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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Powerful Nor'easter Threatens 40-Million-Plus On East Coast; Authorities Urge Residents To Avoid Kratom In Wake Of Ole Miss Students' Deaths; Sources: Chinese Intel Helped Iran Target American Troops; Trump-Xi Summit Wraps Up After Leaders Discuss AI, Trade, Iran War; NY Times: Rogue AI Meddled With U.S. Govt. Websites; Military Families Raise Alarm Over Trump Arch Observation Deck. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 25, 2026 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Christopher Lamb, CNN, Paris.
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ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Imagine to be at that Notre-Dame mass tomorrow. Thanks so much to all of you for joining us. "AC360" starts now.
[20:00:30]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Good evening, from the Newsroom, we begin tonight with enormous and already destructive storm that 40 million people are facing through the weekend.
You're looking at what's left of the road connecting North Carolina's Outer Banks, where the Nor'easter is battering the shoreline. Further up the coast, including in New Jersey, high tides made worse by a full moon tomorrow are expected to cause widespread flooding.
New York could see up to three feet of water in places, as well as winds hitting 50 miles an hour in the city and 60 in the Boston area, along with more than a month's worth of rain over the next two days.
Now, storm watches and warnings are up all across the region. CNN meteorologist, Derek Van Dam is on the Massachusetts shore just south of Boston. Danny Freeman is in Atlantic City, which has already seen strong waves. We begin with Derek and more on the forecast. What's the latest where you are, Derek?
DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, so, were in Scituate, Massachusetts. This area is no stranger to strong nor'easters, but what's going to set this storm apart from previous storms is the duration. This is going to a relentless three to four-day slog of northeasterly winds that push up the Atlantic Ocean. I'm very concerned about the tide cycle tomorrow morning, especially into Western Long Island and Southern Manhattan.
We could see some of the highest water levels since Hurricane Sandy back in 2012. That's really saying something about the seriousness of this storm that is approaching the potential here for overtopping the seawall at Battery Park. Even one to two feet of inundation on some of the taxiways across Laguardia Airport on Western Long Island.
I want you to see this satellite loop that I have pulled up. This is just astounding. It looks like a hurricane, a very well-developed eye right in the center. We have to treat this like a tropical system because it will have similar impacts, even though, Anderson, it doesn't have a name given to it.
It is a nor'easter. It doesn't have tropical characteristics. However, we will experience the inundation of coastal communities.
We will also experience the high wind and the heavy rainfall that could lead to localized flash flooding. I mean, look at some of these winds that we're seeing right now all out of the northeast, where I'm located, here in Scituate, Massachusetts. We've already had tropical storm force gusts and the potential to receive six inches of rain from the coast through about 100 miles inland brings the potential of localized inland flooding as well.
Keep in mind, Anderson, we also have full leaves on the trees. They haven't fallen yet across this part of New England, so they're going to act like a sail catching the wind as it relentlessly pounds the coastline here.
So, the potential to pull down branches, full trees, electrical wires, power outages is really a concern here -- Anderson.
COOPER: What area is going to be hardest hit?
VAN DAM: Well, it's ranging anywhere from the Cape of Massachusetts right down to Long Island. We're heading into the coastal areas of New Jersey, for instance. We're really focusing on honing in on the coastline for the greatest impacts. Because of this multi-day kind of onslaught of the winds pushing in from the northeast. So, that's going to push up the Atlantic. We're going to go through several high tide cycles. They'll be exaggerated by the full moon. We call that an astronomical high tide.
And so, that brings the potential for multiple river gauges and coastal gauges, reaching moderate to major flood stage. And that is already causing destruction. We know that North Carolina Highway 12 was already washed out. A 500-foot section completely stripped of its pavement earlier today, and that wasn't even at the height of the storm.
So, as we reach the peak impacts of the storm, which will occur tonight, right through Sunday, we have a good 48-hours of some of the worst impacts of the storm. We don't want to sleep on it. It may not feel like a hurricane, but it's sure going to pack a punch.
COOPER: All right, Derek Van Dam, we'll continue to check in with you. Thanks very much.
We want to go to CNN's Danny Freeman, who is in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Danny, how bad is the expectation there?
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's remarkable, Anderson, we've been out here all afternoon, including after 5:00 P.M. when Governor Mikie Sherrill of New Jersey first declared that state of emergency and only now has this intense weather picked up.
You're right, we're in Atlantic City. We're at the far-end of the boardwalk right here. And what's amazing about this area is this entire spot was actually reinforced over the course of the past several years, just because of storms like this, and just because the power of this inlet and the ocean here is so intense.
[20:05:02]
So, what people in this area of New Jersey are really concerned about is, of course, that damaging flooding that they are expecting. And then also intense winds that we are already now seeing here in Atlantic City.
It's really intense, Anderson, because the local officials here, they say that flooding is going to happen, that the residents here should expect flooding to happen. But the key is, is that, as long as the residents of Atlantic City are staying in their homes, as long as the residents of Atlantic City are not trying to drive through flood waters, local officials here are still fairly convinced that people can stay safe and that they can get through the storm.
But the other thing I'll note, Anderson, is that officials, as Derek Van Dam was noting, were waiting to high tide about now at 8:00 P.M. As the main point of concern. Well, now they're looking ahead to high tide 12 hours from now at 8:00 A.M. As a major point of concern, because, again, the potential for major flooding is now going to be even more risky at that particular time.
So, you're seeing the intensity of these waves crashing along these rocks. This is exactly the point where Atlantic City officials for years, have been trying to make sure that there is enough guardrails here, so that this area and some of these more low-lying areas behind me don't get flooded.
But again, like I said, Anderson, we're feeling the impact of this storm come in as nightfall comes as well -- Anderson.
COOPER: Danny Freeman, appreciate it. We're going to continue to monitor the storm throughout the hour. You can check on it too 24/7 by downloading CNN's new weather app. You can find a link to it at cnn.com/weather or the iPhone app store, use the Q.R. code at the bottom of your screen.
Tonight, the deaths of two students at the University of Mississippi is focusing attention on a product that's as close as the next gas station or convenience store counter. And as potentially dangerous, addiction medicine specialists say is certain controlled substances, it's called Kratom.
And in seven states, it already is classified as a controlled substance. Yet elsewhere, this herbal extract can be bought over the counter or online. It's unregulated by the FDA, meaning there are no federal standards governing potency or labeling, yet it targets the same part of the brain as opioids. CNN's Randi Kaye has more.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... possible O.D. They do not believe the subject's breathing, trying to start CPR over the phone.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A dispatcher in Lafayette County, Mississippi, on Monday, responding to a possible overdose at the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss.
The university identified the victims as two students. Aidan Hamilton, a freshman from Englewood, Colorado, and Robert Strang, a junior from Atlanta.
Investigators are looking into whether the deaths are connected to Kratom, an opioid like herb that can produce both stimulant and sedative effects. While there is no evidence confirming Kratom was the cause, packaged Kratom sold from a retail store, was found in both investigations.
That's according to the Lafayette County metro narcotics, a multi- agency law enforcement unit.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Here, the autopsy is going to be key, which is, was it an overdose involving only Kratom, or were there other aspects to it in terms of other substances, whether they were legal or illegal?
KAYE (voice over): Mississippi's governor said in a statement that the States Department of Public Safety and Bureau of Narcotics are working with local law enforcement to expedite toxicology reports. The head of Mississippi's Department of Public Safety told CNN. Until those investigations and toxicology testing are complete, we cannot rule out foul play.
RAVEN TUSTALL, OLE MISS STUDENT: College is supposed to be where we grow and gain new experiences. it's not supposed to be where our lives end.
KAYE (voice over): Officials have asked people to avoid Kratom.
MILLER: You can buy it in gas stations. You can get it in convenience stores without having to jump through hoops to do it that make it seem harmless and safe.
KAYE (voice over): A spokesperson for student, Robert Strang's family issued a statement saying, we are heartbroken by the loss of our dear son Robert and are trying to process this unimaginable loss.
A statement released by the university from Aidan Hamilton's family read, "Aidan was a bright, wonderful young man who was taken too soon.
WTVA reported that several fraternities and sororities have placed black ribbons outside their on-campus houses. That station also said campus vending machines offering free Narcan have been emptied. Narcan can help reverse respiratory depression from a Kratom or opioid-like overdose.
MILLER: In a case where there's a Kratom overdose, whether Narcan will help that directly, it will certainly, in all likelihood, help it in the cases where it's a combination of kratom and other opioids.
KAYE (voice over): Just last week, the State Attorney General's office trained students at Ole Miss on how to use Narcan to help save a life.
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[20:10:01]
KAYE (on camera): Kratom isn't illegal in Mississippi, but the A.P. has reported that Oxford, where Ole Miss is located, banned related products back in 2019. Meanwhile, the CDC reports that calls about kratom related poisonings increased more than 1,200 percent between 2015 and 2025 -- Anderson.
COOPER: Randi, thanks so much.
Joining us now is addiction psychiatrist and professor of psychiatry and population health at NYU Langone Health. Dr. Ayana Jordan. Thanks so much for being with us. What is what is Kratom? How harmful is it?
DR. AYANA JORDAN, ADDICTION PSYCHIATRIST: Yes, so Kratom is a plant that is indigenous or found in Southeast Asia. And naturally occurring plants, the active ingredient, which is 7OH or 7 hydroxy is not dangerous. But what's happening right now, and what we're seeing is that many of the products that are available are unregulated, right. And so...
COOPER: They could be anything.
JORDAN: They could be anything, right? But what we know is that it's way more potent than the active ingredient that's in the natural plant, and that there are synthetic derivatives of 7OH that is causing these really intense effects.
COOPER: I mean, is there a legitimate Kratom? I mean, because in my neighborhood, I see in stores the signs selling it.
JORDAN: Yes, so there's no legitimate Kratom here in the United States. It's totally dysregulated.
COOPER: No regulation.
JORDAN: No regulation at all, right. And so, there are states that are trying to regulate it, but they're not looking at safe supply, but rather, getting people arrested if they are selling it, right.
And so, one of the things that I think is important is making sure that we have some idea of what is in the products that people are selling because it's available everywhere.
COOPER: And people are, I mean, younger people are taking it. What to stay up to for energy or -- JORDAN: So, there's a host of reasons. First of all, it's cheap. it's only $5.00 a pill. You can get it online. You can get in convenience stores, but in lower levels you it makes you stay up, right.
So, people like it because they like to have that stimulant-like effect where they can study for tests or party, right.
What's unfortunate is when you are taking higher levels of the 7OH, which is the, you know, ingredient in Kratom, it can cause really opioid like effects, right. So that's when we're talking about sedation and really constipation and in extreme cases, death.
COOPER: And so, how are people dying from it? It stops your heart, what is it?
JORDAN: It is inability to breathe, right. A respiratory depression.
COOPER: So, you suffocate?
JORDAN: You stop breathing.
COOPER: You stop breathing.
JORDAN: Yes, very similar to what we're seeing with opioids, right? Because it binds to it has a partial activity with the same, it's called the alpha receptor that opioids bind to. And so, one of the things that I think is really important, and I just want to say is that if there is some thought that someone may have taken too much of Kratom, you can use Naloxone, which is a medicine that can reverse --
COOPER: That's Narcan?
JORDAN: That is Narcan, yes.
COOPER: So, that's what it looks like.
JORDAN: You use it -- this is what it looks like and it's really easy. You can put it in the nose. You press this, plunger here and then it delivers a spray like that.
COOPER: And people can get that in places.
JORDAN: People can get it right. it's available through the, the Department of Health here in New York City. You can get it in the pharmacies and I always say, I want Naloxone to be easily available as Kratom is and unfortunately, it's not.
COOPER: Yes, but that can help?
JORDAN: But this can absolutely help, yes.
COOPER: Ayana Jordan, thank you so much.
JORDAN: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
COOPER: Coming up next, all the Presidents flattery of Xi Jinping before, during and after their three-day summit. What, if anything, came from it. We'll take a look at that and new reporting on what Iran got and is getting from China to more accurately target American troops with deadly airstrikes.
Later, breaking news, new reporting on yet another case of A.I. going rogue. And this time, according to the New York Times, OpenAI systems meddled with government websites. We'll be right back.
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(VIDEO OF AN IRANIAN MISSILE STRIKE.)
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COOPER: Well, that is an Iranian missile strike, you are watching that killed three Americans in Jordan back in July. And tonight, CNN has learned about China's role in that and other air attacks. Four sources tell us that a series of recent U.S. Intelligence assessments conclude that Chinese satellite imagery and intelligence support are behind a dramatic improvement in Iran's targeting capability, including on that base in Jordan.
The news landed just as Chinese leader Xi Jinping was wrapping up his visit with the President, who continually praised Xi and China's First Lady.
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DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We've had a tremendous visit from two spectacular people, and we really enjoyed it. And I think we've made tremendous strides. We've made great strides, very positive for both countries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The visit seemed to have delivered little in the way of substance from either side. The President now says he'll attend the November APEC Summit in China, and that President Xi will be at the G- 20 Summit in Florida a month later.
During their tour of the National Archives today, he said he'd spoken with Xi about Iran but offered no details about any conversation.
Yesterday at the White House, the President made a point of mocking former President Biden, whose portrait is conspicuously absent from the portraits of former presidents he's installed in gold frames.
[20:20:11]
Instead of a photo of President Biden, he has a picture of an autopen instead. The President took time to make sure that Xi knew this was a way of demeaning former President. President, doing all he could to ingratiate himself with Xi these last few days, a far cry from his past tough talk. Here he is just 11 years ago, criticizing President Obama for having a dinner for Xi.
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FOX HOST: He's getting a big dinner free at the White House addressing the U.N. if you were President, would you throw him a big dinner?
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I would not be throwing him a dinner. We've had this conversation. I'd get him a McDonalds hamburger and I'd say, we got to get down to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Times have changed. Joining us now is Johns Hopkins political historian, Leah Wright Rigueur, former Trump campaign adviser David Urban and Randal Phillips, former CIA station chief in Beijing.
Leah, to see the President Trump mock former President Biden in front of an autocratic leader like Xi, I guess not surprising, but still, did it surprise you?
LEAH WRIGHT RIGUEUR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think we should still be surprised and we should still have the capacity to be horrified by the President's actions. But in particular, this action, mocking a former President, mocking his predecessor at a moment where U.S.-China tensions, U.S.-China relations are tense, but also in front of the President of China and at a moment where China is thinking about, you know, what is U.S. strength.
So, you have the President of the free world mocking Joe Biden in front of a President of a communist country. And so, I think when we see somebody like Xi, President Xi laughing at that moment, I think it's laughter. That, one, is about being caught off guard. But also, two, about this is the circus that were in right now. This is childish. This is classless.
And so, there's a way, I think, that you can be strong while also soothing tensions. There's a way, and I think Trump is heavy on spectacle. We saw a lot of spectacle, a lot of pageantry over the course of the last few days. But it's also, I think, important to showcase the strength of U.S. Democracy and showcase a level of decorum and respect for the office of the presidency.
We didn't see that today with this behavior.
COOPER: David, there was something particularly kind of pathetic about the President's attempt to make sure that Xi understood that this was mocking President Biden, kind of reaching out and kind of, you know, kind of as if he didn't get the joke, kind of explaining the joke, which is obviously never a good position to be in.
It apparently that moment played well with some of the online kind of trolling supporters of the President. I'm wondering what you thought of it. DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, look, I wouldn't have been my move, but I disagree with the professor there in that, the President went to the National Archives, showed President Xi all our most sacred documents, the constitution, the bill of rights, the Declaration of Independence. I mean, he went to literally where all those documents are enshrined.
Anderson, at the state dinner, they played tunes from, they had the U.S. Military band singing songs from Les Mis, which are banned in China about uprising and democracy. So, I'm not quite sure that the President was weak in any part there showed any weakness in America. The pomp and circumstance and pageantry that Lee is talking about was, was just pure diplomacy that President Trump was simply repaying President Xi for the diplomacy that was shown to him upon his arrival in Beijing.
I think he was trying to put Xi on equal footing, that they treated him equally. Anything less would have been a snub to President Xi. And so, I don't see it the same way Xi does at all. I think it was a show of strength. You had the band there. You had a B-1 bomber flying overhead with a sonic boom, right, during the National Anthem.
I don't know how much more strong you can get. And the ultimate sign of strength, wait, and, Anderson, the ultimate sign of strength. President Xi flew home in a U.S. made Boeing 747. So, I'm not so sure that anybody looked weak there.
COOPER: You don't think it's a sign of weakness to mock the former President of the United States in front of a dictator?
URBAN: I think, it maybe distasteful, but I don't think it weakens the U.S. position vis a vis China. I don't think the Chinese are not going to wade across the straits of Taiwan because the President showed him that picture of The Portico.
COOPER: I just think it makes him look small. You know, it's not the first time, anyway.
URBAN: Anderson, yes, exactly. We can, we can agree to disagree on that. But, I just think that, you know, that all the other, the things that Lee is talking about are just flat out wrong.
COOPER: Randall, you heard the CNN reporting on Chinese satellite imagery, intelligence helping Iran strike a U.S. base in Jordan, where three American service members were killed. U.S. Ambassador to China David Perdue said in an interview today that President, Xi Jinping to halt any assistance to Iran when the two spoke during the state visit.
Do you think China will pull back of its support from Iran?
[20:25:20]
RANDAL PHILLIPS, FORMER CIA STATION CHIEF IN BEIJING.: Absolutely not. The relationship, the intel sharing relationship between China and Iran has been going on for a long time. This is something that -- this assistance that they are providing definitely helps what China is trying to achieve here, which is a continuous weakening of the U.S. Military posture, not only worldwide, but especially in Asia. We have to draw resources to Iran.
And keeping this conflict going actually serves that purpose. Certainly, China doesn't like the disruption in the energy markets, but this is something that that kind of assistance, I think, is going to continue.
COOPER: Do you think, Leah, that the President seems to believe that that the things that impress him, big dinners, pomp and circumstance impressed the leaders of China? Do you think that that is true? To David's point, he was greeted. You know, well, by I guess by most estimates in China this is returning the favor.
RIGUEUR: So I think that there is an element of the pomp and circumstance and the spectacle that that absolutely the president that President Xi appreciates. But by that same token, the real reason that I think Xi -- part of President Xi's visit over here was so concerning, was so important was about the tense relationship that the United States and China have, but also trying to understand what are the United States' weaknesses? What are their strengths?
And so in that respect, this is actually empowering for somebody like President Xi. It is empowering in a sense of saying, we have control, we have leverage. We have were operating from a position of strength.
And I just want to point out that for someone who constantly has talked about China, has denigrated China, has been saying, I am not afraid to challenge China. I am going to put 145 percent tariffs on China and then back down.
But as late as July 2026 has said that China is behind election interference. It is the reason I lost the 2020 election. Who is running an ad right now that is talking about communism and that there will never be communism in the United States is a little astonishing, and it presents really a stark contrast to see Donald Trump then lay out the red carpet, lavish him with attention, and then walk away from this summit with nothing more than a smile. So what was actually accomplished here?
And I think that's the really important thing that we should be asking, what were the policies that came away? What were the agreements? As of right now, there is nothing.
COOPER: David, what do you think came out of this?
URBAN: Yes, well, it is still to be seen, Anderson, correct? I mean, I do agree that President Xi was a winner for domestic consumption back home. There will be videos of him being received and with the pomp and pageantry that was due to -- that they gave to President Trump.
Listen, there was a deal cut when President Trump was last in China, on agriculture, on Boeing jets. Xi has yet to live up to that. So, let's see if that comes through.
I think there could be some -- I think the Trump administration is hoping for some concessions perhaps on tariffs that could go back and maybe an October surprise. I am sure that's what President Trump is hoping for. And I assure you, I know you just heard from the station chief and I am not going to go up against his analysis of the Chinese.
But if they were to just throttle back a bit in Iran, right and try to help resolve that, I think it could go a long way. So, you know, it is yet to be determined. Facially, Xi was the winner because he gets to go home and be on equal footing with the most powerful country in the world and we will see what is to be delivered yet by President Xi for President Trump.
COOPER: Randal, I mean, if the meeting is short on deliverables, why do you think the Chinese participated? What do you think Xi Jinping got out of it?
PHILLIPS: I think if you look at the scorecard here, Xi Jinping got everything he could have possibly hoped for out of this. I think David is absolutely right in pointing out for his domestic consumption, what he wants to show is that he is not only handling U.S. relations well, but is achieving what he has been seeking for about the past decade and that is what he calls a new model for great power relations or think of it as U.S. and China being equal and sort of putting the U.S. in a bit of a box to not pressure China in ways that we did in the past, he definitely got that.
He has got a party plenum coming up next month and then party congress next year, which will give him another five years. And he needs to be able to show great strength in handling this relationship and everything that the President did during this visit definitely feeds into that. So he is going home a happy man.
The U.S., as David said, the Chinese have not lived up to what they agreed to back in May, fully in terms of agricultural purchases, Boeing sales, et cetera. Let's hope that maybe downstream, we've got these two other meetings coming up later this year, maybe there will be meat on the bone here as we go forward, but as of right now, we don't have that.
[20:30:25]
We got two pandas and we got, you know, a promise of two more meetings. That's basically where we stand.
COOPER: Everybody loves pandas.
Randal Phillips, thank you --
PHILLIPS: Everybody loves pandas.
COOPER: Randal Phillips, thanks very much. David Urban as well, Leah Wright Rigueur as well.
Coming up next, new reporting and new details coming to light about OpenAI technology going rogue over the summer, this time involving federal government websites. That last night's White House dinner with OpenAI's Sam Altman and other tech CEOs and the question of whether self-regulation is now enough.
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JENSEN HUANG, NVIDIA CEO: If they're worried about it, they should just stop. If the product is not safe, just don't release it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Later, a new addition to the President's planned arch and why it is drawing fire tonight from Gold Star families. We'll be right back.
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[20:35:55]
COOPER: There is breaking news tonight on AI. It is, however, it's about OpenAI's Sam Altman. Here's headline in the New York Times, "OpenAI's Systems Went Rogue And Meddled With U.S. Government Websites." That subhead is even scarier. Quote, "The company did not learn until recently that its technology had meddled with sites for the Education Department, Commerce Department, and Securities and Exchange Commission."
According to the Times, this happened over the summer. OpenAI discovered it while conducting a review of other hacks, namely an attack on an Australian government website in June and, of course, on the AI firm Hugging Face in July, which was also an attack on OpenAI.
The Times reports that OpenAI technology tried hacking the Education Department's website to gather data from the department's civil rights office. Quoting now, "The AI also pulled data from the Census Bureau website, which is housed at the Commerce Department using login credentials that it found online. Separately, OpenAI's agent shared public data from the SEC website on an online forum."
And again, this is breaking just hours after the close of a summit involving the world's two AI leaders, the U.S. and China, with AI CEOs calling for federal regulation and warning that AI could destroy humanity, Sam Altman and Dario Amodei from Anthropic.
I asked NVIDIA CEO Jensen Huang, whose chips are essential to AI companies, about the calls for regulation from some of his peers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The people who are working closest, the people who are on the front lines of the frontier models, the frontier of this technology, they seem worried, whether it's researchers, engineers, or the CEOs, Dario Amodei, Sam Altman. They are raising alarms saying we need regulation. Aren't they the ones closest to these models who would know best about what is needed?
HUANG: If they're worried about it, they should just stop. If the product is not safe, just don't release it.
COOPER: It's that simple? I mean, these are multi-billion dollar companies. The competition --
HUANG: No, that's what every company does. That's what we do. That's what a car company would do. That's what a -- you know, anybody would do. If you're -- of course --
COOPER: But there's companies that have gone forward with products that, you know, are not safe or are risky, and they go forward anyway because of competition. That's why there's regulation.
HUANG: First of all, they ought to have self-restraint. If they're telling everybody that their product is unsafe, they obviously know it. They're publicly admitting it. They ought to just not release it, OK?
Now, having said that, I'm not advocating for no regulation. I'm just simply saying self-restraint does not require regulation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, joining us now is Republican Congressman Jay Obernolte. He's also the co-chair of the AI Caucus and has a master's degree in AI from UCLA.
Congressman, thanks for being here. You heard the New York Times reporting an OpenAI agent went rogue meddled with three separate government websites without their knowledge. Does this just reinforce warnings coming from a number of tech leaders? Where do you stand on this?
REP. JAY OBERNOLTE (R-CA), CO-CHAIR, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE CAUCUS: Well, these incidents are very concerning, Anderson, because they are another example of a loss of human control and a loss of awareness by these companies in testing these frontier models over what their models were doing. So computer scientists call this an alignment problem where the model's behavior was not aligned with our standards for human behavior.
And this is a perfect example where OpenAI, you know, was testing these models and asked them to do something pretty innocuous, ask them to gather information, which is something that is a usage that most of us would find, you know, very utilitarian out of a model. But no one told the model that it wasn't OK to break into non-public databases to get access to this information.
So that's an example of why we need to align the values that these models are trained on with human values. And if we can do that, we can get these models to conform to our standards for human behavior. It's also an example of why we need closer monitoring of the behavior of these models.
[20:40:06]
And the frontier developers like OpenAI have started doing this enhanced kind of monitoring called chain of thought monitoring. So what happens is you monitor the algorithm as it goes through its own reasoning process. And when it gets to the point where it says, oh, you know what, I'm going to break into this non-public database in Australia to get this information that's been requested, that's when an outside monitor, usually another AI algorithm, will step in and say, hey, wait, that's not OK.
So, I mean, we should be comforted by the fact that, you know, these were caught in testing. We should be comforted by the fact that in retrospect, we became aware of them. But it certainly illustrates the need for legislation like the bipartisan legislation that we have proposed in the FRONTIER Act, which includes things like mandatory safety incident reporting and whistleblower protections to make sure that we're getting this balance right between not over-regulating but still enacting the safety standards that Americans need.
COOPER: Well, I want to hear more about the safety standards that you think that are needed because, as you point out, with, you know, Hugging Face and a lot of these attacks, they are not found until weeks or months later. It's only, you know, with hindsight and over time, Hugging Face wasn't figured out until the company kind of realized it and notified OpenAI further down the road.
So what specifically do you want to see? Because, you know, folks from NVIDIA, Jensen Huang, is saying, you know, there are enough laws already in place, liability laws, et cetera, criminal laws, that should be enough to motivate CEOs and should be enough to kind of regulate the industry that if they do something wrong, there are a whole bunch of, you know, laws already in place. What more needs to happen?
OBERNOLTE: Well, what we're proposing in our bipartisan FRONTIER Act is to pair transparency with accountability. We think that every frontier developer ought to have a safety plan and ought to be transparent about what that plan is and open it up to the public for public scrutiny.
But we also want to pair that with accountability and require the large frontier developers to hire outside independent auditors to come in and verify that they are following their safety plan and verify that their safety plan is adequate to protect the public against catastrophic risks.
And we think that that's the right balance between providing real protections around a fast-moving and potentially dangerous technology, but also enabling innovation that allows the United States to continue to lead in AI and enables all of the positive benefits that AI is going to bring to our society and our economy to occur.
COOPER: It sounds close to what Dario Amodei is talking about when he talks about kind of on-site evaluators who have employee-level access. Is that similar?
OBERNOLTE: Well, it's similar in that we're requiring the frontier developers to create a safety plan and we're requiring them to participate in a mandatory safety incident reporting system so that government entities such as the Executive Branch and Congress are aware when these incidents like the loss of human control that recently occurred this summer, when those incidences are occurring.
And when you have that unified incident reporting system that's unified across a lot of different frontier developers, that would allow a regulator to have a broad view of what potential hazards are arising. But what we absolutely don't want is for one frontier developer to have a problem and try and sweep it under the rug. Not saying that's --
COOPER: Yes.
OBERNOLTE: -- what happened this time. I actually think that the companies are being pretty transparent about these incidents, but we want to make sure that that transparency continues.
COOPER: Yes. Congressman Obernolte, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Up next, why military families are raising concerns about President Trump's plan to arch. We'll be right back.
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20:48:03]
COOPER: Tonight, some Gold Star families and veterans are raising new concerns about the President's proposed arch near Arlington National Cemetery. The plans as they have now been proposed include an open-air observation deck for tourists, which was not part of the original design. The fear is it could turn otherwise solemn Arlington funerals into a spectacle, according to some of these families.
With us now is former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. He served in the U.S. Air Force in Afghanistan and Iraq, retired as lieutenant colonel in the Air National Guard.
So the Washington Post reported the Trump administration is ending a federal review of the arch project, which apparently it's allowed to do. Do you see any scenario in which the arch does not get built at this point? And what do you make of the possibility of an the settling (ph) an observation deck?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It doesn't seem like that they're going to stop. I mean, you know, short of, I guess, some court order coming in. But this is why you're seeing the President saying that it has some national security purpose now, because he did that with this ballroom. You know, that's what the whole drone port thing and everything is about is, when you say you have a national security impetus, then the courts usually hesitate to get involved.
So I think, look, it's probably a better than 50 percent chance, certainly, that this ends up getting built, at least started by the end of Trump's term. I don't think it survives the next President. And I think the thing people need to keep in mind is, first off, 250 feet is really big.
So I don't think the pictures, the drawings do this justice. But it is also, as you mentioned, in the shadow of Arlington, the whole thing about Arlington, it's supposed to be this kind of humble, silent, reflecting area, a place where you're supposed to kind of just be at peace without this big spectacle everywhere.
And it just feels offensive. And it feels offensive because Trump happily calls it, you know, the Arc de Trump.
COOPER: Yes. He said last weekend that it's now going to be this top grade military complex. So I'm not sure exactly what that means, that it's going to house, store and have the rapid ability to use large numbers of drones, plus snipers on both the roof and plaza areas, and additionally have and hold large quantities of sniper ammunition in storage.
Which -- I mean, I don't know that there's a shortage of places to store sniper ammunition or there's a need for a high perch for a -- I'm not sure -- I mean, I guess if attackers are coming over that bridge, but does it make sense to you that there needs to be a sniper position on top of this thing?
[20:50:35]
KINZINGER: Anderson, it would make sense 170 years ago in the Civil War when you were defending against an invasion by Robert E. Lee's forces. But other than that, maybe they should have built it then. Other than that, no, it doesn't make sense.
First off, a sniper is not going to sit 250 feet above the ground and see that as the best place to have a lookout. Secondly, what are you up against there? I mean, where's the threat? I mean, it's clearly ludicrous.
And I think everybody knows that. It's almost like whenever this President says things, we just kind of wait because we know it's not serious. And let's talk about the storage of sniper ammunition.
And for those that are unaware, he legitimately said storing sniper ammunition. You know, I know guns, a box of ammo is maybe this big. You know, you have to have a lot of ammo to need a 250-foot arch for storage. I mean, clearly what he's doing is trying to put a military flavor on this so that he can build an arch to himself. That's what he said.
COOPER: Yes.
KINZINGER: It's to him.
COOPER: Yes. Adam Kinzinger. Appreciate it. Thank you.
We'll be right back.
KINZINGER: You bet.
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[20:55:51] COOPER: We have news just breaking right now. We've just learned that the White House has barred CNN from traveling with the President on Air Force One tomorrow.
CNN's Alayna Treene joins us now with more. So Alayna, what's going on?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, so we just got what we call the daily guidance. It's essentially what the White House puts out every evening to give people a sense of who will be covering and traveling with the President the next day and what the events are. CNN is not listed.
And essentially what that means is that the White House is now preventing CNN from carrying out their TV pool duties for our viewers. The pool is essentially a group, at least the television pool, is a group of five networks, CNN, ABC, Fox News, NBC and CBS, that on any given day, one of the networks is represent -- is charged with representing all of the other networks. And whoever is filming the President, that footage is being used by everyone.
Now, CNN's role their day to be part of the pool and cover the President was tomorrow on Saturday. Now, that means our cameramen here would be at the White House early in the morning to cover the President's every movements. He is expected to travel to Knoxville, Tennessee. CNN would also be on the plane with him.
And what we're learning is we are not able to do that. Now, it's unclear -- I'd note that earlier in the week when it was clear -- last week, I should say, when the President had said that they were banning CNN, MS NOW and Politico from entering the White House and also stripping CNN of its pool duties, the other networks who are part of the pool, as I mentioned, Fox, NBC, ABC and CBS, said that they weren't going to be part of it either.
It's unclear what is going to happen to it now, though. For now, when you look at the schedule, it says two more Trump-friendly TV organizations. One is Lindell TV of Mike Lindell, a former -- a very close ally of the President. And then also Real America's Voice are expected to be the secondary pool for television.
So, look, it's unclear what this could actually mean. Obviously, a judge yesterday had ruled that CNN or on Wednesday, yesterday morning, just after 1:00 a.m., had ruled that CNN, MS NOW and Politico, Anderson, needed to have their badges and their access to the White House returned.
As you can see, I am talking to you right now from the White House. So we were allowed into the White House. But the question of the pool for CNN was a bit murkier.
We did hear our outside lawyer representing CNN, Politico and MS NOW did say earlier today that he believed the restoration of the outlet's access included the White House pool. But clearly, this White House is keeping us from doing so. So a new turn in this legal case. We'll have to see where it leads. COOPER: And is there any indication that they will take your press passes at this point? That will you still be granted access to the White House grounds? Is it just the pool? Do we know?
TREENE: As far as we know, they are allowing our access. I am currently inside the White House campus. Now, look, if I were to leave and come back in, I haven't tried that yet. Could they try to prevent us from coming in?
I don't think that's the case, given that they had announced yesterday and told the judge that they were allowing us back into the grounds. And we were able to get in yesterday around 12:30 p.m. So I think this is a separate question.
I think this is a question of allowing us to carry out our role as part of the pool to travel with the President to document his every movement. But we'll have to see. I mean, could this be another turn in the case where they try to prevent us? I'm not sure.
But for now, we are still -- you know, there's been no Secret Service agents coming to our little area inside the White House, Anderson, and escorting us off the premises. So for now, I believe --
COOPER: And do you know --
TREENE: -- we're still allowed here.
COOPER: Do you know is Politico and MS NOW also not on this trip?
TREENE: Yes. So look, Politico and MS NOW have different roles. Politico does serve as a print pool or on certain occasions. It's unclear what their status is within the pool. MS NOW a little bit different. They are not part of the major pool because it only --
COOPER: Right.
TREENE: -- has those five networks. So this isn't as much of an issue for them. But for CNN specifically, we know that they are definitely singling us out here.
COOPER: And when is the -- the trip is tomorrow, it leaves tomorrow morning?
TREENE: Yes. Tomorrow afternoon, the President is set to travel to Knoxville, Tennessee. We know that our camera crew, some of our great photojournalists here who work at the White House with us. One of our reporters was also supposed to be traveling with the President --
COOPER: Right.
TREENE: -- doesn't appear. Obviously, CNN is going to be part of that. They do have, I should note, the other poolers. You know, the pool is an only television. There are print --
COOPER: Yes.
TREENE: -- and radio crews that also travel with them. Those have remained the same.
COOPER: Right. We'll see.
TREENE: It shows that, you know, these different outlets are going. But --
COOPER: All right.
TREENE: -- yes, not us.
COOPER: Well, I want to hand it over to The Source right now with Jim Sciutto.
