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Amanpour

Outrage over U.S. Chokehold Case; Cracking Codes at Bletchley Park; Imagine a World

Aired December 04, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Fifty years ago en route to accepting his Nobel Peace Prize, America's civil rights leader, Martin

Luther King, stopped by St. Paul's Cathedral here in London to preach freedom and justice for all. Fifty years later, his country still grapples

with the pain of injustice and inequality.

And tonight we discuss yet another stunning grand jury decision.

Also ahead, my interview with the formidable British peer who helped crack the Nazi's World War II code. At 92, Baroness Trumpington is still

speaking her mind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARONESS TRUMPINGTON, CONSERVATIVE PEER, HOUSE OF LORDS: I thought he was bloody rude, frankly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

They are the words echoing around the United States: "I might be next," the silent sound of despair from one black American. Another day,

another decision that's sending shock waves around the world as another United States grand jury decides not to prosecute a white police officer

for killing an unarmed black man.

Forty-three-year-old Eric Garner was confronted by police in New York for selling loose cigarettes last summer, a minor crime at most. Police

claim Garner resisted arrest, but their version belied what happened in plain sight. For unlike the killing in Ferguson, this confrontation was

all caught on tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC GARNER, CIGARETTE VENDOR: Everyone standing here will tell you I didn't do nothing. I did not sell nothing. Because every time you see me,

you want to harass me. You want to stop me because I sell cigarettes. I'm minding my business, Officer.

(INAUDIBLE) touching me. (INAUDIBLE).

(OFF MIKE COMMENTS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. (INAUDIBLE). Get down. (INAUDIBLE).

GARNER: I can't breathe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands (INAUDIBLE).

I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): It is shocking, really, these scenes. And Eric Garner's dying words, " I can't breathe," have become a rallying cry

for protesters. The New York medical examiner had ruled Garner's death a homicide, but last night his mother's expressed disbelief that the officer

who killed her son wouldn't even face trial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GWEN CARR, ERIC GARNER'S MOTHER: I don't know what video they were looking at. Evidently it wasn't the same one that the rest of the world

was looking at.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): All New Yorkers of many races, already raw with outrage over Ferguson, took to the streets last night in dramatic but

peaceful resistance. They blocked traffic and they held a "die-in" at Grand Central Station. Even New York mayor Bill de Blasio seemed stunned,

himself married to a black woman. He spoke the painful truth about how far America still has to travel.

BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR OF NEW YORK: They said black lives matter. And they said it because it had to be said. It's a phrase that should never

have to be said. It should be self-evident. We are dealing with centuries of racism that have brought us to this day. That is how profound the

crisis is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now Mayor de Blasio and the New York City police commissioner are expected to discuss new police tactics.

So I ask my guests tonight where does America go next?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Congressman Hakeem Jeffries and our own CNN legal analyst, Jeff Toobin, thank you for joining me.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D), N.Y.: Thank you for having us.

AMANPOUR: Congressman, let me go to you first, because you represent several mostly black districts in Brooklyn, New York.

What was your reaction when you heard this decision not to indict?

JEFFRIES: Well, the decision not to indict was a stunning miscarriage of justice. It was a disgrace, an outrage. And in many ways, it's a stain

on the credibility of American democracy, which, of course, provides through the 14th Amendment equal protection under the law.

And myself and many other people across the country are concerned that that wonderful principle is not applicable as it relates to encounters

between police officers and young, unarmed African Americans who are the victims of excessive force.

AMANPOUR: Congressman, what do you want either the New York legal process or a federal process to do now?

JEFFRIES: Well, it's an important step forward that the Department of Justice has decided to commence an immediate civil rights investigation.

That needs to be a full and fair investigation and hopefully it will lead to an indictment so we can have a trial and everyone can understand what

actually took place from a legal perspective as opposed from the secretive grand jury proceeding that appears to have been manipulated perhaps by this

prosecutor.

We also need to look at the fact that there is a conflict that is inherent in the relationship between police and prosecutors, based on the

fact that prosecutors rely law enforcement officials, each and every day, in order to make cases.

And so it becomes very difficult for the prosecutor to move forward in an impartial fashion when they are being asked to try a police officer for

the excessive use of force. We've seen this over and over and over again.

We saw it in Ferguson. Now we see it in Staten Island and we really need an independent process moving forward. And that's one of the reforms

that I hope come out of this tragedy.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Indeed, we did see it in Ferguson.

And let me now turn to Jeff Toobin because, in Ferguson, Jeff, when we talked last week, is that a non-indictment also came down.

You said that that was legally defensible. But you've just been tweeting that this is an ugly day for New York. You don't believe the

grand jury process result was defensible this time.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I do think the cases are very different. In Ferguson, Missouri, there was a life-and-death struggle

between Michael Brown, the ultimate victim, and officer Darren Wilson, that tragically ended with Michael Brown's death.

Here in Staten Island, you had an arrest for an extremely minor crime, something that most people don't get arrested for. They just get a ticket,

a citation. And here you have a situation where the police, for no good reason that I could see, took this man down, took Eric Garner down in a way

that caused his death.

And the idea that that did not lead to any criminal charges really seems troubling and questionable.

AMANPOUR: And let me ask both of you, because, unlike Ferguson, there was a camera here. Everything was videoed and we heard the audio. We saw

exactly what went on.

So you, Congressman, you know, after Ferguson, people said let's have cameras on all police officers.

What do you both think about whether even cameras are any good, any defense?

First you, Congressman.

JEFFRIES: Well, this video is living, breathing proof that there was probable cause to indict for a crime. Obviously there's a deep-seated,

underlying issue in the context of race relations in America that we've got to grapple with and that's what the no indictment, the no true bill

reveals, notwithstanding the video in this case.

TOOBIN: I think cameras are still a good idea, even though as the congressman points out, they're not an answer to all the issues that have

afflicted the American criminal justice system, literally, for centuries.

And just for an international audience, I should say that the crime for which Eric Garner was arrested was the purchase -- was the sale,

apparently, of individual cigarettes without paying taxes on those sales.

That was the so-called crime at the heart of this case and that was not a crime that justified, I think, this sort of use of force.

AMANPOUR: And furthermore, as we all know, that chokehold is banned in New York. It's been banned since 1993, although it is not technically

illegal.

Jeff, you tweeted today it is not a crime to be big and black in America.

Congressman Jeffries, how are we going to get around this? Because it goes to the heart of the fear factor.

JEFFRIES: I'm thankful that Jeff pointed that out and it's also important to notice, as he's indicated, that Eric Garner was targeted for

the sale of loose cigarettes. That is not a capital offense. In fact, at worse, it's an administrative violation.

And so we've got to revisit our policing policies in America that lead to this type of aggressive behavior.

TOOBIN: It's worth pointing out that crime in New York has dramatically, dramatically declined over the past 20 years. You know,

you're talking about --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Well, which made this kind of arrest even more incredible.

TOOBIN: Well, that's right. And it's a tribute in part to the thousands of great police officers in New York City that crime is down so

much, which makes the actions of not great police officers, in fact, police officers who appear to me to have committed crimes all the more outrageous.

And that's why I think one reason at least there's so much upset about what -- the grand jury's decision in Staten Island.

AMANPOUR: I want to put this to both of you, too, because the entertainer and the culture figure, Chris Rock, has given quite a trenchant

interview to "New York" magazine, in which he talked about race relations.

And he basically said, "Here's the thing: when we talk about race relations in America or racial progress it is all nonsense. There are no

race relations. White people were crazy, now they are not as crazy. To say that black people have made progress would be to say they deserve what

happened to them before."

He says about President Obama, "That's not black progress. That is white process (sic)."

Congressman Jeffries, do you agree?

JEFFRIES: We've gone from slavery to Emancipation to Reconstruction and then a backlash that resulted in Jim Crow, which was basically

institutionalized segregation in the Deep South.

We then eradicated that to some degree with the 1964 Civil Rights Act, 1965 Voting Rights Act. But then there was another backlash to the efforts

to make integration a reality all across the country: anti-busing, anti- affirmative action. And so every time we've made progress in America, and we have, there's always a backlash to that progress.

And so the election of Barack Obama was historic and will remain historic. But clearly, while we've come a long way, we still have a long

way to go. And this is not a post-racial America.

And the instances in Ferguson and Cleveland, with a young 12-year-old boy being gunned down by a police officer and, then, of course, in Staten

Island, show that we still have work to do.

AMANPOUR: What do you tell your children when they may come across a police officer?

JEFFRIES: Well, this was one of the toughest things in the aftermath of the grand jury's decision not to indict. I've got two sons. One is 13

and the other is 10. And I was really struggling as a father as to what to say to my oldest son in particular about what this verdict or failure to

indict means in terms of his everyday interactions on the streets of New York.

I was actually comforted by the fact that I called and he got home safely. And I've got to worry every day about what could happen to him,

not just from the robbers, but from a bad apple on the police department.

I do want to say, as Jeff has said, that the overwhelming majority of New York City police officers are to be commended for the great work that

they've done in partnership with the community in reducing crime. But there are bad apples on the police force. And when you unleash them

without consequence, you see the type of tragedy that results.

AMANPOUR: And Jeff, just to Congressman Jeffries' note, this is not a post-racial America, that whites need to make progress, not blacks, as

Chris Rock said.

TOOBIN: Well, and that's right. And I think, you know, so much of the tension that involves race relations in this country involves law

enforcement because if you go to a prison in America, as I have many times in my journalistic career, your immediate impression is these prisons are

almost all black people inside them.

And this country is not majority or even close to majority black people. And that is something that is, to me, the most stark evidence of

how this country, while having come an enormously far way, has a long way to go as well.

AMANPOUR: Jeff Toobin and Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, thank you very much for joining me.

JEFFRIES: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: From a life cut short to a life well lived, helping the code breakers at Bletchley Park in World War II. She has met every post-

war U.K. prime minister as well as Bette Davis, Jackie Kennedy and Fidel Castro as well as the Assads. We speak to Baroness Trumpington after a

break.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

My next guest, Baroness Trumpington, has lived a thousand lives, starting in Bletchley Park, Britain's top secret codebreaking headquarters

during the Second World War, a story that's now been immortalized in an Oscar-tipped film, "The Imitation Game," which tells of Britain's

mathematical genius, Alan Turing, who helped crack Nazi Germany's Enigma code, but then committed suicide after the war, having been persecuted for

his homosexuality.

Baroness Trumpington was 18 back then and now at 92 vividly remembers those critical times and with a new book out, the feisty British peer

joined me in the studio to talk codes, politics and a gesture that made her an Internet sensation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Baroness Trumpington, welcome to the program.

TRUMPINGTON: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: You are a legend in your own lifetime. And one of the things that got you great street cred and went all over the world was that

famous putdown you made with the two fingers in Parliament.

What was that all about? We have this video and it's amazing. Tell me what was that.

TRUMPINGTON: Well, the noble lord was being -- he was having me on, of course. But he was making fun of noble baronesses such as me. And I

took exception to it.

But I thought I'd been terribly discreet.

(LAUGHTER)

TRUMPINGTON: I have never yet discovered where the cameras are in the House of Lords. So I had no idea that they were filming, no idea at all.

AMANPOUR: So you thought you could give him the number one, so to speak and --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMPINGTON: -- very, very discreetly, you know.

(LAUGHTER)

TRUMPINGTON: But anyway, it wasn't so discreet, I discovered.

AMANPOUR: And it was because he was talking about your age, right?

TRUMPINGTON: Exactly. And I thought he was bloody rude, frankly.

AMANPOUR: Well, as you say, he was probably having you on. And he was actually -- I would suspect -- trying to compliment you on your

unbelievable record of accomplishment.

TRUMPINGTON: Of course he wasn't.

(LAUGHTER)

TRUMPINGTON: But we did go outside and share a rather risque joke or two.

AMANPOUR: We are going to take you all the way back to your childhood and actually to the Second World War, because of this fantastic film that's

just come out about Allen Turing, who cracked the Enigma code during World War II. And you happened to be working at Bletchley Park at that time.

TRUMPINGTON: When I went there, there were about 400 people in the whole of Bletchley Park. When I left, there were 6,000. So it's quite a

difference. But you did not move out of the room that you worked in. There is a room such as the one I worked in.

AMANPOUR: This behind me?

TRUMPINGTON: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And you were one of those people.

TRUMPINGTON: And I was in a corner, typing away German submarine signals. But until the code was broken, it was -- you know, it was more

hope than achievement.

AMANPOUR: What was an 18-year-old girl like yourself doing translating German and whatever other language?

How did you even know it?

TRUMPINGTON: The man who interviewed me to go to Bletchley asked for me to speak French, yes; speak German, yes; speak Italian. Well, you don't

have to learn Italian, sir. All you do is add "-io" to the end of every word. And you know, and I was in.

AMANPOUR: What do you remember about that time?

And particularly with the film, "The Imitation Game" coming out, how important to you was Alan Turing?

TRUMPINGTON: Oh, he was incredibly important. In fact, he was our only hope of anything really, really coming out of all this. He was that

brainy.

And the sad thing was that his private life ended, that should never have done and wouldn't do so today. And I am forever grateful to the Queen

and the prime minister for pardoning him and, oh, if only, if only, you know, it hadn't been so awful that he killed himself.

AMANPOUR: Awful.

You were part of the campaign to get him pardoned.

TRUMPINGTON: Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: Why did it ring such a bell with you?

TRUMPINGTON: Because it was so unfair. It -- his private life had nothing to do with his work, for one thing. And the two got somehow or

other mixed up. But -- which it never should have happened.

AMANPOUR: You saw the film, "The Imitation Game;" how realistic was all of that?

TRUMPINGTON: I thought it was -- I thought it was absolutely excellent. I have one absolutely minor criticism that the girl who played

the part of the girlfriend was far too pretty but --

AMANPOUR: So Keira Knightley was much more beautiful than the real love interest?

TRUMPINGTON: I'm afraid so.

AMANPOUR: You are an incredibly feisty person, as I said. You were once awarded with the top cigar-smoking award.

We have amazing pictures of you and others in clouds of blue smoke.

How does that happen?

How come you like smoking cigars?

TRUMPINGTON: Oh, I love cigars. I think I'm very lucky to be alive and have a voice. But I loved the cigars. That was the ritzy side of

life.

AMANPOUR: What was your relationship like with Margaret Thatcher?

She brought you into the government, didn't she, and made you a minister.

TRUMPINGTON: Yes. Well, she and I got on extremely well. And I never gave into her because I had a role, really, and that was to argue

with her. But it was important because it gave her ammunition for when she was going to talk to other people who might have similar views that I held.

AMANPOUR: Two Iron Ladies. What is your view -- you are 92 years old now -- of the role of women in government, in Parliament, in all sorts of

professional associations today.

TRUMPINGTON: I don't like women being separated from men in these jobs and things. People are people. They're not women and men in -- when

it comes to work and the future. And I think it is invidious to say women and men. I mean, who cares?

AMANPOUR: You are half American.

TRUMPINGTON: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Would you like to see the next president of America being a woman?

(LAUGHTER)

TRUMPINGTON: If she's up to the job.

AMANPOUR: You called my number there, Baroness Trumpington, "Coming Up Trumps." Thank you very much indeed for joining me.

TRUMPINGTON: Thank you for having me here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And over the past seven decades, the baroness has met everyone who's anyone. But I didn't ask her whether she knew Nelson

Mandela, who died a year ago at the age of 95. South Africa's civil rights icon and former president left a lasting legacy. But what do the recent

events in Ferguson and New York say about his dream of equality for all under the law? Imagining a world like that, after a break.

In fact, we are now going to go back to New York where Mayor Bill de Blasio and the New York City police commissioner, Bill Bratton, are holding

a press conference on new police tactics in the wake of the death of Eric Garner. Let's listen.

BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR OF NEW YORK: -- on the relationship between police and community. And fundamental questions are being asked and

rightfully so about how we respect people's rights, how we reduce the use of force in relationship between police and community and each encounter

between police and community, how we get it right, how we move forward together.

This tragedy is raising a lot of tough questions. But there is tremendous resolve here in this city to answer those questions, to get it

right, to move forward. There's tremendous resolve here at the NYPD to find a way to draw closer to the community, to do things in a different

way, to do things in a new way.

This academy, this extraordinary facility, is, to me, a symbol of the future of this police force and the positive future of its relationship

with the community. Here in the training we just saw, the seeds are being planted for a very different reality.

And as a new group of leaders here, who have a vision for creating a partnership, for creating a reality that instills trust in the dynamics

between police and community, we need to build that trust. And people here are working on that every single day, and I want to commend them for that.

A lot of people demonstrated last night. They expressed their First Amendment rights; overwhelmingly the demonstrations were peaceful. And I

want to say the response by the NYPD was exactly the right one. It was smart. It was strategic. It was agile. A lot of restraint was shown and,

when necessary, arrests were made.

But you saw a very peaceful night in New York City; despite the frustration and the pain that so many people are feeling, you saw peaceful

protests. You saw a minimum of disruption. I give credit to everyone involved, but I particularly give credit to NYPD for having managed the

situation so appropriately.

In a city of 8.4 million people, emotion's tremendously high; there were only 80 arrests last night and the vast majority of those on minor

charges. And it's an example of how this city respects people's rights, respects their right to raise their voices and understands that's part of

what makes us a democracy.

We are proud of how we respect protests. We think this is the right way to do things. We will not tolerate, as we said yesterday, we will not

tolerate violence or disorder. But we think by showing respect for the democratic process that's one of the right ways of setting a tone that

keeps the protests peaceful.

I emphasize that the Garner family has spoken powerfully on the need to keep the peace. Michael Brown's family has spoken powerfully on this

point. The message from the people who are hurting the most is that violence will do no good. It will only set back the cause of reform.

I think a lot of people last night heard that message loud and clear and comported themselves appropriately.

But I do ask everyone, all New Yorkers and all of our visitors in this town, to respect the memory of Eric Garner, to respect the memory of

Michael Brown, to respect their families by expressing yourself only in peaceful means.

You're going to hear in a few minutes from Commissioner Bratton and several other key members of his team. I would like to acknowledge some

others and thank them for their extraordinary efforts, particularly in the last 24 hours.

I want to thank our Chief of Department Jimmy O'Neill, who, I think, did a fantastic job managing the situation last night. I would like to

thank our deputy commissioner, John Miller; assistant chief Theresa Shortell, who is also the commanding officer at the academy; Richard Dee,

deputy inspector and executive officer for the academy.

And again you'll hear from Commissioner Bratton, First Deputy Commissioner Tucker and Deputy Commissioner Julian in just a few minutes.

So a lot of people, as I said yesterday, felt a lot of pain, a lot of frustration. My message to the people is, take that pain and frustration

and work for change. The relationship between police and community has to change. The way we go about policing has to change, has to change in the

city. It has to change in this country.

I am fundamentally convinced it will change. People who feel aggrieved are asking for something simple. They're asking for the notion

of a society in which everyone is treated equally. It's a fundamental American value.

People want to believe in their core that they will be treated like their neighbor or like someone in a totally different neighborhood;

regardless of the color of their skin or what religion they are or what they look like, they will be treated the same. That is what people deeply

desire. They want to know that they'll be safe. They want to know as they ever have an encounter with the police that they will be respected.

END