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Amanpour

ISIS Executes Another U.S. Journalist; What Is U.S. Strategy against ISIS?; Imagine a World

Aired September 02, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, breaking news: ISIS strikes again. The brutal terror group releases a new video showing

the beheading of another abducted U.S. journalist, Steven Sotloff, and then threatens the life of a British hostage. My interview with the deputy

assistant secretary of state for Iraq and Iran, Brett McGurk.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Another shocking ISIS execution. The military group has posted a video online which appears to show the beheading of the American journalist

Steven Sotloff. The White House is trying to confirm the authenticity of the video, which comes just a couple of weeks after the execution of

another American journalist, James Foley.

This news is breaking and puts new pressure as President Obama gets ready to fly to Europe for the annual NATO summit, where world leaders will

discuss the unstoppable rise of ISIS and its threat to the U.S., to Europe and, of course, to the Middle East region.

The Islamic State's confidence is growing with each passing day as it keeps battling for more territory while taunting Western leaders with these

executions.

The beheading of journalist Steven Sotloff comes just days after the U.S. conducted more airstrikes in Iraq, helping the Iraqi army and Kurdish

forces to take back control of the town of Amerli, which had been under siege for over two months.

And just today Amnesty International published chilling evidence that it says it's uncovered of massive ethnic cleansing, saying ISIS has turned

the region into, quote, "blood-soaked killing fields."

I'm joined now by Brett McGurk, the deputy assistant secretary of state for Iraq and Iran.

Mr. McGurk, thank you for joining me from the State Department.

First obviously, let me ask you about this video.

Have you seen it?

Does the official U.S. government confirm that this has happened?

BRETT MCGURK, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR IRAQ AND IRAN: Christiane, we've seen the same reports that you have. And I think as we

speak here, our intelligence community is working to authenticate this video. And if it is genuine, of course our hearts go out to the Sotloff

family and it's just a reminder of the barbarism of this organization.

And I think President Obama has shown that when organizations do these types of things to American citizens, they do not go unanswered.

AMANPOUR: Does this put more pressure on Mr. Obama to come up with a comprehensive strategy to combat ISIS?

MCGURK: Well, Christiane, there's different elements to how we're going to combat ISIS. As the president has discussed and as Secretary

Kerry has discussed, it's going to require a broad international coalition. There are many different elements to feeding a group like this.

There is a military component that will not only require an international coalition; the NATO summit is coming up this week. There's

the issue of foreign fighters. Most of the suicide bombers and most of the most aggressive fighters of ISIS are foreign fighters. Those foreign

fighters come from all over the world. They come into Turkey and then they come into Syria.

There's the issue of financing and cutting off their financing. There's the issue of counterlegitimacy and delegitimizing this organization

in every aspect so there's a number of elements that we are going to be working over the coming week, heading all the way into the U.N. general

assembly later this month to organize a broad international coalition to degrade and then ultimately to defeat ISIS.

AMANPOUR: ISIS took its first territory several months ago in Iraq, when it seized Mosul. And it now, as we all know and we've been reporting

has a massive swath of territory between Syria and Iraq.

Now there have been U.S. airstrikes and humanitarian airdrops. And they've made a bit of progress, as we've reported.

But many, including the top members of the U.S. military, including General Dempsey, have said that ISIS cannot only be targeted in Iraq; it

must be targeted in Syria as well.

Has the president, has the U.S. government come any closer to taking the fight to ISIS where it has its safe havens inside Syria?

MCGURK: Well, Christiane, we had about a two-hour national Security Council meeting with President Obama on Thursday night. It was after that

meeting that he ordered the operation in the town of Amerli, which you mentioned in your lead-in, which was a very successful humanitarian

operation with us, the U.K., France and Australia dropping humanitarian assistance in with our Air Force, conducting targeted airstrikes to ensure

that that assistance could be delivered effectively.

We're also actually discussing how we will help a new Iraqi government. And we are actually in the final stages here of standing up a

new and inclusive Iraqi government, which will work to harness all the resources of the state of Iraq and it's a country with vast natural

resources, harness all of those resources against the fight to take the fight to ISIS. And that means, Sunni, Shia, Kurds, everybody working

together in a common plan to fight ISIS. And I am confident that that government will likely ask us for some help. And if they do, we will

engage in a conversation with them about how we can help implement their national plan, their national strategy to defeat ISIS.

AMANPOUR: Mr. McGurk, it's well known that you have spent a long time working for successive administrations on Iraq and that you were

instrumental in Prime Minister Maliki's presence as prime minister, even in the second election in 2010.

Do you have a good handle now on the new prime minister and his ability -- his ability to actually do what Maliki never did or the U.S.

could not get him to do, and that is have a much more inclusive government because, presumably, you agree that shutting out the Sunnis is contributing

and has contributed to the rise of ISIS.

MCGURK: Well, Christiane, I actually just spoke with the prime minister designate earlier this morning and we are discussing with him,

with all of the Sunni political leaders, local leaders in Iraq, and with the Kurds, a national program that can really help bring the country

together.

One of the key demands of the Sunni constituency in Iraq is for a devolution of authorities and a more local security control in their areas,

harnessing local recruits to fight and defeat ISIS. Prime minister designate Ibadi has said publicly he is not going to send army units from

Southern Iraq into Mosul or into Anbar to fight ISIS. That will be the job of the people from Mosul and from Anbar.

That is a vision that is shared by a critical mass of Iraqi society, Sunni, Shia and Kurds. It is something that I think we can really get

behind. And the Iraqis are talking about forming national guard brigades in each province, national guard brigades answering to the governor. These

brigades will be funded and equipped from the national resources of the state. They'd be trained on Iraqi army bases and they would be focused on

providing security in local areas.

That's the kind of national program that we haven't had before and should that be implemented and should that be adopted, it's something that

we'd be willing to work with the Iraqis to work with how we could most effectively help them implement that together with regional international

partners. Because we can't do this on our own. The Iraqis can't do it on their own. It's going to require a real broad coalition from the region

and also the international community.

AMANPOUR: You were there. Some call you a major proponent, an architect of the surge of 2007-2008. And that obviously was successful,

bringing in tribal Sunni leaders, peeling them away from the -- from the insurgent predecessors of ISIS, AQI.

How much more difficult will it be to do the same to, in the current circumstances, given the fact that we're told ISIS is made up of very

senior and competent Saddam Hussein loyalists, former military commanders, Ba'athists, and has a much more bureaucratic and important structure than

AQI did?

MCGURK: Well, implicit in your question is the key point. ISIS is AQI. So we know this enemy. We've fought this enemy. We defeated this

enemy. We know a lot about it. And we are now going to take all that information there to work with the Iraqis to begin to roll this back.

One thing that has happened over the last three weeks since our airstrikes have started is that you have seen for the first time some

disillusionment in the ISIS ranks, particularly in Northern Iraq, and when the airstrikes also started, you saw a growing confidence among the

Peshmerga and also Iraqi forces in terms of being able to take the fight to ISIS.

The battle of the Mosul Dam, Christiane, was a real kind of paradigm shift. It was the first time we had Kurdish forces working directly with

Iraqi counterterrorism service forces, working in coordination under the cover of our air protection and they were able to take back the Mosul Dam

from a very well defended area from ISIS. And ISIS fought to withhold that territory and they lost. They were routed. They were routed by a

combination of Kurdish and Iraqi forces, working together with us.

So different parts of the country will be different. We can't create that model everywhere. But we are increasingly confident that Sunni tribal

leaders are sick and tired of ISIS. They want them out of their areas, but the truth of the matter is that ISIS rules by such ruthless barbarism that

they're able to rule by fear and intimidation.

AMANPOUR: All right. You mentioned --

MCGURK: We're going to work with the Iraqis to degrade ISIS' military capacity which will allow the tribal leaders to begin to control their own

areas and kick ISIS out.

AMANPOUR: Well, you mentioned the Peshmerga. They obviously have a mythical sort of history. And we've all covered them in the past.

But frankly, as you know yourself, they were nearly overwhelmed by ISIS and had it not been for U.S. help, they might have seen ISIS take over

large areas of Kurdistan.

That must be a worry for you as you put a lot of faith into them.

MCGURK: Well, there should be no doubt, Christiane, that ISIS is a very capable, very competent military organization. It's a military force.

When it conducts military operations like it did about 3.5 weeks ago when it moved into the Kurdistan region, it is doing it pursuant to a political

agenda to carve out what is effectively its own state.

So yes, it took -- it's launched a major offensive operation in the Kurdistan region and it overwhelmed frontline Peshmerga units. We

immediately engaged with our Kurdish partners and developed a common plan to begin to push them back. And it was quite effective. And we're going

to do the same thing, Christiane, with a new and inclusive Iraqi government, which we hope to have in place as soon as possible.

AMANPOUR: Mr. McGurk, you keep saying we've done it before; we know ISIS. They were AQI. We defeated them. We're going to do the same thing.

And yet so far it has been very limited, the U.S. action, some of it has been effective. But it has been very limited, a very, very senior

American commander has told me that he feels that there is simply not the political will to take the massive fight to ISIS that will be required to

defeat it.

And as you know, President Obama publicly saying last Thursday that we have no strategy yet has caused a huge amount of anxiety not just in the

United States but around the world.

Let me just read you what the latest is from "The New York Times" columnist Frank Bruni today, saying, "Obama: he's adopted a strange

language of self-effacement with notes of defeatism.

"Is the president consoling us or himself? It's as if he's taken his interior monolog and wired it to speakers in the town square and it is

rattling."

Your reaction to that? Why shouldn't we be worried that the president tells us that he has no strategy against this existential threat yet?

MCGURK: I would say, Christiane, to you and your viewers, to stay tuned. We are putting the features in place, developing a broader regional

coalition, a broad international coalition, working to get a new Iraqi government stood up, working to get our plans in place. So stay tuned.

Obviously ISIS is a very sophisticated organization. You cannot just go in militarily and start dropping bombs and hope that it's going to work out.

You have to have a very sophisticated approach to this. And when you said "we" in your question, the key "we" is not us; it is us with the Iraqis.

The Iraqis in Iraq are going to have to defeat this organization and they are beginning to come together with a common plan to do that.

In terms of Syria, it's just a much different and more complicated situation. It's different in terms of the local actors we can work with on

the ground and obviously we were preparing to launch a much more substantive training program for the Syrian opposition, which we can begin

to control some areas once ISIS is degraded.

But what the president -- we need a comprehensive global regional and local approach, which we can then help enable. We can't just come in into

the United States and do this on our own. That would be counterproductive. That's a lesson we've learned over the last decade.

So again, that's why we're working to stand up the new Iraqi government to help them -- excuse me -- with their own national program and

national plan that can bring the country together against this enemy. And pursuant to that, with a regional international coalition, we'll be

prepared to help.

AMANPOUR: Just a very quick word on your regional international coalition, obviously that would be great.

Are you anywhere close that you can say you have X number of countries, whether NATO, whether regional, to join you in this?

Is anybody pledging to do that?

MCGURK: Well, in the Amerli mission, just this past Saturday, it was the U.S. Air Force, together with the Royal Air Force of the U.K. with the

Australian Air Force and also the French Air Force, all working in a coordinated plan. That plan took about a week to develop. But it was

executed flawlessly. All four air forces at the same time in a very coordinated approach dropped humanitarian assistance to that town in

specific drop zones, which had been coordinated with local people in the town.

And at the same time the U.S. Air Force provided air support to make sure that that mission succeeded. So that was an example of a

multinational coalition coming to help the Iraqis and to begin to push back against ISIS.

In Northern Iraq, we have seen a number of countries from Canada to Germany to France to Australia, helping our Kurdish friends through the

Iraqi government, helping to push back ISIS.

So yes, this coalition is developing. It'll be a main topic of the NATO summit, which will take place later this week in Wales. Secretary

Kerry will then travel to the region later next week to begin a conversation in the region and also with our Iraqi partners.

So again, I would just say stay tuned and this will all head into the U.N. general assembly in New York in which ISIS will be a main topic. And

of course President Obama will chair a session of the U.N. Security Council, an extraordinary session of the Security Council, to focus on the

problem of foreign fighters which are flowing into the region to swell the ranks of ISIS. And that needs to stop.

AMANPOUR: Mr. McGurk, you say stay tuned. But in the meantime, ISIS is busy beheading our colleagues, threatening more of them, massacring

people on the ground and conducting the kind of brutality that we haven't seen in a long, long time.

The Senate -- the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Feinstein, said just this weekend, "I have learned one thing about this

president and that is he's very cautious -- maybe, in this instance, too cautious."

Is that a fair criticism given that you seem to be saying to me tonight that you're ready in Syria, which, as I say, is the haven of ISIS,

to perhaps try to do more for the FSA, the Free Syrian Army, the moderate opposition, should you not have been doing this several years ago, what

you're forced to do right now with much fewer and less attractive options?

MCGURK: Christiane, I'll let the historians look at what might have happened over the last three years. All I can tell you is right now we are

intensely focused on this problem from the president on down. But we recognize -- and everybody has to recognize -- is that we cannot do this on

our own. That is why we have to harness the region and the international community behind this effort to support Iraqis and Syrians to defeat ISIS

on the ground. So that is something that we were developing right now.

When I say stay tuned, I don't want to suggest that we're sitting idle. There have been over 100 airstrikes in Iraq over the last -- over

the last few weeks and those orders very much remain in place. We are over the skies of Iraq. We are actually watching what ISIS is doing and we are

taking targets as they become available within the missions that the president thus far has authorized.

And we are building now a broader campaign plan that will develop over the days and weeks ahead.

AMANPOUR: Well, we will indeed stay tuned and we do hope, in fact, to be able to report that. And we thank you very much for joining us at this

incredibly important moment. Mr. McGurk, thank you very much for joining us from the State Department.

MCGURK: Christiane, thank you for having me.

AMANPOUR: And we will have more on the apparent execution of journalist Steven Sotloff in a moment. The news follows a report by

Amnesty International on ethnic cleansing by ISIS. And that is evidenced by some of these images, the lengths victims have to go to survive. These

Yazidi refugees are living beneath a highway near the city of Dohuk in Kurdistan. Many had escaped up a perilous mountain range as they were

rescued from ISIS. But they found no room in the refugee camp. And so this is now what they call home.

Meantime in Syria, President Bashar al-Assad and ISIS have turned half the population into refugees. But their weapons of war are being turned

into works of art by an artist in the rebel-held town of Douma near Damascus. Unable yet to beat swords into plowshares, this artist is

turning guns and grenades into things of beauty.

And coming up after a short break, more analysis on the breaking news in the latest hour. We'll talk to our guest, Peter Neumann, an expert on

this radical ISIS group.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And returning now to our breaking news, video showing another brutal execution by ISIS of now the

American journalist Steven Sotloff.

The executioner in the video has a British accent just as the one in the previous execution video did a couple of weeks ago of journalist James

Foley. And I'm joined now from London by Peter Neumann. He's an expert on radicalization and he joins us from our bureau there.

Welcome back to the program, Mr. Neumann.

PETER NEUMANN, TERRORISM & RADICALIZATION EXPERT: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Now we've talked about this group before. This group actually telegraphed what it was going to do. So I want to ask you not so

much whether you were surprised that it did it, but whether you think what it made Steven Sotloff say will make any difference.

It basically said that, "I'm back, Obama." That is the executioner. "And I'm back because of your arrogant foreign policy towards the Islamic

State." And Steven Sotloff said that he's paying for the Obama administration's decision to strike ISIS targets.

What do you think that will mean, that -- those two statements?

NEUMANN: It's basically the same message that they also articulate in the previous video which was very simple, which is you're striking us;

we're going to kill your people. You're going to continue striking us; we're going to continue killing your people. That is the message they're

trying to get across.

And since they, as you said, telegraphed it last time, they really had to make good on the threat. One important thing to understand about ISIS

is they are masters at choreography. They're masters of creating the sense of terror.

Had they not made good on this particular threat, they would not have been taking seriously. So they really had to do this. And they basically

rearticulated the same message that they also articulated in the previous video.

AMANPOUR: And they are threatening another hostage, a British hostage apparently.

Do you think that they will go through with that as well?

And by the way, do you believe from what you've seen that Sotloff has just been killed or was killed at the same time or in that same period as

Foley was -- and the announcement is being made now.

NEUMANN: So it looks exactly the same as the previous video, even to the kind of point of day ad, which had seemed to have been shot. However,

it's very clear that also at the beginning of this particular clip, it was a very recent statement from Obama, which of course could have been added

to an already existing video.

So it's not clear. But it may -- it may well have been shot at the exactly, the same day. As to the British hostage, I think tragically it

probably is likely that they will execute a British person at some point in the future unless something dramatic happens.

AMANPOUR: You just heard my interview with the deputy assistant U.S. secretary of state for the region talking about the attempt now by

President Obama to find a strategy and a coalition to defeat ISIS.

Is that going to be possible? What do you think has to be done to do that?

NEUMANN: So what he said makes complete sense in a way. But what also one needs to be honest about is for this plan to come together. It

will probably take months if not years for it to be effective. What he also said was that Iraq is easier than Syria. And that's certainly true.

In Iraq, you do have potential partners. You have the Kurds. You have in certain circumstances the Iraqi government that you can equip, that

you can train, that you can fight with, that you can support on the ground.

That's not necessarily the case in Syria. And we know, of course, that all of these hostages are likely held in Syria precisely because it

is the safest area for ISIS and for the Islamic State. It is the area that America and the enemies of ISIS will find most difficult to tackle.

So even if the plan in Iraq works perfectly, that does not mean that the executions will stop and that does not mean that ISIS will disappear

because in Syria, they seem to be pretty safe in the surrounding -- the Syrian government is not particularly effective and the Americans don't

know how to operate there.

AMANPOUR: Indeed, indeed. And this is obviously something that President Obama is going to be trying to work on as you heard from Mr.

McGurk during the NATO summit.

Peter Neumann, thank you very much indeed for joining us with your expertise on this matter.

Now after a break, a crime against humanity that's beyond dispute. Imagine 298 lives snuffed out in one instant in the skies above the

Ukraine-Russian border. Now this ongoing war is also going to be the focus of President Obama's NATO summit, along with his colleagues. But today

almost two months after MH17 was brought down, some of the victims came home. Prayers for the dead and questions for the living when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally, with the grisly execution of yet another American journalist, Steven Sotloff, by ISIS, our program tonight is

focused on acts of terror and acts of war.

Now imagine a world where a tragic combination of both has dropped off the radar. But it did pop up again today under gray skies which reflected

the somber mood, the remains of nine victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 shot down on the Ukrainian-Russian border on July 17th, killing all

298 passengers and crew, came home to Kuala Lumpur.

In a special ceremony an honor guard carried the flag draped coffins bearing the flight's captain and copilot, along with another captain and a

crew member. There were also the remains of two Dutch nationals, one of whom will find a final resting place alongside his Malaysian wife and their

baby daughter, who all died on that doomed flight.

As the captain and copilot were given a Muslim burial, there were honors from the country's leaders, tears from loved ones and prayers for

the dead. Thirty-one of the 43 Malaysians killed on Flight MH17 have now made that same sad trip home. But well over 100 victims have not been

identified yet. And the data from the black boxes has not yet been released.

As we said at the start of our program, two months after all these civilians were killed in this terrible act of war, President Obama and

world leaders are gathering in Wales for a vital NATO summit later this week. Their success or failure to confront Russia's aggression and the

aggression of ISIS will surely determine the very safety of all of us from the Middle East to Europe to the United States.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from New York.

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