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Amanpour
Cartoonist Survived Terror Attack; Europe Faces Many Challenges; Imagine a World
Aired January 21, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: surviving the "Charlie Hebdo" attack exactly two weeks later, the magazine's new head
tells me of his terrifying ordeal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURENT SOURISSEAU, "CHARLIE HEBDO" EDITOR (through translator): I was in the room where the killers burst into the room, opened the door. They
appeared with submachine guns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Plus as Ukraine warns of more Russian troops crossing the border, the E.U. foreign policy chief tells me unity is the
best weapon against Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEDERICA MOGHERINI, EU FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF: The main point that is surprising and probably also affecting the Russian leadership is our unity,
the impossibility to divide us, and I count on us to stay united.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
It is exactly two weeks since the devastating terror attacks in France against the press, the police and the Jewish community. And with the
country still reeling, the prime minister, Manuel Valls, today announced exceptional new measures to combat terrorism.
The government, he says, will add nearly 3,000 new security jobs, spend nearly half a billion dollars and push for changes in laws that govern its
security agencies.
Seventeen people were killed on January 7th, and each scene of carnage has been transformed into a shrine that dignitaries and the public keep coming
to in grief and disbelief.
Tonight, my guess is Laurent Sourisseau, the "Charlie Hebdo" cartoonist who goes by the name of Riss. He told me about being shot in the shoulder,
about the fear that he would be finished off like his colleagues were and about the courage it takes to continue publishing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Riss, welcome to the program. And we send you really heartfelt condolences for the massive losses of the last two weeks.
SOURISSEAU (through translator): Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: Can you tell me your reaction, how did you feel about the 4 million French people who came out and marched in support of you all and of
course the 5 million "Survivor" issues of "Charlie Hebdo" that sold out a week ago?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): It gave me a sense of comfort because we were extremely violently attacked during those days. And we felt a little
alone at that time. And all those people that went out into the streets comforted us and made us realize that we weren't alone. So it really
comforted us and gave us the wish to continue.
AMANPOUR: Can I take you back two weeks?
And I notice that you have your arm bandaged up. They shot you and they shot your colleagues.
Can you tell me what happened to you and what you saw that terrible day two weeks ago?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): I was in the room where the killers burst into the room, opened the door. They appeared with submachine guns and a
colleague who was in front of me was in front of him. As soon as I saw this scene, they started to shoot. Then I lay down on the floor with my
face on the ground.
And then I just heard the sounds of gunfire. I could just hear the gunfire. I didn't even hear any shouting, any screaming. All I could hear
was the gunfire and I had my face to the ground. At one time I heard -- felt something in my shoulder and that's how it happened.
AMANPOUR: Riss, we have heard that they asked for Charb by name and maybe others as well.
Is that what happened?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): Once the shooting was over they approached my colleague, who's called Charb, who's next to me. He was
lying down on the floor, his face on the ground and they checked that it was him.
They said, "Yes, that's him. That really is him."
That was the only one where they pronounced the name "Charb," the only one.
AMANPOUR: You managed obviously to get out of there. You survived. You went to hospital.
Did you feel safe when you had gotten out?
What was it like, those first few days after this attack?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): Well, in the hours that followed my hospitalization, I was still anxious because they still -- we still hadn't
arrested the killers. So we didn't know where they were.
You know, and then they were carry on killing by taking people in the kosher supermarket. So I wondered if there were killers roaming around and
who were looking for survivors. So I did wonder if people were not looking for me in the hospital to finish me off.
AMANPOUR: Where do you find the strength to come back to work and to take up a position now as head of publication and to continue what is obviously
dangerous work?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): I don't know that it's a dangerous job. But this magazine has given me so much pleasure for so many years that we
can't deprive ourselves of this pleasure because of a gang of killers and because the surviving team wants to carry on. If the team did not want to
carry on, we wouldn't be able to carry on.
So this is something collective, collectively we want to carry on. And so the journal will carry on.
AMANPOUR: Now, Riss, millions of people in France support you; millions of people around the world do as well. And yet many people don't. Many
people thought that what you did was incredibly offensive and provocative. I would like to play something that even Pope Francis said just two days
ago about what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): If Dr. Gaspari (ph), a great friend, says a swear word against my mother, then a punch awaits him. But it's
normal. It's normal. One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith. One cannot make fun of faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now he's -- obviously the pope condemned the killings. Obviously he did. But what is your reaction to people who are now saying
that, well, you can't make fun of people's faith, otherwise who knows what's going to happen?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): First of all, we have to distinguish two things, have to distinguish faith and persons. We have never sought to
make fun of people. We have a right to have a faith, to believe in God.
But you have a right to make fun of what the religions are saying, of dogma. There's a difference between dogma and individuals. That's the
first thing.
The second thing: I have convictions which are as precious and important as those who believe. I'm an atheist. As an atheist, my convictions as an
atheist must be respected just as much as those of believers.
And so I accept to live in a world where people do not have my opinions, to live alongside people who have different opinions and to hear religious
convictions that are not mine, that is to live in an open world, to accept more and more living with people who do not have the same ideas.
And if there are criticisms that are made, that's not serious. You don't have to take the caricatures for more than what they are, should not attach
more importance than when you are a believer.
You may not like these caricatures, but is it so serious? It's not so serious. If you don't like the magazine, you don't read it. You push it
aside.
And "Charlie Hebdo" does not stop people from believing.
AMANPOUR: What do you think of various British and American news organizations who did not show the cover last week?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): That is their choice. But I'm not criticizing their choice. If people make choices then they have
consequences.
The fundamental question that I ask is that democratic, large democratic countries like France and United States and Great Britain, is whether we
are still in a democracy or if we've slowly become a theocracy.
Are we just led by the laws of men, of people for other people?
Are we in a political system where laws are of divine origin?
Are we still in a democracy or have we become, some would say, a theocracy?
That is a fundamental question about what has happened, to me.
AMANPOUR: You said that you wish you weren't on the front lines, that you wish somebody else could take your place on the front lines.
What is your next step? What is the next step for "Charlie Hebdo"?
Do you continue to satirize Islam?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): Our principle is to make satire about all religions, second principle to speak about Islam when there's something in
the news. We're not speaking about Islam all the time because there are many other things going on, which our magazine must speak about.
So Islam is not a priority subject for us. So we will carry on speaking about religions as we've always done, not more and not less.
AMANPOUR: And I guess finally you were outsiders. You took pride in poking the establishment and yet the establishment has embraced you now.
How do you feel about that?
SOURISSEAU (through translator): We are also citizens of the republic. And in certain rather grave moments, we need to go through such moments,
what counts also is a democracy of the republic and if in institutions we see people, as I say, conceptions of democracy the republic is us. We do
not mind meeting them and shaking hands with them. But what counts is the aim of living in a democracy.
AMANPOUR: Riss, thank you very much for joining us and talking to us tonight. And I wish you good luck.
SOURISSEAU (through translator): Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So you heard him say the journal will continue. But it wasn't printed today. It's not out this week. So go to amanpour.com to hear Riss
on how the paper will manage now without some of the most talented cartoonists in the country.
Next, we delve deeper into Europe's few counterterror steps. But first a terror suspect who's been held without charge in Guantanamo Bay prison
since 2002 has just hit the Amazon best seller list.
Mauritanian Mohamedou Ould Slahi wrote a diary of his time there that has taken 10 years to get published. It's described as a one-of-a-kind account
and news of its success comes as President Obama in his State of the Union address said the terrorists are using Guantanamo to recruit more people to
their cause. And that is a problem in European jails as well.
And after a break, we'll discuss that and Russia's latest aggressive moves on Ukraine with Federica Mogherini, the E.U.'s new foreign policy chief --
next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Europe is facing its highest terror threat is more than a decade and it's a problem so serious that it stands alongside Russia and China at front and
center of Europe's agenda.
One of the most senior European figures tasked with handling these crises is Federica Mogherini, the new E.U. foreign policy chief.
Mogherini, who was a controversial choice for the role, caused a storm this week when she suggested that sanctions on Russia could be eased despite
Moscow's continued interference in Ukraine.
I reached her in Washington, where she wanted to set me straight, that the West stands united in keeping up its pressure on Moscow until Moscow
changes its ways.
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AMANPOUR: Federica Mogherini, welcome to the program.
MOGHERINI: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So you seem to have stirred up a real hornet's nest in Europe amongst your fellow foreign ministers. They're calling your discussion
paper on perhaps easing sanctions on Russia a strategic blunder, sending all the wrong signals.
Why did you do it? What were you trying to send?
MOGHERINI: There's a lot of misleading interpretations about that paper. That paper that was leaked, unfortunately, was intended and still intended
to be a paper for having discussions with questions.
That was asked by ministers, that was agreed with President Tusk, with President Juncker, to look not at revising our sanctions policy but mainly
at viewing at what else we can put on the table of the diplomatic efforts of the international community to bring the Ukrainian crisis to an end.
AMANPOUR: As you know, the sanctions are coming up for review in March and there are many European leaders who say that they should be continued
unless Russia meets its obligations. And the Europeans are saying it has not yet.
MOGHERINI: This is not only on some ministers or some leaders saying that. Actually, this is our unanimous position and that was very clear when we
had the meeting with the ministers on Monday.
So not only the situation on the east of Ukraine is going to be important to monitor what we do with our sanctions policy, but also the annexation of
Crimea is going to stay as the basic, the non-recognition of the annexation of Crimea is going to stay as the basic principle for us to keep our
sanctions on Russia.
AMANPOUR: Ms. Mogherini, what is failing then? Because the sanctions are hurting; the ruble, as we've seen, has had a very severe dent; the price of
oil is falling. And yet the president of Ukraine says that Russia is sending in more troops right now. The battle over Donetsk airport is very,
very heavy.
What is it that's going to stop Russia?
MOGHERINI: That's exactly the meaning of the paper we have discussed. Economic sanctions are working on an economic plan. Russian economy is
suffering and Russian people are suffering out of this changes in Russian economy.
What does not change is Russian behavior on the ground. And we have contradictive signs. The public declarations from the Russian leadership,
one day, say that the Minsk agreement is still the point of reference and they are committed to implement it.
And then the following day the implementation on the ground doesn't happen; on the contrary, we have negative signs.
I would say that what we have to increase is the political and diplomatic pressure on Russia. And here comes the role of the European Union, of many
European Union countries, of the international community, our unity in giving the signs is essential and the diplomatic efforts to support the
talks also President Poroshenko is holding with Putin are crucial.
AMANPOUR: I want to play you this part of an interview I did with the Putin and Kremlin critic and former Yukos tycoon, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. He
said Putin, in fact, was surprised by the unity of the West. Listen to what he told me.
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MIKHAIL KHODORKOVSKY, PARDONED RUSSIAN POLITICAL PRISONER (through translator): In my opinion, anyway, Putin was convinced that he would be
able to break the West. And the fact that despite all the tensions that we do see taking place between the coalition has nevertheless been acting
jointly, I think, was a very big unexpected surprise for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So he takes that view and despite the fact that obviously these sanctions do cause some pain to some European countries, can you be assured
that European unity, Western unity will remain united and will not fray?
MOGHERINI: Yes. You know, it would be naive and probably stupid to say that there are no differences among Europeans. But nonetheless, we've
managed, over the last year, to keep united and take all our decisions by unanimity, because we know that our decisions are not linked to single
member states' interests, but they are linked to a principle that we cannot accept the violation of international rules. This is the basic core
principle of the European Union.
And we are going to stay united on that, not only as Europeans, but I believe also with our American friends and with the rest of the large part
of the international community. Building and keeping this unity requires also sometimes asking difficult questions. But our main job is to keep
this unity, because I agree with what was said.
The main point that is surprising and probably also affecting the Russian leadership is our unity, the impossibility to divide us, and I count on us
to stay united.
AMANPOUR: Let's move onto terrorism because obviously Europe is wracked by this phenomenon right now. You had a meeting with fellow foreign ministers
on Monday and you called for an alliance, a counterterror alliance, not just inside Europe but with North Africa, with Yemen.
Look at what's happening with Yemen since you made that declaration, the home of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. What are your fears right now
for any kind of anti-terror coalition, given what happened in Yemen and the government seems to be slipping?
MOGHERINI: Rather than my fears I would share my hopes. Otherwise, I should change jobs probably.
What we need is not only a security but also political and cultural efforts in the region, which is also European region, because part of Europe is
projected towards the Mediterranean and Middle East.
What we need is an alliance with all those that in the Muslim world, in the Arab world, but also in Africa and in Asia, understand that the fight
against terror and terrorist acts concerns not just Europe or the West, but concerns Arab societies and Islamic communities, first of all.
AMANPOUR: What about inside Europe?
I was speaking to the E.U. anti-terror chief, Gilles de Kerchove, a few days ago, who said that they really need an American style PNR, passenger
name record.
Listen to what he told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GILLES DE KERCHOVE, E.U. COUNTERTERROR COORDINATOR: European parliament, for the time being, is a bit reluctant. So part of the work now is try to
convince the European parliament that it's very much needed and that we can strike a fair balance between security and privacy in respect to the PNR.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Do you think the European parliament will be persuaded and do you think that is going to come?
MOGHERINI: I hope so. I've been in the European parliament last week as it has been President Tusk and President Juncker passing a message that we
really need these measures to become European measures as well.
The sharing of information obviously respecting privacy, finding the right ways doing that, but it's crucial because we are on the same problematic
line which is that of either we trust each other and share information or we will always face a lack in our response to the security threat we have
internally.
This is something that I think is changing in the awareness of the European people and I hope that European parliament will take the right decisions on
that.
AMANPOUR: On that note, Federica Mogherini, thank you so much for joining me from Washington today.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And after a break, we have seen the full scale assault on free speech in France. Well, imagine a world where kudos from abroad trigger a
cultural crisis at home. Russia hunts its own leviathan -- after this.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, "Charlie Hebdo's" staff was slaughtered for daring to speak freely and, yes, daring to offend. Now imagine a world
where a film praised around the world can't even be seen at home.
Russia's cultural legacy is legendary, of course, for centuries contributing some of the greatest art, literature and music to the world.
Its epic cinematography goes all the way back to "Battleship Potemkin" in 1925. But in the West, Russian film was left out in the cold during the
Cold War. Its only Golden Globe for "War and Peace" came in 1968.
At last this year the Russian film, "Leviathan," won a Golden Globe this month and it's been nominated for an Oscar. The critical darling depicts a
bleak, hard-drinking, hard-cussing Russian town that's mired in corruption while portraits of President Putin ominously loom above the action.
And perhaps no surprise, the vodka-drenched movie has left a bitter aftertaste in Putin's Russia. The film hasn't even been released there
yet. Its premiere's been pushed back as government censors chop away at profanities in accordance with a new law. And now even more new rules and
laws are kicking in that ban film that's deemed guilty of, quote, "defiling the national culture, posing a threat to national unity."
The filmmakers say the story is universal. It just happens to be released in today's highly polarized political Russian climate. With ministers and
church leaders coming down hard on the film, perhaps some validation from a lowly orthodox deacon who has said that its director should be flattered by
claims that he is anti-Russian. After all, says the deacon to the "Financial Times," "they said that about Pushkin, Tolstoy and Dostoevsky,
too."
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
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