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Amanpour
Interview with Indonesian President Joko Widodo; Imagine a World
Aired January 26, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Good evening, everyone, from the presidential palace in Jakarta. I'm Christiane Amanpour. And tonight,
my exclusive interview with the president of Indonesia, Joko Widodo. On his first 100 days in office as leader of the world's biggest Muslim
majority country of 215 million people.
And this nation has never seen anything like him before, neither from the military nor any part of the elite, a man with a decidedly common touch, an
outsider who likes to go by his nickname, Jokowi, and who touts himself as a man of the people and for the people.
He is Indonesia's rock star politician. And since October its president. Indeed, when he sought the presidency last year, his campaign drew pop
stars, bands and thousands of adoring supporters. He was raised in a down- and-out part of Surakarta, on the central island of Java. His father was a carpenter and he would follow in his footsteps, eventually exporting
furniture, until he became the extremely popular mayor of his hometown and then the governor of Jakarta, the capital.
To win the presidency, he went up against a former army general, Prabowo Subianto, a member of the old guard that has long ruled this enormous
Pacific archipelago. Almost a continent unto itself, Indonesia is the land of 17,000 islands, stretching more than 3,000 miles from Aceh near Thailand
to Papua, just a stone's throw away from Australia.
But hampered by crumbling infrastructure and endemic corruption, Indonesia is still struggling to bring into the global marketplace that's utterly
transformed countries like China and Vietnam. President Widodo now believes that he's the man to change that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, welcome to the program.
JOKO WIDODO, PRESIDENT OF INDONESIA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: You have a lot of challenges in this huge country that you're trying to develop further. But you have started with a lot of success by
reducing the fuel subsidy. Many of your predecessors could not do this.
Were you surprised? Because that's a 30 percent price hike, essentially, in the cost of fuel.
WIDODO (through translator): The experience that I had, if we could explain about the increase of the price, the people can accept that. I'm
not surprised because the people after they get the explanation, they can accept that.
AMANPOUR: And of course you're helped by the plummeting prices of oil right now.
How much does that put into your treasury, a lot?
WIDODO (through translator): More or less around 230 trillion and --
AMANPOUR: Rupiah?
WIDODO (through translator): Rupiah, yes. And those are mainly given for infrastructure (ph). As I said before, I forgot, we also divert for
education and health.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, when it comes to the economy, we were out in the streets with you today. We just want to show a little bit of what we found
together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Tell me about blusukan.
Am I saying it right?
WIDODO: Yes, yes. Blusukan is good to the people, good to the plan (ph) and we check our program. We control our program and we must know the real
situation in the ground.
AMANPOUR: Did you start this in solo when you were -- ?
(CROSSTALK)
WIDODO: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, when I was mayor, I started it with blusukan.
AMANPOUR: Which basically means impromptu visits, right?
WIDODO: Yes, yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: Unannounced, there you are.
WIDODO: Yes, that's right.
AMANPOUR: You have been very successful. You have trillions of new rupiah in your treasury by reducing and removing the fuel subsidy. This looks
like some of your infrastructure. Yes? Is that -- what is it do you want to do with this money?
WIDODO: We want to channel our fuel subsidy to the programs (INAUDIBLE) activity, to build our infrastructure, to improve the irrigation for the
farmer, seed and fertilizers to the farmer and then we give the bus engine (ph) to the freezer men (ph). We give the freezer to the freezer man (ph)
and we get working with -- to the small and microenterprise in the villages.
So from the -- from the consumption to the production, from the consumptive, I take it to the productive activity.
So --
AMANPOUR: So that's a change?
WIDODO: Yes. So we change totally.
This is our subway. The planning already 26 years ago but because there is decision, not moving. But now already in process and we hope in 2019 will
be finished.
(CROSSTALK)
WIDODO: (Speaking foreign language).
She asked my number, telephone number.
(LAUGHTER)
AMANPOUR: She wants your number? Things are getting a little too friendly.
WIDODO: She is from area.
AMANPOUR: So this land you've cleared.
WIDODO: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And what do you do with everybody?
WIDODO: Yes, the move to the flat here, that flat. We have one, two, three, four, five -- seven and this year we build eight flat, new.
AMANPOUR: So tell me what it means to you because, Mr. President, you grew up by the riverbank in Solo. You grew up in a slum as well.
WIDODO: Yes. So I know.
(LAUGHTER)
WIDODO: I know the condition. I know the situation because when I was little, when I was a boy, I stay in the riverbank, in the slum area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: One of your big campaign promises and one of the things that the people here want is for the government to root out corruption. It's
endemic. It has plagued this country for decades.
We happen to be here right in the middle of a big political row over corruption. The police chief is accused of being corrupt. In turn, the
police are targeting the anti-corruption group.
People are saying why doesn't President Joko Widodo intervene on behalf of the anti-corruption force?
WIDIDO (through translator): Our commitment is still to eradicate corruption. Our commitment is still to handle corruption. And that can be
done if the system is built so that the existing institutions have got a good system. And with a good system, we will have a good government.
And then secondly, of course, it's law enforcement that is not only done by KPK, but also by the police, by the prosecutor's office, as well as by the
Supreme Court.
So I think all of these institutions have to cooperate and support each other to handle corruption, to eradicate corruption.
AMANPOUR: Everybody is looking, of course.
What will happen?
Will you continue with the inauguration of your chosen police chief, even though he's been accused of corruption?
WIDIDO (through translator): We have to also use the presumption of innocence principle. And, therefore, when he was appointed, we followed
the existing procedures. But because KPK later decided that there was a legal process, we did not inaugurate -- or we haven't inaugurated him.
AMANPOUR: So you've delayed it?
WIDIDO: Yes.
WIDODO (through translator): And everybody has to be mature in looking at it as a legal process. And the president is not allowed to intervene.
This is a legal process.
AMANPOUR: How bad is corruption in this country and how much does it weigh on your ability to have progress and to expand the economy and to generally
have rule of law?
WIDIDO: We need time, of course and, of course, with law enforcement, firm law enforcement, nothing else.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, you have, let's say, shocked people, certainly shocked your neighbors, with your zero tolerance policy on illegal fishing,
to the point that you have ordered the blowing up and sinking of illegal fishing boats in Indonesian waters.
Is this something you're going to continue with?
Are your neighbors not very concerned about this?
WIDIDO (through translator): Imagine this Christiane, every day, there are 5,000 to 7,000 ships in the Indonesian waters. And 90 percent of them are
doing illegal fishing, stealing fish in the Indonesian waters.
And therefore, I said no tolerance for any ships that steals fish. It sinks after it undergoes a legal process firm. And we are going to
consistently do this. We will not stop.
We want to protect the Indonesian waters from that kind of stealing. It's been going on too long and we have to stop.
AMANPOUR: And your mighty neighbor, China, you've already got some of their boats that you're threatening to sink.
WIDIDO (through translator): So far, we have not gotten any complaints from our neighbors because this is Indonesian waters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: He may be treated like a rock star wherever he goes here in Southeast Asia's biggest garment market, but when we come back, we're going
to talk AirAsia, executions and whether hardline Islam can ever make inroads here.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back, Mr. President.
We continue our conversation.
We are also here at a time when you are dealing with the crash of AirAsia. This is something that happened just two months after your inauguration.
What do you think happened?
WIDIDO (through translator): Until now, I don't know. It can be because of the weather. It can be because of other reasons. But we are not sure
about that now.
But the most important thing is that the evacuation was conducted quickly and we are continuing the evacuation.
AMANPOUR: By evacuation, you mean trying to retrieve the bodies and the bits of the plane. The fuselage you're still trying to raise. There's
been some trouble with that.
WIDIDO (through translator): Until now, it is still in the process because the weather has been really bad every day. And they have really strong
undercurrent. So they needed time.
AMANPOUR: One hundred and sixty-two people were killed. And many people complain that Indonesia's budget airline industry simply isn't regulated
properly, that this plane did not have the clearance to take that route.
What do you think needs to happen now to make sure this kind of situation doesn't happen again?
WIDIDO (through translator): What we want to fix is the administration system. We are going to fix this. This is a momentum to fix the
administrations related to the airline industry.
This is to deal with the system. But the amendment of systems and administration is not related to the airline accidents.
AMANPOUR: So you don't think the regulation is related?
WIDIDO (through translator): No, there is no relation, because accidents can be because of the weather, can be also because of human error. It can
be like that.
But until now, we don't know yet. We haven't concluded anything yet.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, many people look at your administration and you personally with a great deal of hope. You're a very different president
than this country has seen before.
Right now, though, you have reinstituted a policy that is causing outrage around the world, the execution by firing squad of people.
You've already got two countries, Brazil and the Netherlands, which have recalled ambassadors. Australia is threatening to do the same if you
execute an Australian here for drug offenses.
Why are you doing this?
WIDIDO (through translator): Imagine every day we have 50 people die because of narcotics, because of drugs. In one year, it's 18,000 people
who die because of narcotics. And we are not going to compromise for drug dealers. No compromise. No compromise.
The decision of death penalty is on the court. But they can ask for amnesty to the president.
But I tell you, there will be no amnesty for drug dealers.
AMANPOUR: So no relief for the Australian?
No?
AMANPOUR: Let's move on to Islam, because this is a huge, huge country, 250 million people; the vast majority, 87 percent, are Muslim.
You know what's happening around the world. You see the rise of Al Qaeda. You see the rise of ISIS. And you see how Muslims from other countries,
especially Europe, are going to fight for ISIS in Syria and Iraq.
Do you have that problem here?
How many Indonesians are fighting for ISIS?
WIDIDO (through translator): There are probably about 250 to 300 people who went to Syria.
But with the number of the biggest Muslim population in the world, 87 percent of Indonesians are Muslim; it means that the number is really
small, because we have a good experience in handling radicalism and extremism through not only security approach, but also cultural and
religious approach.
And in Indonesia, we have a big moderate Islamic organization, which is Muhammadiyah, Nahdlatul Ulama, N.U. . Those organizations are the ones who
teach moderate Islam, Islam that has got good tolerance towards any other religions.
And thanks be to God that in Indonesia, at present, these processes are going well.
AMANPOUR: Of course, in 2002, Indonesia had an attack by its Al Qaeda or its militant faction in Bali. Two hundred people were killed.
Are you afraid that this hardline Islam could creep into this moderate country again?
WIDIDO: In my opinion, if the process, as I said before, the cultural approach, the religious approach are conducted extensively, going into the
people, I am sure that anything related to radicalism, to extremism, I think will be much better, because security approach doesn't solve the
problem. It will not solve the problem.
AMANPOUR: What will you do to those fighters who have gone from here?
There's reports that you might revoke their citizenship, take away their passports.
What is the punishment for an Indonesian who's gone to fight for ISIS?
WIDIDO (through translator): We are working on a system in the airports so that the people who are going to Syria can be prevented. And we want
Indonesia to be an example of moderate Islam, Islam that has got tolerance, good Islam, and I am sure that we are able to do so.
In Indonesia, Islam and democracy can go together.
AMANPOUR: President Joko Widodo, thank you so much indeed for joining me.
WIDIDO: You're welcome. Thank you, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine taking a bicycle ride with the president, through crowded streets in the country's capital.
WIDODO: For me, it's very important to meet my people, to listen what they want.
AMANPOUR: And did you ever think that you would be president?
Did you ever dream that you would be in this position?
WIDODO: No, no, no.
AMANPOUR: No?
(CROSSTALK)
WIDODO: I -- when I was a boy, I sat there in the slum area --
AMANPOUR: You lived in the slum area, yes, when you were -- when you were little --
WIDODO: -- slum area, yes.
And we have a big country and I want my people prosperous.
AMANPOUR: To be prosperous?
WIDODO: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And you think you can do that?
WIDODO: Yes. It's not easy. But I want.
(Speaking foreign language).
AMANPOUR: What are they saying to you?
WIDODO: Good morning. Good morning.
AMANPOUR: As they would.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: All these people here who believe in you so much and you have said that what this country needs is a mental revolution.
What do you mean by that?
WIDODO: I work very hard and then reform our bureaucracy and then reform the plutocracy (ph), get better services to the people. This was what I
mean mental revolution.
AMANPOUR: And to believe that as Indonesia you can do it, that they can do it?
WIDODO: Yes, it's difficult but I want.
AMANPOUR: You want it?
Well, they certainly seem to believe in you.
What about trust, Mr. President? How important is trust?
WIDODO: Building the trust is very important because when we have the trust from the people, when we have the trust from the investors --
AMANPOUR: From foreign investors?
WIDODO: -- from foreign investors, we can introduce our program each year. It's not easy to have the trust from the people. So I talk to my
bureaucracy (ph), you must give better services to the people. You must work harder for the people.
(Speaking foreign language).
AMANPOUR: I don't think any of the generals ever got on a bicycle and cycled through Jakarta, did they?
WIDODO: So we have very high expectations.
AMANPOUR: Very high expectations, yes.
WIDODO: And if we feel that we cannot deliver my promises, of course they are not happy.
AMANPOUR: And then, boom, the approval goes down.
WIDODO: That's right.
AMANPOUR: You have had an incredible journey, haven't you?
Is that what makes you want to do all this for the people?
WIDODO: Yes, because like I told you, when I was a boy, when I was little, I stay in the slum area, in the riverbank.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Throughout his meteoric rise, the president has shown that he is not only a populist but an astute politician and he'll need every ounce of
both as he faces the challenges ahead.
And that's it for our special program from Indonesia. Remember you can always watch our show online and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank
you for watching and goodbye from Jakarta.
END
