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Amanpour
Facing a Cascade of Crises; Who is Afghanistan's Next President?; Imagine a World
Aired August 25, 2014 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, as ISIS gains more ground and spills more blood in Syria, was this a prophesy foretold?
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AMANPOUR: What is the plan B? What will be the absolute solution to stopping this carnage?
BAN KI-MOON, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL (voice-over): At this time, we don't have any plan B.
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AMANPOUR (voice-over): That was the U.N. secretary-general two years ago. Tonight I ask him what is the plan now to save the Middle East?
Plus saving Afghanistan from the Middle East spate (ph). I speak to Washington's man in Kabul.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
The guns of August are firing on all cylinders, posing some of the toughest challenges to global security and civilization in 100 years. In Syria, the
extremist group ISIS is celebrating its capture of a military airbase, cementing its control of Raqqa province and solidifying its self-declared
Islamic State in Syria and Iraq. And in a grisly replay of Iraq's brutal sectarian war of a decade ago, Iraq's Sunnis and Shiites are bombing each
others' mosques and dozens have been killed over this past weekend.
The shaky cease-fire in Gaza has broken down and the blood there is flowing again after 50 days of war. The United Nations says the devastation in
Gaza is three times worse than it was during the last war five years ago.
And Europe hovers on the brink of full-scale conflict between Ukraine and Russia.
Now the United States was born from the ashes of World War II and after decades of wars, both hot and cold, can it today bring order to a world of
collapsing borders and viral anarchy? That's the question I posed to Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who joined me from U.N. headquarters in New
York.
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AMANPOUR: Secretary-General, welcome to the program.
KI-MOON: Thank you. Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: It seems, Mr. Secretary-General, that everywhere we look, there are horrendous messes, in Iraq and Syria, for instance, now we hear that
ISIS has captured a strategic military base. We're told from London that it now controls territory the size of Great Britain with 4 million people
in that territory.
Can this stand unchecked?
Or does it have to be rolled back?
KI-MOON: Now, the world is confronting much of the crisis at this time, starting from the situation in Iraq and we have a very serious crisis in
Ukraine, but we still have a crisis in Libya, South Sudan, Central African Republic.
On top of this we are now being hit by Ebola epidemics. All this require concerted efforts of the international community. The United Nations is
really trying to mobilize all resources, all political will.
Now coming back to this current situations which is happening in Iraq and particularly in Northern Iraq, Erbil area, it's totally unacceptable and
horrendous situations caused by Islamic State, ISIL, just international community must really be united; take all necessary actions.
At this time we have millions of displaced people in that area.
AMANPOUR: I hear your plea that you're making; you're obviously very stretched for resources and you've described a huge number of challenges.
But clearly the humanitarian situation will continue to get worse, particularly in Iraq and Syria if ISIS is not pushed back.
What do you think the world needs to do to confront ISIS and to roll back the territory that it has gained?
KI-MOON: The United Nations cannot do it alone in addressing international terrorism and extremists. The way they have been terrorizing the
international community and people by kidnapping the women, children and the particularly journalists, this is totally unacceptable. These are
against the international humanitarian law and against international human rights law.
And we saw this horrendous killing of Mr. James Foley. That we have condemned in the strongest possible terms.
At the same time, United Nations played a certain role in getting Mr. Curtis - Peter Theo Curtis -- to be released through U.N. at this handoff
(ph) yesterday in Golan Heights.
And I really appreciate the countries who have been really helping to facilitate. And I understand that President Obama is going to convene a
certain summit level meeting next month on the margins of General Assembly at the United Nations to deal with this matter.
We need, first of all, political will, combined solidarity and political will, and provide all necessary resources possible.
AMANPOUR: You know, you talk about political will and this has been obviously in great, great shortage for many, many years, particularly with
the crisis in Syria.
You remember two years ago I asked you in the midst of some failed U.N.- sponsored political negotiations, what is plan B for Syria?
And you told me very honestly there is no plan B.
Would you agree that the rise of ISIS and the horrors that you're just describing are a result of there being no plan B?
KI-MOON: There's a continuing Syrian crisis that has caused all other extremists and terrorist groups to get their roots established. That is
quite worrisome.
That is why I have always been urging that number one priority should be that the parties must stop the violence unconditionally and return to a
political dialogue table.
As you know the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, has announced last week that number of people killed since the beginning of
this Syrian crisis has reached close to 200,000.
AMANPOUR: Right.
KI-MOON: And these are all confirmed deaths. But including -- if we include unconfirmed deaths, the number will be much, much higher.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, because you mentioned Navi Pillay. And she actually also said at the Security Council that it was the political
paralysis that has emboldened what she called these killers.
Listen to what she said about the world community's failure in this regard.
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NAVI PILLAY, U.N. HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS: Short-term geopolitical considerations and national interests, narrowly defined, have
repeatedly taken precedence over intolerable human suffering and grave breaches of -- and long-term threats to -- international peace and
security.
I firmly believe that greater responsiveness by this council would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
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AMANPOUR: Do you agree, Mr. Secretary-general, with her harsh assessment?
KI-MOON: I fully agree with what Navi Pillay just said at the Security Council. I also did say almost the same things.
We have sent some very encouraging, successful -- example: when United Nations Security Council is ignited, they can deliver very quickly, very
effectively anything like as we have seen, the destruction of Syrian chemical weapons. We have destroyed all registered chemical weapons in
Syria.
Now we are in the process of trying to destroy the chemical weapon producing facilities. Therefore, the real political will and agreement and
consensus view of Security Council, particularly between the United States and the Russia, is crucially important. I again urge the Security
Council's strong political will on the base of solidarity and humanity.
AMANPOUR: Let me turn to Israel and Gaza. That continues to be a very active and very hot war, even today. And you know, you have used some
very, very strong language to condemn particularly strikes against U.N. schools in the Gaza Strip that have killed several people.
You have called it a moral outrage and a criminal act.
How do you plan to hold Israel accountable and Hamas accountable for its actions?
KI-MOON: The catastrophic tragedy which happened in Gaza is again totally unacceptable. I think these are all violation of international
humanitarian laws and I have condemned in the strongest possible terms the killing of civilians and people and children and women and destruction of
infrastructures.
The -- we have to address the root causes. There are many issues which have already been identified by the parties.
What are the problems? I have been urging that all these issues must be resolved through political negotiation.
And if we are concerned and disappointed that this even fragile cease-fire has not been kept, it has been broken again, all these key actors must
unite on the political will. They go back to Cairo and agree on a more durable, sustainable cease-fire.
AMANPOUR: OK.
KI-MOON: On the basis of that, we have to reconstruct Gaza and we have to investigate all these violations of international human rights and
humanitarian laws, including the attack on U.N. staff and U.N. facilities.
AMANPOUR: Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, thank you very much for joining me tonight.
KI-MOON: Thank you very much. Thank you.
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AMANPOUR: And the spread of ISIS wannabes isn't limited to Syria and Iraq. The leader of Boko Haram has now declared that a town in northeast Nigeria
seized earlier this month is part of an Islamic caliphate. Abubakar Shekau, who had voiced his support for ISIS, issued a video over the
weekend claiming control of the town of Gwoza, despite denials by the Nigerian military.
Now here's the same man who took to YouTube back in May, claiming responsibility for the abduction of about 200 Nigerian schoolgirls. And
four months later, they are still missing.
After a break, we'll turn to a country that's been holding free elections and training to take on the mother of all militant movements, Al Qaeda, for
the past 10 years. A guarantee of success? In Afghanistan, nothing is guaranteed. A nation on edge and on the brink when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Now if the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria gives you the creeps, spare a thought for Afghanistan. Unless it
extracts itself from its latest fling with political paralysis, extremism could win there, too.
Afghanistan was meant to have a new president by now and a future on the road to democracy. But every single vote is still being recounted after
all sides acknowledge fraud in the June runoff election. President Obama has called the two candidates, Abdullah Abdullah and Ashraf Ghani, and
pressured them to quickly finalize a deal on a unity government.
With the very fate of a nation in the balance, I spoke to U.S. Ambassador James Cunningham, who's in the thick of the negotiations in Kabul. And he
tells me that progress is being made and with herculean effort from all sides, a new Afghan president could be inaugurated next week.
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AMANPOUR: Ambassador, welcome to the program.
JAMES CUNNINGHAM, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO AFGHANISTAN: Thank you. Good to be here.
AMANPOUR: Today the new Afghan president was supposed to have been inaugurated. Instead, the country still is in the grip of political
deadlock.
Is there any progress towards unlocking this state of paralysis?
CUNNINGHAM: Well, there's actually been quite a bit of progress. They're not there yet. The audit is moving. It's taken longer than anybody hoped
or wanted, but it is -- it is moving towards conclusion.
And on the political side, the candidates and their teams have been having a very thorough detailed discussion about what will go into forming a
national unity government in which the two teams and others will cooperate in forming a government that has a broad amount of support among the Afghan
population.
AMANPOUR: Is September 2nd, then, a realistic date to inaugurate the new president of Afghanistan?
CUNNINGHAM: I think it's possible. We've all agreed that that is the -- that's the goal. The candidates know that that's an important opportunity
for a president to be declared and get him onto the international stage at the NATO summit a couple days later.
So we'll keep trying to help them reach that -- reach that goal.
AMANPOUR: How would you describe the desire of both candidates to actually have a power sharing agreement?
Obviously Secretary Kerry made that suggestion a while ago. He had both candidates with him and publicly he spoke about their agreement to move
forward for the benefit of the country. It hasn't happened yet.
Do you think they will agree, one to be president, one to be prime minister or any other combination?
CUNNINGHAM: I think they will agree. Instead of power sharing, I think it's better to talk about cooperation between the two. That's what's
really required.
They have understood, as many of Afghanistan's leaders have understood for quite some time, that it's important, coming out of the election, to have a
president who's been elected by a credible process. That's what the audit is intended to affirm, the credibility of the elections.
But it's also important for the president not to be coming into office with the country badly divided, that it needs to come together and find a way to
work together between the various political camps.
That's the process that's going on. It's not easy; it's not easy in any country to do this. But it is done many places around the world and I
think there's a very good chance that it will succeed here.
AMANPOUR: You said not power sharing but cooperation.
What does that mean?
CUNNINGHAM: What they've agreed is that there will be a president; there will be what's called a chief executive officer, not a -- not a prime
minister, because that position doesn't exist under the Afghan constitution. It may later, but it doesn't now.
And there will be an agreed-on government program, which they have pretty much agreed on at this point. And then there will be a process by which
ministers are vetted and selected and appointed by the president to post in the government and throughout the governing structure.
All the details of how to do that are what they're sorting out right now. And they really have made quite good progress at this point.
AMANPOUR: How serious a threat is there in Afghanistan that, if these two political leaders do not resolve their differences and create some kind of
government going forward, that other actors will take matters into their own hands as we've seen in other parts of the world and simply create an
interim government?
How seriously does that worry the United States?
CUNNINGHAM: Well, there are reports and there have been threats and we take them seriously and -- but we also discourage them quite strongly.
We've been very vocal about the fact that there needs to be an Afghan government that's created through the legitimate and constitutional
process, that we won't support any actions outside of the constitution and the legal process.
And that's what the Afghan political class and the Afghan people should be focused on.
It's that kind of government that will have the support of a broad spectrum of Afghan opinion but, very importantly, it's only a government that comes
out of a constitutional process that will have this kind of support that the international community, the United States and our partners, want to
provide to this country.
I think most Afghans understand that and that's what most Afghans want and expect from their political leadership.
AMANPOUR: And presumably most Afghans and the United States government -- you yourself there -- are watching in horror what is going on in Iraq. The
lessons from Iraq must be something that cause you sleepless nights.
Are you concerned that if there is continued political dysfunction that a rise of militantism, a rise of Talibanism and Al Qaeda offshoots, whatever
it might be, will wreck the whole process over the last 13 years?
CUNNINGHAM: Well, that's precisely the reason why I personally have been talking to the political leaders of Afghanistan for quite some time, long
before the elections, about the need not to have an outcome that divides the country but one that provides means for uniting the country behind a
new government and a new president.
Iraq and Afghanistan are not at all the same place. But what's happening in Iraq shows the dangers of not finding a way to unify a political class
and to unify the people behind a government in which -- in which all people feel represented and their concerns taken into account.
AMANPOUR: And finally, despite this dysfunction and the warnings the U.S. has given about keeping a residual force, do you think there's any chance
the United States might not keep a residual force, even if it does drag on as it has been dragging on, this dysfunction?
CUNNINGHAM: No, I don't think that's going to happen. We have a -- we have a clear vision of the way forward.
That vision -- despite the political competition that's going on now -- which, again, is understandable in the aftermath of the election -- despite
that, there's a clear path forward that we have created that's broadly supported by Afghan political leaders no matter where they are with respect
to the two candidates and, very importantly, is supported by a huge majority of the Afghan people, as demonstrated in the loya jirga last year.
So I'm confident that we're going to find a way to get through this, have a president who will sign the necessary agreements. And then we'll be able
to move forward as we've -- as we'd planned.
AMANPOUR: Ambassador James Cunningham, thank you very much for joining me from Kabul tonight.
CUNNINGHAM: You're certainly welcome. Good to talk to you.
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AMANPOUR: And after a break, tributes have been pouring in for a man who helped to spread the message of non-violence to millions of people around
the world.
Sir Richard Attenborough left a lasting legacy for his work on camera and also behind it. The man who brought Gandhi to the screen when we come
back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we've seen humanity at its worst in the barbarism of ISIS and other extremist groups. Now imagine a world where a
labor of love became an award-winning film and a vivid portrait of humanity at its finest.
The British actor-director Sir Richard Attenborough died on Sunday at the age of 90 after a stage and film career that spanned more than six decades.
He first became a breakout star in every sense of the word back in 1963 as the leader of Allied prisoners risking their lives for freedom in the
classic World War II adventure, "The Great Escape," and more recently he portrayed the eccentric scientist who brought dinosaurs back to life in
Steven Spielberg's blockbuster "Jurassic Park."
But this actor's actor is best known as the director of "Gandhi," the 1983 epic that traced the life of the young Indian lawyer who fought for human
rights in South Africa and then returned home to face down the British empire and win his nation's independence.
Now it wasn't a film that Attenborough sought to make as he explained in this interview with the BBC back in 2000. The story sought him.
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SIR RICHARD ATTENBOROUGH, ACTOR-DIRECTOR: Somebody gave me a biography of Mahatma Gandhi and said, "Would you like to direct this film?"
I said, "You must be crazy. I've never directed at all."
The Indian High Commissioner civil servant said, "But you care about minorities. You care about prejudice. These are things you talk about.
Read the book."
I read the book.
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AMANPOUR: He did indeed and 20 years and $22 million later, mortgaging his own home to meet the payment, the film repaid its investment many times
over, winning eight Academy Awards, including Best Picture and Best Director.
But more than that, it remains a stirring reminder of the power of non- violence in the face of brutality and evil. Ben Kingsley played Gandhi.
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" MOHANDAS GANDHI": I praise such courage. I need such courage because, in this cause, I, too, am prepared to die.
But, my friends, there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill.
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AMANPOUR: A remarkable message, a remarkable film and a remarkable life.
And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank
you for watching and goodbye from London.
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