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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
U.S. Blockade Showing Signs Of Strain; Trump Hints At Further U.S. - Iran Talks In Two Days; Officials: U.S., Iran Can't Settle On The Time Frame For Iranian Suspension Of Uranium Enrichment; Questions Raised About President Trump's Conduct During Iran War; Trump Criticized For Posting His Jesus-Like AI Image; Unrepentant President Faces Fallout; LA County Sheriff's Dept. Investigating New Allegation Against Swalwell; New Video Shows The Moment Artemis II Capsule Is Opened. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 14, 2026 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN KFILE SENIOR EDITOR: My colleague Gabe Cohen and I spoke to a number of career officials at FEMA who think this guy is actually better than the other Trump appointees at FEMA. They think this teleportation claim it is utterly bizarre, but they see him as more reliable than the others. They say he seems to really care about disaster response. And this is all happening while FEMA is under significant strain.
Senior officials told CNN it is not the same agency it was when Trump took over workplace cuts. Exodus of senior leaders ongoing uncertainty about his future have left career officials thinking the agency isn't prepared if there was a major multistate disaster so we reached out to FEMA and DHS and Phillips, Erin, but we didn't hear back from any of them.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Andrew Kaczynski, thank you and thanks so much for all of you. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:47]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Good evening from the Newsroom.
Topping our CNN Global War coverage, just one week out from the end of the ceasefire, there's fresh optimism tonight from the President and Vice-President.
Fox's Maria Bartiromo says that President Trump told her for an interview airing tomorrow that, "it's over," meaning the war. She didn't elaborate. We don't know if he did either. She's obviously trying to tease her interview, but the President has certainly said as much many times before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We've won, let me tell you, we've won. You know, you never like to say too early, you won. We won; we won the bet. In the first hour it was over.
Oh, I think we've won. We've knocked out their Navy. We've knocked out everything.
You know, I don't like to say this. We've won this with. This war has been won.
We won, okay. They are militarily defeated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The President also spoke with "The New York Post" today about the peace talks, which broke down over the weekend, telling the paper, "Something could be happening over the next two days".
He also indicated he was not pleased with the reports that the U.S. had asked for a 20-year hiatus on enriching uranium, quoting him again, "I've been saying that they can't have nuclear weapons, so I don't like the 20 years," which is odd. Funny if it wasn't so serious because he's the President. Those are his negotiators. So, why would he be surprised by the position they were taking, which is sort of weird.
He added about Iran; I don't want them to feel like they have a win. Late today, Vice President Vance, who CNN has learned, will be taking part in those talks again, expressed optimism about the prospects for reaching a deal look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE (R) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Look, honestly, after 49 years, there's a lot of, of course, mistrust between Iran and the United States of America. You're not going to solve that problem overnight. But yes, I think the people were sitting across from wanted to make a deal. And I know the President of the United States told us to go out there and negotiate in good faith. That's what we did. That's what we're going to keep on doing. So, you never know, though, right?
I mean, I've sat across from united states Senators that I thought I agreed with and you know, you don't know what those people, right. I won't say who you can guess, but I feel very good about where we are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Secretary of State Rubio, meantime, presided over the opening round of negotiations between Israel and Lebanon. It is their first direct talks in more than 40 years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: All of the complexities of this matter are not going to be resolved for the next six hours, but we can begin to move forward and create the framework where something can happen, something very positive, something very permanent, so that the people of Lebanon can have the kind of future they deserve, and so that the people of Israel can live without fear being struck by rocket attacks from the terrorist proxy of Iran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, he's referring, obviously to Hezbollah, which fired rockets at Northern Israel shortly before the talks began. Today, talks ended with Israel and Lebanon agreeing to further negotiations at a mutually agreed upon time and place.
Now, as we said, the President's blockade is showing signs of strain, which I hope is not a double entendre. Within the last few hours, another tanker passed through the Strait of Hormuz after leaving an Iranian port. That's according to the ship tracking site, MarineTraffic.com.
You're looking at live data from it now. You can see a number of vessels moving through the Strait following the coastal route controlled by Iran. The ship in question, which is built to carry heated asphalt, left the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas earlier today loaded or unloaded. We don't know.
It vanished briefly from public tracking sites while transiting the Strait. Then it reappeared on the other side. U.S. Central Command today said that no ships from Iranian ports made it past the blockade during the first 24 hours, which began at 10:00 A.M. Eastern time yesterday.
Now, that said, another data tracking firm reports that at least nine commercial vessels have gone through the Strait since yesterday, including at least two tankers sanctioned by the U.S. for their ties to Iran. We should also mention here that CNN cannot independently verify ship tracking data, which can sometimes be affected by signal gaps and measures to obscure a vessel's location.
In any event, oil prices fell on today's other, relatively hopeful mix of news. American stock indices rose, and the price of a gallon of gas remains steady today at $4.12, which is down $0.04 from its recent peak, but still $1.14 higher than when the war began.
There is a lot to get to in this hour. I want to start with CNN chief White House correspondent and anchor of "The Source" Kaitlan Collins in Washington. What more do you know about this new round of talks the President has been teasing?
[20:05:07]
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN'S CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT AND THE ANCHOR OF "THE SOURCE": I mean, he's sounding hopeful, Anderson, that they could happen. He was speaking with "The New York Post" reporter this morning and, you know, talked about the idea that this prospect of a second round of talks could happen and then called back the reporter to say that they could likely happen again in Pakistan, where they happened over the weekend.
And so, it's still an open question. We've heard other venues, including ones that are being discussed in potentially Geneva, rumor of Turkey. I mean, there's just a lot that is being discussed right now in this moment. One thing we have heard is that if the second round of talks does
happen again, it is likely that the Vice President J.D. Vance will be there leading it again as he was talking tonight about the negotiators that were sitting across the table from him and that he felt like they were actually ready and there to try to make a deal and come to an agreement.
It's still kind of a huge question though, Anderson, a huge question of what any kind of agreement would look like. And one of the key sticking points for the United States has been about Iran developing and enriching uranium and whether or not they would be allowed to do so, because we've gone from hearing that absolutely, they would not be allowed to do so again, part of any deal that is something that the Vice President repeated as he was leaving Islamabad over the weekend, after those 20 hours or something of negotiation.
And then we had heard that there was actually discussion behind the scenes about Iran putting forth three to five years, the United States putting forth this idea of 20 years. But the President himself said today that he did not like the notion that Iran would not be able to enrich uranium for 20 years, that he does not want them to be able to do so, ever. And so, I think that's a real question of what exactly these negotiations could look like and what those sticking points, how they would shape out. And so, all of that is still really an open question right now.
But our sense today of what we are hearing from the President, from the Vice President, from other White House officials, is that they are hopeful that there could be a second round of talks. So, just remains to be seen if they materialize and if those talks actually produce anything and where they go, because we are now about a week into this ceasefire that the President announced. And obviously, there's questions of what happens in a week from today.
COOPER: Does The White House think that the U.S. blockade of Iranian ports is working? Because, as we mentioned, another tanker transited the Strait today despite departing from an Iranian port, according to Marine Traffic data.
COLLINS: We haven't heard from the President on the record today in front of the cameras. He did not make any appearances in front of the press. But obviously he has said that this blockade is going to work to bring Iran back to the table.
I mean, there have been open questions about whether or not that it is actually going to do that and if it's going to change their mind, because it's been their key point of leverage in this war and their main pain point against Americans and U.S. Allies who want things very much to be going through the Strait of Hormuz.
And so that's an open question, especially given as Iran is wanting to charge a toll. The United States has expressed its own, you know, questions about that.
All of that still really remains to be seen, Anderson, if it actually proves to be productive and does what the President intended for it to do.
COOPER: Kaitlan, I'll see you at the top of the hour for "The Source".
Joining me now is former Depuy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman, who led the team that negotiated the 2015 nuclear deal with Iran, which the Trump administration scuttled in the first term. CNN global affairs analyst Brett McGurk, who has held national security posts under the last four Presidents, including President Trump and war journalist Scott Anderson, is with me in the newsroom, author of "King of Kings: The Iranian Revolution A Story of Hubris, Delusion, And Catastrophic Miscalculation".
Brett, do you think there's likely to be a second round of talks in Pakistan any time soon? And are you optimistic about what may come out of them?
BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Anderson, I would never say I'm optimistic on anything regarding the Iran file. I am hearing from people in the region that, the senses were winding our way to another round of talks. So, a diplomatic path and we'll see that is definitely the sense that's out there.
There is a lot of diplomatic work behind the scenes from mediators, the Chinese are leaning on the on the on the Iranians, I'm told. Who knows what's really happening. But I think we are likely to see a second round of talks. But I'm watching two indicators and I think, you know, separate the signal from the noise and what's being said from day to day.
Number one, is the ceasefire holding? Right now, yes, I think that's very good. Number two, is this blockade of shipping from Iranian ports, is that working? CENTCOM is very confident that it is. Some of the ship tracker data suggests some are squirting through. We'll have to see, but then the third thing is Iran going to contest that or not. So, right now they're not, but if they do, then were back into a conflict phase. So let me just kind of back up, Anderson.
Right now, it looks like the diplomatic path is getting some traction. The ceasefire is holding, that's good, and all eyes still on the Strait of Hormuz. Is the U.S. blockade working? Keeping that traffic away from the Iranian ports, that's going to really bite the Iranians. And the second part of that of that mission, for CENTCOM, is to open the international passages to the strait, to give confidence to shippers, to pass through. And that still seems to be not happening.
So, I'm keeping an eye on that. Keep an eye on the Strait of Hormuz. Is the ceasefire holding and do we have this second round of talks before the ceasefire expires next week?
[20:10:15]
COOPER: Ambassador Sherman, I mean, given your expertise in this, you've actually, you know, led these negotiations and that took years of planning and more than 15 months of actual negotiations. Does this, what do you make of the status of these negotiations? I'm not sure if that's the right word, but or talks about having talks. WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: So, it's good that
when the Vice President went with Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, the first time. He actually brought experts with him, you cannot do this kind of a deal without a team of very seasoned people with a lot of deep expertise, because even if you decide on one element, then you have to figure out how you implement it. Then you have to figure out how you verify it and monitor it and make sure it happens.
And if you're trying to do as the Vice President said, a grand bargain, it means you have all of these elements on the table. They fight against each other. You know, it could be that Iran would say, we'll give Hezbollah a little less money, but we want to only suspend enrichment for two years.
So, it all combines and one of the things I think is quite critical, if they go back to the negotiating table, and I hope they do, but not for just 20 hours. It's going to take days, weeks, probably months to get it all done if it's possible.
I hope that they realize that nothing should be agreed until everything is agreed. It was the watchword of our negotiation, and it was critical to make sure that we had all of the T's crossed and all the I's dotted.
COOPER: So just to be clear, nothing agreed until everything is agreed. So, no point by point, okay, that's a deal on this subject and now were going to do this because it's a jigsaw puzzle that all has to fit together.
SHERMAN: Absolutely, it's a jigsaw puzzle that has to all be put together and one of the problems that I think the Trump administration has had is two things. One, they wanted at the beginning for Iran to simply capitulate. That's why the President says, we've won, we've beaten them. We don't want them to win. But quite frankly, in any negotiation, even with adversaries, even if you find people odious, they have to feel like they got something or you can't get the deal done.
So, call it winning, call it negotiating, call it giving them something. But there has to be a deal and a deal means both sides have to get something out of it. And secondly, I think the President has believed he can get this done in one big fix. And that's not how this process works. I wish it did.
The last 28 days of the 2015 negotiation, I spent, John Kerry spent 19 days in a hotel nonstop to get to the final elements of this deal.
COOPER: Scott, are you optimistic at all? Do you think this is going to lead somewhere?
SCOTT ANDERSON, AUTHOR, "KING OF KINGS: THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION": I'm not very optimistic. I think there's two kinds of core questions here. Who benefit's from dragging the process out?
COOPER: Time is on the side of Iranians. ANDERSON: Absolutely is on the side of the Iranians. And the second
is, which side can endure the most suffering and the most pain? And I think clearly, the Iranians have proven that as well.
You know, this idea that the blockade so ships can't come in. I mean, this is a country that's been, you know, had tens of thousands of bombs dropped on it in the last month. The idea that it's going to somehow, you know, kneel down because of the naval blockade, I think is silly. And I think --
COOPER: The idea that this is now an economic, potentially economic pain being inflicted on Iran, we've inflicted military pain on them that hasn't really worked to cow them or have a regime change that actually results in something. You know, the economic pain is going to do anything.
ANDERSON: The economy was already in a shambles. You know, that's what led to the to the demonstrations and the killings in January. I think that -- I think that the regime, I think if you go back and I think it's important to look at what happened in January, that the regime, there was demonstrations against the regime for ten days that were largely peaceful. They were metastasizing in size. Finally, the government reached a point where it thought it was going to go down. So, they killed 30,000 to 40,000 people in one weekend.
They see their back against the wall and, and as Miss Sherman said, they need to feel like they're getting something out of any sort of negotiated settlement and they don't have much to give because the, they could be overthrown by the people and they don't, you know, they'd be slaughtered.
COOPER: Yes, Brett, I mean, do you, this is not a popular government. Obviously, there is support there, but there's, you know, 93 million people. There's a lot of people, a lot of different opinions. Is this a government that's motivated to really make some sort of a deal or what would it be, their major motivation?
[20:15:03]
MCGURK: I have to say, I largely agree with the thrust of what Scott's saying. I also have to we have to have some humility. We really don't know what's happening inside Iran.
And if you if we were on this two weeks ago, Anderson, and someone had said, we are going to see a ceasefire and then the highest level talks between Iran and the United States since the 1979 revolution, with Ghalibaf meeting face to face with the Vice President and with the IRGC there and the entire team from around there, I would have said that's highly unlikely to happen because I did not think the first move of whoever rises to the leadership ranks in Tehran after this conflict would reach out to the great Satan. The one thing that, going back to Khamenei, they said you cannot do, they really just shattered a taboo.
So, it's fairly extraordinary that that happened and that these talks are still ongoing. So, I don't know, I it'll take time. COOPER: Do you read that as a sign of I mean potential desperation or
we don't know?
MCGURK: So, you could read it two ways. You could say they feel so strong that they're coming to, you know, show that we have the strength and were going to were finally going to meet with you face to face at the most senior level. We've never done it before. Or they're in some trouble, Anderson. And they actually, they know it and we are offering significant sanctions relief, as I understand it, which is something they want and to, you know, they can do a violent crackdown, but they also want to, I think, alleviate some of the economic strain in their population. So, we have some cards to play.
COOPER: Ambassador, if memory serves me correct me if I'm wrong. One of the criticisms of President Trump initially against the deal that that you were intricately, you know, brought about in 2015 was the moneys paid, you know, money that Iran got out of it.
It sounds like any deal we make now, there's going to be a lot of money involved as well.
SHERMAN: There's going to be a lot of money involved. And there's even been some discussion that there would be money that would be given in advance as sort of a sweetener to get a deal done. I think both Brett and Scott are correct. There is economic pain for sure in Iran, but the IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is clearly in charge right now.
Yes, they want to make sure that there is a future for their country. But I do think they feel that this is existential for them. They lived through the Iran-Iraq war for eight years, being just hammered and they stuck with it. They are a culture of resistance. I think they may come to the table, but they're not going to give up the things that they believe are part of their national pride and that includes, in their view, a right to enrich, in their view, to have a missile program, in their view, to have people in the region, their proxies, help them out.
Whether we scale that back, whether we get to a place where we feel there's greater security about their commitment to not having a nuclear weapon, all of those things are important, but it's going to be tough, tough negotiating. And the UAE is in China trying to get China to put pressure on Iran. I'm sure that's happening. The President of the United States is headed to China in May. There's a lot of incentive for him to get this to a better place.
COOPER: Now, pride has a seat at the table. Ambassador Sherman, thank you, Brett McGurk, Scott Anderson as well.
Coming up next, more on what's next. Peace talks or not. Also, new evidence that Tehran is taking advantage of a ceasefire to dig out buried missile launchers. These are new satellite images, apparently, of some of that effort.
And later new allegations against departing Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell above and beyond the ones that prompted his resignation. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:47]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: I think the people were sitting across from wanted to make a deal and I know the President of the United States told us to go out there and negotiate in good faith. That's what we did. That's what we're going to keep on doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's Vice President Vance today, with his take on negotiations with Iran. There's new evidence to tell you about that during the cease fire, Iran has been working to remove debris blocking the entrances to underground missile bases. These are satellite images reviewed by CNN show front end loaders scooping up rubble from the blocked tunnels and loading it into nearby dump trucks.
In the Newsroom tonight, joining me is former army JAG officer in Iraq and Syria veteran Margaret Donovan, also CNN military analyst and retired army colonel Cedric Leighton.
Colonel Leighton, what do you make, first of all, the satellite images. Should anyone be surprised that Iran would be trying to dig out some of its missile launchers from rubble during a cease fire? That's I assume, what we would do as well.
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, I think we would do it as well, Anderson. And I think it's not a surprise that the Iranians are doing this. We know for a fact that the Iranians have been preparing to dig themselves out of these kinds of things for a really long time, and now that they've been attacked, and the result is that some of these underground tunnels have been hit, the entrances have been damaged. I they are really gearing up to bring back the missile launchers and perhaps other things as well.
COOPER: Margaret, the President apparently told Maria Bartiromo, the war is over. It's a tease for her show tomorrow. He said such things before. So, I guess we'll have to sort of see what that actually means.
On the blockade, is that legal? Can anybody just, can the U.S. blockade ports?
MARGARET DONOVAN, JAG OFFICER IN IRAQ AND SYRIA VETERAN: Yes, it's a kind of a complicated scenario. So, of course during peacetime a blockade would be illegal and the wartime scenario, a blockade is basically a lawfully recognized act of war. But the significance of that is that we're not technically in a cease fire if we are actually executing an Act of War. So, it is it's a very aggressive act.
It basically allows you to use force against ships, against third party country ships, right? Not just parties to the conflict who are attempting to breach the blockade. It also, as you just talked about with the colonel, is really redirected a lot of our attention and our focus to the Strait of Hormuz, when it seems like there's a lot of activity happening inland, that we should probably also be paying attention to.
COOPER: You're talking about nuclear?
DONOVAN: Yes.
COOPER: Yes. Colonel Leighton, if the ceasefire expires without any deal or additional negotiations, what would you expect renewed us military strikes on Iran to look like, to say nothing of Israeli strikes?
LEIGHTON: Yes, that's a great question, Anderson. I think what we would do is we would concentrate on the Strait of Hormuz to keep that open or to reopen it really, I guess, would be the better way of saying that. The other thing that could happen is they would go after places like Kharg Island. Once again, I know they've struck these targets many times, but that's something that they would probably do again. And then I would also expect them to once again hit leadership targets. And that would definitely be a combination of U.S. and Israeli strikes at that point.
[20:25:44]
COOPER: I've talked to Margaret, General David Petraeus and others who said they expect the ceasefire to be to be extended. Certainly, seems like the administration is eager to get some sort of a deal. You heard the Vice President say he thinks the Iranians want to make a deal. Nothings in writing at this point, I mean, so is that normal? And would the next step be actually put something in writing? Does writing matter anymore?
DONOVAN: That's a good question. Um, look, I don't think anybody even knows what the terms of the current ceasefire are, right? Like I said, were actually conducting an act of war by placing a blockade. It's not clear that Israel agrees to any of the terms that Iran understands any of the terms. So, when you think about how long it took for the JCPOA to get nail down, that was like over a year, I think it was 18 months. And now were talking about just like slap dashing some agreement together in a couple weekends in Pakistan. You definitely want something in writing, if only to prevent what happened last time during the first ceasefire.
COOPER: There are going to be some people who listen to this and hear that and say, oh, well, you know, look, this is not how the President makes deals. And yes, you can do it, the antiquated, slow way of like fine points on everything. But this is a new way of doing it.
DONOVAN: Yes, well, it's a new way with pretty significant consequences. Weve seen 13 service members killed a global economic crisis. So, certainly there are many ways to do it, but some of them are more efficient than others.
COOPER: Colonel Leighton, how complicated would it be for the us to go into Iran, cease its enriched uranium stockpile because the President himself talked about the complications of plane landing and wet sand during the operation to rescue the downed U.S. airmen on Easter Sunday, presumably digging up the uranium would include, I mean, that would take a long time, wouldn't it?
LEIGHTON: It sure would, Anderson, unless we really know exactly where the uranium is. And we don't know that, actually. But let's assume we did for a second. Even if we did, it would require building airfields. It would require, at the very least, clearing some of the area that we'd be working in. I would require the provision of bulldozers and front loaders and all other kinds of equipment. You know, basically what you'd get in a like for a road construction detail and the kinds of things that we could expect is a lot of equipment being lost in a situation like that.
So, like you saw the aircraft that were destroyed in the wake of the pilot rescue operation, the same kind of thing would happen there, but it would be at least ten-fold and it would take a lot longer than the rescue of the air crew then took. And that that would be a significant thing. You really can't do this kind of thing either without the cooperation of the Iranians, which you're not going to get, or with the element of surprise, and you're not going to get that either.
COOPER: Colonel Leighton, thanks very much, Margaret Donovan as well, appreciate it.
Coming up next, with the President going after Pope Leo for a third day, the question is about his state of mind tonight. Trump Biographer Maggie Haberman joins us.
And later, new allegations of sexual misconduct against outgoing Congressman Eric Swalwell. And the shock and betrayal, even close friends say that they are feeling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RUBEN GALLEGO (D-AZ): Eric Swalwell lied to all of U.S. He lied to the most powerful people in this country, and they trusted him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:32:59]
COOPER: Critics have long questioned President Trump's state of mind, but a number of one-time allies on the far right are now shouting about it, especially over his conduct during the Iran war and some of his most outlandish online postings of late, like his recent threat to destroy Iran.
He posted, "A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again," which is both weirdly phrased and genocidal. Then, of course, there was his all-night online post-a-thon on Sunday evening into Monday morning, which begat this gem, A.I. Jesus Trump, the President of the United States, bathed in that golden, God-like celestial light, with light emerging from both his hands, healing a sick man while a woman prays, staring at the orb of light in Trump's not-tiny hands. Hours later, he did take down the A.I. image and came up with one of the lamest lies imaginable, saying he thought it was an image of a doctor. The New York Times' Peter Baker reports the President's, quote, "erratic behavior and extreme comments in recent days and weeks have turbocharged the crazy-like-a-fox-or-just-plain-crazy debate."
For more, I'm joined by Maggie Haberman, White House Correspondent for The Times, with co-author of Jonathan Swan, of the upcoming book, "Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump." It's got a golden cover.
Maggie, do the President's incendiary statements at this moment in time, in the middle of a war, do they feel any different, or is this a conversation we have just had for I don't know how many decades?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, what if I -- 50 decades. What if I said yes, because both are true, Anderson? It feels a little different in a time of war. It feels certainly more incendiary, and it feels as if they're escalating in tone, and yet you're correct, as you were describing the debate, you know, crazy- like-a-fox versus crazy debate.
People forget that President Trump first started attacking popes in 2016, and that was Pope Francis. Now, obviously, what happened more recently was certainly more inflammatory, and personally for myself, it's another first of the Trump era that I don't remember ever hearing a pope described as weak on crime before.
[20:35:02]
Popes aren't really known for being mayors but -- which is generally what you would associate that kind of a phrase with. It is true that, you know, the church does -- and I'm not Catholic, I did spend a fair amount of time in Italy years ago -- the church, in my understanding, differentiates between, does see justice, you know, in terms of, you know, for a wrongdoing in a judicial sense or a legal sense as very real and important. But that's a little different than vengeance, which is what, as best as I could tell, Pope Leo was responding to when President Trump threatened to wipe out an entire civilization on Truth Social the other day.
COOPER: Yes. I want to play just something that he had said about Pope Francis back in 2016. You can kind of see the evolution, I guess.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think that the pope is a very political person. I think he doesn't understand the problems our country has. I don't think he understands the danger of the open border that we have with Mexico. And I think Mexico got him to do it because Mexico wants to keep the border just the way it is because they're making a fortune and we're losing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's -- I mean, it's -- maybe there's an evolution. I mean, the -- you know, he followed up his criticism of the pope with, obviously, the AI Jesus imagery. One of the things that struck me about that, which was Sunday night to Monday morning, I mean --
HABERMAN: Right.
COOPER: -- I think that image was posted, like, in the 9:00 p.m. hour on Sunday, and then he was posting all the way into, like, the 4:00 a.m. hour on Monday morning.
HABERMAN: Right.
COOPER: I know they have made a thing about how, you know, this guy doesn't need any sleep, but, like, the human brain does actually need sleep. I mean, you can be the toughest person in the world, but, like, you know, you get plaques and tangles after a while if you don't sleep. Is anyone in the President's orbit -- I mean, is that -- is this common for him to be up all night?
HABERMAN: Just as an observer, Anderson, I think we've all seen, and certainly the people around him have seen, that this version of his presidency, he's doing a lot more post-1:00 a.m. truthing or, you know, putting things on social media than he did when he was on Twitter in term one, and the volume has certainly increased. And it seems, just based on what he is reposting, that he's scrolling replies or he's scrolling things with his name on them.
Some of this is reminding me, Anderson, I mean, he -- we've seen this over and over again with President Trump, where he doesn't like when he can't control situations or events, and obviously the war in Iran, despite claims that it was the plan all along for the Strait of Hormuz to be closed and now there's a blockade, that's a little hard to fathom.
There have been things that have gone well. There's no question about that in terms of what their objectives were, you know, really damaging the Navy, really damaging, you know, any air fleet or the ballistic missile capacity and so forth. But, you know, Iran is still able to fight back, and so what it reminds me of a little bit is the coronavirus pandemic when the President couldn't control that except that wasn't something that he caused.
I mean, this was a novel virus that came here. You could argue that he didn't, quote unquote, "cause the war," but he certainly made a choice to go into this war.
COOPER: Yes.
HABERMAN: And so it's just a little different.
COOPER: Yes.
Maggie Haberman, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
Up next, more on the political fallout from all the people in Michegaas (ph), including criticism from folks on the far right who normally support him. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:42:50]
COOPER: President Trump tripling down on his criticism of Pope Leo, claiming, once again, that the pontiff doesn't understand Iran's nuclear threat, telling an Italian newspaper in a phone interview today that the Pope, quote, "Doesn't understand and shouldn't be talking about war because he has no idea what's happening."
Italy's prime minister called those comments unacceptable, but then the President lashed out at her and what he calls Italy's lack of support for the war. The newest attack on Pope Leo coming amid flack that the President is getting after posting that image.
More from CNN's Tom Foreman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "He shouldn't be talking about the war because he has no idea of what's happening." For a third straight day, President Donald Trump is hammering Pope Leo and insisting he owes no apologies.
TRUMP: No, I don't, because Pope Leo said things that are wrong.
FOREMAN (voice-over): It all stems from the pope's criticism of the war in Iran.
POPE LEO XIV, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: Too many people are suffering in the world today. Too many innocent people are being killed, and I think someone has to stand up and say there's a better way to do this.
FOREMAN (voice-over): And some influential figures who were in Trump's own base clearly see the President picking an ill-considered fight he cannot win.
MEGYN KELLY, HOST, "THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW: No one's tried to sugarcoat the Catholic Church's opposition to war. They're pretty big on Jesus and his teachings, which do not include promotion of war.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Trump's online Easter threat to Iran brought a chorus of criticism and set off conservative pundit Tucker Carlson.
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, "THE TUCKER CARLSON SHOW": No decent person mocks other people's religions. To send out a tweet with the F-word on Easter morning promising the murder of civilians and then saying, praise be to Allah, without explaining any of it, you are mocking me and every other Christian because we're Christians.
Oh, I get it. We can't support that.
TRUMP: God bless the USA Bible.
FOREMAN (voice-over): To be sure, especially after an assassination attempt, many Christians have seen Trump as a kind of political savior.
TRUMP: I stand before you in this arena only by the grace of Almighty God.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Saying he is just the man to trumpet their deeply conservative values and, as the nation went to war, to have a Defense Secretary holding prayer meetings at the Pentagon.
[20:45:04]
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Let every round find its mark against the enemies of righteousness and our great nation.
FOREMAN (voice-over): But now, rather than walking on water, Trump seems to be stepping into quicksand. His suggestion that the American pope was chosen last year only because Trump was in office has outraged some Catholics.
KATIE MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: I don't know how much main character energy you have to have to think you got the pope elected.
FOREMAN (voice-over): And that post of Trump as Jesus was snatched down amid furor. Never mind that Trump said he thought it showed him as a doctor. Even some once-faithful followers aren't buying it.
KELLY: It is blasphemous by any definition of that word. Insulting, mocking, or slandering the divine. That's what he's done.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: I'm joined now by former Trump administration official Matt Mowers and Journalist Gretchen Carlson, co-founder of "Lift Our Voices." Does it feel, Gretchen, that the President has touched a third rail with this? Or is this something that will just be forgotten down the road?
GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST: Yes, I hate to be so pessimistic, but I think people will just forget about it in another week because there might be something else that's, I mean, even crazier to a certain extent. He's made fun of people who have learning disabilities. He portrayed Michelle and Barack Obama as monkeys. He's made fun of just a slew, the military.
And there just never seems to be any retribution for him in the way in which he attacks people who actually voted for him. And so, you know, in this case, I hate to say it, I think it's just going to blow over again.
COOPER: Matt, I mean, the President says he thought the picture of himself as Jesus was actually a picture of himself as a doctor, which I'm not sure, I mean, I don't -- do you believe that? Do you think this will just blow over?
MATT MOWERS, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well, look, I'm going to take him at his word that that's what he thought.
COOPER: Really?
MOWERS: As a Catholic, I'm glad he clarified it.
COOPER: You are?
MOWERS: Yes, I am, because, look, as a Catholic, I'm glad he clarified it. I'm glad he took it down. You know, and --
COOPER: Do you worry that the President of the United States can't identify what a doctor looks like and thinks it's a man in biblical robes with celestial light pouring from his hands?
MOWERS: I mean, I think we've seen for quite a few years now, Anderson, that, yes, the President moves things pretty quickly, especially memes that others generate onto his own social media feed. We can debate about whether that's a good process or a bad process, but let's just accept that probably is the process, right?
And I'm not going to assume that he's actually looked at every single post he puts up overly closely. I don't think he does. He's quick to communicate through the social media platforms that he utilizes. And, look, I think on the larger piece, as a Catholic, we believe that, you know, the pope has ultimate say over moral authority, but then we also believe that the President has -- is elected to represent the sovereign interests of the United States.
And, you know, we've seen those two issues collide before. I mean, even Ronald Reagan and John Paul II, who had a good relationship and worked closely together to end the Cold War, had strong disagreements about nuclear disarmament, with President Reagan obviously ramping up the U.S. stockpile and the pope opposing it.
So this isn't -- and certainly you go back to the notorious fights around the Obamacare and the contraception mandate that was put in place and the disagreements between the pope and President Obama. So these disagreements do happen, just we're happening to understand it in a different context because we've got a guy from Chicago and a guy from New York, who are both actually in the middle of the discussion right now. It's very familiar to us.
CARLSON: But Anderson, I think --
COOPER: Yes?
CARLSON: -- what's more offensive to Christians is the post of him trying to be Jesus. Because what I heard today that really stuck with me was that to be a real Christian is to walk the walk and talk the talk. And just my personal opinion, that's not President Trump, although he does, I think, see himself as a sort of savior.
And so to me, a real Christian would never post an image like that because they would know in their heart that that is not walking the walk and that that is blasphemous and sacrilegious, which makes me go back to my original point, which is he's not walking the walk, but I do think in a certain extent he thinks he's a savior.
COOPER: Matt, the President was critical of the pope for talking about war, said that he shouldn't, he doesn't know anything about it. He doesn't seem to have a problem with the Secretary of Defense invoking bringing Jesus in as backing the war and, you know, holding prayer vigils and opening up this discussion and using sort of religious imagery and, you know, his faith in promoting this war. Can you have it both ways, that the pope's not allowed to talk about the war but the Secretary of Defense can talk about religion and -- as backing the war?
MOWERS: Well, you know, I think one piece that folks are often missing is, yes, the pope is the head of the church. He's also the head of a nation state in the Holy See.
[20:50:05]
And so, you know, these are types of discussions that heads of state frequently have. You know, does he have a right to opinion? Of course he does. Does the President of the United States have a right to push back as a head of state? He frequently does, and he has done that consistently.
As far as what Secretary Hegseth is doing, it's not uncommon for our troops to pray before battle. I mean, that's been happening since, you know, the outset of our nation, the Revolutionary War. Just look at the writings of the founding fathers, and so --
COOPER: The Secretary of Defense, it's a little -- it is -- I mean, this is not what we have traditionally heard from the Secretary of Defense.
MOWERS: I'd -- I would take question with that, only because I think we have had secretaries of defense in the past who've, you know, said prayers before our troops, certainly have prayed for the safety and security of our troops when they go into battle. By the way, those are prayers that every American is probably holding in their heart as well.
You know, I don't -- as a Catholic, I don't think God's going to take, you know, sides on death. Ultimately, there's only one individual who gets to determine judgment at the end of the day. But it's not uncommon for folks of all stripes across the world to pray before anything contentious, certainly before going into battle.
COOPER: Matt Mowers, appreciate it. Gretchen Carlson as well.
Coming up next, resigning from Congress did not stop new sexual misconduct allegations against Eric Swalwell. What his latest accuser says he did when our CNN coverage continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:36]
COOPER: We've got more breaking news. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has just announced they will be investigating a new allegation against outgoing Congressman Eric Swalwell. A new accuser says he sexually assaulted her in a Los Angeles-area hotel in 2018.
Swalwell resigned from Congress yesterday, a day after dropping his bid for governor of California after four women accused him of sexual misconduct, including sexual assault allegations from a former staffer. Today, Swalwell's attorney said he, quote, "categorically and unequivocally denies each and every allegation of sexual misconduct and assault that has been leveled against him."
The new accuser, Lonna Drewes, says she met Swalwell in 2018. He offered to connect her with Silicon Valley investors, but she claims this happened during their third meet up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LONNA DREWES, SWALWELL ACCUSER: I believe he drugged my drink. I only had one glass of wine. When I arrived at his hotel room, I was already incapacitated, and I couldn't move my arms or my body. He raped me. And he choked me.
And while he was choking me, I lost consciousness. And I thought I died.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Drewes' attorney declined to share detailed corroboration of her allegations. CNN could not independently verify them.
CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig joins us now with more. So the L.A. County Sheriff's Department are investigating, probably not surprised given the nature of those allegations. What kind of evidence will they be looking for? What happens now?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: You know, these are really difficult cases for prosecutors, Anderson, because in a case like this, you have a literal he said, she said, and it all comes down to consent. But what just happened today, this second accuser coming forward, alleging involuntary sexual contact, non-consensual sexual contact. Now there's two, and yesterday there was one.
And so the prosecutor is now going to be able to talk to both of those women and see if their stories corroborate one another. And they're also going to look at things like text messages at the time, whether these people told others about the assaults at the time. They're going to look at medical records. So they're going to have to take a look at all the evidence, you know, taken together and decide whether a charge is valid here.
COOPER: The -- there's already criminal investigation in New York. How strong of a case do you think that could be in New York?
HONIG: So here's the thing to keep in mind. Each of these cases can only be charged in the actual county where the alleged physical assault occurred. So one of them is in New York. The other is now in Los Angeles County. So they're going to have to stand on their own. However, they can cross-reference each other because as a prosecutor, you can introduce what's called other bad acts evidence. So if you have the case in New York, you can try to also introduce evidence of what happened in Los Angeles and say this is a pattern, this is a way that he went about doing this.
COOPER: Does the time the alleged victims took to come forward, does that complicate things for prosecutors? Just -- I mean, certainly from an evidentiary standpoint, it might.
HONIG: It used to more than it does now. It used to be 15, 20 years ago the thinking was, well, if someone didn't come forward at the time this happened and the new allegation is 2018, why would they come forward six, eight years later? Now I think the law and judges and juries are much more understanding that it does take time to come forward, that victims are traumatized, that they need to take time to see sometimes other people come forward.
And you do see this. Once a group of people come forward, that can make it easier for others to come forward and tell their story. So it's not as much of a problem now as it would have been a decade ago or more.
COOPER: All right. Elie Honig, thanks very much. I appreciate it.
Coming up, we got -- well, from news like that, it's a pleasure to bring you a story like this. We've got some new video in of the integrity capsule hatch being opened after the Artemis II astronauts' perfect splashdown. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do it. Say it.
Yes! Let's go!
Ike (ph), welcome home. Christina, welcome home. Yehey!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeremy -- absolutely, welcome home, brother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There it is. Reid! What's up? Welcome home, brother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just a remarkable moment for that Artemis II, returning to home, if you're watching her coverage, on Friday night. It was such a joy to have something like that, to talk about and to bring so many people together, and watching it from this angle.
It's so interesting because, Elie, we were watching this when it was live, and you couldn't tell at all what was going on. We knew they had entered the capsule, but to see this, it's just so, like, human and real.
HONIG: I was in suspense watching on TV, and what a great moment to just unify us, to bring us together, something, forget about politics, everyone can get behind this --
COOPER: Yes.
HONIG: -- and cheer for them.
COOPER: We are glad they're home with their families.
That's it for us.
HONIG: Sure.
COOPER: The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
