Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

President Obama Visits Myanmar; "The Trials of Oscar Pistorius"; Bryan Adams behind the Camera; Imagine a World

Aired November 13, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: President Obama urges Myanmar to move faster towards democracy. The country's

ambassador to the U.K. joins us.

Also coming up, we get the first look at a new book about Oscar Pistorius from childhood to the courtroom.

And later in the program, I talk to pop star turned photographer Bryan Adams about his new work honoring the war wounded.

BRYAN ADAMS, PERFORMER AND PHOTOGRAPHER: It might have been a fallacy at one point that people were just going to go into Iraq and they were

going to walk out. And it was going to be fine. But it wasn't the case. And the people started coming back, terribly wounded.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Four years after Myanmar emerged from the shadows of international isolation, today it stands accused of stalling on reform, backsliding on

democracy and failing on human rights.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): U.S. President Barack Obama made his first historic visit to the country two years ago. But now on his second trip,

questions are being raised about whether he was too quick to welcome Myanmar back into the fold.

Speaking in the capital, , earlier today, President Obama said Myanmar has made progress but admits that it still has a long way to go.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was excellent discussion about this transition process that's taking place here in

Myanmar around consolidating some of the gains that have already been made and also pushing further to institute genuine democracy here in this

country to serve the needs of all people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now previously on this program, President Thein Sein told me that he was committed to political reform and to doing his utmost to

contain the ethnic violence against the Muslim Rohingya people.

And opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi spoke to me about rule of law and human rights. But today both are facing strong criticism for falling

short of those expectations.

And we had a rare opportunity to speak to an official from Myanmar, so long barred from interviews with Western journalists.

Kyaw Zwar Minn, Myanmar's ambassador to the United Kingdom, but also to France, Scandinavia and Ireland, joined me earlier here in the studio.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Ambassador, welcome to the program. And thank you for joining me.

President Obama is in your right now.

How important is it for Myanmar to stay on track with the reform process and make sure that what America has already done for you, brought

you in from isolation -- you were a pariah state -- suspended sanctions, that the president can feel that he can keep doing that?

KYAW ZWAR MINN, MYANMAR AMBASSADOR TO THE U.K.: We believe that President Obama will keep supporting to our country. Of course he would

like to encourage our country, our reform process. It's progressed to what a democratic --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: And you're committed to that?

MINN: Of course, of course.

AMANPOUR: And how important is your relationship with the United States?

MINN: So we have a good relationship in the past. But after the '88, it was a little bit colder. And then it's coming up again.

AMANPOUR: Is it important?

MINN: Of course, of course. This important for our country.

AMANPOUR: One of the aspects of democracy is that pretty much everybody should be free to run and even the president has said that

everyone should be free to run.

But as you know, there's a constitutional issue that the opposition leader, Aung San Suu Kyi, is trying to change and that is the provision

that forbids somebody who's married to a foreigner or who has foreign-born children from running.

Do you think Aung San Suu Kyi will be allowed to run?

Again, that is a barometer of how the world sees Myanmar, a fair election process.

MINN: It depends on the people who will decide who will make the person from Myanmar.

AMANPOUR: And do you think she should be allowed to run?

MINN: We will see.

(LAUGHTER)

MINN: We will see.

AMANPOUR: Today, the United States has urged your government to grant the Muslim minority Burmese citizenship and recognition as ordinary Myanmar

citizens.

I would like to play you a little bit from our reporter in Myanmar, who went to visit some of these Muslim minority Rohingyas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Well over 100,000 displaced Rohingya now live in camps like this. These men say they fled

their burning homes two years ago with only the clothes on their backs.

"If I try to go back to where my house was," Nour Bashir (ph) tells me, "the people there will kill me," not that he has much of a choice. The

government severely restrictions the movement of Rohingya, confining them to enclaves that some critics have described as internment camps.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So what is your reaction when you see that?

It's really a black mark on your government and it's one of the main things that's in the spotlight for the last several years. And of course

now while President Obama is in Myanmar.

MINN: Two or three years ago, we watched the movie, "The Rambo" (sic) --

AMANPOUR: "Rambo," the movie.

MINN: -- yes, "Rambo."

So at that movie, they shot a lot of bad scenes about our army. So actually, you know, even though I was working in the army for 30 years,

I've never give the order to rape and kill other people.

So that mean, you know. We need to balance the media and the reality. So of course, you know, they can cycle (ph) these pictures in the media.

But you need to get about what they are saying, is it true or not.

AMANPOUR: Right. Of course. And that's why we have reporters, who go there to visit and bring us back eyewitness information.

Do you believe the Rohingyas are real people?

I mean, your country doesn't even like to call them Rohingya.

Do you consider them people?

MINN: Yes, certainly, they are people. But we are not accept the title. That's the thing that we (INAUDIBLE) in our country --

AMANPOUR: But even the United Nations secretary-general says it's their right to be called whatever they want.

MINN: Of course. It will take time to find out the right answer.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Kyaw Zwar Minn, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

MINN: OK. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So let's drill down on some of these challenges with Lex Rieffel, who's a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and an expert

on Southeast Asia.

Mr. Rieffel, thank you very much indeed for joining us from Washington.

First, can we just head straight to the Rohingya issue?

I found it fascinating that the ambassador went all the way back to clearly what stuck in their craw and that is the Hollywood movie, "Rambo,"

that seem to have put them in a bad light.

But beyond that, what can be done to give these people human rights?

Will it happen?

LEX RIEFFEL, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Christiane, I think it is impossible for anyone in the Western world to appreciate the depth of the

anti-Rohingya sentiment, the intensity of the anti-Rohingya sentiment without witnessing it first-hand.

I witnessed it first-hand three or four years ago and I was appalled. I had never encountered anything like that in my life. That is a reality.

We can't wish this away. It will not go away by wishing; it won't go away by yelling.

AMANPOUR: Is there a political framework? Certainly President Obama's talked about it to President Thein Sein. You know, one of the big

surprises and disappointments is that, as you mentioned, the depth of the hatred towards them; even Aung San Suu Kyi, this international icon and

beacon of right, has failed to stand up for them.

So is there any chance of a political resolution to their status and their persecution?

RIEFFEL: I can't do better than the quote I gave to "The New York Times" last week. "To help the Myanmar people get beyond this will require

some sophisticated, thoughtful nudging."

These are attitudes that don't change in a year. They don't change necessarily in a generation. And they don't necessarily change faster when

there's outside pressure.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: So now President Obama --

RIEFFEL: -- a problem.

AMANPOUR: -- yes. It is a problem and obviously for these people, the slower it is, the worse it is for them.

President Obama is there and it was a diplomatic and a strategic triumph for the United States to bring Myanmar basically into the fold of

the West and out of their isolation.

Is it too much too soon?

Should the sanctions have stayed in place?

What are the challenges for President Obama?

RIEFFEL: It's interesting that you use that phrase. Last year earlier, I published a report. The title was "Too Much Too Soon," and my

argument -- this was a study I did with another economist -- was that Myanmar was getting too much aid too soon; it was being overwhelmed. The

government didn't have the capacity to deal with the foreign investors, the diplomats, the aid agencies, the NGOs, everybody that was pouring in.

So it's -- really what we need, what Myanmar needs more than anything else, I believe, is space, space to find its own path to a better society,

to adjust to society, to a society that can accept everybody, including the Rohingya.

AMANPOUR: So I promise you I hadn't read that pamphlet of yours. I probably should have done. But you know, you say they need space and time.

That's what they say. But of course, everybody wants to see this democratic process accelerated.

What do you think the prospects are for a real free and fair election at the end of this year if they stand accused of backsliding rather than

making forward progress?

RIEFFEL: Well, again I would say that the problem as I see it is not so much backsliding, it is unrealistic expectations. Also the Rohingya

problem may be the worst problem, the most difficult problem to solve, but it's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the conflict with the

ethnic minorities that has been going on since independence, 60 years ago, the peace process.

I can't see any decent future for this country without a resolution to the peace process. And that peace process has a direct connection to the

election that's supposed to be held next year. And, again, the question is what can outsiders do to help the Myanmar government succeed in its effort

to bring peace to that country?

And I'm not sure that we're doing the right thing. It is conceivable to me that we're trying too hard to help them bring the peace to their

country.

AMANPOUR: OK, I'm confused.

How can we be trying too hard to bring peace?

RIEFFEL: Because every government in the world, every NGO in the world, every expert in the world is going in there and telling them how to

do things, how to fix the problem and they -- and they're just -- they're like -- they're like 20 or 30 people, who have the ability to speak to

these foreigners, to -- but they're supposed to be running the government. They don't have time to make the policy decisions, to negotiate with the

ethnic minorities and so forth that they need.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, we will continue to watch this space.

Lex Rieffel from Brookings Institute (sic), thank you so much indeed for joining us.

RIEFFEL: Thank you, Christiane. It was a pleasure to be with you.

AMANPOUR: And next, it was South Africa's most sensational murder trial ever, a gripping tale of love and death that unraveled live in court

around the globe. And after a break, we speak to the author, who's dug deep into the past of Oscar Pistorius, uncovering what he finds is a life

story of extremes, courage, insecurity, ambition and danger.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Oscar Pistorius is spending his 24th night in prison after being found guilty of culpable homicide or manslaughter for killing his girlfriend,

Reeva Steenkamp. Prosecutors have since appealed the verdict and five-year sentence, a move that might drag the case back into court.

And two new books on this explosive issue have just been published. In "Reeva: A Mother's Story," June Steenkamp writes about her grief and

her view of how this happened to her daughter.

And in "Chase Your Shadow: The Trials of Oscar Pistorius," journalist John Carlin examines that question by looking at Pistorius' life from

childhood to the courtroom. He may, of course, be best known until now for his book, "Playing the Enemy," which became the masterful film, "Invictus,"

about an iconic South African rugby match.

Now he's taken on the Paralympian Blade Runner and joins me here in the studio to speak for the first time about the book that's coming out on

the 17th of November.

So thank you for joining me. Welcome to the program.

First and foremost, what judgment did you come away with after all this investigation into Oscar Pistorius?

JOHN CARLIN, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: Well, as regards the incident on Valentine's Night when he shot at his girlfriend, I was asked so many times

in the course of the writing of the book, "What do you think? Do you think he intentionally killed her?"

Most people who ask me that question have already made up their minds. And I sort of rather confuse people by saying, "I simply do not know."

And I honestly don't think even the judge, who found him guilty of culpable homicide, if you really pin her down in the intimacy of her home,

what do you really, really think happened, I think she'd have to say she doesn't know.

The point is on the evidence that was provided in court that was a legitimate, I think, judgment to reach and certainly on the evidence in

court, you could not conclude that, you know, he had intentionally killed his girlfriend.

But what the ultimate truth is.

AMANPOUR: And yet you did discover all sorts of stories from his birth, all the way through his schooling and up to being the Paralympian

star that he is, you know, fits of rage, some bad temper. And let me just read you a little bit about what Reeva's mother, June, said.

She basically said, "It was Reeva's bad luck that she met him because sooner or later he would have killed someone. I do believe that."

That's an excerpt from her mother's story.

Do you believe that?

CARLIN: Look, I mean --

AMANPOUR: Forget the intentional and the -- but the fact of who he was and the rage that even you describe?

CARLIN: There's a rage. But the point is, I mean, it's such a difficult process. It's a hypothetical question, you know, you're raising

there, Christiane. The thing is that he is -- what I found is that he's an immensely complex figure.

When I heard back on Valentine's Day last year that this had happened, my first reaction was to do the fact check. My second one, obviously he

killed her intentionally. Obviously it was some kind of a jealous rage.

But then I started probing the thing, looking into his character. And I realized how fearful and insecure he was. And what a man of extremes he

is. I mean, look at him. He is the most extraordinary story in the history of sport, amputated legs at 11 months old, runs in the Olympic

Games at 25 years old.

And he's a man of extremes in all senses. You know, he does have a bad temper, but he's also immensely polite and courteous. He's also

extraordinarily kind. He's also very, very hotheaded. You know, there's all these different elements of his character, which makes him really quite

fascinating.

AMANPOUR: I thought what was really interesting in your book, certainly in the excerpts about his schooling in Pretoria, at the boys'

school in Pretoria, he came across this headmaster there, who, at one point, was very close to him and watched him progress through this, "I will

not surrender," young boy all the way up to his triumph in Athens.

Describe that a little bit. And how actually Oscar came back a little big for his boots.

CARLIN: Well, on the one hand, what his mother really sort of -- and his mother's a critical figure in his life. And his mother was the

person who just convinced him, right from the word go, you know, you are able to do what any boy can do.

And he goes to this very tough boarding school, where he had to play rugby, where he had to go on long treks, you know, over mountains and in

the desert heat. And he just kept going, despite having terrible blisters, bleeding stumps and you know, there was this extraordinary drive in him.

And you could see there the seeds of this extraordinary competitor.

But then, yes. He won gold in the Paralympics in Athens, 17 years old, and instantly he's famous. He's rich. He's on the cover of women's

magazines; girls are interested in him.

And his -- the headmaster attempted to sort of ground him and say, look, you've got to put your schooling -- because he hadn't finished his

school yet, you know. He had a year to go.

And the headmaster succeeded in having -- just despite some hard or vicious clashes, which Pistorius was very rude to the headmaster. But the

sense you get is that he never had a figure like that in the rest of his life to keep him grounded, to remind him, you know, you're Oscar. There's

this famous guy, Oscar Pistorius, but there's a real Oscar here.

And nobody allowed like -- he was seen with so many celebrities and famous sports men, it's how the wealth and the fame sort of contaminates

the person, kind of takes it over. And I think this happened to a significant degree with Pistorius.

AMANPOUR: You were in the trial when the verdict was read and all of that.

You observed this -- again, this tortured figure as he was actually getting the news -- that was not the worst news in his life. He wasn't

convicted of murder.

CARLIN: And even so, I actually -- the verdict itself, I managed to swing this extraordinary seat in the courtroom, very, very, very close to

him. And yes, he was sort of weeping and he was just tortured. And I think it was because you know, whenever he relives what happened that

night, he just gets into this terrible state.

People wondered watching this on TV whether it was playacting. Well, those of us who were in court, unless you had a very, very biased opinion,

we were pretty convinced this was for real. You don't vomit playacting, which is what he was doing in court.

But I think also in the end, this sort of anguished expression that he had, even as the good news was beginning to unfold, I think was also an

expression of immense relief, the fact is that he got the best possible verdict that he could realistically have expected.

AMANPOUR: And finally and very quickly, do you think he'll spend five years in jail?

CARLIN: Well, it depends on the appeal (INAUDIBLE) you mentioned before. The appeal could change the conviction, which, in turn, would --

if the conviction goes up to murder, then the sentence would go up.

So as it stands now, I'm fairly reliably told that he's not going to spend an awful lot more than a year in jail and then be under house arrest.

AMANPOUR: Fascinating. It says so much about South Africa as well. Wish we had more time to talk. This book coming out on Monday.

CARLIN: Correct.

AMANPOUR: John Carlin, thanks so much for joining me.

CARLIN: My pleasure.

AMANPOUR: And our next guest hit the spotlight three decades ago, charming fans around the world with his husky vocals and electrifying

concerts. One of his most famous songs, featured in the 1991 film, "Robin Hood," it topped the global charts and remained at number 1 here in the

U.K. for 16 consecutive weeks.

(VIDEO CLIP, "(EVERYTHING I DO) I DO IT FOR YOU")

AMANPOUR: But who knew that Bryan Adams got behind the lens, too. We'll ask him why in just a moment.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, this week, the world over remembered those who died in battle, stretching all the way back 100 years to World

War I. But now imagine the courage and sacrifice of those who do return being celebrated rather than shunned: the walking wounded with horrific

life-changing injuries. A new exhibition in London by singer and photographer Bryan Adams, of young British service men and women injured on

duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, was opened this week by Prince Harry, who himself did several tours of duty in Afghanistan. He chatted with some of

the veterans, who had inspired Bryan Adams to tell their stories. And as they say and as we found, a picture tells a thousand words.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So Bryan, as we're looking at this, why did you decide to do this?

Where did this come from inside of you?

ADAMS: The idea of putting this all together was important because it -- there was a time when people were starting to see soldiers coming back

and seeing them on the High Street. There might have been a fallacy at one point that people were just going to go into Iraq and they were going to

walk out. And it was going to be fine.

But it wasn't the case. And the people started coming back, terribly wounded. And I think when the general public realized that was happening,

the face of war really changed in Britain and probably around the world.

AMANPOUR: This one is extraordinary. He's almost preening. He's almost saying, "Look at me. Dare to see my disfigurement."

ADAMS: First of all, he's quite a handsome guy to start with. But he's taken his body and tattooed it and at his belly button here, he's got

a thing that says, "Unscarred," because he feels that even though he is scarred, he's come out of it unscarred.

AMANPOUR: Can I just ask you to come over here? I see you standing there and obviously you are one of the models, so to speak.

ADAMS: How are you.

MARK ORMROD, VETERAN: You all right?

ADAMS: Yes, good, thank you.

AMANPOUR: How do you feel, seeing yourself here like that?

This is an amazing picture.

ORMROD: Very surreal to be -- see yourself immortalized on this canvas. It's an honor.

AMANPOUR: What happened to you?

ORMROD: So I was with the Royal Marines in 2007 in Afghanistan. And (INAUDIBLE) when I stood on a (INAUDIBLE) explosive device.

AMANPOUR: And how is your life now?

ORMROD: (INAUDIBLE). It's a bit awesome.

AMANPOUR: It is?

ORMROD: It is.

AMANPOUR: That's great.

What do you, Mark, want people to know about service and sacrifice?

ORMROD: You know, a lot (INAUDIBLE). You know, it is, it's true. Don't walk their weight (ph). You know, we're not ashamed of the scars

that we wear. You know, they're a constant reminder for us. And a lot of us wear it proudly.

AMANPOUR: Well, here is this amazing picture of Rick.

Where did you get your wounds?

SGT. RICK CLEMENT: Afghanistan.

AMANPOUR: And lest we forget, there were women, of course, always women on the front lines as well. And that is another amazing pose, if I

could say so. I think there's only one woman in this whole exhibition.

ADAMS: And a lot of the other women that I did approach that had been injured didn't want to come. And I think for some of them, it might have

been because they've gone to have families and they don't want to be in the spotlight. So we were lucky to find Hannah (ph).

There was a quote by George Bush, which I don't remember the exact words, but something to do, the effect of the world is going to be a safer

place after this. Nothing could be further than the truth, as we look back now.

AMANPOUR: Bryan Adams, thank you very much.

ADAMS: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: And that is it for our program tonight. Follow us online. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

END