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Amanpour
NATO Faces Multiple Threats; Building a Coalition Against ISIS; Russia on the Outs with NATO; Imagine a World
Aired September 05, 2014 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: NATO wraps up a historic summit and puts its enemies on guard. I speak to Secretary
General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who has this warning for Moscow:
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ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, SECRETARY GENERAL, NATO: Any potential aggressor knows that if they were to attack a NATO ally, they would meet troops not
only from that specific country, but from the NATO alliance as a whole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): And later in the program, Ukrainian peace deal declared. But will it end the five months' war? My interview with
Moscow's special representative to the OSCE.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Two world crises, one NATO summit and two big developments as world leaders conclude their meeting in Wales with President Barack Obama announcing a
coalition and a mission to destroy ISIS.
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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are going to achieve our goal. We are going to degrade and ultimately defeat ISIL, the same way
that we have gone after al Qaeda.
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AMANPOUR: And President Petro Poroshenko announced a cease-fire for Ukraine.
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PETRO POROSHENKO, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: The cease-fire is based on the agreement which we reached during my phone conversation with the Russian
President Putin. And that's why I think that this is very important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: But the ink was barely dry when pro-Russian separatist leaders said they will still try to break away. And the Russian onslaught
continues with fighting in the strategic port city of Mariupol. So NATO leaders say that deeper and broader sanctions will go ahead against Moscow
until it's clear the Kremlin intends to implement this latest truce.
NATO also announced a rapid reaction force to deter any future aggression and as the summit wrapped up in Wales, I spoke to Secretary General Anders
Fogh Rasmussen about perhaps the surprising unity and resolve that it has produced.
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AMANPOUR: Secretary General, welcome back to this program.
RASMUSSEN: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: It's been an incredible NATO summit. We've all talked about how critical and crucial it is, the most important in decades.
But a lot has been announced. There's a cease-fire announced for Ukraine.
How seriously do you take that?
ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, SECRETARY GENERAL, NATO: Of course, I welcome the cease-fire if it's also implemented in good faith. I hope this declaration
of a cease-fire could be the start of a constructive political process.
AMANPOUR: And how do you expect it to do so if the cease-fire plan made no mention of pulling out any Russian forces?
NATO says they're still substantial Russian regular forces; of course, the Russians deny it.
But do you expect them to be removed?
RASMUSSEN: Well, if we are to find a long-term sustainable political solution, there's no doubt that the Russians must withdraw their troops
from Ukraine, from the Ukrainian border. They must stop the flow of weapons and fighters into Ukraine. They must stop their support for armed
separatists and engage in a constructive political dialogue.
AMANPOUR: How much Russian regular force is there right now?
RASMUSSEN: Well, we count them in thousands.
AMANPOUR: In the several thousands?
RASMUSSEN: In several thousands, yes.
AMANPOUR: Secretary General, new sanctions are being decided. But the charge d'affaires, the top diplomat of Ukraine here in England, told me
that even up until now, NATO and the world, Europe has not shown enough unity to deter President Putin.
You've had a whole meeting to try to figure out how to stand up to President Putin.
Is there going to be more unity on tough new measures?
RASMUSSEN: This summit has been a clear demonstration of resolve and unity and solidarity and actually I think the international community has
demonstrated a very strong unity, the European Union, the U.S., G7, NATO, we have all responded in concert to the illegal Russian actions in Ukraine.
AMANPOUR: One of the major announcements at this summit is this rapid reaction force.
How is it going to be rapid and strong enough to deter any such action like we've seen from President Putin in the past? Tell me about it.
RASMUSSEN: We will establish what we call a spearhead force, which will be able to act within a very, very few days if needed. We have seen that the
Russians can act very speedily and obviously we will have to adapt to that.
And I think it has a strong deterrent effect that any potential aggressor knows that if they were to attack a NATO ally, they would meet troops not
only from that specific country, but from the NATO alliance as a whole.
AMANPOUR: Are you confident that all the allies will pony up their proper share of financing and funding for this and in general for NATO operations?
You've said today you get -- when it comes to security, you get what you pay for and it doesn't come cheap.
RASMUSSEN: Yes, indeed. I am confident that all 28 allies will contribute one way or the other. All 28 allies have committed today to gradually
increase defense investment in the coming years.
So this is a clear demonstration of cohesion and solidarity.
AMANPOUR: The other big, big challenge, maybe an even bigger challenge to NATO at this summit, was how to defeat ISIS. After waffling for a long
time about not having a strategy, President Obama has declared the goal must be to degrade, to defeat and to end the threat of ISIS.
Have you formed a coalition? There is news that the U.S. and its allies have formed a coalition to destroy ISIS.
RASMUSSEN: Yes, I would call it a two-track approach.
On the one hand, a number of allies will try to establish a coalition to also take military action against this terrorist organization, the so-
called Islamic State. And I really welcome that, because we need a military operation to stop the Islamic State from advancing further.
On the other hand, and that's the other track, NATO has declared that we, as an alliance, stand ready to assist Iraq if the Iraqi government requests
our assistance. We are ready to consider what we call defense capacity building.
Until 2011 we had a training mission in Iraq and we are ready to consider that if the Iraqi government so requests.
AMANPOUR: You keep saying if it so requests. I had the Iraqi president on this program yesterday, who said, "Through you, I am requesting." Yes,
they have not put a formal request, but they've requested from NATO members.
What's the discrepancy here?
RASMUSSEN: No, but it's understandable. I mean, they don't have a new government in Iraq yet. What counts is that we have declared from today's
summit that if the Iraqi government were to forward such a request to NATO, we would consider it seriously.
AMANPOUR: Do you believe the movement is towards not just confronting ISIS in Iraq but in Syria as well? Many have said that if you don't do it in
Syria, you might as well not even bother in Iraq, so to speak?
RASMUSSEN: Yes. No doubt that Syria and Iraq should be looked upon as a whole. Many of the problems originate from the internal conflict in Syria.
There is a clear spillover to the region and that's why I think the international community will have to address these problems as a whole.
AMANPOUR: Do you think it's moving towards that? Is there now a developing political will, a consensus?
RASMUSSEN: Based on the discussions we have had here at the summit, I think there is a strong political will to do what it takes to stop this
terrorist organization, the Islamic State, from advancing further --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Even if it means --
RASMUSSEN: -- and defeat it.
AMANPOUR: -- even if it means intervening militarily in Syria as well?
RASMUSSEN: Yes, well, I won't go into details at this stage. But this terrorist organization is a matter of concern. It poses a threat not only
to Iraq and the region, but also to the rest of the world. And that's why the international community has, I would call it, an obligation to take the
necessary steps to defeat this terrorist organization.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Secretary General, I asked you several times and I've asked many leaders, do you believe that this job now would have been much easier
had you all done it three years ago?
We hear from the previous commander of all British forces that he had been asked, and he did, drew up a substantial, coherent contingency plan to
defeat these terrorists in Syria. It was never implemented, he said, because the political will wasn't there, the market wouldn't bear it, he
said.
Do you think you all missed an opportunity and now we're faced with this ISIS?
RASMUSSEN: Well, I think all the way through it has been very hard to see a military solution to the conflict in Syria. And still I think a long-
term, sustainable solution will take a strong political and diplomatic effort.
But the bottom line is that we have seen the rise of this terrorist organization, the Islamic State, that has committed horrific atrocities.
And now I see it as an obligation for the international community to stop it, to defeat it and take the necessary steps to that end.
AMANPOUR: Afghanistan might have taken precedence at this summit, given the withdrawal of NATO forces and all others by the end of this year,
except for a residual force.
Do you think NATO can use its clout to force these political leaders to come up with a political resolution of their dispute?
RASMUSSEN: Actually, we received a quite encouraging political message from the two presidential candidates, that they will do their utmost to
reach a political agreement. And that was highly appreciated by the participants in our meeting.
And I think the presidential candidates know very well that a lot is at stake because if they don't find a solution soon and if there will be no
signature on the necessary security agreement, then we can stay in Afghanistan beyond 2014.
It will be impossible for us to deploy our training mission, to train, advise, assist the Afghan security forces. And that would have a very
negative impact not only on the security situation in Afghanistan but also regarding financial assistance to Afghanistan.
And I think the presidential candidates are very well aware of that.
AMANPOUR: Secretary General Rasmussen, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
RASMUSSEN: You're welcome.
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AMANPOUR: And coming up, so will the cease-fire really stick in Ukraine? As you just heard, Secretary General Rasmussen saying that there are
thousands of Russian troops inside Ukraine but Russia doesn't even admit that its forces are fighting there.
So I ask a top Russian diplomat about it when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
We've just heard from the top NATO chief about what Russia has to do to deter even deeper sanctions. Now we turn to the view from the Kremlin,
which still denies this accusation.
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GENERAL ADRIAN BRADSHAW, NATO DEPUTY SUPREME COMMANDER: We already know now that there are Russian regular forces on the ground in Ukraine
operating in main battle tanks, employing artillery fire and delivering all sorts of support to separatists and, you know, this sort of armed incursion
on the territory of a sovereign nation is unacceptable.
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AMANPOUR: That is NATO's deputy military commander and you can see the rest of his interview on our website, amanpour.com.
But how to implement a cease-fire if Russia doesn't even admit its troops are there, much less promise to withdraw them?
For answers on this and reaction to NATO's new rapid reaction force, I turned to Andrey Kelin, Russia's permanent representative to the OSCE in
Vienna.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: Ambassador Kelin, welcome to the program.
ANDREY KELIN, RUSSIAN REPRESENTATIVE, OSCE: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: We've had a lot of reaction from NATO and others to this cease- fire that's been signed in Minsk today. They're saying actions will speak louder than words.
Are you confident that this cease-fire will actually be the real thing?
KELIN: I just got the news and I just read a document that has been signed in Minsk. It is complicated -- it is very interesting -- at the moment I
can say two things.
First it is immediate cease-fire; as I understand it has already entered into force by now or will be entering in some minutes. And for us, most
important that it will put an end to killing of people in Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts because too many victims are -- civilian victims are killed
in recent weeks unfortunately. And this is at the main outcome.
As for the other aspects, we should analyze it. It foresees also control from the -- and monitoring on behalf of the OSCE. And we are going to work
on that.
AMANPOUR: President Poroshenko of Ukraine has indicated that he is willing to talk about these increased political freedoms and a certain amount of
autonomy. But the peace plan, which is based on President Putin's seven- point road map, does not call for Russian forces to come out of Ukraine.
And we've just heard from the top, highest levels of NATO on this program that substantial Russian forces remain inside Ukraine.
Do you think they should come out now?
KELIN: Well, I can confirm and reconfirm, there are no Russian forces in Ukraine. And this is absolutely sure. This is on the one hand.
But at the same time, I do not deny at all that there might be volunteers over there.
AMANPOUR: I know you keep painting them as volunteers or people who are on holiday just going to, you know, stand by their brethren inside Eastern
Ukraine.
But NATO has shown satellite images: an armed incursion.
You say they're volunteers.
But what about the forces moving on Mariupol?
And what is their aim?
KELIN: Well, Mariupol is a part of Donetsk oblast and that's a fact of life, I'm afraid. So it's second biggest city in Donetsk oblast, probably.
And I believe that they're going to liberate.
If you will look into the composition of the population of Donetsk, it is 90 percent Russian people over there, by the way. So they are ethnic
Russians, although they are bearers of Ukrainian passports.
So Mariupol is -- this is natural, absolutely.
As for tanks and other weaponry, this is Soviet weaponry, pretty old one and they are enormous quantities now are what are now in these two areas.
AMANPOUR: Ambassador, let me ask you to respond to what NATO has announced, that they will have a rapid reaction force to defend all its --
all their members and anyone who is threatened around there.
What do you think the rapid reaction force is going to do?
And how will President Putin view it?
KELIN: Well, I think we will give an estimation to NATO decision later on after we are going to study it. And my very preliminary opinion and very
cautious one is we can analyze it only from a point of view of agreements that we do have with NATO.
We -- with NATO, we do have a founding act and our own declaration. A founding act contains certain limitations on our -- what NATO is capable to
do and what is not capable to do.
At least there are obligations that NATO is not going to put nuclear forces on the territory of new members. And the NATO has taken an obligation not
to put substantial forces permanently on the territory close to Russia.
If the intention is to put new substantial forces closer to us, then we should have an analysis whether this is a breach of the founding act. And
then we should take our conclusions. But as I say, this is a very preliminary opinion and I haven't seen the text.
AMANPOUR: On the issue of territorial integrity and sovereignty, the head of NATO has said that Russia must give back, must stop its illegal -- as
they said -- annexation of Crimea.
Is that going to happen?
KELIN: No, I'm sure this not going to happen. We are -- Crimea is a part of the Russian Federation based on the referendum in which an overall
majority, much more than 90 percent of the population, has voted in favor of joining Russia. This is a clear-cut decision.
AMANPOUR: We understand that Chechen forces are fighting with ISIS, Chechen anti-Russian forces. And there is a quote by an ISIS fighter
that's been reported. I'd like to read it to you.
"This is a message to you, O, Vladimir Putin. These are the jets that you have sent to Bashar."
He's talking about the president of Syria.
"We will send them to you, God willing, remember that. And we will liberate Chechnya and the entire Caucasus, God willing."
What is your reaction to that?
And do you think that in fact Russia should be working with the rest of the West, NATO, et cetera, against ISIS?
KELIN: I'm sure that we will continue the work between Russia, United States and Western Europe and other Europe against terrorism. Terrorism is
the overall evil. We suffered a lot because of the terrorism.
A couple of days ago, we celebrated -- well, this is not a cause of celebration -- we commemorated 10 years from killing in this land where a
lot of school children has been blown and burned by terrorists, terrible event. I was over there.
So we are struggling very hard against terrorists and we have natural allies. So the time will pass by and we will probably again -- we will be
allies in this struggle. But we do not deny it at all.
AMANPOUR: Ambassador Andrey Kelin, thank you so much for joining me from Vienna.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And after a break, in the cascade of global crises and the daily diet of devastating images, we sometimes forget that the Arab Spring first
sprung as a peaceful democratic revolution. And it still inspires artists all over the world. An outlaw exhibition, a beautiful day in the
Djerbahood in Tunisia where it all began -- after a break.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, there was a time when ISIS didn't exist and Ukraine's borders with Russia seemed safe and secure. Instead of armies
and airstrikes, imagine a world back then riveted by a peaceful revolution, the Arab Spring. It all began, of course, in Tunisia, which today is a
democracy in progress, with a new constitution and hopes for a stable new government to be elected by the end of the year.
And it has new freedom of expression. Long known as the island of dreams, Djerba is one of Tunisia's most popular tourist stops. But now it's become
a must-see destination thanks to more than 100 artists from 30 countries who've been invited to create giant murals all over this ancient
picturesque village on that island.
They're calling it Djerbahood, one of the largest gatherings of street art ever and it couldn't come to a more appropriate place. One of the oldest
towns in North Africa, where Jews, Muslims and Christians have lived together in peace for over two millennia. From these giant open hands
created by a French artist to a Belgian's mammoth octopus to this Spanish artist's contribution to a seamstress' shop. If walls could talk, these
walls speak to all people of all languages.
Now the official unveiling is still a few weeks away, but organizers hope the residents will leave the artwork or graffiti or whatever you choose to
call it in place and possibly even add to it themselves in the future.
Free expression in a free Muslim land? Imagine that, ISIS.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank
you for watching and goodbye from London.
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