URBAN: That's a pretty good line Begala, pretty good line, Begala.
COOPER: I think he worked on it for a little while today, maybe.
BEGALA: I was there every day; I still have PTSD. You're triggering me, isn't that the kid, say, now, I'm triggering.
[20:20:17]
URBAN: And Anderson, to Paul's point -- you know, to Paul's point, if you looked at the questions that the Republicans, they went in to ask former President Clinton, they were pretty narrow in scope and if you think that if they're going to go in, you know, the Clintons had obviously negotiated what they'd talk about, what they wouldn't talk about.
So, to Paul's point, you know, I'm not quite sure what they thought they were going to achieve by, by dragging them both in. But it doesn't look like they got much out of it. And even President Trump going to go to the helicopter today, you know said, look, I like Bill Clinton. It was terrible, I don't think he should have gotten dragged up there. Kind of interesting point.
COOPER: David, I mean, two days of high-profile depositions. They've certainly kept the Epstein story front and center. It doesn't seem like that's something the President is pleased or would be pleased about. I mean, to your point, he came to the defense of former President Clinton today.
URBAN: Yes well, I mean, this President's been saying move on, right. And the rest of the world doesn't seem to be interested in moving on. Parts of the MAGA universe don't seem to be interested in moving on as well as, you know, countries around the world, the social media, nobody seems -- this doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon and I would suspect that when Democrats, if they do take the House and get control, the story will continue on.
COOPER: Paul, how do you, I mean, you both know, you know, Paul, you know both of the Clintons very well, how do you expect they handle the committee's questions? How do you think they're feeling about it tonight?
BEGALA: I haven't talked to either one of them, but I know him a long time now. They're very different people and they they're different circumstances. I can't wait especially to see the tape of Hillary. I don't know if either of you have ever argued with Hillary Clinton, but it does not end well. I have, okay, I fight with her this or that about strategy or whatever but I love her, I love her, and I think she loves me.
Holy smokes, she kicked the crap out of me. She's so smart, she's so focused. So, my guess is she probably did very well. And President Clinton usually relies much more on his charm, his charisma, and I suspect we'll see that. I do want to note, though, because I was listening to your interview with Congressman Khanna. He has been the breakout star in this.
He's a Democrat who hasn't been too partizan. You heard, he asked tough questions of President Clinton from his own party. He's worked with Republicans to get these files released, a unanimous vote in the Congress that never happened. You couldn't get that from Mother's Day so I've been really impressed with him, and I'm glad that that he made the points he did in his interview with you, Anderson.
COOPER: David, we heard from Nancy Mace, Republican Committee member, commenting on this photo that we're going to show of Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and Epstein from the DOJ writing Howard Lutnick should take questions from the Oversight Committee. President Trump told reporters today he wouldn't have a problem with Lutnick going in and that he's, "a very innocent guy, he's doing a great job".
Do you think Howard Lutnick will go in? Would go in?
URBAN: I think that, Howard Lutnick probably didn't like to hear the President say he should go in. I think that if the Democrats take over, Howard Lutnick's name will be at the top of the list. I think this photograph, as well as e-mails that are in the in the Epstein, you know, release will put him squarely at the top.
You know, he had previously stated he had, you know, never, never had any dealings with Epstein after the one initial meeting at his house. But yet we find out later that he had visited the island, and it seems there was from what the e-mails show that there was maybe another lunch or two in the, in the interactions. And so, I suspect that he'll be at the top of the list.
COOPER: Paul, were you surprised to hear Congressman Ro Khanna saying that he thought Hillary Clinton was kind of treated more aggressively or more poorly than President Clinton was?
BEGALA: Yes, welcome to the last 35 years. It has always been that way. And I think he's right; it's sexist. I'm hard person to judge sexism, okay. But I don't know if you can see from here but I'm a dude. She always gets it worse.
But, you know, I think she always comes out on top, too. I think she probably handled herself. I can't wait to -- they should have done this live. They should have let the press in the fact that the President, Hillary, both President Clinton and Hillary both called for the press to be in there is so wonderful. I wish they had been in there. I think the Republicans probably wish that they had allowed that because they look like they're covering something up.
And I will, to David's point about the Secretary of Commerce, Howard Lutnick, even President Trump, if I were advising them, I mean, this honestly, much better to go into a committee where your party controls it than wait till after the election. It's highly likely the Democrats will control it or wait till you're out of office. You know Donald Trump will be a former President in 1,057 days I look it up. It will be January, 20th, it will be a Saturday. One of those frigid, you know inaugurals that we've all covered.
And then at noon, the sun will come out. The temperatures will go to 72 degrees. The flowers will bloom, the birds will sing, and Donald Trump will be subpoenaed. So, he's going to have to testify one way or the other. If I were advising him, I'd say, do it now, sir, while our party's controlling the committee.
[20:25:26]
COOPER: Paul did you look that up on your giant wall calendar that has it all laid out and every number and every day count.
URBAN: No Paul, Anderson, Paul's got a calendar. He's just every day; he's marking up every. day, right? You know, he's waking up like that every day. Begala does it every day.
BEGALA: I'm sorry.
URBAN: But to Paul's point, Anderson, you know Hillary Clinton, if you watched, if anybody watched the Benghazi hearings, you know, Hillary Clinton gives as good as she gets it. So, I'm sure there was some sparring going on there it'll be interesting to see the tapes.
COOPER: Well, Paul, my friend, Jesse Itzler has a thing called the big ass calendar he makes. I'm going to get one and send it to you.
URBAN: I don't want to plug, I have one, I didn't want to plug him Anderson, I have --
COOPER: I actually have one too, in my office. Paul Begala and David Urban, thanks so much.
Up next, day 27, in the search for Nancy Guthrie, hear why CNN's John Miller says this shouldn't be considered a cold case. Also, what Savannah Guthrie said today about the family's one-million-dollar reward offer.
And later the CEO of the A.I. company Anthropic stands up to the Pentagon and now faces new pressure from the President, what he is saying, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:31:11]
COOPER: As the search for Nancy Guthrie nears the one-month mark, her daughter Savannah Guthrie says the $1 million reward her family is offering can be paid in cash. The Today show host posted on social media today with information about the FBI tip line, reminding people they can remain anonymous.
The reward money now totals more than $1.2 million. The Guthrie family hopes it's going to spark more tips, leading to the recovery, obviously, of their mom. Meanwhile, investigators say they're reviewing surveillance video of vehicles in the area, including areas farther from the Guthrie residence.
CNN's Chief Law Enforcement Intelligence Analyst John Miller joins me now. You've been saying this is not a cold case.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: No, a cold case is when you've exhausted every viable lead, every possible suspect or person of interest, every scientific pathway, and you don't do that in a complex case within a month. They're nowhere near that. There's still much work to be done.
COOPER: There must be a backlog of tips that they need to kind of prioritize or go through.
MILLER: So, there's a backlog of the original 23,000 tips. And, you know, you prioritize them versus, you know, what are the hot leads that you have enough information to act on right away? What are the ones you can investigate your ways into? And then what are the ones that are just not viable? But there's also 1,500 new ones since the million-dollar reward.
COOPER: The idea, though, that this can be paid in cash and can remain anonymous, I mean, again, that's multiple things that make it easier for someone to come forward.
MILLER: This is a big incentive, and it's directed. People who would have seen something and called up as John or Jane Good Citizen to pass on that information, wouldn't turn down a reward, but it wouldn't have been their focus. A million dollars that can respond to a tip that's made anonymously, collectible by a PIN number, even in cash if that's required. This is for someone who doesn't have a possible piece of information. This is aimed at people who probably actually know all or part of the whole story. And it is for the safe return or location of Nancy Guthrie. It's the kind of reward that wouldn't just spur anybody interested in reward money, but might break through the barriers of people who may have been involved or known about it.
COOPER: Is there an argument to be made that that could have been done -- that should have been done early on?
MILLER: I think it's a bad argument, because when you're deluged with tips in the beginning, with a 50,000 reward, with a 100,000 reward, more than you can keep up with, you save that kind of thing for when that starts to slow down. If you offer that in the beginning and you run out of tips, then what do you do?
COOPER: The sheriff's department put out a statement, and I want to read it. It said, "Investigators are actively reviewing surveillance video of vehicles, including areas farther from the Guthrie residence." What does that tell you?
MILLER: It says that they're expanding the perimeter. The idea of there's a dozen vehicles of interest in this case. And there are still a couple of people of interest, not a prime suspect, just people that they still need to investigate to see if they pan out into something, but those dozen vehicles may not be vehicles that they know from the license plate, but they're trying to say here's one on video at the right time on the right place among the right two dates that we're really focused on.
Going further out may actually take you to somewhere where it would pass a license plate reader or a video camera in better light.
COOPER: John Miller, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
The CEO of the AI firm Anthropic rejects the Pentagon's demands. Now, the President has ordered all federal agencies to stop working with the company's technology.
Plus a CNN exclusive. A former Chinese official, now whistleblower, reveals how the communist country spies on citizens at home and here in the U.S.
And tonight we remember singer and hit songwriter Neil Sedaka, who died at the age of 86.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:39:20]
COOPER: With breaking news tonight, Anthropic, the artificial intelligence company that created Claude, has been labeled by the Pentagon as a supply chain risk, effectively blacklisting them. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth had reportedly given Anthropic until 5:01 p.m. today to give the Defense Department unrestricted access to their technology. On Thursday, CEO Dario Amede turned down the Pentagon's request, citing as they often have ethical concerns. Today, President Trump got involved, writing on social media, quote, "I am directing every federal agency in the United States government to immediately cease all use of Anthropic's technology." Secretary Hegseth also went after Anthropic, writing, quote, "Anthropic delivered a master class in arrogance and betrayal."
Joining me now is tech journalist and founding editor of The Rip Current, Jacob Ward. So, Jacob, what's your takeaway from President Trump cutting ties with Anthropic? How big of a deal is this?
[20:40:11]
JACOB WARD, TECHNOLOGY JOURNALIST, THE RIP CURRENT: Well, it's a very big deal in a pure dollars and cents, you know, perspective, Anderson. I mean, this is a $200 million contract, which no company wants to walk away from. And the threat of having all federal agency work cut off is bad, right? Any tech company that gets to do work with the government has a long and very comfortable, you know, money making arrangement.
This is, of course, why Anthropic tried to get this kind of work to begin with. I mean, the story here that we're talking about sounds just like a company with very strict ethical standards going up against the Pentagon. But you have to remember, they walked into this.
Anthropic pursued this kind of high classification, high security clearance work last year through a partnership with the company Palantir. And as a result, they are now in an arena that they had sought to enter for quite some time, Anderson.
COOPER: As you heard, Pete Hegseth accused Anthropic of duplicity, said that he'd designate the company a supply chain risk to national security, writing, "Effective immediately, no contractor, supplier or partner that does business with the United States military may conduct any commercial activity with Anthropic."
So it wouldn't just be the government itself, it would be anybody who's doing work with the Department of Defense. I mean, that seems like it could be a big blow to Anthropic's bottom line.
WARD: It absolutely could be, right? I mean, this is a very, very big deal for a company that is just starting to figure out its revenue model, even though it is, of course, worth, in theory, $380 billion and has raised $30 billion so far this year, right? You still got to figure out your revenue picture.
And so it's not at all clear how they will make money if they are entirely blacklisted from anything directly or indirectly connected to the government. And so the big question now is who's going to step up after them? Because this is the thing that we've seen over and over again in tech circles, Anderson.
It's a very weird thing for me as a tech journalist to see a company try to dictate the ethical use of its product beforehand. Typically, when you speak to tech CEOs, they say, it's not my job to come up with the ethics that go along with this thing I have created. It will be up to democracy and the government to figure that out.
But now we're living in this upside down, in which it is the government seeking to pull Anthropic past its ethical lines and it's seeking to set. So the question now is, will OpenAI and Google also have those kinds of ethical red lines, which is what a letter signed by a number of their employees has suggested that they want to stand with this company.
But of course, there's Elon Musk waiting in the wings for whom supposedly there are no ethical red lines. And he's absolutely happy to do anything he --
COOPER: And, I mean, Dario Amede and his sister and a number of other OpenAI employees, Dario Amede used to work at OpenAI, as his sister did. They are the founders of Anthropic. They left famously. And, you know, I think sort of citing in general kind of concerns about potential uses of the technology and safety concerns. It's in the ethos, supposedly, of Anthropic.
You know, they were -- I think, the only -- one of the only AI companies really, which has been publicly, at least in favor of some sort of regulation, which has earned them the ire of this White House. Where do you think this goes?
WARD: Well, what's so interesting about it, right, is that on the one hand, yes, they have been the most principled company. And as you say, you know, they're putting real money behind trying to create federal regulation. It's important to remember, right, there is no federal regulation around this technology whatsoever.
We don't even have data transparency or privacy laws --
COOPER: Right.
WARD: -- and we're like decades into the social media revolution. So where this goes from here really has to do with whether or not these other companies decide to do what these guys do. And again, this is not democratic, right? There's a group of six or eight people making these choices that are going to affect all of us, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. And it's an arms race and they want to win.
Jacob Ward, fascinating. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Coming up now, a CNN exclusive. A whistleblower who was working for a secretive government organization in China is talking one-on-one with our Ivan Watson, revealing some startling information. For decades, he was part of China's United Front Work Department, which is a unit apparently at the forefront of the communist country's clandestine foreign influence operations.
Tonight, he reveals how Chinese -- China spies on citizens at home and in the U.S. Here's Ivan's report.
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IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Making noodles the old-fashioned way. Ma Ruilin works in a Chinese restaurant in midtown Manhattan. His life transformed since he moved to the U.S. two years ago from China, where he enjoyed much more status and financial comfort because he spent 24 years working as an official for the Communist Party. But now he's making the extremely rare decision to speak out against the Chinese government.
MA RUILIN, CHINESE WHISTLEBLOWER (through translation): The religious database I designed hurt many people. What I'm doing now is my repentance, my apology.
WATSON (voice-over): In a country that is officially atheist, Ma, a member of China's Hui Muslim minority, spent much of his career monitoring fellow Chinese Muslims as well as Christians.
[20:45:07]
WATSON: Was your department involved in closing churches, and closing mosques?
RUILIN (through translation): Yes, absolutely.
WATSON (voice-over): For the last few years, Ma says he was an official in the United Front Work Department, a vast shadowy wing of the ruling Communist Party.
RUILIN (through translation): The United Front has access to all surveillance systems. At least three different types of cameras are installed at mosque entrances, inside mosques, churches and prayer halls.
WATSON: Did some of the work involve trying to recruit informers?
RUILIN (through translation): Yes, every mosque has them. They're paid and rewarded annually.
WATSON: Was anybody ever punished because of this spying and the information that you gathered?
RUILIN (through translation): Yes. Detention, re-education through labor and prison, all of those happened.
WATSON (voice-over): CNN cannot independently verify these claims, but we have been able to confirm Ma worked as a Chinese Communist Party official. Ma's work also involved escorting and monitoring Chinese Muslims going on pilgrimage to Mecca.
WATSON: Here in the U.S., do you think there are people from the Chinese government looking, watching?
RUILIN (through translation): Definitely, there's no doubt.
WATSON (voice-over): U.S. law enforcement is investigating and prosecuting a growing number of cases linked to alleged Chinese interference.
WATSON: In 2022, the FBI searched the third floor of this building in lower Manhattan and charged several people, accusing them of running a secret Chinese police station here.
WATSON (voice-over): One of these suspects, U.S. citizen Lu Jianwang, has pleaded not guilty, while another has pleaded guilty to acting as an agent of the government of China.
WANG WENBIN, CHINA FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESPERSON (through translation): The so-called overseas police stations you mentioned do not exist at all. China has always adhered to the principle of non- interference in other countries' internal affairs.
ROMAN ROZHAVSKY, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF COUNTERINTELLIGENCE & ESPIONAGE, FBI: It's been very aggressive and widespread.
WATSON (voice-over): This senior FBI official accuses Beijing of creating what he calls an Orwellian climate of fear in Chinese communities in the U.S.
ROZHAVSKY: We've seen them send officials here to harass individuals. We've seen them hire private investigators to try to get them to commit violence against individuals.
WATSON (voice-over): One critic of China says he's felt this pressure firsthand. Lin Hai is a Chinese immigrant who lives and works in New York City.
LIN HAI, VICTIM OF BEATING AT NEW YORK PROTEST: (Speaking Foreign Language)
WATSON (voice-over): In 2019, pro-China protesters beat him up in midtown Manhattan when he attended a rally to support the visiting president of Taiwan.
HAI (through translation): I was shocked because I never expected to be threatened or beaten on American soil.
WATSON: Should people here in the U.S. be paranoid and looking over their shoulders for agents or proxies of foreign adversaries?
ROZHAVSKY: If you're a vocal dissident with a large following, I would say yes.
WATSON: It's that dangerous?
ROZHAVSKY: Yes.
WATSON: Here in the U.S.?
ROZHAVSKY: Yes.
WATSON: Do you have estimates of how many people might be acting as proxies for -- or as agents for a government like China here?
ROZHAVSKY: I couldn't give you exact numbers because, you know, but I --
WATSON: Is it in the hundreds or thousands?
ROZHAVSKY: I think hundreds would be accurate.
WATSON (voice-over): CNN has requested comment from the Chinese government, which has long denied interference on foreign soil.
WATSON: Are you happy here?
RUILIN: Yes, very, very happy.
WATSON: Very happy.
WATSON (voice-over): Whistleblower Ma Ruilin knows he may face problems for speaking out against the Chinese Communist Party. For now, he prays for protection from a higher power.
WATSON: Do you have any regrets?
RUILIN (through translation): At least I'm no longer doing bad things now.
WATSON (voice-over): Ivan Watson, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Remarkable.
We -- coming up, we pay tribute to music legend Neil Sedaka.
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[20:53:24]
COOPER: The only grandson of former President John F. Kennedy is running for Congress while grieving the loss of his sister, Tatiana Schlossberg. CNN's Dana Bash recently spent time with him.
Dana, his sister died less than two months ago. Did he talk about her?
DANA BASH, CNN CO-ANCHOR, STATE OF THE UNION: He did. And it is just palpable and understandable how devastated he still is. His sister died at age 35 of a rare form of blood cancer that she found out about only because she was in the hospital after just giving birth to her second baby. And --
COOPER: It's so awful.
BASH: -- it's beyond awful. And the two of them were incredibly close. Let's listen to what he said.
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JACK SCHLOSSBERG, GRANDSON OF JOHN F. KENNEDY: Tatiana is my best friend. We could look at each other and have a conversation without saying anything. She knew exactly what I was thinking all the time. But she's still with me.
She's out there campaigning with me. I think I try to honor her in some way every day by doing something that she loved to do. So maybe that's she loved to swim. Maybe that's go to the pool and remember how lucky I am to be here and be able to do that or hang out with her kids or whatever it is.
BASH: When she wrote that unbelievable essay, she talked about how you tried to be a match.
SCHLOSSBERG: Yes.
BASH: To try to help her.
SCHLOSSBERG: I think anyone can relate to seeing someone that you love suffering and not being able to help is an awful feeling. She needed a bone marrow transplant. So, of course, I wanted to be the one. And I was devastated when I was only a half match. But I tried to convince these doctors who, you know, obviously I know nothing about the treatment and they're experts.
But I argued that a half match might be better because it would shake things up. You know what I mean? I was -- I -- she taught me a lot.
[20:55:09]
BASH: What did she teach you?
SCHLOSSBERG: I really mean it that she taught me that health care and health care workers, she's married to a doctor, she taught me how much respect they deserve and how hard our system makes it on them. And she showed me what's at stake when the government cuts funding by hundreds of millions of dollars for lifesaving research for people who have no hope except for a clinical trial like her and how devastating that is to real people's lives.
BASH: And she wrote about like, how could this be happening to my family again?
SCHLOSSBERG: Our family has had its share of tragedies. That's absolutely true. And I think my mom sets an example for everybody on how to handle tragedy and difficult circumstances with grace. And she's the toughest person I've ever met.
BASH: She's got to be.
SCHLOSSBERG: She is.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: That piece that Tatiana wrote, I mean, it was so beautiful, it was so moving. She also wrote about her concerns over her cousin, RFK Jr.
BASH: She did. And that is not something that Jack Schlossberg shies away from on the campaign trail, because as he goes around the district that takes up much of the middle of Manhattan, he talks very openly about his cousin, about their cousin, RFK Jr.
If you remember, he was one of -- Jack was one of the first, if not the first in the family back when RFK was running for president, to sound the alarm and say, this guy should not be president. And then his mother, Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg, came out and other members of the family did as well.
He said to me that he needs people to stand up against what is happening in this country. And the fact that my cousin is involved makes me sick. He calls him a dangerous, dangerous person. Really, really clear about how he feels as he campaigns as a Democrat against other Democrats who is trying to stand out and stand up to what he thinks is happening that is going terribly wrong with the Trump administration.
COOPER: Yes. Dana Bash. Dana, thanks so much.
BASH: Thank you.
COOPER: Dana's full interview airs Sunday on State of the Union at 9:00 a.m. noon Eastern.
Finally tonight, someone who's brought joy to me, this program and millions and millions of people over many, many decades, singer- songwriter Neil Sedaka, who died today after a career of great notes and great note.
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COOPER: That is one of his earliest chart toppers, "Calendar Girl," from 1960. Neil Sedaka, like so many others at the time, Carole King, who he dated in high school, Doc Thomas (ph), Burt Bacharach, got his start in Manhattan's Brill Building. He and writer partner Howard Greenfield penned a string of hits for himself and others, "Where the Boys Are," "Stupid Cupid" for Connie Francis, and this one, which he made it famous himself.
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COOPER: That one made it to number six in the charts, one of his 30 entries on Billboard's Hot 100 over the years, went through a dry spell in the late 60s, but exploded again in the 70s with songs that were as perfectly crafted as they were impossible to get out of your head.
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COOPER: That was "Laughter in the Rain." It made it to number one for him. So did this one for Captain & Tennille in 1975.
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(SINGING)
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COOPER: His collaboration with Elton John that year, "Bad Blood," also reached number one. I went to high school with Sedaka's son Marc, his daughter Dara as well, and our thoughts are with them tonight. Neil appeared on this program and he reworked one of his hits for us with his grandson Michael.
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(SINGING)
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COOPER: That's Neil and his grandson Michael on the program, because as many of you already know, he was not just one of the great songwriters of all time, he's also a treasured uncle to this sweet little kid on his left there, Harry Enten. Neil Sedaka was 86 years old.
What an incredible life and contribution. He shall be missed.
The news continues. Kaitlan Collins starts now on "The Source."
