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Amanpour

Shells Hit Gaza School Used as Shelter; Honduran President on U.S. Border Crisis; MH17: Australia Mourns; Imagine a World

Aired July 24, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight from Gaza to Ukraine to Central America, in war zones around the world, children are

paying the highest price with their lives. My interview with the president of Honduras as tens of thousands of his citizens flee to the United States.

JUAN HERNANDEZ, PRESIDENT OF HONDURAS (through translator): Who's going to want to see their child walking along, seeking his or her mother,

risking his or her life? We all want to be with our children, other human beings. Then they're the most vulnerable ones.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And later in the program, Australia's opposition leader on his country's MH17 loss.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

First, in Gaza, one child has been killed every hour according to the United Nations over the past week. And tonight the U.N. secretary-general

says he's appalled at the latest violence there. Several shells have struck a school which was being used as a United Nations shelter. It was

crowded with women and children fleeing the fighting. At last count, 16 were killed and more than 200 injured, according to Palestinian officials.

Both Israel and Hamas are blaming each other.

This is the tally so far from Operation Protective Edge; more than 700 Palestinians dead in Gaza. The vast majority civilian, 200 of them

children; 35 dead on the Israeli side, 32 of them soldiers.

With much of Gaza a war zone and the rest of that slim strip of land, of densely packed refugee camp for those trying to flee the bombardment,

how to protect the children.

John Ging is director of the U.N.'s office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs and he joins me now from New York.

Mr. Ging, welcome on this really terrible and bloody day. I'd like to ask you first about the victims of this shelling of the UNRWA shelter in

Beit Hanun. Can you confirm the number of dead and wounded? And can you tell me whether any U.N. personnel were killed or wounded there?

Yes, I can -- thank you, I can confirm the numbers are as you said at the moment but they're still coming in because obviously people are still

being evacuated to the hospitals and under treatment. It's a terrible tragedy and, yes, our own U.N. staff have been caught up in that tragedy

because they are obviously part of the effort in the school to help people in that shelter.

Now we have not yet been able to confirm here in New York if any of our staff had lost their lives. But we know that there's concern that a

number have been injured. But we're waiting for a confirmation on that.

AMANPOUR: And while you do, do you have any further clarity on what actually happened, as I said, both sides are blaming each other. Do you

know what led to the shelling of the school?

GING: Well, again, this school is in an area that has been caught up in this conflict. It's a very difficult situation for the families in that

area over the last period, because there's been so much violence in the area. And that's why they had fled to the school because they just could

no longer stay in their homes.

They just feared for their lives and they felt that the school, which is a U.N. school with U.N. markings and the references, the GPS references

of these locations are given to the Israeli authorities.

So they have very specific information about the location and people felt that that was a place that they would be safe and unfortunately it

turns out that that is not the case because of what has happened in the last hours.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you this, the Israelis have also complained about an incident over the last several days when rockets apparently were missing

or found in one of the UNRWA facilities. You know, and that leads people to say, well, hang on a second, what were they doing in there?

Do you -- first of all, you know, your answer to that. And secondly, do you think that bears some responsibility for the firing on these places?

GING: The storing of weapons which were found in and under a school is completely and utterly -- it's totally unacceptable and again it

violates these U.N. facilities in terms of the integrity of these facilities. So we condemn that and don't accept it any way under vigorous

in the U.N. in making sure that this doesn't happen. And when we find that it happens, then we deal with it immediately.

That's part of our challenge, of course, on the ground, is to keep the sanctity and the integrity of these facilities as they should be. Now it

does not in any way, shape or form, justify the shelling of a U.N. facility which is identified and notified as a refuge for over 1,000 people, mostly

women and children. Now when these facilities are being used as shelters for people who have fled, they're immediately notified to the -- to the

Israeli authorities that they're being used as such.

So, again, there's no connection between the two in terms of justifying or excusing the shelling of a facility.

AMANPOUR: John, do you know whether Hamas was firing from near that school in Beit Hanun and the subsidiary question, you say it's unacceptable

to have weapons, of course, in those schools.

How on Earth did they get into that school that we were just talking about?

GING: We have reports that, yes, that rockets were being fired from that -- from the -- that that general area, not from the school, I might

add, but from the general area. And that is the problem, isn't it, that this conflict is being conducted in a very densely populated city. And

again, it's the innocent people who find themselves trapped. They're caught between the crossfire. And that's why they flee and have fled in

this case their homes, seeking sanctuary in what was a well-marked and well-identified United Nations facility, where they thought that they would

be safe.

In terms of why militant groups would use a school, I mean, as I say, it's completely unacceptable. But that is also part of the dynamic of this

conflict that both sides are not respecting our facilities and in the case of that case that you refer to, the weapons were put in there by militants.

But again, we discovered them and quickly got them out of our location.

So, again, the vigilance of our colleagues on the ground is to be commended and that's what we would expect of them. We have no tolerance,

zero tolerance for the violation of our premises by anybody and we are very acutely aware of the consequences of that happening and therefore take

every precaution, including being very proactive in making sure that we are inspecting at all times, to ensure that our premises are free from any such

weapons or weaponry around people for that matter.

AMANPOUR: John Ging, thank you so much indeed for joining us tonight.

GING: Thank you.

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AMANPOUR: And the U.S. secretary general is also in the region, trying to mediate, trying to figure out how to get a cease-fire to stop

this slaughter and to end this war right now.

But of course it is children and tens of thousands of them who are the desperate victims of a Latin American wave of gang warfare and poverty.

And since October, 60,000 unaccompanied children have surged into the United States, their big, rich neighbor to the north.

But if they thought they'd find safety there after the treacherous trek, they were mistaken. They've been detained, put in overcrowded, ill-

equipped shelters or deported back to their crime-ridden countries. Most have come from Honduras, which today holds the dubious distinction of being

-- of having the world's highest murder rate.

In June, 32 children were killed there, which makes it about one a day. Now its new president, Juan Hernandez, is in Washington, where, along

with other Central American leaders, he'll be meeting with President Obama and he told me, "This is everyone's very vital problem and the U.S. needs

to do more."

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AMANPOUR: President Hernandez, welcome to the program.

HERNANDEZ (through translator): Thank you very much for having me, Christiane. A pleasure to greet you.

AMANPOUR: Can I start by asking you a very important question about the flow of Honduran civilians to the United States. We understand it is

slowing over the last several weeks. What have you specifically done to stop that process?

HERNANDEZ (through translator): Well, this problem got out of proportion from a year ago and this has surprised us. The causes are

multiple. One of them is the violence caused by drug trafficking, poverty of course, the lack of opportunities. But for us, this is an enormous

challenge.

AMANPOUR: What are you going to be saying to President Obama? What do you want from the U.S. president?

HERNANDEZ (through translator): First, I would like to explain to Washington, to President Obama, to legislators, to deciders and people with

power in decision in the Congress, in the Senate, to Washington leadership who are the leaders of the U.S., people of -- the United States people,

that the crime that comes from drugs, the violence, the lack of security in Central America has a cost for the United States. It's not a benefit. And

on the other hand, prosperity, a Central America with opportunities, a Central America in peace is a benefit to the United States and not a

liability.

In short, it's a crisis for Central America and it's a crisis for the U.S. So let's work together to solve it.

AMANPOUR: But you've been critical of the United States during this crisis.

What is your criticism? And what will you specifically be asking for?

HERNANDEZ (through translator): Well, I have not even been in power for six months, Christiane. But I've studied the problem that we have in

Central America. When the United States and Colombia worked to combat drugs and then Mexico in the U.S. work together, the heads of the drug

traffic operation went to Central America. This has brought us terrible problems.

Never before in the history of our country have we seen so many deaths as in the recent decades. So we want to work together to look at the roots

of the problem generating opportunities for economic growth, health opportunities, education opportunities, take care of the security issues.

And that way security issues, peace, prosperity for Central America will also be in -- of enormous benefit to the U.S.

And we want to work together in partnership. That's what it's about.

AMANPOUR: You've mentioned that the drug wars in Colombia, the drug wars in Mexico are -- have pushed the drug traders, the drug traffickers to

your region.

Is that -- is that your assessment?

HERNANDEZ (through translator): That's one of the main reasons the drug trafficking generates violence, lack of opportunities and emigration.

Honduras is working hard in the war against drugs. We're working hard to generate opportunities. But we're also working as never before to receive

our immigrants but also asking the United States that in the case of the children, the interests of the children should prevail. Their

reunification, their reunion with their families, they're human beings, Christiane. They're human beings who are vulnerable. They are not

criminals.

AMANPOUR: What do you think should happen to the children who do manage to reach the United States?

HERNANDEZ (through translator): I have been requesting and will continue to request respect for the primary interests of the children,

their basic interests. But if a family comes that has no other family members in the U.S. and the law doesn't protect them, then our duty is to

receive them on their return to Honduras.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, you have taken measures to stop the flow, to slow the flow of these children. You have, I think, ordered that bus

tickets should not be sold to minors. And you've put special police on the bus routes and at the border.

Is that correct?

HERNANDEZ (through translator): It's correct, Christiane. We have set in motion a media campaign at our own cost, at our own expense. I

believe all Hondurans, all Central Americans must know what they're exposed to. Young girls, 13-year olds, the coyotes are human smugglers. Give them

birth control pills because most of them are going to be sexually abused.

We've organized this campaign. We have closed previous immigration institutions and created a new institution. We've also captured and put in

a network of human smugglers and have also imprisoned people related to them from their positions in the state.

AMANPOUR: And finally, you are a military man and you have spoken about trying to bring security, including, quote, "having a police on every

corner." As you very well know, the United States has suspended some of its aid over the last several months. It views some of the policies as

overly aggressive.

Are you concerned that your stepped-up security could itself have a negative effect and cause, in fact, more deaths, more fighting?

HERNANDEZ (through translator): Well, Christiane, we have experiences with this across the Americas. On the one hand, we need to purge the

civilian police force. We need help from the armed forces in the struggle against violence because there are bands. These are armed -- these are --

the drug traffickers are organizing as armies. They have power beyond what a police unit would have.

We also need to purge prosecutors, judges and we're moving forward on that.

On the other hand, we have to prevent violence. I believe in schools, the culture of peace, ethical values, spiritual values. That's why we're

working very closely with the churches. It's not enough to crack down on crime. But there are places where the government has to recover its

authority.

I know we're going to find support in the U.S. because they have already been successful in Mexico and in Colombia. But this success was a

problem for Honduras. Now we have to work together. Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Mexico and the U.S.

AMANPOUR: President Hernandez of Honduras, thank you very much indeed for joining us today.

HERNANDEZ: Thank you. Thank you very much.

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AMANPOUR: Now amidst this humanitarian crisis, humanity itself suffered another slap in the face in the border state of Arizona. Joseph

Wood, who was convicted of double homicide in 1989, was point to death yesterday, 25 years later, with all appeals exhausted. Only death by

lethal injection didn't come for two excruciating hours.

Joseph Wood gasped for breath, we're told, like a fish out of water until he was finally pronounced dead. This has caused outrage around the

world, of course, where the death penalty has been abolished, especially because it was the latest in a series of botches U.S. executions.

Many blame a new so-called lethal cocktail, which has been made necessary by European manufacturers who are withholding the traditional

execution drugs on moral grounds.

After a break, among the victims of Flight MH17 were dozens of Australians on their way to Melbourne. They have yet to come home to their

families, to a somber nation moved to tears and demanding answers. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Eighty children were among the 298 victims of Flight MH17. As more bodies arrive in the Netherlands

and DNA testing gets underway, there is mounting outrage that a week after the plane was shot down, the site is still not properly and officially

secured.

The Australian prime minister, Tony Abbott, has now deployed police -- about 50 -- to help do that; 38 Australians were among the dead. And we

spoke to the opposition leader, Bill Shorten, from New York, where he's on a visit.

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AMANPOUR: Bill Shorten, welcome to the program.

BILL SHORTEN, AUSTRALIAN OPPOSITION LEADER: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: I have to ask you, of course, the tragedy of the shooting down of this plane, Australia lost more than 2 dozen of its own citizens

there. And I know the prime minister has launched now Operation Bring Them Home.

Are you confident that the remains will be repatriated in any quick fashion?

SHORTEN: This is a heartbreaking disaster for many Australian families. We're working very closely with other nations. We're grateful

for the unanimous support of the United Nations Security Council, calling for a free and transparent investigation.

The number one priority of Australia is to bring home -- is to identify the remains and bring home bodies to Australia.

AMANPOUR: I do want to read to you something that your own prime minister has said. He spoke to President Putin.

He says President Putin has said all the right things, but he needs now to do the right things. And he said that the crash site is still being

controlled by the very separatists, who are being blamed for shooting this plane down with your citizens on it.

What is your opinion on what it's going to take to get President Putin to cooperate to the fullest?

SHORTEN: Well, the prime minister's right. On this matter, there is no internal political debate in Australia. We're united in our grief. And

we're united to get to the bottom of what's happened.

The U.N. Security Council resolution's important. The Russian Federation are making all the right noises. Between passing a resolution

and actually acting on it, there's a great deal of detail and effort to go in.

We think that it's important that the international community stands up and expresses its complete condemnation for the shooting down of an

innocent civilian jetliner.

And we think that international pressure and the Russian Federation explaining to the separatists in Eastern Ukraine that this is -- this

shooting down, this murder of 300 innocent souls, is completely beyond the pale of civilized conduct.

AMANPOUR: We have to bring up MH370, which Australia is also involved in, still trying to search for that. Angus Houston has now been dispatched

to deal with the crime site in Ukraine, is also head of the MH370 search.

Is that going to stop or slow down the search for that one?

SHORTEN: Not at all. The search in the Indian Ocean, as you can well imagine, is an incredibly difficult process.

Again, and my first thoughts are with the families, just not knowing and not being able to recover the bodies of loved ones, not having that

closure. It's a fundamental stage in grieving.

That's why, in the case of MH17, we want to see the victims identified. We want to see their bodies brought home. And then we need to

have the investigation to bring people to account for this murderous act.

AMANPOUR: On that note, Bill Shorten, leader of the opposition in Australia, thank you so much indeed for joining me today.

SHORTEN: It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

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AMANPOUR: And just a note: Bill Shorten is in New York on a visit to tackle climate change, where he's warning that his government's policies

risk isolating Australia. And you can hear what he had to say online at amanpour.com.

And after a break, how do the powerless counter the inflated egos of the powerful? With a giant inflatable toad perhaps? That story when we

come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, whether it be on the charred fields of Ukraine, in Russia or on the burnt-out streets of Israel and Gaza,

governments keep trying to control the message. Now imagine a world where a toad has taken on the toadies of government propaganda.

Last week, Beijing residents woke up to the amusing prospect of a giant inflatable toad floating on a lake due west of Tiananmen Square. But

when the toad went viral, the Chinese government was not amused and reportedly clamped down on social media because people likened the toad to

China's ex-president, Jiang Zemin.

The giant amphibian is just the latest in China's love affair with huge inflatable animals. Last year a giant rubber duck made a magical

appearance on China's waterways and became an overnight sensation until it was mysteriously deflated and disappeared.

Now the golden toad hopes to do one better. It's got a reprieve until August 20th. It seems that even in the most controlling of countries,

people, yes, and rubber duckies can still have the last word.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Twitter and

Facebook. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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