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Amanpour

Jordanian FM on Prisoner Swap Offer by ISIS; Imagine a World

Aired January 28, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: for the first time, a prisoner exchange with ISIS may be on the cards. My exclusive interview

with Jordan's foreign minister.

And also ahead, the star and the director of an important critically acclaimed new film, "Selma."

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour and a first in the war with ISIS. Two governments that

backed the campaign against the terrorists appear poised to strike a deal with them. ISIS threatens to kill two hostages, one from Jordan and one

from Japan unless Jordan frees a would-be suicide bomber in prison since staging their country's 9/11 a decade ago.

Jordan says that it's willing to do the deal to get back its air force pilot, Maaz al-Kassasbeh after mass demonstrations and demands from his

father.

SAFI AL-KASSASBEH, FATHER OF CAPTIVE PILOT (through translator): I send a message to the government, starting with the top of the pyramid, His

Majesty the King, going down to the chief of staff and the intelligence and whoever has a hand to do whatever it takes to bring Maaz back no matter

what it takes.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And in Tokyo, the mother of Japanese hostage, Kenji Goto, also made an emotional appeal to her government.

JUNKO ISHIDO, MOTHER OF CAPTIVE JOURNALIST (through translator): Looking at his face, I think we are pressed for time. His eyes are telling the

danger that is imminent. His face is tense.

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AMANPOUR: And if a trade does in fact happen, will it embolden ISIS or is the terrorist organization itself under pressure?

Joining me now by phone is the Jordanian foreign minister, Nasser Judeh. It is his first interview since this negotiation has been made public.

Foreign Minister Nasser Judah, welcome to the program.

NASSER JUDEH, JORDANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Can you give me the facts as they stand right now?

Have you had any kind of conclusive conversation with these ISIS people and proof of life of your pilot?

JUDEH: Well, it's difficult to divulge all the details and perhaps some of the negotiation that's been taking place for weeks, actually, is not

direct, but perhaps through indirect channels, as is always the case when it comes to situations and like that.

Families, whether the family of our praised fighter pilot, Maaz al- Kassasbeh, or the family of the Japanese hostage, have every right to feel frustrated and to appeal with much passion. But we are way ahead.

In fact, if I can begin to describe to you that that has been conducted on our part, at least, since the moment that that pilot was down, it's beyond

description. The time and the effort spent searching for him and trying to get the details on his well-being and whereabouts. Again, like I said,

this is 24/7 operation here by all the agencies of the state.

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JUDEH (voice-over): Now the facts as of the last 24 hours -- and I say 24 hours because yesterday we had this release of the video, whereby the

Japanese hostage appeared, carrying a photograph of our pilot and saying that unless al-Rishawi and that would-be terrorist that you referred to in

your report was released, both he, the Japanese captive, and the pilot would be killed.

Now the deadline has passed and I don't want to pass judgment on whether this is encouraging news or not. But we have said that publicly that we

are willing to exchange this woman for the release of our pilot. But we, in terms of proof of life, we've sent them direct messages and we said that

again publicly and asking for proof of life over the last period. But we haven't got them.

AMANPOUR: So what happens next?

And is the Japanese hostage, Kenji Goto, part of this deal?

JUDEH: Yes, of course, but as you know, our priorities is our pilot. But we are cooperating very, very closely with our Japanese friends and allies.

It is ISIS, Daish, that has tied the fate of this, of the two captors there together and they are -- they're the ones who have said the lives of the

pilot and the Japanese captive in exchange for this woman.

Let me just say, Christiane, that when it comes to Rishawi and you're quite right in referring to our 9/11 -- it was 9th of November, 2005, now she was

part of a cell of four people who conducted Amman hotel bombings when 60 innocent Jordanian civilians gave their lives. She actually pulled the

trigger, but the explosive belt didn't detonate.

So although most Jordanians would like to see her locked up for the rest of her life, she didn't actually commit any murders herself. She was part of

a cell and she certainly was intending to kill people. But at the end of the day, like any country -- and we've seen prisoner exchanges by so many

countries in this region and beyond -- our priorities is to saving our pilot and getting him safe home.

AMANPOUR: Well, you say prisoner exchange and so are the people calling it this.

But it is a first, a government agreeing to demand by a terrorist organization.

Are you not concerned that this will embolden ISIS and just encourage ISIS to take more of your pilots or more journalists or more whoever may be in

their line of fire?

JUDEH: Well let me very clear, Christiane. When I say prisoner exchange, I'm certainly not equating the life of our pilot with this woman who is in

prison for having intended to kill innocent Jordanian civilians. I'm just calling it technically a prison exchange, because technically, that's what

it is.

But again, let me say and make no mistake, we are committed when it comes to fighting extremism and terrorism and this doesn't change our resolve one

single iota.

AMANPOUR: So you continue to take part in these -- in the military coalition against ISIS?

JUDEH: Well, this is not a transitory thing. This is something that depends (ph) on our very, very strong and firm belief that terrorism and

extremism have nothing to do with noble religion, nor with its essence and known compassion (ph).

AMANPOUR: Now back to these negotiations, you say the deadline has passed.

So what are you doing now?

What happens next?

JUDEH: Well, again, there are indirect messages going back and forth. The deadline, there was this afternoon; it's been a few hours since, we haven't

had anything. And we have stated publicly that in exchange for the safe return of our pilot, we will release, if that's what they want, we're

willing to release this woman.

AMANPOUR: What is your analysis at this point, at this moment of ISIS' strength on the ground?

JUDEH: Well, nobody can deny that they're in control of vast territories. They have to access to funds and weaponry. But at the end of the day,

they're renegade and they don't represent the true essence of our religion, like I said, and they distort this image and hide behind it.

Now but that's another discussion altogether. We have a situation, and now we have to deal with it.

AMANPOUR: Well, in this situation, then, how much pressure has the father, have the demonstrations in Amman and around Jordan put on the king, put on

you, the government, to actually make this trade?

Could you really tolerate seeing a Jordanian executed on television?

JUDEH: This is a war, Christiane, and we have, in any war, you have good days and bad days. A father is a father; a mother is a mother. Like I

said, they have every right to feel the pain and the anguish and to express their anger sometime. But let me remind you what I said earlier in this

conversation, that our efforts to release a pilot, a fighter pilot, our brave fighter pilot began weeks ago, not out of pressure but out of

commitment and conviction.

AMANPOUR: On that note, Foreign Minister Nasser Judeh, thank you very much for joining us.

And of course we're going to be following this story.

And when we come back, the fight for civil rights in the United States receives fitting tribute in the Oscar nominated film, "Selma." I talked to

the director and star about Martin Luther King's lessons for today.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Now at a time when the United States of America is doing a lot of soul- searching about the continuing issue of racism, comes an electrifying new film and it's an Oscar contender.

"Selma" tells the story of Martin Luther King's struggle to get black Americans the right to vote 50 years ago.

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AMANPOUR: Now extraordinarily, it is the first-ever Hollywood blockbuster about one of America's greatest leaders and it's been boldly undertaken by

my next guest, director Ava DuVernay and the British actor David Oyelowo, who plays Dr. King. It opens here and around the world next week.

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AMANPOUR: David, Ava, welcome to the program.

DAVID OYELOWO, ACTOR: Thank you.

AVA MARIE DUVERNAY, FILMMAKER: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: We're in London, so I have to first ask you, Ava, all the main actors in this quintessentially American drama are British.

DUVERNAY: You know, things just happen.

(LAUGHTER)

DUVERNAY: I apologize to my American friends.

No, you know what, as an actor, just speaking the part that matches you and as a director you're seeing an actor that fits that part. These actors are

exquisite and David was the only choice for Dr. King and so it is.

AMANPOUR: So David, how did you absorb Martin Luther King? You didn't grow up with Martin Luther King. It wasn't part of your consciousness, was

it?

OYELOWO: No. I mean, I knew who he was obviously. I knew his significance. But as you say, being British, he wasn't part of my cultural

upbringing. And I think actually that was a benefit to me, also of benefit to me was the fact that it took a long time between me reading it for the

first time, knowing that in my spirit that I was going to do this before I die and it taking seven years before it actually came to fruition.

So I had several years of just living in America, doing other films, like "Lincoln," "The Help," "Red Tails," "The Butler," all of which were

educational for me in terms of what it is to be African American in the 20th century. And then as I say, for me personally being British meant

that I didn't come at him as an icon, as a historical figure.

Who's the man, you know. I share his faith in terms of being a Christian and so it was like those are the things that interested me.

AMANPOUR: We're just going to play a clip for our viewers to show one of the most powerful parts of the film, where you are addressing a

congregation in church and you are calling for the vote.

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AMANPOUR: You use the word "vote" and not "ballot," which Dr. King used in his speech.

Explain to me the real difficulties of using the real words because of all the litigation and copyright from his family.

DUVERNAY: Well, we're fortunate that the time that we chronicle in Selma from January 1965 to March 1965 is not when Dr. King made his "I have a

dream" speech. So in terms of the chronology of our picture, we were safe in not having to deal with that speech.

But there were other speeches that he made publicly during that time that we were not allowed to use because the rights to those speeches have been

granted by his estate to another filmmaker, not us.

And so --

AMANPOUR: That would be Steven Spielberg.

DUVERNAY: That would be Mr. Spielberg, yes. We --

(CROSSTALK)

DUVERNAY: -- who's doing a few good things.

And so yes, we put our ideas to work in the film. We really had to try to imbue the speeches with a sense of what King meant, his intention, but not

use the actual words.

AMANPOUR: And regarding the vote, which was what this is all about, the struggle to get the vote for American blacks, there is a very powerful

scene that you created with Oprah Winfrey playing Annie Lee Cooper and she goes to try to register. And the man there in the court asks her a lot of

really difficult questions and she answers each one until he asks her the cruelest question, name all the county judges.

What was the impact on you of that moment?

OYELOWO: Well, for me, it's just the impact is actually having Oprah Winfrey play that role. When you think of who she is, what she represents

and what she has achieved, the notion that only 50 years, almost to the day now, she could have been prevented from registering to vote is unthinkable.

But it's in such living memory. If she was alive when that actually was happening to people down in the South, the Voting Rights Act is currently

in the presence of being dismantled due to the notion that the country has changed enough that we no longer need the voting process policed by the

federal government.

But I think anyone who sees the very real parallels between Selma and Ferguson, yes, there have been incredible strides by way of improvement but

there are still huge issues that we're facing and those parallels are indicative of that fact.

So you know, for me, I'm just glad that this film is coming out at a time when young people are engaging with social action and they may walk away

with a full sense that this is new.

No. It's -- this happened before and it was dealt with effectively before with leadership, with strategy, which is something I think also people

don't associate directly with the civil rights movement and with very clear results, which, again, is depicted in the film.

AMANPOUR: And Ava, for you the Voting Rights Act, the struggle is personal.

DUVERNAY: Yes. My father's from Lowndes County, Alabama, that's the county that sits right between Selma and Montgomery. So in order for the

protests to complete their march from Selma to Montgomery, which is a five- day march, they had to walk through Lowndes County, Alabama, and at one point, my father at 11 years old watched the protesters pass.

And so that is really much a part of my family legacy, the struggling for voting rights in the Deep South, a struggle for personhood, the struggle

for representation and inclusion. So it hit home and was my entry point as a filmmaker into the material.

AMANPOUR: Is it why you wanted to do it?

DUVERNAY: It's one of the big reasons why, but then also, I mean, Dr. King. I mean, as an African American, Dr. King looms large in my

grandmother's home there's a picture of Jesus and Dr. King at equal heights on the wall. And so it's -- as a filmmaker to present -- be presented with

the opportunity to make the first film with Dr. King at the center ever released in theaters by a major studio, was a huge challenge. I felt a

huge responsibility and it was an honor.

AMANPOUR: The film obviously is nominated for an Oscar. There's been a lot of controversy about why you didn't get nominated, why you didn't get

nominated.

What can you say about that?

DUVERNAY: You know, I didn't feel sadness or bitterness for myself because I knew and I'd been telling people for a while that I didn't think it was

going to happen for me. I'm not very well known in the directors' branch. I'm very new to it.

So I know it's a lot about interpersonal relationships in addition to the film. So I did not think that I had much of a chance. In fact, I don't

know anyone.

David not being included, because I know for a fact it's one of the best performances of the year, I know what it took to get the performance to

where it was and what he gave. It hurt my feelings, I'll admit to you. But you know, in the end, we were nominated in some categories and not

nominated in others. We are one of the very few films to come out last year that's nominated for Best Picture. And that's a huge, huge

accomplishment for everyone who worked on this picture.

OYELOWO: At the end of the day, our film is officially the best reviewed film of last year -- officially. You know, we're making tens of millions

of dollars at the box office. I got to play Dr. King, the first person to do it in a film where he's central, the only human being to have a holiday

named after him in the 20th century.

We did our bit.

AMANPOUR: Even some of the critics say that it's a great film.

However, as you know, there are criticisms, particularly by people who knew Lyndon Johnson very well; people who are historians and biographers. And

they say you took real creative license in, for instance, suggesting that it was LBJ who nodded and winked or persuaded the FBI director to send the

sex tape to Coretta Scott King.

They say it simply didn't happen.

Why did you feel the need to do that?

Would you have done something different?

DUVERNAY: I would not change a frame of the film. It's what I believe. It's what I'm interested in. It poses the questions that I have. Everyone

sees history through their own lens. To suggest that the President of the United States was not aware of the actions of the FBI director to Hoover

reported -- so Hoover reported to Johnson. Johnson reauthorized COINTELPRO. It was authorized under Kennedy. It was authorized under

Johnson. It was authorized under Nixon.

So the idea that the president knew nothing about it just doesn't sit right with me.

AMANPOUR: Not knew nothing about it but --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- actually directed it.

DUVERNAY: That's what's been suggested, though, that he knew nothing about it. That's what's been writing in several op-eds. We, in the film, do not

show that he suggested. We in the film show that he has been speaking with Hoover, that Hoover has suggested that there was surveillance underway. If

folks watch closely and disregard the ideas of custodians of a certain legacy, and just watch what has been presented, they'll find that what's

being said about the film is not actually what the film does. So I would invite people to sit, to check it out and interrogate history for

themselves.

AMANPOUR: And finally, what is next for you both?

We hear projects bubbling, something about Hurricane Katrina?

DUVERNAY: Yes, we're reteaming to explore another part of American history that we feel is ripe and rich with the complexity and nuance about race,

about culture, nothing about this film that's happened has deterred us from continuing to portray the truth as we feel it and we know it and we believe

it.

I think there was a lot of flap made yesterday about us not being dampened by the controversies. All those things are manufactured to me. All of

things are around rehabilitation of a legacy that has nothing to do with what the film was about. And if it's done anything, it's radicalized me

even more. And so we're going to get a film about Katrina next.

What do you think?

OYELOWO: I think that would be a good thing.

DUVERNAY: Let's do it.

OYELOWO: Do it.

DUVERNAY: And let's see what they think about that.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Throwing down the gauntlet. Ava, David, thank you very much indeed.

DUVERNAY: Thank you.

OYELOWO: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And again, "Selma" opening here in the U.K. and around Europe next week.

And coming up after a break, we imagine a world that's seen through the eyes of Syria's lost children, the daily life of Lebanon's refugees through

the lens of the most vulnerable -- after this.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we return to the devastating war in Syria, now well into its fourth year. Imagine a world through the eyes of Syrian

refugees, more than 3 million have fled the war at home and more than a million are currently in the camps in Lebanon. About half of them are

children, struggling against harsh conditions in a foreign land, deprived of so much, where fun is probably the rarest resource.

But a joint project by Lebanese NGO Zakira and UNICEF has given some of the children in those refugee camps just that, a bit of fun.

By giving 500 of them disposable cameras and telling them to take pictures of whatever took their fancy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: One child's attempt to bring just a little happiness.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always watch our whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

END