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Syrian Sheikh Condemns ISIS Execution; Sectarian Violence in Central African Republic; Imagine a World

Aired November 17, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: faith leaders push back as ISIS executes yet another Western aid worker. A prominent

Sunni imam from Syria tells me that Muslims must speak out even louder against the terrorists.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUHAMMAD AL-YAQOUBI, SYRIAN MUSLIM CLERIC: ISIS has no nationality. Its nationality is terror, savagery and hatred.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Also ahead, the Catholic priest who put his life on the line to protect thousands of besieged Muslims in the war-torn

Central African Republic.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Tonight a top Syrian Muslim cleric tells me that Abu Baker al- Baghdadi, the head of ISIS, is, quote, "going to hell," following yet another of ISIS' brutal public executions.

Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi says the most urgent task for all Muslims right now is to spread the real truth about ISIS and its limitless horrors.

In their latest decapitation video, 25-year-old Peter Abdul-Rahman Kassig is dead and a column of Syrian soldiers are also beheaded. And ISIS

tries to portray itself as the group for all Muslims. It claims oaths of allegiance have come to its leader, Abu Baker al-Baghdadi from Algeria to

Yemen.

And as allied airstrikes and rocket forces are pushing ISIS back out of some territory like Baiji, my next guest has signed a fatwa against

Baghdadi. He preached at one of the most important mosques in the Middle East, the Grand Omayyad Mosque of Damascus, and today he tweeted, "We

condemn the killing of Peter Kassig and the Syrians. ISIS is the most extreme group in Islam. We must end it and save Syria and the world."

He joined me moments ago from Washington, D.C.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Sheikh al-Yaqoubi, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining me tonight.

Thank you very much. It's a horrible day to speak about killing when we have to appear only to announce this unfortunate event.

I believe we have to speak loud and we unequivocally condemn all terrorist actions, especially now that an American innocent citizen, Peter

Kassig. I think we have to speak loud and very clear that Muslims and Islam have nothing to do with this.

AMANPOUR: Yes, Sheikh --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Sorry, I hate to interrupt you; I know you're offering your condolences.

But I really do need to ask you, then, how is it then that they have so many recruits that they are going gangbusters through Iraq and Syria?

AL-YAQOUBI: Indeed, you're absolutely right. This is the main question. The ideology always existed. People from the beginning of Islam

accused even the cousin of the Prophet of Islam. This is Ali, the fourth caliph, accused him of being non-Muslim and they killed him.

And we need to work really, step our work to fight this ideology and also to deploy this ISIS from any means to recruit.

And here I should highlight the fact that we signed -- and I cosigned a letter to al-Baghdadi, which refutes the ideological foundation of ISIS,

banning every Muslim from joining it and making it clear that this is non- Islamic, anti-Islam and we must put an end to it.

AMANPOUR: Now, Sheikh, many of your fellow leaders and many Muslim leaders have said precisely that, that it is not Islamic and it's not a

state. It shouldn't be called Islamic State.

However, it is doing all this in the name of Islam. It is gathering recruits.

Tell me what you think is the purpose of the increasingly violent nature of these beheadings of Westerners -- and the latest was very, very

violent.

AL-YAQOUBI: Indeed. Indeed, it is very violent and I believe they just want to show hatred. These people, by the way, they are not Syrians.

These people are bringing terror, savagery and hatred from all around the world, just in order to take revenge, they claim, in the name of Islam for

the Syrian people who have been killed for 3.5 years.

Syrian people have nothing to do with these people and gangsters who have come from around the world. This is why I believe we need to topple

the Assad regime. And this is the key point here. As long as the Assad regime continues its atrocities against the Syrian people, you see more

recruits and more savagery happening and taking place.

We need to put an end to this and otherwise we might see just ISIS invading Damascus. And this is the worst of everything that could happen.

AMANPOUR: Now you say toppling Assad has to happen in order to stop this. But what they are saying is that they are the only group that is

avenging, as you mentioned, all the civilians that are being killed by the Assad regime, that they are the only ones doing what everybody is just

talking about.

Again, that may or may not be true. But how does one punch through that identity, that ideology that they seem to be using to effect right

now?

AL-YAQOUBI: We need more work, Christiane. There is not much work or not enough work on the ideological level to convince Muslims around the

world. I need -- we -- I think we need in every Friday sermon that the ulama speak out loudly, telling Muslims around the world, these people do

not represent Islam and their claims are just based on falsehood.

AMANPOUR: Again, I want to talk about this gruesome video, and you've probably seen them all over the last -- this is the fifth Westerner who's

been beheaded in a very short period of time.

The usual step is to put yet another Westerner alive alongside the one that they're killing, to say this is next.

But they didn't this time. They haven't done that to John Cantlie, who we know is in ISIS captivity.

What do you read from that?

AL-YAQOUBI: Well, probably they don't have any more, but I believe here that the most important point -- they're trying to send the message --

they want to send it through the state -- is they want to fight the world. They are challenging the world. They absolutely are hit, and severely hit

now and they are disparate and they want to fight to the end.

The problem with these people is they don't care if they are killed because they think they are martyrs. They're going to be in hell, of

course; every Muslim knows about this.

AMANPOUR: You wrote a letter to al-Baghdadi, who is the head of ISIS.

He's not going to listen to you, is he? And his followers aren't going to listen to you.

AL-YAQOUBI: Well, we don't care if he listens or not. What we care about is Muslims around the world who should listen and see the facts which

we are presenting in this letter to refute and destroy their ideological bases and foundation of ISIS.

We care about Muslims around the world. We don't care about him. He's going to hell. And I'm sure he's going to be -- to be killed, even by

his -- some of his followers sooner or later. There's no -- there's no end unless we stop people from joining ISIS. This is what we aimed at in our

letter to al-Baghdadi.

AMANPOUR: Do you think that the current campaign against ISIS, the airstrikes or the building up of the Iraqi forces, for instance, is having

an effect?

They've taken Baiji back. They've taken -- the Iraqi forces have taken back some territory.

Is that having an effect, do you think?

AL-YAQOUBI: Definitely.

And the killing of Peter Kassig and Steve and James before is just an expression of the disparate situation they are finding themselves in after

being hit.

But of course there have been mistakes and we need, I think, to step up the strategy on the ground to fight ISIS on the ground. They have

headquarters; they seized major cities and they are invading. They're recruiting a lot of people. They have a huge army. They have a

intelligence network. And all of that should be destroyed on the ground.

AMANPOUR: How do they manage to keep their credibility when they behead a Muslim?

Peter Kassig had converted to Islam. Now we don't know, under pressure or what, but his own parents call him Abdul-Rahman, not Peter

anymore.

How do they justify beheading a Muslim?

AL-YAQOUBI: They don't justify -- there's no justification because here is the point. They consider anyone who works for democracy as

heretic. They consider anyone who works with non-Muslims as an apostate. So there is no justification. They're just against the world. They're

against Muslims, they're against everyone. They have their own group.

You know what, ISIS has no nationality. Its nationality is terror, savagery and hatred. And when hatred spreads like this and takes over the

hearts of people, you see the results, as in this video and other videos.

Let me express my deepest condolences to Peter's/Abdul-Rahman's parents and family members, friends, and to the American society as I

expressed before my condolences when Steve and James also were murdered in that savagery way and also to the Syrian families because many Syrians have

been killed also, together with Peter and before by the regime and by ISIS.

And I hope that an end to this conflict soon will be put and serious action can be taken on the ground to get rid of the Assad and get rid of

ISIS and unify the country, unite the country again to fight terrorism.

AMANPOUR: And I guess finally, in this plea that you've just made, what is going to stop the world thinking that if we get rid of Assad, this

kind of savagery is what is going to replace it?

AL-YAQOUBI: Syrians are not like this. Syria is an example of moderate Islam and tolerance, Jewish people, Christians, Shiites and all

sects live side by side.

And we need this long history to come back and Syrians are ready to heal their wounds and put their hands together against all odds and come

out as a democratic nation, bringing freedom and dignity to the Syrian people and fighting terrorism wherever it exists in the world.

AMANPOUR: Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi, thank you very much indeed for joining us tonight.

AL-YAQOUBI: Thank you, Christiane, it's a great honor. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And there is a lot happening in the faith world today. The Church of England said that it will allow female bishops for the first time

in its history and it could happen as early as next year, creating a church where half of its 25 million followers can now help lead from the front

into the future.

And after a break, we turn to the faith and the heroism at the heart of one of Africa's darkest crises.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

And our faith focus turns to African now, where a battle between Muslims, Seleka militias and anti-Muslim, anti-balaka militias have caused

a confusing and vicious little war.

The Central African Republic is one of the continent's poorest countries. Thousands have been killed and hundreds of thousands have fled

their homes and fled the country.

One president was forced to resign and another, more popular, took office. France and the United Nations have sent peacekeepers to this

former French colony. But some of the highest heroism has come from ordinary individuals, like Father Bernard Kinvi, who runs a Catholic

mission hospital in the northwest of the country.

As predominantly Christian anti-balaka forces overran his town, his hospital became a refuge for Muslims who are fleeing the violence. He

treated the injured, pleaded with the killers to stop the bloodshed and buried the dead.

Father Bernard was recently honored by Human Rights Watch right here in London. And on his first trip outside Africa, he and the organization's

Peter Bouckaert joined me here in the studio to talk about the crisis.

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AMANPOUR: Peter Bouckaert, Father Bernard, welcome to the program.

Let me ask you, Father, what are things like in your village of Bossemptele right now?

FATHER BERNARD KINVI (through translator): At present, it's a precarious calm insofar as the anti-bakala (sic) (INAUDIBLE) armed.

So we can't really speak in real terms of peace, but just of a precarious calm.

AMANPOUR: Peter, here we are, several months after the international community deployed peacekeepers.

Have they made any difference at all?

PETER BOUCKAERT, HRW: Well, the peacekeepers face a very difficult task in the Central African Republic. There basically is no governance in

most of the country. The state has just disappeared. There's no detention facilities.

And they have to try and reestablish law and order in a country as big as France with just 12,000 troops. We see very little impact at the

moment. There's still a lot of insecurity and killings taking place in the Central African Republic.

AMANPOUR: Would it be worse if they weren't there?

BOUCKAERT: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we need to understand that a Rwanda was averted in the Central African Republic, the kind of

massacres we witnessed 20 years ago because of the presence of these peacekeepers.

AMANPOUR: When the anti-balakas came to your village, to Bossemptele, to commit the massacres, what happened?

What did you do?

KINVI (through translator): When we understood that the anti-balaka were there, we wanted to try and negotiate, to see if they would stop any

armed confrontation. But they wouldn't listen to us.

And then there was confrontation. Some Muslims managed to hide; some managed to get away and some got into the hospital. But many went into the

bush as well and were not able to flee the conflict. And unfortunately all those who were not able to flee died. They were massacred. They were

killed.

And I found children. I found people who had escaped. I found invalids. I found wounded and I brought them to the hospital. And in

order to get them to the hospital, which -- it was a very complicated process to do this -- we had taken just a pushcart, if you like. And we

got two or three people into this pushcart and very quickly we were able to get them there.

I remember that there were crippled. They couldn't walk. I had to take a crippled teenager on my back. And I brought her by moonlight in

order to shelter her.

They wanted to kill a young boy of 13 years of age. They wanted to kill him. And their interpretation was that he would grow. He would grow

up into a man and should be killed.

So I said to them, OK. Well, first, you'll have to kill me. Kill me first.

And then we went back again to see what was there. And there were bodies. There were -- and amongst those bodies there were people who had

not died.

So I went with my colleague priest (ph) and we picked up the bodies in these pushcarts to take them back. And I had to put them in holes in the

ground because we couldn't necessarily keep digging.

And I remember two people had died and they'd been lying there for two weeks. The bodies had been totally decomposed.

And that's how we found them.

AMANPOUR: It is a dramatic story. Here's one priest in one far-flung corner of the Central African Republic.

How important is Father Bernard's intervention?

BOUCKAERT: You know, I think we need to understand that at the time of all of this violence, the state had just disappeared and the

peacekeepers were not there to try to stop the killings.

So the only people who could stand in the middle and confront the killers and say stop, stop, this needs to end, were the priests, not just

Father Bernard, but other priests around the country as well.

And they played an incredibly courageous role in standing in front of the killers and treating the wounded and protecting the Muslim communities

from the killers until they were able to go safely to neighboring Cameroon.

AMANPOUR: Are there any Muslims left in the Central African Republic?

BOUCKAERT: In the western part of the country, there's less than half a dozen small Muslim communities who are left. They're surrounded by

international peacekeepers to prevent them from being killed.

And most of them also want to flee to Cameroon. And we have asked the U.N. and the interim authorities in the Central African Republic to allow

them to flee, because it really is not alive to be sitting on top of a hilltop for months, unable to move outside the protection of the

peacekeepers, because you will be killed.

AMANPOUR: This has been going on for more than a year now. One president had to resign; a new one, who is quite popular, the mayor of

Bangui, is president.

Has she managed to do anything?

I know you say the state has practically collapsed.

BOUCKAERT: Well, just a few weeks ago, her government tried to arrest two leaders of the anti-balaka militia in Bangui. And after the arrest,

the anti-balaka put up roadblocks and actually attacked minister peacekeepers; one U.N. Pakistani officer was killed in the attacks.

And the government had to take down -- Samba-Panza had to release these two anti-balaka leaders and appoint an anti-balaka representative as

a minister.

So we really see --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: So the criminals are in charge of the prisons?

BOUCKAERT: -- the criminals are in charge of this country; and Samba- Panza may be trying to do the right thing. We would like her to speak out more against this violence and against corruption.

But she's unable; her maneuvering room is extremely limited. And this country continues to descend into absolute chaos.

AMANPOUR: It's a remarkable story and I wonder whether either of you have any hope for the future.

BOUCKAERT: I do because of this man and other people like him. We can make a difference in the Central African Republic. We've talked about

those who died, but we forget about all those who were saved because of the actions of people like Father Bernard.

AMANPOUR: Where do you get the courage?

KINVI (through translator): From Jesus Christ.

AMANPOUR: I thought you would say that.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Father Bernard, thank you very much indeed.

And, Peter, thank you very much indeed for being here.

BOUCKAERT: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, we stay focused on Africa and music deployed in the fight against another killer, the killer disease Ebola.

The hardest-hit Western nations still need massive medical assistance and one of the continent's most tried and tested friends is pitching in to help

again.

Thirty years ago, Bob Geldof led a musical charge against famine in Ethiopia, lassoing the industry's greats into a supergroup with a single,

Band Aid. It raised millions for the starving and Geldof ensured that every penny went to charity.

Now imagine a world where Africa's problems change but the rallying cry remains the same. Band Aid plus 30 for Ebola relief -- after this.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where pop stars and rock legends join voices once again to offer a helping hand.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): Band Aid's "Do They Know It's Christmas?" is the brainchild of Sir Bob Geldof and this year it's made a comeback

featuring some younger, fresher faces dominating Britain's music scene today.

The single is available now on iTunes and was put together to raise money for desperately needed doctors, nurses and medical equipment in the

fight against Ebola in West Africa.

It's hard to believe it's been 30 years since the original was recorded in aid of chronic famine in Ethiopia, way on the opposite side of

the continent.

Some of the artists on this year's track weren't even born when this version was released in 1984. Others like U2's Bono feature on both.

(END VIDEO CLIP, "DO THEY KNOW IT'S CHRISTMAS?")

AMANPOUR: There have been two other incarnations of the song since, in 1989 to raise money once again to fight poverty, and in 2004 the song

came to life to benefit Sudan's war-ravaged Darfur region.

Sometimes only a song will do. Band Aid says their previous records raised over $230 million and if early figures are anything to go by, this

latest release shows no sign that Band Aid is slowing down.

Bob Geldof told British radio, quote, "Within four or five minutes, we had a million quid." That's over $1.5 million and counting, raised already

to help battle Ebola.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always watch us at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank you for

watching and goodbye from London.

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