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Amanpour
Rising Immigration Fears Reshape European Politics; Middle East's Wars Send Refugees To Almost Certain Death On High Seas Off Europe's Coast; Imagine a World
Aired January 05, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: rising immigration fears that are reshaping Europe's politics. Dramatic protests in Germany
catch the government by surprise. But the interior minister tells me do not overestimate them.
And off Europe's coastline, the Middle East ranging wars send refugees to almost certain death on the high seas. The head of the world's immigration
watchdog joins me live.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Germany, which is Europe's economic giant and bastion of tolerance, enters the New Year rocked by more protests and more worries about a resurgence of
right-wing nationalism. Thousands of demonstrators have again marched through Dresden and now they've appeared for the first time in Cologne and
Berlin as well.
They're led by the group PEGIDA or Patriotic Europeans against the Islamization of the West, which Chancellor Merkel blasted last week for
prejudice and hatred.
But as their numbers rise with each weekly protest, the city of Cologne has now decided to fight back with its cathedral, one of the country's famous
landmarks, tonight switched off its lights to protest the protesters. Germany does receive most of the refugees entering the E.U., but this wave
of immigration phobia has hit France, the U.K. and other countries as well. And all have seen populist parties make serious political inroads.
Germany's interior minister, Thomas de Maiziere, admits that they have to do a better job of fighting back against a dangerous and false agenda. And
he joined me earlier from Berlin.
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AMANPOUR: Minister, welcome to the program. Thank you for joining us tonight.
THOMAS DE MAIZIERE, GERMAN INTERIOR MINISTER: Thank you. It's a great pleasure for me as well.
AMANPOUR: Minister, we are all agog watching these demonstrations continue week after week.
What does this say about Germany's famous tolerance for refugees and immigrants?
DE MAIZIERE: We shouldn't overestimate that this is itself an original phenomenon, although it does take place in my hometown. All the other
efforts in other cities to have similar sort of demonstrations failed. The organizations are very far right.
AMANPOUR: You say we shouldn't overestimate what is happening. But even some of your own government officials say that they were surprised by this.
Every Monday, these demonstrations getting bigger and bigger.
And, sir, 34 percent, according to a "Der Spiegel" poll say they believe that the country is too Islamicized. Those are figures that should cause
you worry.
DE MAIZIERE: Yes. I'm worried about this tendency. And it's -- but the Islam is more a codeword against globalization and modernization, although
Germany released the winner of this -- these development. It's new, it's concerning, but it's -- we should not be dominated by PEGIDA when we ask
and discuss our political agenda.
AMANPOUR: I want to play a little bit of your chancellor, Chancellor Merkel's New Year message, where she tried to appeal to Germans not to join
these demonstrations.
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ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): So I say to everyone who goes to such demonstrations, do not follow those who are
appealing to you because too often there is prejudice, coldness, even hatred in their hearts.
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DE MAIZIERE: First of all, I totally agree to this statement. There is a red line in Germany.
On the other hand, a lot of those who are there on the street, they have critical questions. They ask, is there an end of asylum seekers? How
dangerous is the Islam for our society? What about the fight against I.S.? Is this -- can this be successful?
And these critical questions has to be asked, has to be answered, but not as an answer on PEGIDA, but because we, on our own, we want to answer these
questions.
AMANPOUR: And we read that the head of PEGIDA is somebody who has his own criminal record; he's been known to the authorities. He's been apparently
arrested and convicted.
Why is he able to even be head of a party in your country? Or a movement?
DE MAIZIERE: It's not a party; it's not a movement, less than a movement. It's a good question. I don't know. His deputy is running a security
company. So they can organize great events. They are the rightist extreme people among these organizations.
So they're very well organized. But this guy you talked about, he is not the intellectual head of this movement. There must be someone else.
AMANPOUR: You're interior minister, presumably responsible in large part for law and order, again, why is this guy with a criminal record allowed to
destabilize your country to the point that the chancellor has to get on national television and practically beg people not to follow him?
DE MAIZIERE: Yes. Anybody who is free can organize a demonstration. This is part of our free society. But the question is why do so many follow
him? This is the more interesting questions.
He is very clever in not crossing a red line, criminal sort of speeches. So this is the reason why I think he's not the only one.
AMANPOUR: A worrying number of Germans tell various pollsters that they don't believe you and your fellow government officials when you say that
our country is not actually under foreign cultural domination. They don't believe the figures that you put out.
You have a messaging and a political problem, don't you?
DE MAIZIERE: Yes and, by the way, you as well. The German press is very much criticized as well by the demonstrations. They talk about Lugan
median (ph). So the media who lies to the people, not only the government. So it's a mixture between government and press who lies to the people.
This is rubbish, nonsense, of course. But you're right. We and others and the media, we have problems to reach some parts of our society. And I
think this is the case in other democracies as well.
AMANPOUR: Do you fear a rise of ugly nationalism in your country again?
DE MAIZIERE: No. I'm confident we are strong. We are what we call an everhaf de democratie (ph). We learned our lessons from the Nazi years and
you can see very interesting that the organizations of PEGIDA, they know exactly where is the red line, which a shift should not cross this makes me
more skeptical. But they know where the taboos are in Germany. So I don't see a renewal of the MPD or the parties. It's less than in other European
countries.
AMANPOUR: So what.
(CROSSTALK)
DE MAIZIERE: And we are very well aware of it and we will fight against every tendency.
AMANPOUR: Well, I was going to ask you, what do you plan to do about this?
You know, one of your chancellor's coalition partners warned her after her speech, don't demonize these protesters. Don't call them racist and, by
the way, let's change the asylum laws.
Is that what's going to happen?
DE MAIZIERE: No. We are just in the process to changing them. We say yes to immigration in our interest. We say yes to our humanitarian
responsibility towards asylum seekers. And we saw no to those who only come because of economic reasons. This is quite clear. This has to be
better explained and has to be better implemented.
AMANPOUR: Minister, many of these refugees are motivated by economic woes, by the crisis in Southern Europe, but also I want to know how much of a
problem for Germany does this war in Syria pose in terms of humanitarian refugees?
DE MAIZIERE: Well, it's a great challenge for all of us. We pay around about 800 million euros in the region and the things that work in the
region is very, very important politically, economically, militarily.
But on the other hand, we have to work with the transit countries. We have to fight against these criminals. You have seen these ghost ships entered
by criminal organizations and they put refugees on these ships, 700, something like that. They earn perhaps $5 million per ship.
We've heard about $5-6 billion in the last year benefits for these criminal organizations. We have to fight against them. Otherwise, we will not --
we will not win this situation.
We have to get the people ready to welcome real refugees and we have to fight against these criminal organizations.
AMANPOUR: And we will be delving more into that in a moment.
For now, Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere, thank you so much for joining me.
DE MAIZIERE: Thank you as well and Happy New Year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And how to crack down on immigration traffickers coming up as I talk live next to the head of the International Organization for Migration,
standing by in New York.
But first, a tragic example of this populist hysteria in France, where the far right National Front is a party to be reckoned with. When a Roma baby
girl died near Paris on Christmas Day, city hall refused to allow her to be buried in the local cemetery, saying that priority should be given to those
who pay their taxes.
Now after an uproar, the baby was finally laid to rest in a nearby cemetery today.
Fighting hostility -- next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Now imagine being so desperate to escape war that you put your life in the hands of the most cynical and
criminal people, the traffickers. In the last few days, we've witnessed what looks like a chilling new tactic on the high seas.
Two large ships full of immigrants were abandoned in the Mediterranean. These so-called ghost ships set on autopilot and just pointed towards a
dangerous coastline, only the intervention of the Italian Coast Guard prevented disaster. The passengers were mostly from Syria. Some had paid
up to $9,000 per person for the crossing. And more than 200,000 migrants have crossed the Med in the past year. Thousands have died trying. Even
the pope has taken up this issue. But how will it stop?
Ambassador William Swing, the director general of the International Organization for Migration, joins me now from New York.
Ambassador Swing, welcome to the program.
WILLIAM SWING, DIRECTOR GENERAL, IOM: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: Tell me first, put this in perspective, how chilling, how difficult a new tactic, if you like, is this notion of these ghost ships?
Describe what's happening.
SWING: In some ways, it's a continuation of what we've seen for many years. We have been tracking the deaths at sea and in the desert for a
number of times. And we discovered that about 40,000 people have lost their lives since the year 2000, 22,000 in the Mediterranean and 5,000
worldwide this year, this past year and 3,200 of these in the Mediterranean again.
So this latest effort is caused, I think, by the departure of Mare Nostrum, the Italian naval operation that saved 160,000 lives last year since
October of 2013, and has now been replaced by Operation Triton, which is a Frontex European Union sponsored effort that is not adequate for the task.
AMANPOUR: Right. And in fact, in fact some of the leaders of the European Union, various governments have said, look, we're not actually going to do
a lot of investment in trying to save these migrants coming across.
But what is the point of these traffickers abandoning these ships in the mid-ocean and just pointing them towards disaster?
SWING: Well, it shows several things. It shows the cynical approach of these people. They're part of the international criminal gangs around the
world that are running drugs and guns, that are laundering money, total disregard for human life. And it is very, very profitable. They make
about $30-$35 billion a year, forced labor makes another $150 billion a year.
And the interesting thing is that we've never been able to organize ourselves within the international community to make this a top priority.
So we want to be working this year with the European Union and others who have this problem to try to get an organized effort to stop smuggling.
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AMANPOUR: Do you think you can?
SWING: And to do this, priority number one has to be to save life.
AMANPOUR: Do you think you can stop it? How can you stop this?
SWING: Well, first of all, let's take the example of the piracy off the coast of Somalia. This was a disruption of international trade and they've
put together an international task force and there is no longer any piracy on the Somali coast. Now surely if you can do that there, you can put
together a task force that could go after these smuggling gangs and do something to put them into jail and make them pay a price.
AMANPOUR: All right. So why do you think.
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SWING: -- this is the most important thing.
AMANPOUR: Why do you think that hasn't happened? The cynics will say, well, yes, there's a huge amount of trade that is being compromised. In
other words, it's dollars and cents regarding the Somali pirates and the goods and services that they hijacked and the very lucrative trade routes
that they terrorized.
Do you think there's that same impetus for these poor migrants who are trying to come over?
SWING: Well, there clearly is not at present, but it can, I believe, be put together and organized. Let me give you the larger perspective. We're
living in an unusual period now of unprecedented human mobility, unprecedented disasters. I don't remember a time in my long career in
which we've had so many simultaneous humanitarian emergencies, Syria, Iraq, South Sudan, Central African Republic, Libya, Yemen and the Ebola in West
Africa, and more importantly there are no viable political processes or active negotiations that give us any hope for a solution in the short to
medium term.
So we've got the also then unprecedented anti-migrant sentiment from the minister of the interior, just addressed it from Germany, and we have some
of there -- to do two things. One is we -- and here we need your help. We need to change the migration narrative so that people understand that
migration is inevitable; it is necessary if economies are to flourish and it is desirable if we have the right policies. But our policies are out of
date.
AMANPOUR: What you've just said about necessary and desirable, if you want to have strong economies, clearly that message has really a long way to go
before it penetrates. I mean, I guess the question also is what about these people who are coming over?
Is the face of these migrants changing?
For instance, I just said, some of these Syrians are paying $9,000 per piece. These are not poor people, therefore. These are middle class
people who are trying to escape the war there.
SWING: Yes. On the Ezzadin, that's absolutely right. That's another category there. But for example, most of these are mixed flows. When I
was in -- in fact, if you had been in Lampedusa at the time of the tragedy of October 2013, and looked out on the sandy beach, and seen 368 coffins
draped in white, that would focus one's mind that we have to do more.
And clearly, it was a mixed group. Some were refugees under the 1951 convention; some were economic migrants. Some were heading into
prostitution rings and should have been sent home. Others were, frankly, running, fleeing from political persecution.
So we need to give these people a chance at least to be heard and to be processed, either to get asylum or to be returned or perhaps to join a
family in the northern part of Europe.
But we need to do more. And I'm looking forward to working with the European Union and its member states with our partners, traditionally
UNHCR, the senior representative, the special representative, Secretary- General Ban Ki-moon, to try to put together some kind of perhaps a global conference to address smuggling and trafficking as major issues.
AMANPOUR: Now one official, in fact, from your own organization, your spokesman, said never before have we seen 1,000 of these people in just two
days. And the majority from Syria right now.
You know, you have been ambassador all over the world. How do you see this war in Syria not just resulting in these tragedies and this incredible
migration, but affecting politics in Europe?
You just heard our interview with the German interior minister. It's happening all over the place.
Do you believe that that situation is actually affecting politics in the West?
SWING: Well, I think -- and you know this probably better than anyone else -- that every conflict immediately becomes a regional conflict. And the
pressure that's being put on countries like Lebanon and Jordan is enormous. And somehow or other we've got to put together some kind of a program that
will make people a little more sympathetic to the problems of these people. There are so many things that can be done. There's temporary protective
status. There is the large -- and I want to compliment Germany, the large number they've taken, 20,000 compared to some of the other countries that
have taken very few.
But we need more countries that are prepared to accept refugees for resettlement and we need larger quotas. We now have 16.7 million refugees
and 33.3 million internally displaced persons, which makes 50 million forced migrants, the greatest number since the Second World War.
And clearly we have to come together as an international community and say these people need help.
AMANPOUR: And I guess my question again is, given the fact that this war has been left to rage, unintervened (sic) and uncontrolled, do you see the
fact that it's coming home to roost here in the West? It's -- yes, the immediate neighbors are being mostly affected. But it's also creating this
wave of immigration phobia, populist parties.
SWING: Right. What we need now is more leadership and more political courage to look at the facts very clearly. Let's put it in perspective.
And I don't make light of the pressures that the refugees and IDPs are causing for Europe and others.
But if you look, say, last year, roughly 160,000 irregular migrants went to Europe. Lebanon, with a population of 4.5 million, is now hosting 1.5
million Syrian refugees. So we need to look at the comparative figures and, of course, they're going -- the ones in Europe are going into a
population area of 500 million people.
But if the information and the education is not out there to keep it in perspective, one will think that the numbers are greater than they are. We
did a study last year and it shows that every country in the world overestimates how many foreigners and migrants are in their country.
So it's a question of getting the word out there and explaining.
AMANPOUR: That is actually a fascinating insight. Ambassador Swing, thank you so much for joining me tonight.
And the ambassador mentioned Lebanon. Well, Lebanon has put in new strictures regarding and restricting the entry of Syrian refugees to their
country.
And while rabble rousers try to make political hay out of immigration fears, after a break, we'll have an opportunity to remember the positive
contribution of immigrants in the political sphere. New York, the United States and much of the world today remembers Mario Cuomo, who dies on New
Year's Day. He was one of the last great full-throated defenders of liberalism in the U.S. More of the late governor of New York, Democratic
Party grandee and son of immigrants from Southern Italy -- when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, tensions over immigration are often fueled by, as we just heard, misinformation but also by disparity between the
haves and the have-nots. Imagine a world where an immigrant's son and former three-term governor of New York brought that message home.
Today, New Yorkers said goodbye to Mario Cuomo at his wake in Manhattan after he died on Thursday, New Year's Day. Hours after his son, Governor
Andrew Cuomo, was inaugurated for a second term.
Mario was a spellbinding visionary and an orator. Indeed, his 1984 speech, "A Tale of Two Cities," challenged President Ronald Reagan's description of
America as a shining city on a hill.
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MARIO CUOMO, FORMER GOVERNOR OF N.Y.: A shining city is perhaps all the president sees from the portico of the White House and the veranda of his
ranch, where everyone seems to be doing well. But there's another city. There's another part to the shining city, the part where some people can't
pay their mortgages and most young people can't afford one, where students can't afford the education they need and middle class parents watch the
dreams they hold for their children evaporate.
In this part of the city, there are more poor than ever, more families in trouble, more and more people who need help but can't find it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A sobering reminder, even 30 years ago, the yawning equality gap was getting dangerously wider.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank
you for watching and goodbye from London.
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