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The Battle Against ISIS; Russia and the West; Imagine a World

Aired August 06, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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FRED PLEITGEN, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the desperate battle against ISIS in Iraq as Kurdish fighters launch a counterattack. I speak

live with the region's foreign minister.

Plus with violence and insecurity gripping so many places, has the West abandoned its global leadership role? I'll debate that with a top defense

analyst.

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PLEITGEN (voice-over): Good evening, everyone, and welcome, I'm Fred Pleitgen, sitting in for Christiane this week.

While much of the world's attention has recently been focused on Gaza, the extremist group ISIS has been sweeping across Northern Iraq. Over the

weekend, ISIS forces captured a string of towns controlled by Kurdish Peshmerga fighters. That's a massive blow because the Peshmerga were seen

as the only force capable of confronting ISIS after the Iraqi army collapsed in June.

Among the towns captured was Sinjar, home to many Yazidi, a small religious sect, whose members are particular targets for ISIS. Thousands of people

fled, many into nearby mountains, where they're now stranded and surrounded by the extremists with barely any supplies. They face starvation and

dehydration and a Yazidi member of Iraq's parliament begged for help on their behalf.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (from captions): Now the Yazidi people are being killed. Brothers, let's put our political differences aside and work

together as human beings. In the name of humanity, come to our rescue, come to our rescue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: An emotional plea, as you can see there. And UNICEF reports that 40 children have already died.

Now today Kurdish forces launched a counteroffensive to push ISIS back. And for the first time, Iraq's prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki has ordered

the Iraqi military to support the Kurds.

But many see Maliki's policies as part of the problem and want him to step down. Maliki rejected that in the strongest terms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NOURI AL-MALIKI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Officials in the new Iraq should not take into consideration any interference or blame

when building the new Iraq. Rather they should abide by the constitution alone because any break in the constitutional context will open the gates

of hell on Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Now some may say the gates of hell were already open when ISIS marched into Iraq back in June. And now fighting between ISIS and the

Kurds is taking place only 25 miles from Kurdistan's capital, Erbil. An extremely troubling development for my next guest, Kurdistan's foreign

minister, Falah Mustafa Bakir, who joins me now and of course, he is in Erbil as we've just noted.

Sir, thank you very much for being on the program and the first thing I have to ask is do you have any updates from the battlefield? Are your

fighters making advances?

FALAH MUSTAFA BAKIR, KURDISH REGIONAL GOVERNMENT FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, thank you. Indeed, the Kurdish forces, until two days ago, they went on

the defensive in order to defend the people of Kurdistan region and the region itself from the terrorism of ISIS. But we have changed that into

being on the offensive. But the point is that we are left alone in the front to fight the terrorists of ISIS.

And there is disparity in the weaponry that the ISIS have and the ones that Kurdish forces have. We have made some progress and we will continue. We

are determined in order to take all the area that have been taken by ISIS back. But we need support and that support will be in the way of

airstrikes. But also the weapons and munition and on the other hand we need humanitarian assistance for those people who have been caught on Mount

Sinjar.

PLEITGEN: When you're asking for airstrikes, I presume you're talking about airstrikes from the U.S. And you're talking about military support

from the United States as well.

What's in the making there? How has the United States reacting to that?

BAKIR: Well, it's unfortunate. Until this moment, we are fighting back alone except for the limited assistance that was given in the last couple

of (INAUDIBLE) the Iraqi armed forces. But this is something way beyond the capacity of the Iraqi armed forces. We need to United States and NATO

to interfere because we are fighting on behalf of all those who are against terrorism.

If you look at the membership of ISIS, there are members who are from the United States, from Germany, from the U.K., from France, Italy, all sorts

of countries, the external international organizations. Therefore it's a shared responsibility on all of us to fight the back. It's not the sole

responsibility of the Kurdish forces.

We are determined to continue that path. But we (INAUDIBLE) more capable in doing that with the support of the international community and I believe

the United States has a moral responsibility to support us, because this is a fight against terrorism and we have proven to be pro-democracy, pro-West

and pro-secularism.

PELOSI: Not on the one hand you're saying that you're alone in -- on the front lines, fighting against these extremists. On the other hand, you do

acknowledge that the Iraqi military has been bombing ISIS as well.

Is that a sign that perhaps there could be longer-term cooperation between your forces and the Iraqi military?

Or is that sort of more a one-off thing in the face of this big threat right now?

BAKIR: We have to be realistic. The Iraqi forces collapsed during the advance in Mosul. Therefore the air forces have limited capacity. We

appreciate that. But this is not meeting our expectation. It cannot be done only by the Iraqi forces. Therefore, the United States, NATO and

other allies who are against terrorism, this is time for action. We have listened to support the -- our experience, supporting us. But this is now

time for action to immediate assistance to be provided, to put political differences aside, to put other bureaucracy aside and be determined to

function on the ground to help and support the Kurdish Peshmerga forces.

PLEITGEN: What's the reaction from the Iraqi government to that?

Are they willing to work with you?

What are they saying?

BAKIR: Well, I believe in the last couple of days there has been some coordination. We are ready for cooperation because ISIS and terrorism,

this is a threat against all of us, not only Kurdistan and Iraq, the rest of the neighborhood. This is a terrorist organization that have declared

the war on all those who are against them. So therefore it's not only the responsibility of Kurdistan. If we are not able to stop them here, they

would continue and pose a threat to other countries as well.

PLEITGEN: One of the things --

(CROSSTALK)

BAKIR: We believe this is a good opportunity for us and Baghdad to cooperate but as I said, we need the United States. We need NATO to be

involved in order to be able to achieve bigger successes on these terrorist forces.

PLEITGEN: Sir, one of the things I think is mind-boggling to a lot of people who are observing this is that you have an extremist organization

that manages to route all of the other rebel groups in Syria and at the same time pressure the Kurdish forces that you have and the Iraqi military.

Give us a sense of what these fighters are like, how well-equipped are they, how proficient are they at fighting, how are they able to put so much

pressure on such a large region?

BAKIR: Well, we have to be honest about the situation on the ground. Before the withdrawal of the U.S. troops in Iraq, there was a American

division on the ground in this -- on this line. We have a border that is 1,035 kilometers long that we shared with this neighbor, which is a

terrorist organization.

So at that time, this 1,050 kilometers of water were protected by Kurdish Peshmerga forces, the U.S. troops there and six divisions of the Iraqi

army. The U.S. troops have left. The six Iraqi divisions have disappeared. Now it's only the Peshmerga forces facing these terrorist

groups who have captured all these advanced and sophisticated weaponry from the Iraqi army and the irony is that we are using outdated Russian weapons

and the terrorists are using sophisticated advanced and medical weapons against us.

PLEITGEN: Are you disappointed in the way that the Obama administration is handling all this? Because there aren't many people who say that the

president and the administration are more interested in keeping American out of Iraq than in helping in this situation?

Sir, can you still here me? Can you still hear me?

OK. It looks like we've lost contact with the foreign minister there. But we'll certainly try and reestablish that again maybe later in this show.

But meanwhile we'll move on and while ISIS runs roughshod over Iraq, it hasn't spared the history and the culture of the city of Mosul. Once known

as Nineveh, it's where the Bible says Jonah warned the people of the wrath of God. They listened, and the city was spared.

Not so the tomb of Jonah, which stood for centuries until ISIS did this to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: It's appalling and it's one more act of wanton destruction by militant extremists, the same intolerance that blew up the monumental

Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanistan and destroyed the ancient shrines and tombs of Timbuktu.

And after a break, is no one willing to stand up to the wave of violence from Iraq to Syria to Ukraine? I'll ask a journalist who's been on the

battle lines. Is it time to lead, follow or get out of the way?

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PLEITGEN: And welcome back. From Russia and Ukraine to Israel and Gaza, to Libya and South Sudan, are the crises in these countries the direct

result of a world without strong Western leadership? Just a moment ago, we already talked about the deteriorating situation in Iraq and in neighboring

Syria, ISIS is gaining ground as well.

Meanwhile President Bashar al-Assad also feels emboldened by the lack of any response to his actions. Right now there's only a shaky truce between

Israel and Hamas brokered largely without American involvement.

And in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin shows no signs of backing down.

So where is the U.S.? Where's Europe? They seem to be doing their best to minimize involvement in these conflicts. Here to talk about this is Con

Coughlin. He's the defense editor for "The Daily Telegraph" and joins me now.

Sir, thank you very much for being on the program. And we have to delve right into it. There's so much turmoil going on in the world right now.

Is the West contributing to all that by shunning a leadership role?

CON COUGHLIN, DEFENCE EDITOR, "THE DAILY TELEGRAPH": Well, I think if you go back to the roots of a lot of these crises, you could say. I mean, if

you go to Libya, we got rid of Gadhafi three years ago. But then basically went back to where we didn't help basically to rebuild with the result that

the American embassy, the British embassy and many other embassies have now been evacuated and it's not safe for Westerners to be there.

So that's Libya.

Then you go onto Syria; the failure to take action last year when the Assad regime was using chemical weapons, I think a lot of people in the region

basically said the West is not going to get involved and so you move onto Iraq. We've just been talking about Iraq and the growth of ISIS. And,

again, people look at the Iraqi issue. They think we withdrew in 2011, as your previous guest, Foreign Minister Bakir was saying. You know, there

were several divisions of American troops there just three years ago. There are none now. And Iraq is left to its own devices. And I think --

PLEITGEN: And we haven't even started talking about Afghanistan, for instance --

COUGHLIN: Well, quite.

PLEITGEN: -- you've just come back from --

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: -- here that Afghanistan could go a similar way once ISAF leaves there.

COUGHLIN: Well, I think there is a possibility that -- and I wouldn't put it any stronger than that -- that if we don't get our act together on

Afghanistan, Afghanistan could go the same way as Iraq. At the moment, you know, we're waiting for new -- the Afghan president to take office. When

that new president is there within these negotiate a deal to see whether we can take America and other NATO troops in Afghanistan to support them in

their transition phase.

Now we had similar negotiations with Iraq with American government three years ago. They proved difficult and my reading of it is that the Obama

administration basically said they'd had enough of Iraq, that it was a -- it was a previous administration's campaign. They wanted to wash their

hands of it. And of course, that lent encouragement to terrorist groups like ISIS, who see that the West is not going to get involved. So they can

come in and try and challenge Baghdad and the other cities you've been talking about.

PLEITGEN: What do you think the problem is?

Is it weak politicians? Is it publics that are sick of foreign engagements?

Is it other parts of the world that are rising, like, for instance, Turkey, for instance, Qatar taking on new roles? What's going on?

COUGHLIN: Of course I certainly think there is public apathy, both in America and in Europe, for further military entanglements, particularly in

the Middle East. They look at the Iraq campaign and all the money spent there; the Afghan campaign has now cost more than the Marshall Plan the

Americans implemented to try and keep Germany alive after the Second World War. A lot of people think we've spent a lot of effort, a lot of money on

these places. And why can't they get their act together? Why do we always have to get involved?

And I think the politicians are reflecting that mood. The problem is, and then we move onto Ukraine, and you've got people like Vladimir Putin in

Moscow thinking, well, the West is not going to get involved, so I can just go marching into Ukraine. And suddenly a very important red line is about

territorial integrity across -- and suddenly the West finds that it has to do something about it.

PLEITGEN: It's interesting that you mentioned Vladimir Putin in the situation in Ukraine, because just a couple of minutes ago, we got word

that the Dutch are suspending their mission at the MH17 crash site because it's become too dangerous because of the fighting that's been going on

between the rebels and the -- and the Ukrainian forces.

Is there a danger that the Russians are going to move into Ukraine? Because many believe that with the Russians calling for a U.N. meeting on

this topic, that perhaps they'll use that as a pretexts to go in under some sort of peacekeeping mandate or something.

COUGHLIN: Well, just this afternoon, I was looking at the figures of Russian troops now massing on the border. You'll remember a couple of

months ago there were 40,000 Russian troops on the border. We've put some sanctions on Moscow and the Russians backed off.

We've now put further sanctions on Moscow and it seems that Putin is reacting by putting more Russian troops on the Ukrainian border further or

-- furthermore, I should say, the Ukrainian forces are now making significant gains against the rebels. It's been a lot of serious fighting

recently. And I think what Moscow and Putin have decided, they cannot abandon the pro-Russian separatists. And they're going to come to their

aid.

So this could get very dangerous very quickly.

PLEITGEN: So what's the West supposed to do about it? There are some people who say that the only way to confront Vladimir Putin is by strength,

by showing strength.

There's others, for instance, the Germans who seem to be more for negotiations, for talks, who believe they have different sort of inroads.

What can the West do?

COUGHLIN: Well, Fred, the key thing about the Germans is 30 percent their energy comes from Russia. That is their fundamental problem. So Angela

Merkel is trying to avoid confrontation at all costs; I think there are 7,000 German businesses operating Russia today. So they also have enormous

business interests.

But the problem is we cannot allow in the 21st century countries like Russia to bully their neighbors, invade their sovereign integrity and

things like that. And I don't think we are going to provide military support to Ukraine. But we are certainly going to see further sanctions.

And the international isolation of Russia. I wrote in a recent blog for "The Telegraph" that if the Russians aren't careful, they will become the

new Iran, completely isolated from the international community.

PLEITGEN: But does Putin care about that? Because I mean today he announced countersanctions against the West, that those sanctions have

consistently been ramped up. And it seems to not be deterring them at all. They've announced that they're going to increase their armed forces. They

announced new maneuvers, some of them, as you said, on the western fringes with Ukraine.

So is that something -- is sanctions something that will deter anyone?

COUGHLIN: Well, I keep saying that the Russians need the West more than the West needs the Russians. And this is particularly true in the economic

sphere. If we really hit them hard with sanctions, the Russian economy will collapse. It's as simple as that. The ruble's already in decline;

interests rates are soaring in Russia. There's a flight of foreign capital.

PLEITGEN: Putin has approval ratings of up to 80 percent --

(CROSSTALK)

COUGHLIN: Well, quite --

PLEITGEN: -- (INAUDIBLE).

COUGHLIN: And if you go back to other dictators, so people like Saddam Hussein has approval ratings of 90 percent. Remember, there's no free

media in Russia. There's no freedom of the press. There's no freedom of speech. So all the Russians get is Putin propaganda. So it's no surprise

that 80 percent of them support Putin, because he's just saying it's the West ganging up on us; it's NATO ganging up on us. It's the E.U., the

Americans and Mother Russia needs to stand firm.

PLEITGEN: So how do you diffuse the situation? And if you're saying that, you know, they're being fed propaganda by the Putin government, at the same

time, the West will not go into any sort of military mode to save Ukraine, how do you stop them?

COUGHLIN: Well, David Cameron recently drew parallels between what Putin is doing in Ukraine and what Hitler did in Czechoslovakia. And I think the

big tragedy of the 1930s is the West because of the legacy of the First World War, did not want another war and so appeased Hitler. And I think we

need to be very careful about repeating that mistake.

PLEITGEN: So you are saying that peace in Europe, 100 years after the beginning of World War I, is not something that should be taken for

granted?

COUGHLIN: I'm saying that precisely. And I think this is something -- there's a big NATO summit in Wales in September. I think NATO leaders need

to wake up to the fact that they can't run away from these problems. They need to show resolve. And for example the British army was shortly with

the Americans. They conducted military exercises in Poland. That's the furthest ever American and British tanks have been east in the -- in

history.

That is going to send a clear message to Putin that the West does have resolve, both on the economic front and militarily. I'm not saying we

would go to war with Russia, but I think we would stand our ground. And that is the only way we can really deal with Putin at the moment.

PLEITGEN: Really quick, because we don't have very much time left.

Do you think that President Obama is someone who will see all of this through? Is he someone who will take a hard line against Russia?

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: -- focused on different things.

COUGHLIN: Well, he is. But I'm -- I applaud President Obama for his stand on Russia, actually. He alone, of all the Western leaders, perhaps some

people in London, here as well, have been very robust with Putin since the Crimean crisis. He hasn't shown the same kind of leadership in the Middle

East with the recent crisis in Gaza, with Libya, with Syria, with Iraq. but if he can -- if he can show this resolve in Russia, then perhaps

there's hope that he can be similarly focused on other global security threats.

PLEITGEN: Con Coughlin, thank you very much for being on the program, always good to have your insights --

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: -- thank you very much.

COUGHLIN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: And while some may think the West is sitting on its hands, imagine a time just five decades ago when President John F. Kennedy issued

this challenge at his inauguration.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN F. KENNEDY, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let every nation know whether it wishes us well or ill that we shall pay any price, bear any

burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

(APPLAUSE)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Now imagine if JFK had never lived up to -- lived to say these words. It almost happened. That incredible story when we

come back.

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PLEITGEN: And again, another final thought tonight imagine a world where a simple coconut and two brave souls helped save the life of a future U.S.

president.

In the predawn hours of August 2nd in 1943, as the Second World War raged in the Pacific, a Japanese destroyer rammed and sank an American torpedo

boat called PT-109.

A young Naval officer, Lt. John F. Kennedy, was in command. And he and the rest of his crew were thrown into the water. Two were killed and the rest

made a 3.5-mile swim to a tiny island. By some accounts, JFK, a member of the Harvard swim team, towed one of his crewmen by clutching the strap of

his life jacket between his teeth.

When they got on shore, they lived off coconuts and then made an even more difficult swim to a larger island, where JFK and another crew member went

searching for food.

By a stroke of luck, they encountered two islanders, Eroni Kumana and Biuka Gasa, who were among the Allied scouts who helped keep watch on the

Japanese.

Because the scouts didn't speak any English, Kennedy carved a message into a coconut. And the scouts risked their own lives to deliver it, making it

possible for JFK and his crew to be rescued.

Of course we know Kennedy became a war hero and followed a trajectory that would take him all the way to the White House. And there that same coconut

became the prized paperweight on the presidential desk.

Last week, Eroni Kumana died at the age of 93. And now unlike JFK, he will have no grave of honor at Arlington Cemetery, but his courage and his

coconut will never be forgotten.

And that's it for tonight. And remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Twitter @FPleitgenCNN. Thank you

so much for watching and goodbye from London.

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