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Amanpour
Boko Haram's Most Dangerous and Destructive Attack; Challenging Putin's Power; Imagine a World
Aired January 15, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): New satellite images of Boko Haram's horrific rampage in Nigeria. Tonight the country's military
spokesman has his say.
And the former head of U.S. Africa force responds.
And we're standing by for an update on the Belgian anti-terror raid. Two people are dead after a police operation there.
And also freedom of expression under attack, this time in Russia. Former political prisoner Mikhail Khodorkovsky on challenging Putin's
power.
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MIKHAIL KHODORKOVSKY, RUSSIAN POLITICAL PRISONER (through translator): Without a doubt, I do want the regime change in Russia. I think that my
country doesn't deserve any new era of authoritarianism. But at the same time, I don't want a revolution.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Funerals continue in France after the 17 brutal deaths that have shocked the world while in Nigeria 2,000 people are thought to have been
killed by Islamist militants, Boko Haram in the remote northeastern town of Baga, so remote, in fact, and so dangerous that as yet no journalist, no
cameras have been able to reach there.
And so the news has been slow to trickle out. The massacre happened nearly two weeks ago. Amnesty International calls it Boko Haram's largest
attack ever.
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AMANPOUR (voice-over): These before-and-after satellite pictures showing torched buildings in Baga, are one of the few ways of seeing the
destruction. President Goodluck Jonathan was quick to condemn the Paris attack, but he's only just arrived in the nearby Nigerian city of
Maiduguri.
A leading Nigerian archbishop told CNN that the nation needs an "I am Charlie" style unity and solidarity moment.
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ARCHBISHOP IGNATIUS KAIGAMA OF NIGERIA: I liked it when I saw the huge numbers gathered in Paris and then the heads of state from different
nations all coming together for a common cause. Why can't we share the same sympathy, solidarity, concern?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Major General Chris Olukolade is spokesman for the Nigerian military and he joins me now on the phone from the capital, Abuja.
General, welcome; thank you for joining me.
Can you clear up for us, please, what you know, how many people have been killed? Because Amnesty International is saying thousands.
MAJOR GENERAL CHRIS OLUKOLADE, NIGERIAN MILITARY SPOKESPERSON: Well, the issue of figure still remains controversial considering the fact that,
yes, we are aware that very terrible atrocities took place in Baga on the 3rd of January when the terrorists and their attack upon the town. Not
only destroyed property, they also attacked innocent civilians and at the end of their activities, a lot of destruction in the town of Assan (ph) was
recorded.
We also know that in the process, a large number of individuals died. But terrorists that were there also died in that attack because in the
process of preparing a number of them were victims.
So a large number of human beings died in that attack. But the figure still remains very controversial considering the fact that no one has
actually come up with anything credible enough for us to endorse.
AMANPOUR: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
OLUKOLADE: (INAUDIBLE) activities preparatory to -- for the operations in that area. We can safely say that we are not in a position
to endorse the (INAUDIBLE).
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you -- General, General, let me ask you, you know, you're saying nobody's been able to get there. But I mean,
Nigeria has an army. Now after several weeks the president has gone to a nearby town.
Why has it taken this long to mobilize?
And what can your forces, what can the president do to try to reclaim this territory?
OLUKOLADE: Well, what I told you earlier is related to the operations that are going on there. As I speak to you, we have (INAUDIBLE) operations
(INAUDIBLE) doing what we require in the form of intelligence to embark on subsequent operations.
But in not just that area, but other areas where the activities of terrorists have become (INAUDIBLE). And you also recall that considering
the need to be (INAUDIBLE) as much as possible, conventional professional and this approach, we need to be very careful (INAUDIBLE) we don't cause
more damage to citizens.
AMANPOUR: Well, you say that. And as you know, many human rights groups have accused the Nigerian military itself of abuses and killings in
its fight back against Boko Haram.
Are you concerned about that?
And are you concerned about alienating the population you're trying to protect?
OLUKOLADE: That's really we are concerned about two things that you mentioned. We are concerned about these allegations considering the fact
that it is not consistent with our pattern of operation. Now I have explained this. If you recall, there was a time that this same Boko Haram
attacked (INAUDIBLE) you are referring to.
And they embarked on this type of (INAUDIBLE). And at that time, it was easy for some interest group to attribute it to the military.
(INAUDIBLE) incident is the proof that as we explained at that time, that this is not our pattern of operation. This pattern of operation is not
(INAUDIBLE). (INAUDIBLE) only confirm that.
In other words, we still stand by the fact that our training, our preparation for this mission does not give allowance for the abuse of human
rights in the scale it has been propagated.
We are concerned also to assure that for whatever reason (INAUDIBLE). they don't go against their training to the extent of embarking on human
rights abuse. That is still (INAUDIBLE) mission (INAUDIBLE) to the moment. If we have any proof, any proof that we are looking for (INAUDIBLE) against
any personnel involved in human rights abuse, sure, that the authorities have been (INAUDIBLE).
AMANPOUR: Major General, just very briefly now and finally, you know, you've been facing this major assault by Boko Haram for years. Just
recently obviously we've seen all these girls, hundreds of them being captured and now this horrible massive attack.
Do you hold out really any hope of being able to regain that part of the country and stabilizing it?
OLUKOLADE: Well, we have insisted we stand by the fact that, yes, the activities of terrorism is prevalent (INAUDIBLE) communities here and
there. It is part of the reality of the moment. We recognize such (INAUDIBLE) but we have never considered that any portion of Nigeria is
under their control.
Indeed, their activities may be prevalent (INAUDIBLE) we have been planning the appropriate measures to reverse any of their activities now
and ensure that minimum effect on property and civilians and ensure that in the process of flushing them out of the areas where they operate now we
don't cause collateral damage to our individuals.
AMANPOUR: OK.
OLUKOLADE: (INAUDIBLE).
AMANPOUR: All right. Major General Olukolade, thank you so much for joining me from Nigeria.
And now we're going to turn to Washington, and I'm joined by General Carter Ham, who's the former chief of the United States Africa Command.
General Ham, I mean, this is just going on apace, this Boko Haram rampage.
Do you see the Nigerian military making inroads, being able to reclaim and try to address that situation?
GENERAL CARTER HAM, FORMER CHIEF, AFRICOM: Christiane, I listened intently to the general's comment. And I understand his commitment and the
message that he's conveying.
But I think it's clear that certainly over the past year or two that as Boko Haram has gained momentum and extended its reach across Northern
Nigeria, the Nigerian army by itself has not been able to effectively counter Boko Haram to date.
If we've learned nothing else over the past decade, we've learned that no nation by itself can deal with this threat of terrorism. And so I think
a much broader regional approach is required in the case of Boko Haram.
AMANPOUR: So describe what you think is required and why is that not happening then?
HAM: Well, I don't know that I can explain why it is not happening and there have been some efforts. It's been encouraging to see Niger and
Chad and Cameroon have a conversation and commit forces to try to contain the expansion of Boko Haram.
But I think, again, I think it's -- Boko Haram's capabilities surpass that of the nation's commitments so far. And I think perhaps, again, a
more cohesive and energized international commitment perhaps under the auspices of the African Union, such as the African Union has organized in
Somalia might be the kind of approach that is necessary to help Nigeria through this particularly difficult period.
AMANPOUR: Do you think they get enough help from , for instance, United States? There's been a message put out by one of the Nigerian
ambassadors today, basically they say they want more military cooperation, more military equipment to be able to face them down.
Is that the answer?
HAM: I don't think it's the only answer. There's -- the United States and many others provide a lot of assistance. Nigeria is, after all,
the most populous country in Africa. It has its largest economy. It is in all of our best interests that Nigeria be safe, stable and secure.
I was disappointed that Nigeria curtailed the U.S.-Nigerian military training recently and I'm hopeful that that will be able to be restarted I
think because of the United States' interests and it's also in the interest of Nigeria for there to be a strong U.S.-Nigerian military relationship.
AMANPOUR: And why was that curtailed?
And what exactly has the U.S.-Africa force done in order to try to help these countries and try to push back this militant extremist terrorism
there?
HAM: There's been a longstanding series of training exercises and training endeavors between the Nigerian army and the U.S. military,
particularly our special operating forces in the immediate aftermath of the capture of the Chibok (ph) girls. There was a concerted effort to assist
the Nigerians with intelligence.
I think there is more that can be done. But it begins with Nigeria willingly accepting the offers of assistance, not only from the United
States, but from other nations as well.
AMANPOUR: Well, a lot to pursue and to keep looking into, General Ham, thank you very much indeed for joining me from Washington tonight.
Thank you.
And when we come back, we are still standing by for an update from the Belgian federal prosecutor's office on this antiterror operation. We'll
bring you that when it happens.
Plus regime change in Russia? Yes, if one of its most famous political prisoners has his way. Why Putin might live to regret releasing
Mikhail Khodorkovsky last year. That's after this.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. In the wake of the coldblooded murder of journalists in France, we note that journalists and
political dissent is quashed in many parts of the world.
Take Russia, where opposition activist and blogger Alexei Navalny has again been detained by authorities. One year after being released from
prison the former oil tycoon, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, joined me here in the studio to talk about how democrats in Russia could join forces to defeat
President Putin at the next elections.
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AMANPOUR: Mikhail Khodorkovsky, welcome back to this program.
MIKHAIL KHODORKOVSKY, PARDONED RUSSIAN POLITICAL PRISONER (through translator): Pleasure to see you again.
AMANPOUR: So last year, when you'd just come out of prison, one of the conditions you told me about having been released by President Putin
was that you would not enter politics. You told him that.
And now you're changing your mind.
KHODORKOVSKY (through translator): That's not exactly so. I didn't obligate myself not to participate in politics. I wrote Putin -- this is
true -- that until August, I need to deal with family affairs. And to my great regret, in August, my mother died.
And now I'm building my life along.
AMANPOUR: But you want to cause him problems, don't you?
You want almost another revolution in Russia.
You want regime change, don't you?
KHODORKOVSKY (through translator): Without a doubt, I do want a regime change in Russia. I think that my country doesn't deserve a new era
of authoritarianism. But at the same time, I don't want a revolution.
AMANPOUR: How do you plan to get through to these people?
You've been away from Russia for so long.
What is your relevance to them right now?
KHODORKOVSKY (through translator): Today's means of communication allow me to take part quite actively in the public and social life of my
country. There isn't a single day when I don't meet with people from Russia, when I don't interact with them either face-to-face or through
video conferencing.
There have been millions of people who have taken part in those events that we have been conducting.
AMANPOUR: Do you have any interaction with Alexei Navalny, who is, right now, even despite your wishes to be a prominent counter to President
Putin, Alexei Navalny is pretty much that person right now.
KHODORKOVSKY (through translator): Of course. We do work with Alexei's team. We interact with him -- indirectly with him as well. And I
consider it very important to support him right now. I think that to support the Navalny brothers right now is extremely, extremely important,
including in Russia, but in the West as well.
AMANPOUR: Today Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, plummeting oil prices, the ruble in danger, the economy bad, what is Putin doing?
KHODORKOVSKY (through translator): It's impossible to understand. And we entered some kind of completely different era of Russia's
development. It's impossible to understand if we don't take into account one problem, Putin's rating had begun to fall.
Fifteen years is a typical political cycle in Russia. And Putin is starting to drop in the ratings in the main because his cronies are robbing
just completely without limits. It's precisely because of this. I'm absolutely convinced that in the end, the decision was made to annex Crimea
in order to distract people's attention. We need to admit that he succeeded at this.
AMANPOUR: What hope does anybody such as yourself or anyone in the opposition have?
He's shown how he's been able to crush the opposition, crush the media, crush any kind of dissent over the last several years.
KHODORKOVSKY (through translator): He does indeed right now feel that he doesn't have any problems inside the country. However, we don't want to
live in isolation. Russian citizens absolutely do not want to fence themselves off, wall themselves off from the rest of the world.
And yet this is exactly the direction that President Putin is taking us in. Russian citizens, the active part of Russian citizens, absolutely
do not want to live on oil. They want to develop technology; they want to take part in scientific breakthroughs that require interaction with the
rest of the world.
And it's clear that Putin's policy is putting a huge big X on all of that. Russian citizens want to be friendly with their neighbor countries.
And of course, at some moment this wound is going to burst. And what form it'll burst, well, one would hope that Putin and his cronies would
make a balanced decision, that it's time to go, but without shots fired. I very much hope that they will make such a decision at some point.
AMANPOUR: You sound like you're offering Putin safe passage out of the country.
KHODORKOVSKY (through translator): Well, if I had such an opportunity, I would of course do everything to ensure that the regime
change take place as softly as possible, because I consider that it's not worth wasting human lives on what should in fact be a normal procedure of
replacing one regime with another in the country.
Of course we do understand perfectly well that at some point the situation may explode and then, of course, nobody physically would be able
to give anybody any kind of guarantees.
AMANPOUR: You are a business man. You were the biggest oil magnate in post-Soviet Russia.
What is the effect on the price of oil now and the ruble's disruption on Russia?
And do you believe that President Putin actually miscalculated, that he didn't realize that his adventurism in Crimea and Ukraine would lead to
this point?
KHODORKOVSKY (through translator): In my opinion, anyway, Putin was convinced that he would be able to break the West.
And the fact that, despite all the tensions that we do see taking place between the coalition, has nevertheless been acting jointly, I think,
was --
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AMANPOUR: We're going to break away for a moment. You can watch the full interview when we replay at 10 o'clock in London, 11 in Berlin.
But the federal prosecutor in Brussels is talking right now after a counter terror raid that apparently claimed two of the terrorists' lives.
Let's listen in.
Well, we apologize. We are obviously waiting for that live press conference on an ongoing anti-terror operation in Brussels. But we still
have technical difficulties and we'll be sure to bring you it when those are all resolved.
Now from the intrigue at the top of Russia' political hierarchy to the heady heights of Yosemite, climbing into the history books, the pinnacle of
human endeavor -- after this.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back. We appear to have the technical difficulties resolved. We're going back to Brussels for the press conference with the
federal prosecutors and officials about a counterterror operation there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The official judge specializing in terrorism has had 10 searches carried out in (INAUDIBLE)
districts. This was within the framework of an investigation looking into an operational cell made up of people, some of whom were coming back from
Syria.
The investigation made it possible to determine that the group was about to carry out major terrorist attacks in Belgium imminently.
At Verviers, the suspects immediately and for long minutes fired, using war weapons and hand weapons before being neutralized. Two of the
suspects died and a third was detained on the site. No witness, no police officer was injured. The investigation is currently continuing.
And as you will understand, it's not possible to give any more information in order not to undermine the investigation. Another press
conference will be given tomorrow morning at 11:00 in the morning.
Given the significance of this, the police means and special operations were brought in to add their weight to the work of the municipal
police of Brussels. We have to say what extraordinary work the federal police has done, the security forces of the state and also the special
forces, the federal police.
Given the situation, the body coordinating an analysis of the threat decided to raise the alert threshold in Belgium to three out of four levels
with respect to police forces throughout Belgium and it will remain at the level two with particular vigilance in certain places.
AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, after a week in which we've witnessed the depths of human depravity, we can focus on the very summit of human
endeavor. Imagine a world with a rock face so high and so steep that climbing it defies the laws of gravity.
El Capitan, a cliff face half a mile high in Yosemite National Park in California, was thought to be an almost insurmountable challenge.
But today, two climbers, Kevin Jorgesen and Tommy Caldwell, reached the top using only their hands and feet to scale the cliff face. The ropes
you're seeing were only used for safety.
The herculean climb took 18 days to complete with the two enduring ice storms and boiling surfaces while clinging onto tiny ledges and sleeping
thousands of feet above the ground. Cuts to their hands and fingertips from grabbing the sharp edges could slow the journey for days at a time.
But success came today after more than six years of planning. And from their lofty position, it was only fitting that they receive
congratulations from the highest office in the land, as tweets of admiration came from the White House, a beacon of commitment and courage,
lighting up the often dark times that we live in.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always watch the show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
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