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Amanpour

The "Moral Duty" to Stop ISIS Militants; Scotland Referendum On A Knife's Edge; Imagine A World

Aired September 15, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight as world leaders gather in Paris to build a coalition to fight ISIS, from Rome, the Vatican

weighs in on the moral obligation.

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CARDINAL FERNANDO FILONI, POPE'S ENVOY TO IRAQ: No one can use the name or in the name of the God to do something like this. This is -- are really

devil things.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): And later, the Scotland debate, the "Financial Times" says the U.K.'s most successful marriage in history. I talk to the

editor about the perils of divorce.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

No time to lose. That call to action against ISIS from the French President Francois Hollande in Paris today, Hollande has directed French

fighter jets to join allies in reconnaissance missions over Iraq. But there were no further major pledges made and there's still little sense of

exactly what nation will fight from the air or on the ground. No decision has been made here in Britain and the major Arab ally, Saudi Arabia, seems

to be pouring cold water over Riyadh's contribution.

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PRINCE ALWALEED BIN TALAL: I think that Saudi Arabia would not be involved directly in fighting the ISIS in Iraq or Syria, because really, this does

not really affect -- although it affected implicitly, it does not really affect Saudi Arabia explicitly.

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AMANPOUR: But while those directly in ISIS crosshairs may be dithering, Pope Francis has been crystal clear. He says that it is legitimate to stop

an unjust aggressor. And just this weekend he suggested that the world could now be witnessing World War III.

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POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Even today, after the second failure of another world war, perhaps one can speak of a third war, one fought

piecemeal with crimes, massacres, destruction.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): The horrors against Christians and minorities in Iraq drew the first U.S. airstrikes this summer. And the pope sent a

senior emissary to Iraq as every Christian in Mosul was forced out, ending a presence that goes back 2,000 years.

Cardinal Fernando Filoni joined me earlier with a surprisingly tough view from the Vatican. ISIS, he told me, is doing the devil's work and their

victims must be defended.

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AMANPOUR: Cardinal, may I just start by asking you a reaction to the latest very tragic and barbaric news from this terrorist organization, the

execution of the British aid worker, David Haines.

FILONI: These terrible things are not very new to me. I was the apostolic nuncio in Iraq before, during and after the war. And I remember the

terrible moments when so many terrorists started to kill people.

AMANPOUR: The Pope, His Holiness, spoke to the parents of James Foley after he was beheaded, the first man, the American journalist.

What is the pope's reaction to the latest execution?

FILONI: I can imagine that the pope is really upset, very sad. I am sure that his first reaction is to pray for this poor man, who was innocent but

killed, and for the family and for all his friends, which they saw this terrible, terrible moment in which he was killed.

No one can use the name or in the name of the God to do something like this. This is -- are really devil things.

AMANPOUR: You say it's the devil's work. And the pope himself, the Holy Father, has said that it is legitimate to stop this kind of aggression.

Can you tell me then what he means and will he support the armed campaign to stop these people who you describe as the devil, Islamic State?

FILONI: The Holy Father many times has spoke about no war. But we are not -- we are not talking now about war. We are talking about something

different, somebody, a group, terrorists, which are well equipped with the money, with people, with ideological mind, they attacked the people who no

one of them had any arms to defend themselves, nor keep just very simple, poor farmers, families, people who are living the villages their life,

peaceful people.

So it's not the same like in the war. So I suppose that it is our first duty for human rights reason, for the sake of the humanity that these

people must be defended, must be helped, is not only one moral duty, but is more. We have to be engaged. We are a part of these people. They are

part of our humanity. They are Christians. They are Yazidis. They are the minorities. No matter. All of them, they need our support.

AMANPOUR: If there is an international coalition that tries to stop ISIS and defeat ISIS militarily, would the Holy Father oppose that or would he

allow that to go forward?

FILONI: No. The Holy Father already spoke clearly. He clearly explained what means war, what means defending people. In this situation, we have

tried to defend the poorest, the poor people, the poor refugees. If you look, if you had the occasion to look in the face of these Yazidis, it's

terrible. These poor ladies with the babies just sitting down, they don't know what to do. They don't know what to -- what is their future.

I met three young boys who were running from their villages in Sinjar province. And they told me we are the only three saved who escaped from

our villages. And all the ladies, young or middle aged ladies, disappear. Can we sitting down and waiting for what? If those ladies were my sister,

my mother, my wife, my children, can I react just turning my sight to another side? This is my question.

AMANPOUR: So, Cardinal, this would then be a just war to stop ISIS.

FILONI: I don't -- I don't say war. I wanted to say defending people who are in need. And this is what's asked by people there.

AMANPOUR: There are reports that ISIS has damaged heavily the tomb of Jonah, that statues and religious icons have been degraded and defaced

inside churches.

Do you think the Christian minority of Iraq, which has been there for millennia, will come back? Can it survive in Iraq?

FILONI: I spoke to many people, some of them they were just asking to go away. Some others, many others told me we want to stay here. This is our

land. This is -- here are our villages, our houses. We want to stay but they ask for international security. This is unexpected this just many

times. If there is an international security, we can go back. We can restart.

Of course, we know that the first duty belongs to the Iraqi government to defend them. But if they are not in this position, they cannot defend

themselves, somebody else has to take also this duty, at least until the local government is ready to retake its duty.

AMANPOUR: Until the local government is able to stand up and perform its duty, how does His Holiness, how do you believe this evil must be stopped?

FILONI: I saw that the local government -- means the Kurdistan regional government -- they are doing a lot. They told me many times, we don't need

the people to fight with us. We need just equipment. We have sufficient to influence this situation, to regain our borders and to safeguard our

villages.

So I suppose that this is also a good opportunity. So internationally, we must put to them in a position to defend themselves, to defend these poor

people.

AMANPOUR: Cardinal Fernando Filoni, thank you so much for joining me from Rome today.

FILONI: Thank you very much. And may God bless all of you.

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AMANPOUR: And after that careful case from the Vatican, a little papal history. The pope's namesake, St. Francis of Assisi, tried to end the

Crusades in the Middle Ages and other popes have not shied away from standing up to tyrants and terror.

In the 1930s, Pope Pius XII condemned the Soviet Union's brutal policies, which prompted Josef Stalin to famously taunt, "How many divisions does the

pope have?"

Well, Pope John Paul II provided that answer in the 1980s, when he helped bring about the collapse of the Soviet Union, when he stood in solidarity

with his brothers and sisters in Poland and across Eastern Europe. And so it goes.

And after a break, we'll turn to the political fault line that threatens to fracture the United Kingdom, Scotland the brave or on a fool's errand?

We'll examine that question when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

The Scots have been warned by both sides that there is no way back if they vote for independence in Thursday's referendum. Alex Salmond, Scotland's

first minister, said that if he lost, he would not bring this to a vote again. And the British Prime Minister David Cameron traveled today to

Aberdeen in a last-ditch appeal, saying that independence wouldn't be a trial separation but a painful divorce.

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DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: The greatest example of democracy the world has ever knows of openness, of people of different

nationalities and faiths coming together as one would be no more. It would be the end of a country that launched enlightenment, that abolished

slavery, that drove the Industrial Revolution, that defeated fascism, the end of a country that people around the world respect and admire, the end

of a country that all of us call home.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): This after the Queen was finally drawn into the debate at the weekend. She reportedly urged Scots to, quote, "think very

carefully" before they cast their vote.

And the vote is still too close to call. The widely read "Financial Times" recently published a full-page editorial on why it felt that it's better to

stay together. But has that case been made well enough? Editor Lionel Barber joined me here in the studio to explain.

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AMANPOUR: Lionel Barber, welcome to the program.

LIONEL BARBER, EDITOR, "FINANCIAL TIMES": Nice to be here, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Good to see you on this amazing day.

First of all, for you, at the "FT," a new layout, a new look for your newspaper.

BARBER: We believed there's a firm, solid, profitable future in print and so we are giving it a new look. But of course the content is what really

matters.

AMANPOUR: And the content has always been very much in the newspaper and online. And from what I gather, you have been giving your Scotland content

online for free. I mean, for you, this matter goes beyond paywalls.

BARBER: We decided late last week that this was a matter of such importance it is, after all, the first time that there's a prospect of a

300-plus year union breaking up that we thought it was a public service to make all our content free.

AMANPOUR: And what has it been like?

BARBER: On Scotland.

AMANPOUR: On -- you are hasty to say.

And what has the reaction been like?

Is there a vigorous debate like there is in Scotland? Is there one that you can see online?

BARBER: We've had a lot of very positive comments about our decision and the editorial, which was Queen's length -- that's the full length of the

newspaper -- that we wrote in defense of the union actually attracted more than 300 comments from readers, somewhat divided, as you can imagine.

AMANPOUR: You have very clearly placed the "FT" in the no camp and you call the road to separation a fool's errand.

Why?

BARBER: We really believe that it would be very dangerous and highly risky in terms of economics. We'll leave the sense of history and the politics

aside for a moment. But we believe that the yes campaign is not answered. Important questions that notably what will the currency be? We don't know.

We do believe that the government, the Bank of England and the government and the opposition parties are correct when they say that sterling will not

be offered to the Scots.

We also believe that there are unanswered questions about tax rise and the fiscal implications of independence.

AMANPOUR: Your headlines have been quite dramatic; you have said that Scotland faces a decade of uncertainty.

Why do you not think like many Scots who vote yes that actually the day after people will start to understand that this has had and maybe they will

negotiate a currency union. Maybe things won't be as dramatically bad as you portray.

BARBER: Let's be very clear. Scotland is a thriving economy. It -- there's no contrast to the Scotland that I knew in the late 1970s, where

shipyards were closing, mines were closing. It was going through a very painful transition.

The point, though, the other really important point is the transition. How do you -- how do you overcome the short-term -- and when I say short-term,

we're talking a year, two years, of uncertainty where you could have higher interest rates. The real uncertainty created by the lack of knowledge,

investors over the currency.

AMANPOUR: When you look further down the road, though, and people in Scotland say this isn't for a year or two years, this is for our life, this

as all sides so -- say is no going back from.

Like Slovakia and the Czech Republic, this may end up just fine for both sides.

BARBER: We believe again -- and these are experts that we've talked to in terms of -- and our own economists, distinguished commentators like Martin

Wolfe (ph), who focus on the transition, we are not saying -- we never have written that Scotland could not be an independent country, that it doesn't

have a right to be an independent country.

Clearly, if there is a majority in favor of yes, the "Financial Times" will respect that vote and support it. We're just pointing to the dangers of

uncertainty, the price of uncertainty, which will affect ordinary people. And the price that they pay for goods, differential prices, north and south

of the border, the uncertainty of a mortgage, all these daily routine things that matter.

It's not a matter just for investors and financial markets. It's what happens to ordinary people.

AMANPOUR: Alex Salmond, the first minister of Scotland, has clearly been a vastly superior politician. He has waged a campaign that has been years in

the making, that has been methodical, that is passionate, that is populist, that it is nationalist.

Has he been entirely credible on the challenges that the Scots will face, as you put forth?

BARBER: Well, we don't believe he has. He is a very skilled, astute politician. One of his most brilliant reasons and one which the present

coalition government and the Labour Party have gone along with is some now, some notion that the English have no interest and shouldn't address any of

their questions facing the Scots.

This in effect encouraged the prime minister to stay away from Scotland, not make the case for the union, even though he represents the Conservative

and Unionist Party and is prime minister of the United Kingdom. I should also point to the fact there are 500,000-plus Scots living outside

Scotland, who we also believe should have had a stake in the vote.

AMANPOUR: So now the prime minister has given a speech. He's in Scotland today, the last time he'll be there before the referendum.

Can he close this deal?

BARBER: I think David Cameron tends to leave things until the last minute. And he has made a very good speech, from what I could hear today, made some

powerful arguments. But in the end, it's going to be a bit like the Battle of Waterloo, a close-run thing. And I wouldn't dare to predict the outcome

at this stage.

AMANPOUR: We've talked and you've talked about in the paper what it might do to Scotland and to the Scottish people. But what will it mean to Great

Britain? Let's face it. We're talking about a coalition now. We've had a big NATO meeting. There's ISIS that is a big, big challenge. There's

Russia in Ukraine that's a massive challenge here in Europe.

What will a breakup do for Britain's throw weight, if you like, in the international arena?

BARBER: Well, considerately diminished, the influence of the United Kingdom because we won't have Scotland, which represents an eighth or so of

the territorial mass and it raised questions about how effective Scotland can be in the international arena. Scotland wants to join the E.U. That's

not going to be a simple task. Remember, too, that Britain, the United Kingdom is a member of the permanent Security Council at the U.N. All

these questions while the world is looking at this separation, the potential separation of a union at a time of peace and during an economic

recovery. There are many people who wonder what on Earth is going on.

AMANPOUR: Do you think that right now this rush, this wakeup, if you like, by the no campaign or the headlines we're seeing from business leaders and

from many people predicting all sorts of woe for Scotland if they do vote yes, might the Scottish people say, hang on a second. You're just making

me angry. I'm going to vote yes.

Is there an arrogance about these worries and these warnings that are being flooded now?

BARBER: I think that it was a brilliant tactic by Alex Salmond to make that case, that you can't come up here and give us -- make your arguments

in favor of no because that will be bullying. That meant that a lot of these practical, concrete questions about how the currency would work, what

about pricing, were not made until the very last minute.

He also persuaded business or at least shall we say heavily persuaded businesses to stay on the sidelines. That's why you're now seeing there's

such a late intervention, which could backfire now, because my experience of learning in three years in Scotland is the Scots don't like being told

or being bullied.

So it's on a very -- it's on a knife edge. But the other important point to make is whatever happens, Britain, the United Kingdom, will be a

separate -- will be a very different country because now the whole constitutional arrangements are going to be revisited, whatever the

outcome.

AMANPOUR: Lionel Barber, thank you very much indeed.

BARBER: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And if Scotland should indeed vote for independence, what of the Tartans' long and storied history as part of the British army?

In 1815, when Napoleon met his Waterloo, Scottish troops fought side by side with soldiers from England, Ireland and Wales. And over 100 years

later on D-Day, when descendants of that band of brothers stormed the shore at Normandy, a Scottish piper named Bill Millin, wearing his father's kilt

and armed only with a dagger, ignored the machine guns and the mortar fire, inspiring the Allies with the skirl of his bagpipes, a scene that was

reenacted in the famous move of the D-Day landings, "The Longest Day."

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): And after a break, imagine another act of valor beyond the call of duty, one that took 150 years to be honored. That

profile in courage when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, as President Obama raises a coalition to fight the ISIS terrorist organization, imagine a world where one American

soldier who gave his last full ounce of devotion had to wait 150 years to be honored.

First Lieutenant Alonzo Cushing was a 22-year-old Union officer at the Battle of Gettysburg, the turning point in the American Civil War. On the

third and final day of that battle with only 100 men and six cannons, he refused to retreat as 13,000 Confederate infantry, known as Pickett's

Charge, tried to break through the Union line.

Mortally wounded, he kept firing and held that ground until the battle was won -- and it cost him his life. For a century and a half, his act of

conspicuous valor was buried with him. But in recent years, members of his family and history buffs began a campaign on behalf of the young man who

helped save the Union and end slavery in America.

Today, First Lieutenant Alonzo Cushing finally received the Medal of Honor from America's first black president, a living legacy of that heroism.

And that's it for our program tonight. And remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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